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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/23/2007 6:01:40 AM | Over 20 years ago, my friend showed me a book in his dad's library called "The Lost Art of Conversation". We both agreed that the book was true of both children & adults in our time, and that was 20 years ago. I can go for weeks w/out having a conversation in real life, simply because so few people want to do anything more than chat, joke, flirt and have sex. People just don't seem to want to think anymore.
Part of it is that the most glorified man in the UK is David Beckham. Even amongst footballers, he is NOT someone you would want to have a long conversation with.
To mojomoma in msg #2:
now, give me a beer and start talking about philosophy or politics That got me going. If a woman can keep me up till 4am talking, I "know" the "rest" is going to be as good and last a s long. Talk away!
To mamatigress in msg #3:
It has been my experience that alot of people want to talk but no one wants to listen. Very true. How can you have a conversation if you don't really know what the other person has said? In fact, a friend of mine said that the people who are said to be the best conversationalists, are usually the best listeners.
However, a conversation requires 2 people. If you just listen, then people expect a response every now and then. If you spend your time listening and are slow to respond, people get annoyed.
So you have to know how to speak MORE than you have to know how to listen, but you have to listen MORE than you speak. Really, someone ought to write a short book on it, and it ought to be taught to everyone in school.
To princessofpower in msg #4:
I prefer for conversation to develop more organically, myself, Most people do. But the reality is that just like organisms have complex growth mechanisms, and require a great deal of care, nurturing, and direction, just like plants, and pets. If you aren't doing the work, then the other person is doing all of it. That is artificial, if you ask me.
and besides...if you're the one that messaged me, shouldn't you be the one that had some idea of what to talk about? I was always taught that if someone has made the effort to make contact, the least you can do is meet them half-way. If you are unwilling to do this, that is OK. But no-one wants a relationship where they have to make all of the work, unless they want to be totally in control, like a player, a cheater, or a control freak. Normal people want half of the control and to make half of the effort. No more, no less.
To lonemonkey in msg #31:
They say that within 30 seconds, two people decide weather they would sleep with the other person (if they are both single and looking). That is physical attraction. There are plenty of people who you are physically attracted to in less than that. But you wouldn't want to sleep with them, much less have a relationship with them, if you got to know them. Besides, didn't anyone ever tell you that the sexual organ used most in good sex, is the brain, and NOT the body? At least, that is what lots of posters seem to say, and most women of high level of sexual experience tell me.
It could be that the woman's intention is truly to find a love, rather than have a conversation with you. In that case, then she should follow the advice of most people in long-lasting relationships, who all say it is the ability to communicate that makes a relationship last the distance.
Don't take it personally. Anyone who rejects a relationship based on looks before getting to know someone, doesn't know that attraction can grow and fade immensely, based on how well you can talk to the person. That says more about her as a person, than him. That's why such people are called shallow. They just aren't thinking things through enough to get anything that anyone really wants. | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/23/2007 6:01:44 AM | Maybe it's the art of listening that is missing? I like to be understood. Sometimes when I am talking to someone it is apparent that they are running something in the background in their mind. Pretty common. Part of their mind isn't there.
So I learned to direct communication in a way that it "impacts"? It's normal conversation but my words are not directed out in space or somthing. It is directed directly into the person. This will normally cut through the background noise.
You really do need to get eye contact first and maintain a reasonable amount.
I can tell when someone is listening to me and so can pretty much anyone else. When that happens to can have a conversation. | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/23/2007 9:18:08 AM | | Well spoken and answers that truly hit the point of discussion -- a lot of truisms and facts that are read, heard, but seldom absorbed lol...infatuation is fleeting, lust is temporary, and intimacy goes hand in hand with a true awareness of your partner's feelings, wants and desires in life. | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/23/2007 9:49:28 AM | OP, what I love, is when women send me messages that just say ":-)" or "nice pics", as if they expect YOU to do the work of chatting THEM up now they've got your attention!! So in the tiny event that I actually start to ask them questions, we then get a few worded answeres with no questions of their own, and I'm like wtf are you mailing me for then woman?!?! We're not in the 50s now ladies it doesn't work like that, use your own fakkin brains  | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/23/2007 12:56:39 PM | In my mind, true conversing is face-to-face. And doesn't just involve talking and listening. (I heard you, krimi) But it also involves, in a very large way, body language. Eye contact, facial expressions, the occasional touch, leaning in towards the other person or people to eliminate distractions. And any time two or more people get together to shoot the breeze, you'll see all of this and more. Come to small town Saskatchewan and sit in a coffee shop and watch the groups of people talking. They know how to have conversations and the topics are far-reaching.
If you consider internet chat to be conversation, it's not so much that it's a lost art form, but more that you're missing some very key components of actual conversation. | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/23/2007 1:01:23 PM | | I do OK as long as there is no intentional mumbling of ambiguous phrases, which reminds me too much of a sad childhood episode, or spontaneous disrobing, which distracts me no end in any case. In my experience conversation is a thriving art, better than ever. It may seem that way to me because I assume that what is going over my head represents cunning and skill. | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/23/2007 1:14:49 PM | Now you're talking.
Were you aware, Bob, that if you drop an earthworm (phylum annelid) into a can of Coke, it will dissolve within about 48 hours? (Isn't this more fun than discussing the respective sizes of body parts all the time?) | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/23/2007 1:21:32 PM |
You have 2 ears and 1 mouth and they should be used proportionately And if you follow that, just who is speaking?
Communication is a two way street, all involved have to listen as well as speak. If the conversation isn't going somewhere, either leave it or attempt to take it somewhere. It is not up to any one in particular to start a conversation, and at least for me, when I ask what do you want to talk about, I am interested in what you think and find interesting. | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/23/2007 3:05:42 PM |
Sometimes when I am talking to someone it is apparent that they are running something in the background in their mind. Pretty common. Part of their mind isn't there.
That speaks to so much in life CJ, even beyond conversation. Most of us actually aren't present in our lives... kind of like sleepwalking through life not completely noticing what is in front of us because we're pretty much always chewing on something in the back of our mind.
I took a communication course some 20 years ago and took away a couple of valuable tools. One was, when you switch an activity to deliberately tell yourself "Stop" and completely stopping whatever you were thinking about or what task you wee doing. Then tell yourself "change", which cues you that it is a transition and then "start", giving the person or task in front of you 100% of your attention. It sounds awkward, but with practice it becomes a habit that does requires about as much attention as you have to give to breathing. The result tho' is incredible.
You actually feel what it is like to give ALL of your attention to another person; most of us don't know what that feels like, because we've never really given someone our full attention before... only feeble approximations to it. Once you've practiced a bit and you know what it feels like, you can often catch yourself drifting, tell yourself to stop and bring your attention back to the person, listening fully to what they have to say. The effect on other people is amazing as well; they blossom and become more alive. We so rarely get someone's full attention, it really feels like an extraordinary gift. You can almost feel the air between you crackle.
Most of conversation is about listening. We figure because we have two ears we know how to listen, but we actually need to learn how to listen. What most people do when they are theoretically listening is think about what they are going to say next, rather than 100% listening to understand what the other person thinks/says.
Although not strictly part of conversation - more in the area of communication - persuasion is dead easy if you learn to listen well. People will tell you what their points of resistance are and what they need to agree. They'll even tell you how they need it served up, in what tone and manner. Then it is pretty simple to speak into that and other people quite readily agree. I haven't really had any arguments (other than in the delicious conversational type of argument/debate) in years because I use this tool, particularly when things get a bit tense. | |
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Tramp
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Joined: 2/8/2007
Msg: 61 | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/23/2007 7:55:54 PM | Well you took your time responding didn't you
haha, now i cant remember what i was saying :)
Just kidding
Your profile is much much better now... hopefully it will warrant better email convos :)
By the way why did you post so many pictures of your brother *grin* and why are you hiding your nipples ?!
Necking LOL that doesnt age us at all, they now call it frenching or was it snoggin... shot i'll have to ask my 16 yr old again :)
:kiss:
*Carpe_diem*
You have 2 ears and 1 mouth and they should be used proportionately
And if you follow that, just who is speaking?
Communication is a two way street, all involved have to listen as well as speak. If the conversation isn't going somewhere, either leave it or attempt to take it somewhere. It is not up to any one in particular to start a conversation, and at least for me, when I ask what do you want to talk about, I am interested in what you think and find interesting.
Beautifully put :)
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/23/2007 9:31:57 PM | | nothing wrong with having a conversation with others, sometimes i learn from their challenges and sometimes they learn from me. not to many like to talk these days, i get those who say hi and thats it..or they wanna talk botu sex, those ones i ignore. i do have a friend i talk to on a regular bases(telephone) and i truly enjoy our talks and we learn from one another. we talked for hours each time, never a silent moment. we had alot in common, simularities, so it seems. | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/24/2007 8:00:44 AM | It is easy to write words, but even easier to speak them. A conversation is excactly that. A person can not have a conversation with a computer screen. Ok someone on the other side of the screen can read and respond to writings, but a true two way conference or with a group of people is the real deal. Facial expressions, going off on a tangent, remembering things on the spur of the moment.. THAT is a real conversation.
Computers are such an unemotional medium that one feels compelled to add things like lol, lmao... (Sorry that's all I know). A person would not be in a conversation and actually say 'My dog drank my wine spritzer! lol' would they? | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/24/2007 11:17:37 AM | Clearly an excellent topic, as proven by the responses. I firmly believe that communication is a diminishing characteristic of humanity - at least in America. It would be great to revive communication skills, but as our nation diversifies, we sustain a huge influx of cultures, all of which seemingly communicate in ways vastly different than "our" way of communicating. It would be nice if spelling and grammar were more strictly enforced . . . perhaps Congress could pass another law?
Have you ever seen "Pulp Fiction" where Uma asks John "Do you listen or wait to talk?" (or something along that line) Well, I listen, but even those who vehemently profess to be great communicators don't seem to listen. My image states I'm "separated", but everyone who contacts me thinks I'm the typical lying dog. Truth is, the box is very limited, and I am separated - my "wife" remarried in 1996 and forgot to ask me for a divorce . . . so should I lie and say I'm single, or tell the truth and say I'm separated with outstanding circumstances? Gee, if she had only communicated a little better, I would have gladly given her the divorce, the house, the car, the dog . . . . no sense in wasting time on the drama | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/24/2007 2:33:58 PM |
You have to realize that when women say they want a man who is capable of conversation, what they are REALLY saying is that they want a man who will shut up and listen to what THEY are saying. And, even more than that, the more important bit is that they want their man to DO WHAT THEY SAY.
Where did you come by such profound wisdom.
The whole conversation thing is great, but have you actually listened to women when they are conversating? Especially when there is a herd of them yapping?
I trust you didn't mean anything derogatory by the word yapping iago
Not a one of them hears a word of what the other is saying. If there are 6 of them around the table, there are 8 completely different conversations going on.
Are you not ignoring all the wonderful practice they get in speaking the english language damnit iago, lighten up a bit man.
Don't try to figure it out. Just nod and grunt. It's worked for thousands of years. Stay the course.
Did you borrow this from blazing saddles "harumph" scene. | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/24/2007 2:48:51 PM |
What most people do when they are theoretically listening is think about what they are going to say next, rather than 100% listening to understand what the other person thinks/says.
I didn't learn this from a course but if you need to answer something that's said in a conversation and they are prone to talk forever without taking a breath, in all fairness to both parties you should interrupt with "are you going to forget what you are expaining or telling or whatever if i interupt here, because i'm afraid i'm gonna forget what i'm wanting to respond to if i don't". | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/24/2007 7:39:11 PM | holy cow, good topic.
i have found in my short time here that CONVERSATION is the main thing lacking.
is it that hard to hold a convo that goes more then 5 emails before it trails off to a ONE WORD response.
laaaaaammmmmmeeee.
i actually have a test i put into effect, and 9 out of 10 they fail.
they cant even grab on to the flow and go.
not to mention they become 'selective' on what they answer.
there will be 4 questions there and only two answers come forth.
again.
laammmmme.
since this is the internet, youd think TYPING WORDS would be the main objective.
or not. | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/25/2007 12:42:16 AM |
My observation that 6 women will have 8 conversations going is accurate. I've seen it many times and been totally amazed by it. Like many men, I just don't see the point in talking for the sake of talking.
Spoken like a true introvert. The reason women "yammer" is because they are establishing connections with each other, catching up on the latest news about other people, expressing how they feel about EVERYTHING. It isn't talking just to hear their own voices.
Yep, women are pretty adept at holding several conversations at once. The reason they can do this is because they can hear and follow several conversations at once. I was amazed when I first noticed this. A girl had invited me to a dinner party with her coworkers. She was sitting beside me, and we were having a nice conversation, but now and then she would make a comment to someone at the far end of the table without missing a beat in our conversation.
I can't do that. To hold a conversation in such a noisy room, I have to shut out the other distracting talk. BRAVO to women for that ability.
Is conversation a dead art? I don't think so at all. Someone remarked that they get very little in their emails. In my opinion that's because you have to approach the email thingy like a conversation -- you have to go through a ramp up period, feel the other person out, offer an interesting story about an incident from your life that's meaningful to you, be playful, tease her a little, ask questions about her, ask her to tell you something about her that she thinks is interesting.
I haven't had any problem at all getting a conversation going with women on the internet. But then I don't try to interview them. There are much more effective ways to get a woman to show you who she is, like asking her to tell you, like telling her you want to get to know HER.
I'm not completely sure what the real topic is in this thread. Is it about conversing over the internet, or conversing face-to-face -- or both?
I will make this comment, someone remarked about letter writing being a lost art. Well, letter writing is dead simply because we have the internet now. That changes the rules. When a letter was "the state of technology" it made sense to write a five-pager because of the time lag between responses, but now with the internet it makes much more sense to write relatively short notes because of the more rapid turn-around time --- it has become more conversational, especially with the advantage of emoticons to assist in conveying nuance. It's a poor substitute for facial expression, voice tonality and body language, but it's better than nothing.
As for the comments about "pictures" and physical attractiveness, well, to be blunt and honest about it we all have our own requirements about what is acceptable in another person for a potential relationship. So pictures are a good idea for several reasons. Someone suggested that if there were no pictures then people would hook up on other "more important" criteria. To some extent yes. But the truth is that a relationship can appear to be going well, then when someone sees the other person it all goes right out the window. Let me ask you what would be more hurtful, to have something develop and then be rejected because of how you look, or to be rejected immediatly before anything develops?
The truth is we all read each others faces and bodies, and get important information from that that helps us make important judgements. It's been said that when we are young, we can't help the face we have, but when we get older we are responsible for our face. There's some truth in that. I won't go into a "conversation" with someone who has a sour puss because of what it tells me about that person. When you can see "sour" right through a persons smile, it's because they have soured regardless of the reasons. When you can see a twinkle in someones eyes, it's because they have a twinkle in their personality. But now I'm stating the obvious that we all know at some level. | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/25/2007 12:58:32 AM | LOL. Some pretty funny stuff. Anyway, many years ago a really wise friend of mine once told me that marriage was a lifetime conversation. I believe he was right. 10 years ago I was in a marriage where conversations of any great depth, value, or enjoyment were a rarity. Oddly enough, sex was great (or at least, frequent), and actually ended up replacing conversation. I know, sounds good on the surface, but in the long run, it just didn't work.
I have a problem really buying into the whole "guys are this way" and girls "are that way". I think we're all really unique in our own way and if you find the right person where conversation just flows, well... that's a huge part of the battle. But everyone is different. In my case I'm a big yapper, and I enjoy being with a woman who is the same way. But then, for you Woody Allen fans, remember the couple walking down the street in Annie Hall? Woody asks what the secret to their success is and the guys says something like, "I'm really shallow and don't have much to say", and she says, "I'm pretty much the same way". | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/25/2007 1:04:18 AM |
is it that hard to hold a convo that goes more then 5 emails before it trails off to a ONE WORD response.
laaaaaammmmmmeeee.
Just a couple of comments on this. Once a phone conversation starts, the emails will trail off. If it trails off before that, it's because one of you are not holding up your end or because one of you is boring the other. But there's another alternative -- timing -- often people will toss out a short note just to keep the conversation alive when they have no time to get more in depth. These are things you have to judge for yourself.
Remember, emails on the internet are actually a poor medium when compared to face-to-face, but it also depends on your personal communication skills. | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/25/2007 1:21:53 AM |
I have a problem really buying into the whole "guys are this way" and girls "are that way". I think we're all really unique in our own way and if you find the right person where conversation just flows, well...
Are you saying you don't see the vast differences between men and women in the way they think, feel, and process information?
What seems to be true to me, from my psychological studies, is that about 75% of men are "thinkers", and 75% of women are "feelers", primarily. The "reversed" men being primarily feelers and the "reversed" women being primarily thinkers are still way different from their feeling or thinking opposite-sexed counterparts.
To my way of thinking, it's important to seek an understanding of these differences in order to enhance your communication skills and expand your options when it comes to viable relationships with the opposite sex. | |
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tmotts
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Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 73 | |
| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/25/2007 3:07:46 AM | I find that I am not much of a conversationalist when it comes to small talk. But, there is nothing I enjoy more than a good conversation. The trivial little mundane things of everyday life kinna bore me, but I will listen if that is what you need.
Most days you if you ask me how my day went, I will usually state whether it was a good one or a bad one. However if we get on subjects about people and past experiences, that's when I am most interested.
What fascinates me most is why people do the things they do. I feel you can tell alot from a person by their reaction to various adversities and challenges that they were confronted with.
Conversation and communication is important in any relationship. Being empathetic and truly listening is a skill not everyone has. I will always listen to you, and occasionally inject my opinion. If you don't take the time to listen to me when I want to open up, than I will stop talking. When I stop talking and opening up, than the relationship is doomed. Sometimes words and thoughts just flow out of me, sometimes it takes an interested person to draw them out.
I love banter and challenging conversation. It actually stimulates me. Simple little conversation starters will never draw me out. I will know you, but you will never truly know me.
I guess everyone is different, sometimes you have to learn how to draw a person out. If you don't like the conversation skills of someone, than perhaps it may just be your job to help draw them out. You may be pleasantly surprised on what lies underneath. | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/25/2007 3:40:19 AM |
I will always listen to you, and occasionally inject my opinion. If you don't take the time to listen to me when I want to open up, than I will stop talking.
Unfortunately the art of listening is lost to many. Often when you listen, and not just hear, it opens up a wide range of topics one can talk about.
It's amazing how many people miss out on getting to know someone better, because they don't truly listen to what the other has to say. | |
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| Conversation is a lost art form
Posted: 9/25/2007 5:59:42 PM | Well said, and a lot of valid observations lol... To all that have responded so far, I must compliment everyone on their opinions, and to update myself on this thread, here are some of my conclusions:
All people are different and unique, some like to talk and message and some like to just delete without any opportunity of further communication.
I do not message guys lol, but the women I have approached so far, most have been blunt or direct in refusing communication, for reasons of their own. I am not judgmental or assuming anything negative, rather that they are not interested for whatever reason they have in mind.
Manners are lost as well lol, no politeness in saying 'thanks but not interested, or not my type, or seeking another person for their wants/needs...' -- I do respond to all messages and reciprocate an interest or not, so as to not keep them in limbo lol.
I have chatted with some who are great talkers, listen as well, and the conversation flows with no expectations - friendly banter and flirty playfulness are great ways to learn if there is some further chances of pursuing a date or meeting... and when meeting, if there is a connection or not, then be polite but honest -- most appreciate this and will hopefully establish a friendship along the way.
Anyone interested in chatting, can always find me... | |
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