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MARKVF
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Joined: 3/12/2005
Msg: 126 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/24/2005 5:47:04 AM | cstech: I think many older Catholics think that's what Vatican II brewed up..."Same great Presence...1/3 less liturgy". You know its funny, I love the liturgy in English, but when Ave Maria or a chant for example is done in Latin, it almost raises the hair on my arms...its hauntingly beautiful and spiritual. "Latina lingua Corpi Christi in terram est." or something like that...its been 26 years since my last Latin class. (Latin is the language of the Body of Christ on earth). As we talk about the Bible, I find it interesting that the Catholic Church typically recommends using several translations in a Bible Study (hey folks we DO have those!) to help get a fuller understanding. I use a New American, a Good News, a Revised Standard, and my favorite, a Jerusalem Bible. If you've never seen one, I'd suggest you check it out! In that vein, I hope people realize just how important a good translation really is. For example, in John 8:58 Jesus claims "Godship" by saying "before Abraham ever was, I Am". The Living Translation, a very popular choice nowdays misses that whole claim by reading "I existed before Abraham was even born" With no "I Am" the verse loses its meaning entirely.
never: I don't think its "weird" at all that your answers led you "out of there". They call it a "belief" not a "know". Different people at different times seek different answers to different questions. You went, or were led, to where you need to be as was I. God loves us both, and if we are serving him to the best of our abilities at the place where we believe we should be, then I think that's great! The key is to be serving him and to make sure we are where we are for the right reasons. Those are questions that only we can answer for ourselves. I have found that quite a few "cradle Catholics" seem to miss the spirituality of the faith and often do turn elsewhere. I don't know why, but I'm guessing that all the liturgy and ritual is rather overwhelming to a child, and it eventually becomes rote as that is what is "drilled" into your head everyday. As a "convert", that is all secondary to the spirit I found there, so I've come to it from a different perspective. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/24/2005 8:21:40 AM | | Because I find religion unfounded. Its got no more power in my eyes than any other stories of gods. I also don't mind to debate about it at all because of its diversities. Its always got strong emotion either way. Its just something I do to kill a couple of hours before I begin to do my work (painting). If anyone religious seen some of my work in progresses they would faint, and no I won't say whats in my works till the series is finished (couple weeks or so) but it involes stuff thats is not for the faint of heart. Also good to see the variations in how people think that are religious and also in those (like myself) who are not. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/24/2005 9:19:18 AM | >
Sorry to contradict you on this point, however the Greek Orthodox Church, actually compiled the New Testament. Which was originally written in Greek (not Latin) and made the first translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek.
Roman Catholic and Orthodox were the same for the first 1000 years after Jesus. Then in 1054 the Roman Catholic Church separated from the original Orthodox Church, changed the Creed and their Pope proclaimed himself the head of the Church. Meanwhile, the Orthodox Church is still the same as it was 2000 years ago, the creed is the same, the liturgy is the same, no books have been dropped from the original New Testament, and there is still no heirarchy in the church, where any one man is closer to God than any other.
~Nichelle | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/24/2005 9:28:25 AM | >
Actually if you wish to translate the original Greek...not the Greek into Latin into English you will come up with "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"
~Nichelle | |
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cstech
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Joined: 5/6/2005
Msg: 130 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/24/2005 10:33:23 AM | neverwalkrun:
Yerrse but it could be spoken in a church in the hearers language..gee ya slow.. do I have to piont out every dot and tittle maybe ya need to name yoself cslowtech
Yesterday I thought you might be an idiot, now I'm 99% sure you are.
...the bible in Latin was not accessible to the comman man in europe until it was translated into other languages probably starting with the invention of the printing press...
Yep, I saw 'the bible' (a book) in there, and 'printing press'. That makes it pretty clear you're talking about the written text. However, that's ok, what can one expect from someone that can't spell 'yes', 'point', 'title', or 'yourself', all in the same run on sentence with a few made up words thrown in for good measure.
But, to answer your new question, the bible was written and spoken in all common languages with sufficient structure including Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and several others. Books were very expensive and time consuming to produce, and on top of that the church was very wary about 'watering down' the meaning of the words by translating them into different languages. They presumed that to do so would take away from the holiness of the texts and until the Reformation threw that idea out the window it was not done.
enviroconscious: Good points about the Orthodox. I considered Orthodox myself but there were a few things I didn't agree with (at least with the ones around here), one of which was the (at least outwardly) 'closed society' and lack of cheerfulness of the Orthodox. I don't know if they're like that everywhere, but I've seen that here. | |
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MARKVF
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Joined: 3/12/2005
Msg: 131 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/24/2005 10:46:59 AM | enviroconscious: While you will get a spirited interconfessional debate over who split from whom, there is no doubt that Christianity bloodline runs through these two churches, and especially their shared history. That is why continued dialogue betweenthem is so important. They hold so much truth and guard so much antiquity that all other Christian denominations owe their very existence to the Church Fathers (oops, there's that word ) who toiled during that first millenium.
Also thanks for the Greek to English: You are correct in typing I AM as all caps. That's not a translational oops, but a "my bad" after working 12 hours. I hope you see my point however. Removing the I AM takes that verse's meaning from divine to almost inconsequential. As we make translations of translations of translations, we lose so much original meaning. That verse being one that "jumps out at me" because it is so blantantly "loose". I fear the same thing happens with denominations. As we move further from Christianity's roots we lose more of its message and meaning. Churches split from churches that split from churches, and this is usually not because of something legitimately new but because someone wants to deny or dilute a too hard truth. | |
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MARKVF
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Joined: 3/12/2005
Msg: 133 | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/25/2005 3:06:52 PM | [While you will get a spirited interconfessional debate over who split from whom, there is no doubt that Christianity bloodline runs through these two churches, and especially their shared history. That is why continued dialogue betweenthem is so important. They hold so much truth and guard so much antiquity that all other Christian denominations owe their very existence to the Church Fathers (oops, there's that word ) who toiled during that first millenium.]
I fully agree with almost all you have said, our faiths are very close and uphold many of the same convictions lost by later schisms of other Christian faiths. And as such the Orthodox and Catholic faiths share an almost kindred bond with each other.
I however don't think that there is any question that the Orthodox Church is very nearly the same as the early Church while the Roman Catholic Church has changed in small but very significant ways. I certainly don't mean to question the reasons or validity of these changes but historical evidence and documentation from the early Church show this to be so. The major change being the Great Schism of 1054 when the Pope of Rome broke away from the four other Apostolic Patriarchates (Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople and Jerusalem), changed the original Creed of the Church and created a hierarchy of which he was the head.
[I hope you see my point however. Removing the I AM takes that verse's meaning from divine to almost inconsequential. As we make translations of translations of translations, we lose so much original meaning.]
That is exactly why I am studying the original Greek...but you are correct in that the Latin version and the Greek version hold much of the same substance, where later translations (and translations of translations) have minimized and changed the meanings of that as well many other portions of the Bible.
I personally feel that EVERY Christian and EVERY Christian faith holds at least a portion of the Truth, as does Orthodox Judaism for that matter although their portion is confined to the Old Testament. I believe true faith comes from inside oneself and we all use the tools we are given to develop it. However, God wants us all divided...for in the words of Jesus:
"Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. (Luke 12:51)
And so we must learn to accept our divisions and differences of belief with tolerance, respect and understanding, for to do otherwise would be.....well, unchristian. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/25/2005 3:10:44 PM | In the early years (the first century) "The Way" (the name original given to the followers of Jesus) met in peoples homes much like is done in China today. As the following grew the need to have larger places to gather became appearent. In order to deal with the problems within the various groups Paul (Saul) wrote leaders (called the epistles) to the various groups of people, this was done to settle disputes and bring some kind of order to the gatherings.
The early church did well until The Roman Emperor Constantine made the edict that made Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire.
Taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia
"A vision had assured him (Constantine) that he should conquer in the sign of the Christ, and his warriors carried Christ's monogram on their shields, though the majority of them were pagans. The opposing forces met near the bridge over the Tiber called the Milvian Bridge, and here Maxentius' troops suffered a complete defeat, the tyrant himself losing his life in the Tiber (28 October, 312). Of his gratitude to the God of the Christians the victor immediately gave convincing proof; the Christian worship was henceforth tolerated throughout the empire (Edict of Milan, early in 313)".
In order to expand it's revenue and land holdings the Roman church began to be "seeker sensitive" (using a modern terminology). The Roman church became known as the "universal church" (hence the name Catholic) by adapting to the existing beliefs of the people of other "pagan" religions. As the "Universal Church" the Roman church embraced elements of Baal and Istar worship as well as the polytheistic beliefs of the Roman's themselves.
These practices, thinly veiled in the costume of christianity, are still the norm.
The various "Patron Saint's" are nothing more than the Roman gods in disguise.
The elevation of Mary, to divinty status comes directly from Baal worship. This is evidenced by the declaration of Pope Urban the II which moved the sabbath day of worship from the 7th day of the week (the day God rested) to the 1st day of the week, Sunday (the Sun's or Baal's day) to honor Mary "Queen of Heaven".
The self declared "Queen of Heaven" was none other than Ishtar (pronounced easter) whose husband Nimrod (yes, the same Nimrod that built the tower of babel) that was elevated to god hood as Baal the Sun god by his wife This was only the beginning ... established "Holy" days were changed as well.
The celebration of "Easter" has nothing to do with the death and resurrection of Jesus at all.
Jesus, as history (and the Bible) tells us, was executed on the 5th day 8 day Jewish passover celebration and was resurrected at its conclusion. Passover always begins on the 14th day of Nissan of the Jewish calender.
The dates of the "Easter " (Ishtar) celebration are established according to the dictates of Ishtar to commorate the death of her son Tammaz (whom she married after the death of her husband Nimrod (Baal)). She declared that there would be 40 days of mourning (lent) and that a feast would be held on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox. Which is how Easter's date is still determined to this day.
There are so many details regarding the celebration of Easter that come directly from Baal worship that it would take several pages to cover them all.
The list goes on ... Halloween (All hallo's eve) equates to the Day of the Dead ... Christmas was moved to December 25 ... According to the biblical description Jesus was in all probability, born in the spring, the time of lambing, when the shepards would have been in the fields protecting the sheep.
Many of the original "Holy Days" are still practiced by the Orthodox Church which does not recognize the changes that the Roman church made.
We are to be known because of our love for one another.. We are not to "slam" other believers, regardless of which christian denomination they adhere to. Remember that some like French Vanilla while others like Chocolate Creme ... worship style is a preference not a doctrine
Jesus said that "our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities in high places". Please let us remember that Jesus came to bind up the broken hearted and set the captives free ... let's quit bcikering among ourselves and be about the Father's business ...
In His Grip
oneofdadskids | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/25/2005 8:51:36 PM | Enviro..."there is no doubt that Christianity bloodline runs through these two churches, and especially their shared history."
The blood might run through and because of these two..the kingdom of god is a spiritual one..And the Church is made up of people, not organisations, hierachy or otherwise...Christs people may be in those edifices, but that does not make that edifice christian...my undestanding is that what we call church is ecclesia, or called out ones or a place where they get together
I have to agree with Bro one of dads on what his has written. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/26/2005 8:45:33 AM |
Enviro..."there is no doubt that Christianity bloodline runs through these two churches, and especially their shared history."
Harry,
The above quote is not something I said, but something I too had quoted from another poster.
my undestanding is that what we call church is ecclesia, or called out ones or a place where they get together
Yes, ecclesia literally means "called out people" in Greek. It is also understood to mean "assembly of the people of God" or "community of believers". | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/27/2005 8:31:12 AM | everywhere you go you see religions fighting religions wanting you to join their congregations. the religions of today are becomming cults. Satans masterpiece. Its not just the catholics. the only place that you are going to get accurate knowledge is the bible, and maybe the torah. It says in the bible that the churches are a dead issue. God did not create religion, people did In these times the devil is out to get us more than ever with all this fake doctrine, he trys to trick us, to follow his path, and to preach his false doctrine, so if you are ever unsure of anything regarding religion look to the bible for the accurate answer. the bible is 100% correct. there are no errors in the bible, the reasoning behind the rumors that the bible has errors was made up a long time ago by the moslems in order to discredit the bible and bring the koran into exsistence. a book that was wrote 600 years after the holy bible.
thank you and may God bless
George | |
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MARKVF
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Joined: 3/12/2005
Msg: 141 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/27/2005 9:27:27 AM | enviro: I agree completely that every facet of the Christian Faith holds at least a portion of the truth; a point also echoed within the Catholic Cathecism. I believe all these divisions were (and are) vitally important in spreading the Word throughout the world as each faction reaches a niche another may not. However I do believe that at some point we must all come back together and be in agreement on the basic "orthodoxy" of Christianity. Whether we name ourselves one or not, we must grow together not apart. See Christ's words in John 17:20-26. We must in the meantime be careful not to tear each other down as we so often do (James 4:1-12, I Peter 3:8-17). I read a poem that describes our current state pretty well:
Dear God in Heaven, what have we done?
Are we a people of faith or human agenda?
Intolerance, ignorance from our pulpits ring:
"We're right 'cause they're wrong!": that's the modern day creed.
Islam our enemy; look what they've done:
Our towers, the Cole: a religion of hate.
Horrified Christians scream, "An eye for an eye!"
The Muslim could answer, "Remember the Crusades?"
"We don't worship Mary; the Pope leads a cult."
"Blessed are you among women..."
"Simon Peter, upon this rock..."
Your Word, so soothing;
At least the verses we choose.
The rest never mentioned; they might prove us wrong.
We promise health, prosperity, reward;
Who to love, what to hate: all in a new book.
Yours for free, and a donation of course.
Jesus Christ's message: was it really so hard?
Man's used it for war, oppression, control.
How did this happen?
He only said, "LOVE!" | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/29/2005 4:17:28 AM | Lemme jump in here.
Many of today's so-called "Christians" are fundamentalist in nature, and do not wish to have a sectarian label put upon them, like the Baptists and others. Many (but certainly not all) fundamentalist brands of Christianity are anti-Catholic, for a variety of reasons. Some of these reasons are genuinely doctrinal, even among Catholics themselves, and others, having arisen from a historical monarch's sexual issues, are close to being resolved. Yes, lilbabe, Catholics are Christians, they just don't try to monopolize the term "Christian" the way that many sects and for-profit businesses do here in the USA.
In my experience as a cradle-Catholic who attended a Protestant university and has played in church groups of various denominations for fun & profit, most of the anti-Catholic hatred out there is based on fear, although the recent coming-to-light of the legacy of sexual scandal within the Church is not helping matters at all. We can look at the recent changing in the papal office due to death as a sign of where the Church is in terms of respect around the globe. The Pope as a figure is revered. if not at least respected by non-Catholics as an altruistic man who calls us in the name of Jesus Christ to earthly holiness; who tries to lead by example. Certainly the recently departed John Paul II raised the bar in many ways, but the hard-line conservativism that has remained within Church leadership is a disappointment to many; one which may eventually challenge the Church someday. Look at Latin America. Fundamentalist efforts there are making inroads into an area that was 97% Catholic. When a Latin American wasn't elected to the papacy, I perceived the beginnings of greater unrest and dissent. What harvest will they yield for Rome?
As for my own sense of faith and spiritual identity, I am not a practicing Catholic. The moral leaf is not that far from the tree, save for perhaps those issues that a majority of American Catholics are famous for disagreeing with Rome on. I believe that there are threads of spiritual truth to be found in common among all of the great world religions; it is the use of religious variation politically that has caused much of humanity's suffering, but that's for another thread here. Spiritual, yes; in-touch, yes; religious, no.
OK, off the soap box. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/29/2005 10:58:23 AM |
I see many people slapping Christianity because their worship system of celebrating the one true G-d deals in Pagan rituals and so they try and disproove the work of Yeshuah,but Yeshuah had nothing to do with the winter Solstice or Ishtar{Easter}.
I agree. The original "Easter" services had nothing to do with Pagan traditions, and in the Orthodox Church this is still true. The name for Easter in Greek is Pascha which means Passover. Other groups split off from the Orthodox and changed the name, the dates and even the services and traditions surrounding this Holy Week. This is when the Pagan influence was brought in, in what was I believe an effort to attract new converts. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/29/2005 12:19:39 PM |
It is a disgusting sin to worship idols see Exod 20.3-5,Deut5.7-9
I know of no Christian Faith which worships idols, although many like to claim that the Catholics and Orthodox do so. Those that claim this are actually bearing false witness upon a neighbor, since we absolutely do not do this.
What we do do is venerate icons as symbols. Consider the difference for a moment... If you kiss a photo of your mother are you worshiping a piece of photograph paper? or are you expressing your love for your mother?
I think St John of Damascus wrote it best. "I do not worship matter, but Him who took on matter for the sake of my salvation. "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Background~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In the year 787 AD the Church established the doctrine concerning the proper veneration of icons which was accepted by the entire Christian world East and West. Although I suppose you could choose to think that the Church is fallible, and capable of error; however this would be a very interesting stance for any Christian to take, since it would render your Bible worthless.
This is because the very same Orthodox Church that decided the proper doctrine regarding icons, also decided which books constituted Holy Scripture from the many "Gospels" and other books of the time which claimed to be apostolic scripture. She also was the first Church to translate the Old Testament out of Hebrew in the form of the Septugaint.
So if you believe the Orthodox Church is capable of error, you must then take into account the possibility she also erred compiling and translating the Bible. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/29/2005 3:25:30 PM | | Not going to read this whole thread, but here's what I think. Catholics believe they are baptized as a baby, which is completely against the bible. theres only one way to be saved. You have to repent of your sins. Babies can't do this. So there are millions of catholics who believe they are saved, given false hope. Its basically a cult. Thats the main reason. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/29/2005 7:51:49 PM | theres only one way to be saved. You have to repent of your sins.
People sin after being baptised as well, this is why there is the Sacrament of Confession so sins can continue to be repented.
Catholics believe they are baptized as a baby, which is completely against the bible.
Where EXACTLY in the Bible does it forbid the baptism of infants? I will save you the trouble of looking....it doesn't. However it does say this....
Then they also brought INFANTS to Him that He might touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
Then Jesus called them to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God." (Luke 18:15-16)
You might also note that in many circumstances throughout the Bible entire households were baptised, NOT entire households except for the children.
Additionally, when Old Testament Rituals are replaced by Christ with the Sacraments, baptism takes the place of circumcision.
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12.)
Infant baptism has also been passed down through the Traditions of the Church from its very founding. And we are told by the Bible to follow the oral as well as the written traditions.
So now that you can see their position has clear support in the Bible, I hope that you will apologize to our Catholic friends for attacking their faith. Your beliefs might be different than their's and that is fine, no one is telling you to change them. However, in my opinion, God gave us all the free will to choose our beliefs, and any judgement of our choices is His job. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/29/2005 8:36:58 PM |
i was babtiaed as a child and I am still in contradiction of being so now.
Infant baptism really doesn't hurt, you still posess the free will to choose whatever beliefs you wish. I have never been baptised, and was in fact raised athiest...so I in turn spent the past 29 years searching for what I was missing.
[quote I never said anything against your church that is what has happened.
But do you know the three reasons why Jesus came to the earth?
I wasn't responding to your post Free, but to Warner's. And I would love to hear what you believe are the three reasons Jesus came to Earth.  | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/30/2005 8:17:33 AM | | Also if it is considered evil by some to drip water over the forehead of an infant than we are all in trouble if we shower daily....or swim, or even get stuck in the rain... | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/30/2005 10:58:14 AM | | I won't ever believe in something that has the biggest reputation for killing. Alot of ruthless slaughter still takes place in the name of it and that to me is lower than poo. | |
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