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 bluebrummie
Joined: 4/6/2006
Msg: 76
Creationism or Evolution?Page 4 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
Msg 21:

All you atheists and non believer will be sorry on judgement day. When you reach the gates of paradise, instead of going on to heaven you will be going on to purgatory, then down to hell.

I am in Hell already, it's called living on Earth!

I believed in God and the Bible since a young age. I believed that God made us all and everything on Earth. To me Religion is just a form of brainwashing! Why? Because I was TOLD that growing up by others and by the teachings of R.E. at school! I was Christened, I went to Sunday School, I went to see Billy Graham at the age of about 14 and "saw the light" but now my Faith and Beliefs have completely left me behind! I don't want to go off topic and debate about religion because it as all been done before but I will say this, I have had that much sh*t happen to me and my kids, let alone the cr@p that happens in the World, that no endless amount of JW leaflets through my door or religious discussions will ever explain or convince me of anything anymore!

The very same JW and other religious people I have spoken to, never have an answer to explain why the Dinosaurs existed either yet the facts are there under our noses! I am open minded about a lot of things and I would never say to anyone that they are not entitled to their beliefs or that this or that is not true, as long as I get the same respect back. Unless something is completely true or not true and the facts are shown to me and I am 100% convinced in myself then who am I to say it is or isn't?! In answer to the question though, yes I believe in Evolution, and I have so for a long time and that is my choice, but I do not knock anyone who have their beliefs and they shouldn't knock anyone who do not have any at all or those who have different beliefs altogether! As long as one doesn't harm the other then it's OK but if they do, or force their beliefs onto others or attempt to change or disrespect the others, then that becomes a completely different debate altogether doesn't it?!
 MrScott
Joined: 3/20/2006
Msg: 77
view profile
History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/26/2008 5:08:12 PM
Evolution all the way, I can't belive creationalism still has so much traction it's scary!
I'm pretty sure the process of evolution is fact and has been proven, traits and mutations get passed on through genes, dog breeders/gardeners anyone whos bred or farmed anything for the best speciment shouldn't have to much trouble beliveing that. It's if our and other creatures journeys through evolution can be proven, though theres pretty strong evidence for it.

The main thing is that the scientific evidence is pretty unbiased and continually evolving and improving, where as the creationlist movement sits still and tries to pick holes in peoples quotes and research.
 Nergal
Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 78
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/26/2008 6:25:54 PM
I dont even see why this thread is here .. the thread in religion would take days to read in its entirety. And there are a lot of really cogent arguments. Not from the creationist point of view though.
 - Hula Moo -
Joined: 9/25/2007
Msg: 79
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/27/2008 12:50:59 AM
Let me just say that as a physicist, I make a good psychologist, my knowledge is somewhat lacking. However, a thought has occurred to me, what about entropy? The entropy model argues that all things become more, not less, disordered through time. Would it not be that evolution is a contradiction to the model, in that evolution causes things to be more ordered? What do more physics minded people think? Am I way off the mark?

Like I said in an earlier post, I think an open mind is the best way forward, scientific dogma is just as blind as religious dogma.
 Nergal
Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 80
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/27/2008 2:13:15 AM
Its easy Hula .. entropy is physics .. evolution is biology .. pretty much unrelated ..
 McLovin359
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 81
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/27/2008 4:10:37 AM
I am firmly in the evolution camp, it makes sense to me that something being plant or animal that over time it will become better and more adapt to its surroundings.

But i do not knock creationism, i can see how having all the answers to all the questions of life and what happens is very comforting and would give someone great strength.

At college my best friend was very religous and i think we both found it facinating how we beleaved in such different things and what benefits and downsides to those bought us in life.

Think what you like, thought is not a crime. Impose your views on me and my own will not be mine.
 OBird
Joined: 4/3/2006
Msg: 82
view profile
History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/27/2008 5:11:44 AM
I'm an atheist (and no, I am NOT 'spritually bankrupt'!) so I believe the evolution theory.

I think that the 'Bible' and all those sort of religious books were written as a way to try to impose a certain set of moral standards and ideals upon the masses. Many of those standards are good, but many of them are outmoded and outdated, as well as missinterpreted. The 'creation' story is a way to try to explain things to people who have very little scientific knowledge (which was the case all those years ago) and in my opinion has been disproved in modern times a thousand times over.

Anyway - the bottom line is - if there did happen to be a 'god' and it was all powerful and all merciful (as claimed by Christianity) it doesn't matter whether you have been a church-goer or not, does it? After all, if you live your life in a way which causes least damage, and in a way that you feel is 'right' then this 'god' will smile fondly upon you after death, won't it? Unless its a shyte 'god' who has a problem with people not worshipping it, and has a hissy fit about anyone not giving enough Kudos and admiration, in which case I want nothing to do with it, or its followers!
 oggers
Joined: 5/10/2007
Msg: 83
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History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/27/2008 5:28:53 AM
I think that the Evolution theory was created ....... or was it that the Creationist theory evolved ...

The scientific standpoint has to be the one to follow here , for all sane individuals. Creationism cannot possibly stand up to scientific rigour.

The story of the creation in the bible is an analogy for the 4.5 billion years of evolution that preceded the gospel writers, in a way that uneducated folk could understand.

Anyway, no such thing as "god" in my opinion ....
 aitche
Joined: 12/22/2007
Msg: 84
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History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/27/2008 5:40:05 AM
Evolution for me. Lots of religions have similarities, the reason for this is that the one thing they all have in common is that they are all man-made. They're a kind of polorization of human nature. The one thing that does bother me is the lack of allowance for freedom of thought. I'm not out to change anyone's opinion, and I don't think anyone else has the right to force me to change mine. Give me the information and I'll consider it and make my own mind up, not follow what's told to me simply because I'm told to.


H.x
 sudco
Joined: 1/24/2008
Msg: 85
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/27/2008 6:06:02 AM
Both.

God created the world and the universe, and there were millions of years of evolution, dinosaurs and all the other prehistoric creatures that lived and died. Then there was a catastrophe, what we don't know, maybe the war in heaven (mentioned in an earlier posting in this thread) when lucifer was cast out of heaven to the earth, but whatever it was, it destroyed the world. Genesis 1:1 reads that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form and void. The word "was" can also be translated from the Hebrew as "became", so God created the world, but it became without form, and void.

We have no way of knowing how long the earth lay dormant, but after a time God decided to start again with the earth, and this is where the Old Testament story picks up the thread of our modern world when God said Let there be light...............

True, false; I have no idea, but it is one explanation of fossils and evidence of a world millions of years old and how it can fit in with creationism.
 MrJohnnyB
Joined: 7/15/2007
Msg: 86
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/27/2008 6:08:24 AM
Evolution makes a lot more sense to me, if god created the universe then where does he live? if God created the universe then why create a whole bunch of useless planets. Surely the fact that Humans are constantly inventing new things is a sign that we are evolving? bettering ourselves by living longer through healthier lifestyles and care, growing bigger etc etc. What's God actually ever done?
 aitche
Joined: 12/22/2007
Msg: 87
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History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/27/2008 6:18:32 AM


What's God actually ever done?


I just had a Monty Python moment...........


H.x
 Bright1Raziel
Joined: 8/20/2005
Msg: 88
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/27/2008 8:01:04 AM
I am not an evolutionist. I do not believe in evolution.

I understand evolution.

I do not believe it, I know it! For me it is not a simple case of thinking that evolution is correct, but of understanding the mechanisms and process so that there is no space for faith, only knowledge.


The 'youngest' dinosaur fossil has been carbon dated at around 65 million years.


Just a minor correction here. Carbon dating can not be used on dinosaur fossils as they are too old (C14 dating only works up to 500,000 years). The main types of dating on fossils are Potassium/Argon or Osteocalcin dating.


am certain Charles Darwin ended his days as a Christian


No, in fact Charles Darwin started his days as a Christian and even studied Philosophy and Ecumenical studies, but by the end of his life he had converted to Deism (the belief in a non-interventionist god). His apparent deathbed confession was recorded by an opponent of his theories who was not even in the same village as Darwin when he died.


The seven days of the creation are more or less in line with accepted history ie first there was nothing, then came the earth etc, leading to man on the sixth day. What if the seven days were just used as a simplified time scale?


Which seven days though? The version that is put forth in the first genesis account or the contradictory version that is put forth in the second genesis account?



Ohhh, and then they identify the age of the fossil types found by what layer they fall into. So, you date the fossil by the column and the column by the fossil! Now, I'm no expert, but that's circular logic to me!

Ohh, and then there's the rather interesting hiccups where fossilised trees grow through many whole layers! which means either the tree was buried quickly (destroying a lot of the theory behind the column) or it lasted for millenia!

Besides, IIRC, the geologic column only exists in the accepted order of layers in a handful of specific places on the planet.


Completely incorrect, five seconds of research would show you how wrong you are.

Geological strata are not identified by bio-mass contained there-in, but by the structure, size, density, and composition of the particulates that make up the strata.

Pan strata fossils are common and easily explained. The best examples are fossilised trees found on beaches. The trees have been fully fossilised whilst completely covered, then partially uncovered, then recovered and the strata solidified, and so on and so on. This process is seen on the fossilised trees on beaches, where the sand can completely cover the tree one day, and barely cover the base the next day.

There is no accepted order of layers in any place. You completely ignore the fact that there is always a balance of deposition and erosion. For example, if a beach is hit by a storm, it will be eroded away as sand is removed by the tide, but if it is lapped by gentle waves only, then deposition will occur where the sand is laid down.


Unfortunately, I can't see the effects of Evolution in the real world in the same way.

Sure, I CAN see the effects of macroevolution at work in the selective breeding within ONE species of animal (say horses or dogs), but no one's yet achieved a complete new organism, vastly different from its parents as the THEORY of Evolution suggests and proof of evolution demands!


There is no such thing as macro evolution, it is a nonsense phrase created by IDers and has no scientific meaning.

And as mater of point you can see one organism turn into a completely new one in scientific experiments. Fruit flies have been bread with no wings and an extra pair of legs on their head. That is an entirely different organism from a fly, it has 8 legs and no wings!


The entropy model argues that all things become more, not less, disordered through time. Would it not be that evolution is a contradiction to the model, in that evolution causes things to be more ordered?


Incorrect. Entropy makes no assumptions about the degree of organisation in a structure but is all about the amount of uncertainty in that structure. The best example of a highly complex structure coming from an entropic collapse is salt crystals. As water evaporates, the salt begins to form crystals until a highly complex structure has been formed from and the entropic principle is still valid.

Additionally entropy only applies to a closed system. There is additional energy entering into the bio-system from various sources, not least of which is photosynthesis of sunlight.
 MrScott
Joined: 3/20/2006
Msg: 89
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History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/27/2008 9:45:29 AM
Firstly, Evolution isnt a theory about the creation of life. It's a theory for the diversification of organsims from a few common original organisms. For all intents and purposes that we evolved from previous species is pretty much proven, any other subject that had this wealth of research and info behind it would have been accepted as near fact by now.

Theres actually a very interesting article on the current state of evolution research on the technology site ars at the moment.

http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/state-of-the-art-evolution.ars
 DeusXMachina
Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 90
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History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/27/2008 10:56:01 AM
the real difference between the two is that Evolution is a scientific theory backed up by evidence, logic, experiment and research while Creationism is a religious myth based loosely on extremely ancient religious texts which pre-date modern understanding of science

Evolutionary biology should only be 'compared' to another scientific theory, otherwise it's like trying to decide whats best out of hot air balloons and parallel parking, umbrellas or poetry, elephants and neo-keynesian economics

the two aren't comparable, they don't come from compatible backgrounds.
 Dinkie Doo
Joined: 2/21/2008
Msg: 91
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/28/2008 5:00:33 AM
Evolution all the way... It's like asking if I believe that theres a computer infront of me, or if i'm plugged into some kind of matrix type doodad where im in a dream state being one of many unconcious batteries... well if i claimed the latter, i'd probably get sectioned wouldn't i haha... and for the record i am not a paranoid schizophrenic who has mad delusions of the latter or any other kind either, so simple... evolution, it's interesting, creationism has in my opinion as much use as the story of the 3 bears, or rapunzul...


All you atheists and non believer will be sorry on judgement day. When you reach the gates of paradise, instead of going on to heaven you will be going on to purgatory, then down to hell.
I agree with Marx: Religeous convictions are the opiate of the masses... much as soap operas are too... also just because someone is athiest, doesn't make people spiritually bankrupt, just delusionally bankrupt... lol woo blacklisted from delusions... thank yooou!
 cheekycheerychick
Joined: 9/18/2007
Msg: 92
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/28/2008 5:21:54 AM
I believe in Evolution........

Science was not progressed enough at the birth of Jesus. He went on to be a very very good public speaker and maybe even an illusionist. However people decided to follow him.

Before the birth of Jesus and in far away lands people were worshipping nature.

Now I'm no expert and dont know all the facts and figures but it seems to me and after having watched a programme on The Universe on the History Channel it seems to me to be more conclusive.
I would never disrespect anyone who believes in a higher being such as the popular 'God' but it doesn't really wash with me.
I attended Church as a young girl up to the age of about 17 so could have gone either way really but I made my choice on Evolution. It all makes more sense to me.

However we did come to be it's so much bigger than us it's absolutely amazing!
 willow
Joined: 12/11/2005
Msg: 93
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/28/2008 5:34:08 AM
Its easy for me as I dont believe in God...And if there was/is such a being/person /entity( which I dont believe there is)...Why create 1 man and 1 woman and then let them interbreed...If he only created 2 people, the rest must have had sex with each other, brothers, sisters etc..

Evolution all the way for me..
 DeusXMachina
Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 94
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History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/28/2008 6:04:35 AM
Dinkie Doo

Can I just say I love the Clarkson Dance Move (Looooosers!)
Also, i think nowadays that Marx is wrong and in fact, opiates are the opiate of the masses
 BryanTee
Joined: 6/20/2007
Msg: 95
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/28/2008 10:20:27 AM
Those who believe in evolution have never come out with any concrete evidence for this , where`s the missing link? evolutionists in general do there own thing, in there eyes there is no GOD who created all things, so they can do what they like, make there own judgments, as it doesn`t matter because there is no God to answer too.
The evidence of creation you can see all around, design in nature calls for a designer, GOD.
There is a lot of facts that can prove evolution has no basis, for example the human eye has to be created whole, how can evolution no where tho put the nerve cells etc.
I once read from a renown scientist that the chances of evolution being a fact, would be like an explosion in a print factory, when everything landed the complete works of Shakespear would apear nicely stacked and shelved.
 Nergal
Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 96
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/28/2008 10:29:35 AM
Read the other thread, there are plenty of links to proof of evolution. Creationism is only for the ignorant who see evolution, or any other theory being too difficult to understand.
 - Hula Moo -
Joined: 9/25/2007
Msg: 97
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/28/2008 10:43:52 AM

I once read from a renown scientist that the chances of evolution being a fact, would be like an explosion in a print factory, when everything landed the complete works of Shakespear would apear nicely stacked and shelved.


Ah, but, just because something is very, very improbable doesn't mean it is impossible.

We don't know what spark of something or other finally 'created' life from the 'primordial soup'. We only know that, at this stage, we haven't been able to replicate it.
We don't know everything, keeping an open mind to the possibilities, together with the occasional leap of faith is the only way forward IMO.
Also, like I've said before I don't think that science and religion are mutually exclusive.
 MrDerbyMysterious
Joined: 1/28/2008
Msg: 98
view profile
History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/28/2008 10:51:35 AM
http://www.venganza.org/ - flying spaghetti monster

Evolution does not remove the possibility of a a creator, actually if god where a programmer its a good tool to make the universe develop. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory - Everything in science is a theory, nothing is 100% proved, just a theory that fits the evidenced so far. You can only prove a theory false. This is what happened with Newtons theory of gravity which was proven false by evidence and lead to General relativity replacing it.

funnily enough we arguably know more about the forces that lead to selection processes in evolution than what gravity actually *is*, however you don't get theories of "intelligent falling"

An interesting book on science, impossibilities, what is god and so on is this one:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Impossibility-Limits-Science/dp/0099772116/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204224388&sr=8-1

One interesting paragraph was this: [paraphrased by me]
"Humans are based on logic, how we organise things and try and make sense of reality.

If God is omnipotent he can do anything, thus can make 2+2 =5, therefore God is beyond our ability to comprehend him. If God cannot make 2+2=5 then he is not omnipotent and therefore not God."

Personally I don't care what people believe so long as it does not harm others, secondly Creationism/ID should only be taught in theology class not science class. Heck you want engineers to build cars you drive, planes you fly in, nuclear power stations etc based on "faith" and not true science?

End of the day anything that undermines the power base of an organisation is going to be subject to attack.

Ta.
 Nergal
Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 99
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/28/2008 11:17:24 AM
Latest work on evolution ..

http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/state-of-the-art-evolution.ars
 Tyke
Joined: 3/27/2007
Msg: 100
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 2/28/2008 11:53:46 AM
Msg 99. Newton's theory of gravity wasn't proved false, as it's still used today, it was just improved by Einstein's theory of relativity. In turn that is not perfect as such but is also being 'improved'. Evolution in my mind is self evident, but in the same fashion, the theory can be improved upon. Creationism or ID can't be improved upon but can only back track just as every other fallacy in the bible has had to back track as knowledge of our Universe is increased. The only doubt in my mind is if there is evolution then why George Bush? One certain thing is though George can't be by Intelligent Design, surely?
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