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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/19/2007 9:28:55 AM | I've studied astrology and interpreted charts for people for a long time. Since I keep all the data I've obtained, I note some really striking coincidences. It's definitely not a random, hit-or-miss type of deal.
That being said, it's really not a good idea to obsess over whether a certain TYPE of person is "right" for you or not. Astrology is a good tool for gaining insight and solving problems--it's NOT something anyone should live by. xoxoxo | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/19/2007 10:03:25 AM |
Who in the heck would ask for funding to do a study like you suggest? A scientist would be dismissed as a quack if they used the words astrology and study in the same sentence. To get a study going you would need to show why a sane person would expect there to be some correlation between human behavior and the "heavens" - so far I ain't heard one. Funny. That was the exact same argument that the Vatican used against Galileo. How can what you can see in the sky have any correlation with the whether the Earth move around the Sun or the Sun moves around the Earth?
I don't think that was the case at all. The argument the Vatican used against Galileo was the authoritarian one that they were the ones who dictated what was right and what wasn't, not anything observable by him through his telescope. He could have easily answered the question you posed, but they weren't interested in hearing logical arguments. Medieval christianity was based on the idea that the earth was at the center of god's universe, that it was center stage in some cosmic battle of good and evil. Galileo's work was scientific in nature but it obviously challenged the Vatican's entire basis for being in power.
There have been some studies testing astrological claims. For example, Mars is supposed to be important for warriors and others engaged in competitive battles of various sorts, but a study of all Olympic gold medal winners found nothing in their 'charts' which suggested that where Mars was when they were born had anything to do with their success. | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/19/2007 10:48:06 AM |
Who in the heck would ask for funding to do a study like you suggest? A scientist would be dismissed as a quack if they used the words astrology and study in the same sentence. To get a study going you would need to show why a sane person would expect there to be some correlation between human behavior and the "heavens" - so far I ain't heard one.
Funny. That was the exact same argument that the Vatican used against Galileo. How can what you can see in the sky have any correlation with the whether the Earth move around the Sun or the Sun moves around the Earth?
I don't think that was the case at all. The argument the Vatican used against Galileo was the authoritarian one that they were the ones who dictated what was right and what wasn't, not anything observable by him through his telescope. He could have easily answered the question you posed, but they weren't interested in hearing logical arguments. Medieval christianity was based on the idea that the earth was at the center of god's universe, that it was center stage in some cosmic battle of good and evil. Galileo's work was scientific in nature but it obviously challenged the Vatican's entire basis for being in power.
There have been some studies testing astrological claims. For example, Mars is supposed to be important for warriors and others engaged in competitive battles of various sorts, but a study of all Olympic gold medal winners found nothing in their 'charts' which suggested that where Mars was when they were born had anything to do with their success.
As you state the argument about Galileo is very flawed because Galileo used the scientific method to disprove the "beliefs" of his day. What was suggested is that a "belief" (astrology) might cast doubt on the scientific method, which isn't going to happen. | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/19/2007 11:06:33 AM |
I know of people, with the same birthdates, who have totally different personalities.
I know of a guy with the exact same birthdate as me, who's personality is nowhere near the same as mine.
If we were to believe the people who think star-signs are they main determining factor in our personality types: then shouldn't me andf a guy born within a couple hours of me have the same personalities?
Personality is the key word. Even though you have people born on the same date (even same year sometimes), they were probably born at different hours, which means they would have different ascendants, thus different personalities. 12 signs and 24 hours means that the ascendant sign will change approximately every 2 hours. And then, of course, the Moon could change signs that same day.
And then, what about twins? They are people born within minutes of each other, so chances are, they're going to have the same ascendant. Here is where numerology would be helpful because chances are, they're not going to have the same first name. | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/19/2007 10:13:26 PM | Personality is the key word I personally believe that personality is the biggest determining factor in relationships.
Whether or not astrological signs determine the success failure of any relationship, would depend on how much of an influence astrology is on the development of a person's personality.
Some believe it is a strong determining factor. I don't.
I think that many other factors in life (such as upbringing) play a greater role in personality development.
they were probably born at different hours, which means they would have different ascendants, thus different personalities. 12 signs and 24 hours means that the ascendant sign will change approximately every 2 hours. And then, of course, the Moon could change signs that same day. Interesting point.
I really wasn't aware of ascendant signs (I'm obviously not an expert on astrology). But if they change every couple of hours, and supposedly influence our personalities: then wouldn't it mean that you can't judge a person' relationship potential, just by their monthly sign alone, if personality development was also influenced by these ascendant signs? | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/19/2007 10:33:42 PM | | Astrology is fun and can be OK to help guide you but as far as things go? Its only for guidence. I'm an aquarius and have dated one of everyone from the zodiac. The best guy I've ever dated was whatever sign I should avoid. Screw that. | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 1:30:44 AM | Once again apologies for my very deep reply.. Its just that I am very interested in metaphysics ...
It is fact that everything that has a positive effect on us is for our greater good, and this includes what we believe.. But this isn't just about what we believe. Astrology is not some silly story like Noah and the arc, it in many studies is being scientifically proven....So why do many cast aside astrology as a load of rubbish? When it is clear that when there is a full moon the lunatics become restless .. The movement of planets create magnetic fields that we cannot see but to the more sensitive can feel and it does effect our emotions. After all what pulls the tides? Every one of us is affected by the planetary aspect and this is being proven today via metaphysics and DNA testing... We really know so little and so many stories are born out of how little we really do know even now. Astrology only appears rediculous due to the placement of the stars resembling certain things. i.e the bull or the crab.. Much of what we read in the paper can be too generalised and of course it is so watered down its only a very light guide to what is happening in the skies, and cannot be totally acurate in all cases.
unfortunatly people can be so negative about the unknown..
No matter what you believe there is always love. Love is something nobody can deny exists, yet there are still people questioning it....Love is energy that radiates around us, this energy can be measured in colour by our aura glow.
Where there is love there is goodness. Goodness and love radiates from within. Our own personal belief system and our emotions is the creator of our spiritual growth. We are the creators of our own thoughts and personal ideas. However we as children have been taught to believe in that which our parents believed and those before them. We have been tied to religions and forced to beleive what others have told us to beleive.Too many sheep and not enough actually listening to what is deep inside there subconsious mind..
The time has come in our evolutionary process to shift from the unconscious into the conscious. To create our own beliefs based on the facts of what we inside know to be correct. Science has advanced to such a degree that we know that we are all created by molecules and energy. Just as the stars themselves. Our thoughts are wave patterns and even our personal thoughts can change things in either a positive and negative way. Negative thinkers become depressed...The depressed are unloved and unwanted...Its all a cycle just as the planetary path is a cycle and all that we are is created by cycles from our own thoughts and beliefs.... It is how we deal with and decipher these experiences into negative or positive categories that make us happy or unhappy as the case may be. Everything has a polar opposite, where there is an up there is a down. Where there is a left there is a right. We all have an opposite. just as when time began from one negative and positive charge creating the whole universe.
Stay with the positive even through negative times,we then acknowledge that the eventual outcome will always be for the greater good.
The universe is unfolding as it should our own thoughts and energy are helping to create the greatness of it all. Think positivly and positive vives will be returned to you....it is you and you alone that can create that which is within your own world and beyond. keep smiling. The world is beautiful and so are you....
Love to all Catherine.xxx
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 4:37:16 AM | RE msg 105 & msg 106:
Who in the heck would ask for funding to do a study like you suggest? A scientist would be dismissed as a quack if they used the words astrology and study in the same sentence. To get a study going you would need to show why a sane person would expect there to be some correlation between human behavior and the "heavens" - so far I ain't heard one.
Funny. That was the exact same argument that the Vatican used against Galileo. How can what you can see in the sky have any correlation with the whether the Earth move around the Sun or the Sun moves around the Earth?
I don't think that was the case at all. The argument the Vatican used against Galileo was the authoritarian one that they were the ones who dictated what was right and what wasn't, not anything observable by him through his telescope. He could have easily answered the question you posed, but they weren't interested in hearing logical arguments. Medieval christianity was based on the idea that the earth was at the center of god's universe, that it was center stage in some cosmic battle of good and evil. Galileo's work was scientific in nature but it obviously challenged the Vatican's entire basis for being in power. I am not sure you understood my point. Science is about objectivity. That requires the removal of subjectivity. I cannot do that if I am more interested in my subjective beliefs than the objective reality.
Copernicus objectively proved that the Earth went around the Sun a century before Galileo. So why was this idea accepted in Galileo's time and not in Copernicus' time?
Because it was only in Galileo's time that people in power no longer listened to the Church, not because he said anything different than Copernicus.
It was only the subjective choice of those in power to no longer listen to the Church in Galileo's time, that made Galileo more acceptable than the objective truth of Copernicus.
In our current time, people subjectively choose to believe only in certain types of truths, and not in others. Astrology seems to fall into the latter category.
There have been some studies testing astrological claims. For example, Mars is supposed to be important for warriors and others engaged in competitive battles of various sorts, but a study of all Olympic gold medal winners found nothing in their 'charts' which suggested that where Mars was when they were born had anything to do with their success. That would make sense, if not for the fact that Mars has nothing to do with Athletic ability, and is attributed to drive, ambition and perseverance, particularly in business. Fire signs (Aries, Leo, Sagittarius) are associated with external physical prowess, such as running, and Earth signs (Capricorn, Taurus, Virgo) are associated with internal physical prowess, such as strength. Now, if you told me that 90% of Olympic medallists had no Fire or Earth signs in their chart at all, and that would prove your point.
Now, I don't go asking people for their birth date, place of birth and exact time of birth, but in my own chart, I know that I have Mars in my Ascendant, and have no Fire signs in my chart at all. I am known for not being "sporty" or self-motivated (typeical qualities of Fire signs), but when I actually set myself on a task, I keep on it until I get it done. I suffered from extreme Hydrophobia as a child, and could not even bear to have water poured on my head. By 23, I had taught myself to swim. If that isn't determination (the main quality of Mars), I don't know what it. In addition, I am incredibly competitive, but hate to show it, and have an inferiority complex about competition, so I only choose to engage in subjects where I know I can win, and will excel in those subjects out of all recognition.
As you state the argument about Galileo is very flawed because Galileo used the scientific method to disprove the "beliefs" of his day. What was suggested is that a "belief" (astrology) might cast doubt on the scientific method, which isn't going to happen. Astrology doesn't cast any doubt on Francis Bacon's Scientific Method. Astrology casts doubt on how modern people Subjectively interpret Francis Bacon's Objective Scientific Method, and them claim they are finding the Objective Truth.
I used to do birth charts on people and found them extremely accurate, which is why I believed in them in the first place.
If you want to perform an objective test, send me the exact date, time and place of birth of 20 people, who are extremely well-known by someone you know and trust. Then I will happily do the birth charts, extract any references to Astrology from the charts, and send the personal information to this person. Then this person could send you the results of how accurate he thinks the information is, and I could send you the birth charts so that you could see that the info I sent to your friend is the same as on the birth chart.
Or, do this same experiment on just yourself. It would be funny if your friend thinks that your chart contains the same info about you that he has found by knowing you, wouldn't it? | |
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tmotts
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Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 109 | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 4:56:09 AM | From my perspective, the problem with astrology is that people take it far to seriously - both those for and against it.
If you want to see the scientific testing of astrology as a theory, just google "The Mars Effect" and follow the links as well as reading my previous posts.
Two further notes:
1) People born at the same time would have to be born in the same place as well to have the same birth chart. One's rising signs and houses will vary by longitude for the same birth moment. Latitude also has an effect to a lesser extent.
2) At best, astrology is a statistical prediction, so you can't take any specifics personally. For instance, one could say generally that men are taller and heavier than women, but there are many exceptions. Another analogy is that you can take a piece of highway and record how many accidents occur there each year. If you had to predict how many accidents there would be this year you could probably give a reasonably accurate answer. Howver, you could not say, with any reasonable accuracy, the fate of any one car travelling along that stretch of pavement. | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 6:27:45 AM | I just googled "The Mars Effect". Very interesting. I never heard of this study before. What interested me most was the analysis of the rebuttal study. First, only 303 out of 2,088 were used, hardly enough for such a study, and secondly, it appeared that on examination, this 303 were not a true cross-section.
Also, I suspect that one reason for a lack of available incontrovertible data debunking astrology is that all birth charts require the same things: exact date, time and place of birth, and have done so for as long as they have been around. The strange thing is that while date and place seem to be universally recorded, time is never recorded, yet whenever I watch TV programmes about doctors, policemen and the law, they always make a point of recording all 3 for a death. The time of birth would help in determining risk factors in neonatal death, so is medically useful, yet this simple fact, which would at least be known for births in a hospital, seems never to be available except in anecdotal evidence from the nurse. This information must be available, because all operations of all kinds need to be recorded with the date, time, and the doctor/surgeon who treated the patient, and because the birth would be in an operating theatre, which needs to be booked and recorded, because there are many operations required but few operating theatres.
So the obvious question is that if scientists and doctors believe that astrology is bunkum, why do they record the time of every operation and every death in a hospital and never record the birth? It makes no sense to me. | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 7:14:58 AM | Astrology is for those who are not strong enough to plan their own paths. What sort of weak person has to read a paragraph in the newspaper each day to decide how to act for that day? Weak people use astrology to claim "my sign made me do it" when things go wrong. Take responsibility for your life, your relationships and how you react to others.
Just being born on a particular date can not predispose you to any given course of events on any given day. I live by one rule "pretend that whateve you are doing now may end-up on the front cover of the newspaper tomorrow". Now that practice will surely give you the right course to follow today. That attitude will drive you to look for people of similar beliefs and thiose are the people that you want to be associated with. Peace-out | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 7:38:22 AM | I can only summarize that, all the people in prison and doing life for rape, murder etc...are from every astrological sign. So I don't put any relevance into any of this form of categorizing people or a way to find your so called match. You can use all the science and study material you want, the proof is really right in front of us, these facts cannot be disputed. | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 8:20:20 AM | Just to throw something into the fray.... ask a cop about 'full moons' and for the more bizarre ask someone who works in a home for the aged or mentally infirm...... | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 8:45:18 AM | Hi,
On a particular day, read your horoscope from say a dozen different websites, newspapers or whatever. Take notice of what is different and similar about your horoscope for that day. Notice how ambiguous many horoscopes are and open for a variety of interpretation. If these astologers are basing their horoscopes on the same celestial data why are they so different? Are they all bad astrologers or is astrology unreliable? Has the study of Astrology changed, evolved, improved and progressed over the ages or has it essentially remained the same?
Instead of relying on antequated stereotypes and superstition you should trust your powers of observation, instinct, common sense and life experience to guide you in your relationships. You will likely find it more empowering and rewarding.
Good Luck!
The Fella | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 10:24:31 AM | For those of you who believe that science is totally objective, I suggest you check out from your local library -- better yet, buy from you local bookstore, because you'll be wantin' to reread it -- Arthur Koestler's The Case of the Midwife Toad.
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 10:34:54 AM | I think it's a great way to get a better understanding of someone and where they're coming... what their natural disposition is, but I keep an open mind when dating and don't "disqualify" (for lack of a better word) anyone because there's a lot more too it then their Sun sign. Layers and layers... you need to know what sign their venus (love life) is in, what sign their moon is in, and a bunch more to fully understand the person... bottom line. Everyone is unique so it's worth giving them a chance -- you might be pleasantly surprised :) Hopefully we all will be 
J | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 10:39:17 AM | Hi,
You make a good point. Science isn't totally objective but it has a lot more objectivity in it than say Astrology. Science continually reevaluates itself and attempts to progress, change and transform. It's not perfect but it evolves over time. It is far more dynamic than Astrology which is relatively static and does not seem to improve on itself. The greatest critic of science is the scientific community itself. I may be wrong here but there don't seem to be too many journals in Astrology were Astrologers test their theories, report their findings, share it with their peers, criticize each others work, reevaluate and discover new knowledge.
I have read Koestler's The Sleepwalkers but I will check out the book that you suggested. You may want to check out the Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan. Either way this has been a fun discussion.
The Fella | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 10:48:44 AM | Humans are prone to making errors.
Which Human decided that looking off into space determines who I'm most compatible with?
Interesting, If I study my feces will I be able to figure out what job I should be doing?
Feces is pretty fascinating too, actually i'm a fan of the digestive system.
I'm not a fan of maintaining call priority. | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 12:47:02 PM | Re msg 118:
Read up on Paradigm Shifts in Science. You'll find it interesting.
My own experience of Astrology is that there are 2 types: the Astrology for the masses, like the daily printed horoscopes, which are for entertainment only, and the serious Astrology, which consists of Astrologers who are always trying to develop their art. For a serious Astrologer, every chart is an experiment in accuracy, and teaches the Astrologer more than he knew before. I wish I could say that Scientists also viewed their practice of their subject in the same learning fashion, just as Francis Bacon did, the discoverer of the Scientific Method. | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 12:56:26 PM | Hi Scorpiomover
I have read about paradigm shifts and I understand your point. Today's indisputable fact can easily become tomorrow's fiction. Admittedly, I only know about the Astrology for the masses. I would be interested to learn more about serious Astrology and how they develop their art. My comments were clearly aimed at Astrology for the masses. Do you have any websites to suggest?
The Fella | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 1:47:38 PM | Usually, all the metaphysical stuff becomes a bunch of self-fufilling prophesy: things will be as you wish to perceive them.
A few years ago I had a girlfriend call me and tell me off for cheating on her. She had consulted some sort of mystic who gave her a free session and all the sordid “information” on me (not one bit true, of course).
It’s too bad that none of that slander is actionable. | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 2:31:39 PM | Dear Imperturbable - I do not feel it is shallow to check out a person's astrological chart. It's not just reading your daily horoscope in the sunday papers - it's real in-depth description of the character traits of a person based on place, time and date of birth - and it's really works. However, I don't subscribe to living my life by my daily horoscope. I do reccomend that before you make a total committment to another person, it's a good idea to check out the compatibility between both of you. You both will have positive and negative traits and it helps to understand how the other person thinks and what they want that they don't say. It's not hocus pocus - it's a real deep and intricate science and should be respected - not laughed at!!
Although I believe that you know if the "connection" is right - sometimes there are traits that you may just ignor thinking that they will clear up afterwards. If you don't understand the underlying issues - you cannot deal with them effectively. It's not cold and unemotional - but it's really cool to read the compatibility report and sit there and shake your head "yes - that's right on". Try it - it can't hurt. How do you know if you've never experienced this first hand?? There's a good web site that gives free charts and you can send away for the more in depth charts. It's www.astrodienst.com
I sent away for my psychological report and cried when I read it because I felt like they could see deep into my heart and soul. Many times it confirms what you already suspect - but they interpret it in a way that shows you what to do to change the deeper issues that plague each and every one of us.
Just my opinion!!
Bet211 | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 2:44:03 PM | | Astrology is meant to be used as a guide. Compatibility reports between two people are extremely accurate. However, everyone has free will. You can choose to live your life by your chart - or follow to your heart. I believe that either way, we will be right where we are meant to be. God does have a plan - and whether you believe it or not, astrology shows you that plan. I've seen it time and time again. | |
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| astrology and relationships
Posted: 10/20/2007 2:52:24 PM | Thank you for that post.
Everyone needs a little humor in their life, thank you for allowing me to find so much humor in your post. | |
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