GEOSC
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Joined: 7/11/2007
Msg: 48 | |
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GEOSC
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Joined: 7/11/2007
Msg: 49 | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 9/22/2007 6:37:46 PM | | Awww. That's sweet Geo. I was starting my senior year in high school. A much different battle of equalities then . . . a battle for equality against my parents. Now that's a tough one. | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 9/22/2007 7:19:20 PM | This question of equality has interested me for a long time. What I've learned is that parity is not necessary for relationships to work.
I don't accept the authority of some mystical other that teaches us that we are all equal and that we are all entitled to certain rights, privileges, and access to power regardless of our abilities and innate effectiveness. In many relationships it is assumed that both parties are entitled to equal amounts of legislative, executive and judicial power and that is exercised even if the parties are not balanced in their power, thus setting the standards of the relationship to the lowest common denominator. If I know nothing about economics, for instance, and am given an equal vote in how to manage wealth I will be driven by visceral and instinctive energy which can hinder the efficacy of the executive power of someone who may be able to overcome the fear that is present in a visceral response and take a calculated risk.
When one moves into a different type of thinking, one of specialization rather than global equality, the power is then divided as it is best exercised. This may or may not come out equal on a bottom line, but more importantly what I've found is that the personalities of the people involved in this type of relationship are accounted for. If my personality is more at ease with someone else providing executive power but I am the expert in the area of health and welfare, then I can present my expert testimony and leave the execution and judicial decision to the person in the system more comfortable with the role of "make it so." In other words, I create legislation and he can either execute that legislation or send it back for revision and further development.
In an "equal" system I am queen of my own territory and as such have a tendency to create a very small world full of ritual and habit and known territories and defend that with my entitlement to autonomy. In my experience relinquishing that autonomy makes my world chaotic and unwieldy but it also allows me to have a much richer experience of being human. What I provide for him is extra hands, feet, heart and mind so that his derring do is able to extend to arenas he didn't even know existed until I came along.
I am static but varied. I'm attracted to men who are dynamic but singular in purpose.
We don't have to be equal in all regards to make a good team. | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 9/24/2007 8:51:59 AM | Any woman who claims to want equality had better be willing to specify which privileges she is willing to give up.
It's not that "American women are very indecisive" (OP) but that they're constantly trying to finagle a gambit where they get to have it both ways, even if those are mutually exclusive. | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 9/24/2007 9:39:38 AM | but that they're constantly trying to finagle a gambit where they get to have it both ways, even if those are mutually exclusive.
So who has to finagle? I say get it while you can! Thank you Janis...!
Young women don't you dare settle for equal ...finagle for the best deal!
<-- 49 and still getting more than my fair share | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 9/24/2007 10:43:36 AM | One day they want to be like men. They want the jobs, the pay, the responsibility and all things equal to a man. Then in the same day, they want a man to be totally chivalrous, pay for dates and treat them like a princess.
What the heck does chivalry have to do with equality?
Are you saying men should only be honorable, considerate, courteous and respectful toward needy women? So your theory is (and please correct me if I’m wrong) if a woman happens to have achieved a certain level of success on her own, then she should expect less from her relationships than one who is unable to tie her shoes? Apparently, I have way more questions than answers at this point, but I’m very anxious to get to the bottom of this before I blow another dime unnecessarily.
Any woman who claims to want equality had better be willing to specify which privileges she is willing to give up.
I’m very interested to see a list of these privileges, if you get a moment. | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 9/24/2007 7:13:37 PM | | OK, to your headline, I say-" Bah! I want to be treated like a woman AND like an equal, it is not either/or" and to the question you ask-can I expect that (to have both) yes, I can, and I do, period. Separate but equal.....you open my doors, I'll flirt a bit more.....you kill the snakes, I will cook the dinner.....all are important, and all are valuable. | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 9/26/2007 9:58:20 AM |
I’m very interested to see a list of these privileges, if you get a moment.
Funny you should ask... I just happened to have this handy, and Xeno's currently serving a 5-day sentence so he couldn't respond himself. It's not my list, it's just that it's easier to cut-and-paste sometimes. (My own #1 would be that women are almost entirely exempt from doing any of the hard/dangerous/dirty/undesirable work which is required to keep civilization afloat.)
The Female Privilege Checklist
Posted: 8/30/2007 6 20 PM by xeno07
1. Do you experience other people paying for your dates, or occasionally even
picking up the tab in non-romantic settings? Or paying for vacations when the
relationship moves along?
2. Do you occasionally experience subservient gestures by the opposite
sex(opening doors, giving up a seat in the bus, standing up when you come in the
room)?
3. Are you able to simply pursue what you are interested in at university
without much societal pressure on "breadwinning" - although you could also take
that route if it interests you?
4.a. Have you had to register for selective service? Would you be ripped out of
your life and forced to defend your country in time of attack or national
emergency? Can you demand strength and full participation in society, but then
get out of this obligation by pretending to be weak with no influence over
society (only when it suits you)?
4.b. Can you come up with any and every excuse to get out of this without being
laughed at ("No one should be drafted" - when you would be the first to cower in
the corner and demand that someone do something if China & Russia combined and
attacked full force - and "If men start wars ..." when women are the majority of
voters and the expression is more likely "Men are SENT in wars ..." - exactly
what you're trying to get out of - and sometimes sent by M. Thatcher, G. Meir,
I. Gandhi, B. Bhutto and others)
5. Will you statistically get a much lighter sentence for exactly the same
offense if you commit a crime?
6. Are you able to take on a job or choose a career route that is only capable
of supporting yourself, with no thought to preparing yourself to also support a
spouse/children, although you are also free to choose a more difficult career
that will bring you more money? Do you not have much pressure on you with regard
to this?
7. If you are in a committed relationship, do you have much greater flexibility
to choose whether you want to work or simply stay at home (even without kids)?
8. Will you be called an unemployed loser if you decide to be a homemaker?
9. If you have a flat tire on the road, if someone is harassing you in a public
place, if an animal attacks you, or if you are lost, will someone be much, much
more likely to help you?
10. Are people generally much nicer to you in public? Are you sometimes given
privileged treatment?
11. Are you much more capable of "marrying up" - enjoying the money and status
that comes with this?
12. Are you statistically much more likely to be given money in a divorce -
sometimes huge amounts - even if your behavior caused the divorce (e.g. affair)
and even if you didn't work for the money?
13. If you slap a person - or even knock someone's tooth out throwing your Aunt
Selma's Christmas mug at that person - is it much more likely to just be viewed
as cute, understandable or not a problem?
14. Do you statistically live much longer - possibly due to less stress on you
with regard to breadwinning, providing protection, being responsible, not having
society viewing you as "expendable" or viewing your problems as not being
important?
15. Do you have much more money spent on your health concerns in reality (e.g. 5
times as much on breast cancer as on prostate cancer - although they have
roughly the same death rates) while you simultaneously claim that more has to be
done for you?
16. Are you much less likely to be homeless? Is more offered to you by society
when you are in this position?
17. Is there far less scorn and pressure on you by society when you are an
irresponsible doofus? Are your default rates for payment of child support
roughly twice those of the other gender, while you simultaneously complain about
the other gender not paying?
18. Has whining about and hating the other gender actually been made into a
course of studies in college (women's studies) - as opposed to the true,
neutral, unbiased study of this topic - which is simply anthropology?
19. Do you have full opportunity to do anything you want in life - become a
doctor, a lawyer, start a business - while simultaneously using the fact that
many of your gender don't CHOOSE themselves to do these things as an argument to
try to gain even more advantages? Do you get affirmative action because many of
your gender don't choose to do these things, and thus the numbers don't "come
out right"?
20. Can you manipulate the other gender with sex in some cases to get what you
want? Can you pretend like you don't even know what anyone is talking about on
this topic?
21. Can you manipulate using old notions of men protecting and deferring to
women when it comes in handy?
22. Can you effectively manipulate by playing the victim? Do tears work
sometimes?
23. Can you get sympathy if you don't work and don't have children by listing
all the household work (hmm ... Oprah really does get high ratings, though)
while simultaneously being able to bear the cognitive dissonance of calling your
sister's husband who stays home a worthless bum that she ought to leave?
24. Can you "mix and match" traditional and progressive roles - finding just the
right mix to get what you want? Can you be a "traditional wife" - enjoying the
positive features of that (like not having to work) - while simultaneously being
a progressive feminist when THAT gets you advantages? Or having a career while
simultaneously using traditional chivalry and male deference to your advantage?
25. Can you constantly say "that's just typical" and "it doesn't surprise me a
bit" and make a lemon face if you are a parent-in-law? Is near-universal
contempt by both genders for your behavior hidden to a much greater extent?
26. Can almost any remark by your partner be construed as verbal abuse if you
want sympathy, but the meanest, nastiest, most humiliating things that you can
say simply involve "speaking your mind" and "some people just don't want to hear
the truth"?
27. Can you use the fact that gender roles were differentiated long ago - with
different advantages/disadvantages for both genders - to try to induce guilt
today in people who had absolutely no connection with any of that? Can you say
that you have been discriminated against for thousands of years - when you're
only 20 years old - with a straight face? Can you even make things up about
history and no one will really check or dare call you on it?
28. Can you propagate myths and outright lies ("Superbowl/domestic violence
hoax", "rule of thumb", 1/4 rape statistic, intentional misconstrual of pay
figures, and many more) and be given a "pass" - without more rigor being
demanded?
29. Can you rationalize your own failures using the concept of the "patriarchy",
and blame the other gender for nearly everything that goes wrong in your life -
even with quite contorted explanations that no one would otherwise buy - while
failures of the other gender are just ... failures?
30. Do you want to be treated like a child when it suits you but as an adult
when you get an advantage from that? Do you "look the other way" when someone
doesn't require responsibility from you that they certainly would from the other
gender?
31. Can you focus heavily on perceived earnings in the workforce - the
statistics of which are influenced by people's choices in reality - while
utterly ignoring the inter-family transfer of wealth? Can you completely ignore
the fact that one gender picks tougher jobs (garbage collector), works more
hours and takes on more responsibility because of more pressure to earn - but
the other gender has the same lifestyle and statistically more assets (and not
just because of inheritance/earlier age of male at death...). Can you
deliberately claim that earnings figures are based on equal pay for equal work?
(when you probably full well know that they simply involve all people working
more than 35 hours - and don't take type of job, hours worked over 35/week,
danger, responsibility, years in the work force etc. into consideration at all).
32. Is what used to simply be an irritation for grown-ups many years ago - the
self-centered rantings and foot stompings of spoiled high-school and college
brats - now not only embraced by your movement but almost the modern cornerstone
of it?
33. And if you are irritated about generalizations and stereotypes - and utterly
fail to see the hypocrisy in stereotyping and generalizing about one gender
while simultaneously making a career (literally, in some cases) whining about
your own gender being stereotyped ... | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 9/27/2007 5:22:27 PM | There is no such thing as equality of the sexes. If there was, men would make children.
We have equal dignity in our being human, that's all.
I personally enjoy to be treated like a woman........must be that I am old-style.
In fact I come from the old continent as well. | |
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locnar
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Joined: 8/22/2007
Msg: 62 | |
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locnar
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Joined: 8/22/2007
Msg: 64 | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 9/28/2007 2:31:59 AM |
If a man needs to give 50/50 in the relationship, do you expect to still be treated like a princess?
This comment sounds like you feel you shouldn't have to give 50% to a relationship. Exactly what percentage do you think you 'need' to give? Hopefully i misinterpreted your meaning. I think both parties should give 100% to a relationship and treat each other like royalty. I expect to be treated like a woman AND an equal. Just as i treat my man as an equal AND a man. I am not a lesser person simply because i am a woman and that is what the title of this thread implies. Equal does not mean the same, but it does mean i should have the same rights in the relationship as the man. | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 9/28/2007 3:03:42 AM | | hmmmm... what an odd little man. i've read about people like you, even seen some seventies tv programs that held sexist views. They were just as uncomfortable to watch as reading your post. Surely there is a museum some where and there is a computer in there and while the curator had his head turned you decided to post this thread? | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 9/28/2007 4:48:03 AM | There seems first off, in the question itself, to be the idea that these two things are exclusive. To me that is absurd.
I’m a woman, I not only want to be treated as such in my intimate relationships. I also expect to be treated as an equal.
I think when it comes to our “relationships” the question of equality is based much more on respect and value rather than on the persons sex. Equality or the lack there of is found in the relationship itself.
However, I think our perception of the other sex is usually rooted in our cultural values. I think it would be safe to say that the roots of all societies are either matriarchal or patriarchal. Is it then possible that what we have here, is two patriarchal societies, engaging in discussion about the issue of equality of women?
Just one of my rambling thoughts........... | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 9/28/2007 1:39:22 PM | actually in English it does:
e·qual /ˈikwəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ee-kwuhl]
1.adjective
1. as great as; the same as (often fol. by to or with)
2. like or alike in quantity, degree, value, etc.
3. evenly proportioned or balanced. | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 9/29/2007 9:30:40 PM | I think women can be equal in the sense of importance within society, within the family, etc. as well as truly treated and respected as women. We are equal in a great many ways, yet also, highly different from men. We were created to be as such and I find it a shame that many women have abandoned their differences with men, seeing those differences as somehow weak.
I also disagree with the philosophy that relationships are 50/50. Longterm relationships are 100/100, in my opinion. Each party gives 100% of themselves to themselves, to their partner, to the relationship, and to the family. So, for instance, in a financial setting, it isn't "her" income, or "his" income. They are both working as a single unit, not as individuals. So, it is "theirs", and should be thought of accordingly, in my opinion. But, this also comes under the concept that "the two shall become one" from a Christian standpoint. Should the woman take on the role of homemaker, "his" income is still "theirs", just as the dinner that "she" prepares is still "theirs" to share as well. | |
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| Do you want to be treated like a woman or an equal?
Posted: 10/3/2007 10:56:58 PM | This is a great post! I expect to be treated as an equal woman... in meaning....
I like to be treated graciously and tenderly... I like to be loved and to be held tight
I expect my man to do as a man does and care for me... in ways a woman needs caring and in exchange I will care for him as a man needs... Its as simple as doing what comes naturally to your sex... I am a woman I nuture and warm and console and teach... a man fixes, keeps, and always places rules and delegates responsibility. A woman should understand that her place is at his side.... and a man should remember the value of a womans touch. | |
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