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 Kev_71
Joined: 12/18/2008
Msg: 176
Creationism or Evolution?Page 8 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
Perhaps there are elements of intelligent design and elements of evolution? Perhaps this was the plan? I think there is evidence on both sides, although I prefer a rational explanation to facts, but not always; its nice to have a bit of a mystery, othewise life would be quite dull...
If evolution and chemical chance were correct, then why bother looking at the stars and wondering if life exists on other planets? If you belive in evolution, then you would also not believe in heaven or hell? Life would be just as is, your on average 75 years would then be worth nothing ?
Why also did the ancient societies, such as the Greeks, Egyptians and Incas et al belive in higher authorities? These were intelligent societies, and thier legacy still remains today.
It poses interesting questions without a doubt...
 Andy.....
Joined: 5/13/2008
Msg: 177
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 6:16:20 AM

Why also did the ancient societies, such as the Greeks, Egyptians and Incas et al belive in higher authorities? These were intelligent societies, and thier legacy still remains today.


I think the clue is in the word "ancient"
 TM1971
Joined: 1/17/2009
Msg: 178
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 6:19:40 AM
I am in two minds being raised a christian you tend to be indoctrined that God created us and earth in 7 holy days.

In evolution which has a lot more of substantial evidence to back it up is a lot more believe worthy. But I have to believe my christian background makes me too scared to admit that i do believe in evolution. In case there is a God and he wont let me into heaven, I can not stand hot weather so will be no good in hell.
 Agapis
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 179
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 7:46:03 AM
satsumo:


All this 'We don't know for sure' stuff gives Creationism a possible validity that it shouldn't have. Yes, you could say -


"the truth is beyond our current capacity for measurement."

Does that really mean you think god might just have created the world in 7 days? .


please do not twist my quotes to defend Creationism, or Atheism.

whatever dogma you subscribe to has enabled you to completeley miss my point altogether. your knee jerk reaction to my statement without understanding it shows that you are trapped in your own reality tunnel.

you know what?i cant be bothered , just go and read "Flatland".
how can a 2 dimensional plane perceive a 3 dimensional sphere, as it passes through the plane? i'll tell you: as a series of growing 2D circles. it can only see circles, never the sphere as a whole.

our mechanical/neural/liguistic measurements define our world and universe. if its not measured, it isnt definable in science.

let me just clarify, i am AGNOSTIC, and if my measurements (i.e my sensory inputs) told me one way or the other, then i wouldnt argue.
This isnt "sitting on the fence", but lack of proof does not constitute proof itself, and any logical argument regarding the existence of a "Prime Mover" will always end up at a PARADOX...
the PARADOX being the limit of our collective measurements. or the circle trying to look at a sphere.
 heteroguy
Joined: 1/11/2009
Msg: 180
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 7:48:49 AM
"Evolution has been proven correct. Go to a dog show once in a while and witness evolution at work"


i wasn't sure if you meant this in jest? i would love for you to elaborate?
 Agapis
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 181
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 8:04:12 AM
a dog show shows the variance in species, yet shows the similarity and common ancestry of the animals.
Darwin noticed this in pidgeons (which he kept), and it was this that was the basis for his Origin of the Species.
he noticed that by breeding pidgeons with certain traits, you could breed out undesirable traits, and within a few generations have a completeley different looking creature.

same applies in a dog show. they all developed variations over time, but can be traced back to a common ancestor.

or, he may have just been saying that people who enter their pets in competitions have strayed behind on the evolutionary bell curve.
 Lliwedd
Joined: 12/26/2008
Msg: 182
view profile
History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 8:33:15 AM
Surely the 2 dimensional plane could imagine the 3 dimensional sphere, based on the series of growing 2d circles. Or it could theorize the existence of the sphere? That is, if it was sentient...

Sorry, slow day at work...
 satsumo
Joined: 12/7/2007
Msg: 183
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 9:06:34 AM

please do not twist my quotes to defend Creationism, or Atheism.

Agapis, I interpreted you post as being about creationism, rather than theism in general. The general feeling seems to be, 'if we can't measure it yet, then it might be god'. It wasn't a deliberate attempt to twist it.

Now to answer all those other questions ...
 heteroguy
Joined: 1/11/2009
Msg: 184
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 9:22:07 AM
agapis, i think the latter mate to be honest.
 Agapis
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 185
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 9:42:55 AM

Surely the 2 dimensional plane could imagine the 3 dimensional sphere, based on the series of growing 2d circles. Or it could theorize the existence of the sphere? That is, if it was sentient....


yep, thats what i said:


i'll tell you: as a series of growing 2D circles. it can only see circles, never the sphere as a whole.


and the concept behind flatland assumes that the shapes ARE sentient, for narrative purposes.
 Jim...
Joined: 9/23/2008
Msg: 186
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 10:04:28 AM
Okay, some of you are missing the point here. Darwin's theory of evolution dealt with evolution within a species, which is amply demonstrated at Crufts, but regardless of what happens to a breed of dog etc, it is still a dog. Likewise with mankind you can trace back our ancestry right back to the early hominids, from which ourselves and the apes etc descended (seperately I might add), but we are still a distinct species, going back to an original 'type'.

As yet there has been no satisfactory explanation of how the different types of creature began. We have mammals that share a common ancestry, likewise fish, birds and reptiles. There are theories of course, but proof, no. Do all these descend from a single living cell at some past point? Evolutionists say yes, creationsists say no.

The creationists argue (at least those who don't argue a literal interpretation of the bible) that God is the missing element between a group of elements and amino acids, and first life. Their second arguement is that the bible accurately portrays the sequence that the universe was created along with the development of living things in the order they appeared on earth. The Bible does describe creatures that could well be dinosaurs (and not hippos or elephants as supposed). The bible sequence is not disputed by scientists, just the timeline.

In some respects the bible is a very accurate story. We know there was a flood. It even shows that Adam and Eve weren't the first man and woman, Eve was Adam's second partner, Lilith was his first - and returned to her people who dwelled outside the garden. The Old Testament is the story of the world and of the Jews. Adam and Eve were the progenitors of the Jews, not mankind, just God's chosen people.

While I personally don't believe in God, to totally dismiss the Bible is wrong. It has a lot of value as an historical record, albeit a distorted and innacurate one. Historians and Archaeologists have confirmed much of the old testament events in relation to the Egyptians etc.

While I don't think that creationists will be left with a leg to stand on in the end, to totally dismiss the bible as a record of past events is wrong.
 andyaa
Joined: 12/20/2006
Msg: 187
view profile
History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 10:25:05 AM

In some respects the bible is a very accurate story. We know there was a flood. It even shows that Adam and Eve weren't the first man and woman, Eve was Adam's second partner, Lilith was his first - and returned to her people who dwelled outside the garden. The Old Testament is the story of the world and of the Jews. Adam and Eve were the progenitors of the Jews, not mankind, just God's chosen people.


You were doing really well up till this point Jim

You are reading too much of the King James Version of events, which, is the poorest of all the modern translations of the Old Testament.

There is no mention in the bible or anyone resembling Lilith, or Adam having a first wife. If you read the original Hebrew Old testament, up to chapter 2.4 they talk about how the universe, space, time came into being, how the earth was formed, and how animals appeared including man. From chapter 2.4 the bible then changes slightly and talks about [god] and how he made man in detail after his own image. The King James Version of the bible makes it look like 2 separate events, which of course it isn't, it is 1 event described twice.

If you want to read a little bit about Lilith try this blog page

http://ejmmm2007.blogspot.com/2006/11/lilith-semen-demon-or-feminist-icon.html

There's a lot of misunderstanding of the bible, which leads to what people come up with on here.
 satsumo
Joined: 12/7/2007
Msg: 188
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 11:12:31 AM
Well, heaterogay, me old mucker, it wasn't meant in such a literal way.

Intelligent design as a concept says that you should stop looking for answers after a certain point. That some questions are unanswerable to cause and effect.

ID started in the US. A group of creationists wanted Genesis taught in science lessons. Religion presented to children as acknowledged fact. They took a school to court over it and lost. At this point, they came up with ID, really the same idea with a scientific polish added. They took that to court and lost again. It was even shown that part of their testimony was the material used in the first trial, but with the word 'creationism' replaced with 'intelligent design'.

ID revolves around irreducible complexity - the idea that some things cannot be understood beyond a particular point. So don't bother looking, you won't find any answers, you just have to admit it was designed. Even if ID could find flaws in evolution theory, why would you believe something deliberately changed things when there is no evidence for it? Do you believe Santa Claus left you presents? There's no evidence for that either.

What is it that does this designing anyway? It's never defined. God, aliens, the tooth fairy, the flying spaghetti monster?

Imagine applying this another problem, dark matter -

Q: Why does the matter at the edge of a galaxy, spin faster than it should?
Sc: There might be dark matter at the edge of the Galaxy.
ID: Something unknown might be pushing it.
Q: Can you prove your idea?
Sc: We could look for evidence of dark matter.
ID: Erm, err, no need to prove it, it's just like that.



absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence

You're right, abscence of evidence isn't evidence of anything. It certainly isn't evidence of design.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2007/jun/01/schools.uk1

Apologies for taking liberties with your name, you started it.
 Dyk tafims
Joined: 2/4/2008
Msg: 189
view profile
History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 11:35:52 AM
years ago they laughed at people who said the earth was round.this has now been proven to be correct.
years ago some old codgers made up some rather far fetched stories and called it a bible. this has now been proven to be a load of codswollop.
Please get real.
 andyaa
Joined: 12/20/2006
Msg: 190
view profile
History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 11:47:42 AM
Between 1917 to the 1960s there had been no less than a dozen versions or theories of the universes. All of them had been proposed on some extents with mathematical support.

There was the Static Einstein Universe,
The De sitter Universe,
The Lemaitre Universe
as well as some versions and variations of Friedmann Universes ...
and many others, such as the T. Gold/F. Holye Steady State Universe,

but now only a couple of them are left under discussions...

There are also 5 versions of String Theory with 5 versions of mathematics. Thanks to Minkowski who started the 4th dimension, now these String Theories can suggest that the universe may have extra dimensions ranging from 10, 11 to even 26 dimensions.

Get real, science has got no more idea on how we got here or how the universe works anymore than the church has.
 heteroguy
Joined: 1/11/2009
Msg: 191
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 11:59:54 AM
satsuma, i went out and got very drunk last night, then i had a very hot curry on the way home (i think), when i got in someone was having a bath so i couldn't get in the khazi and i just fell asleep in my armchair....when i awoke this morning there was some dark matter encrusted in the gusset of my calvin klein's, do you think intelligent design was responsible for this? i've been pondering this all day....heterogay.
 cheekyjules
Joined: 1/25/2008
Msg: 192
view profile
History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 12:04:57 PM
DYK

Rather an arrogant statement to make when you cant prove it.



i've been pondering this all day....heterogay


LOL spellcheck Hetro x
 Agapis
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 193
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 12:49:39 PM
Spaghetti monster?
ah, the God of Richard Dawkins circle jerk/fanclub.

"Dark Matter" is just as vague as "God".

In fact, i hope it is God, and it's coming to stomp on Dawkins.
 Simply_Because
Joined: 3/21/2007
Msg: 194
view profile
History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 12:52:51 PM

i wasn't sure if you meant this in jest? i would love for you to elaborate?

What Agapis said was accurate but I was referring to when breeders breed dogs of desirable qualities with dogs of similarly desirable qualities. They typically end up with a high quality pedigree. This is called natural selection - although, obviously, in this instance the dogs' choice is not natural.

The reason why dogs don't evolve in to other species is because they don't have to - they have people who feed them and heal them and have no need to evolve further. There is some evidence of this with dogs that would clearly not survive if left to nature's whim: minuscule dogs, dogs with short legs and dogs with short snouts. These dogs are not designed for survival in the wild but are kept in existence thanks to humanity's helping hand.
 SpeedBird1979
Joined: 6/19/2008
Msg: 195
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 12:57:51 PM

"Dark Matter" is just as vague as "God".


Not really. The effects of dark matter are observable.
 Kev_71
Joined: 12/18/2008
Msg: 196
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 1:05:22 PM

Not really. The effects of dark matter are observable.


Yes, there are the Satanic Sluts for example...
xx
 andyaa
Joined: 12/20/2006
Msg: 197
view profile
History
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 1:19:52 PM

Not really. The effects of dark matter are observable


This is going to get fun...

They have a theory called the big bang...but then they need another theory to support this called the expanding universe...but the numbers don’t add up...so they need another theory so they come up with dark matter to explain a theory to explain a theory lol and they call the bible screwed up pmsfl

Now of course they have to come up with a theory to support 'dark matter' because 'dark matter' doesn't do everything as expected...see a pattern yet.
 Agapis
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 198
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 1:30:07 PM
yes i do. this is my point.
our knowledge expands as our ability to measure/justify things does.

and i wasnt talking about effects.

im talking about vague descriptions, and the comparison between the term "dark matter" and the word "God".
 LastoftheGentlemen
Joined: 4/17/2008
Msg: 199
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 1:40:04 PM
"Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it. ... Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory"

Hmm... as an atheist by definition I don't believe in God, therefore I also don't believe in Satan (the antithesis of God), so how could I believe in one of his theories? Doesn't make any logical sense. And for the record it's quite possible to be both spiritual and an atheist. Personally I find them complimentary rather than counterproductive, whereas it's some (not all, by any means) of the deeply religious who I actually find 'spiritually bankrupt' and mindlessly accepting of 'speculative philosophy'.

This is a debate about nothing, and a debate about the meaning of life, God and the universe, at the same time. It's a bit pointless because you'll get three parties who won't budge:

1. The annally retentative pseudo scientists who prattle on about why Darwinism proves that God can't possibly exist. Which is clearly complete cods. Darwin's theory of evolution (from which most of our modern ideas of evolution are derived) does not imply that God (or Gods) does not exist, it's a rationale scientific theory and has nothing to do with religion at all. It simply states that one THEORY about how life has developed on this planet is the process which we choose to call evolution. I happen to think it's a very good theory, you have the right to disagree if you want, I won't hate you for it, or think you're an idiot. As the name implies it is just a theory.

2. The equally obtuse and strangely defensive God squad who rant about how anyone who believes in evolutionary theory is the spawn of Satan and that everything recorded in one version (of thousands) of a highly edited and rewritten ancient book IS correct in a totally literal and humourless way. I don't believe in God, but if I did I'd find it hard to believe he didn't have a sense of humour... Besides why couldn't God have invented the process of evolution? It's a clever idea, he wanted to create man (so we're told), maybe he thought evolution was the right way to do it? Don't you think us mere mortals are getting a bit presumptive if we start assuming we understand God's plans?

3. The rest of us, who really don't care what you think so long as you let me believe what I want to and don't force my child(ren) to believe in anything without making their own minds up first.

Religion and Science have nothing to do with each other, one is based entirely on emotion and belief, the other is based entirely on logic and proof. Some of the best scientists I've known (I am a scientist) have also been highly religious, the two are not contradictory.
 SpeedBird1979
Joined: 6/19/2008
Msg: 200
Creationism or Evolution?
Posted: 1/28/2009 1:44:00 PM

They have a theory called the big bang...but then they need another theory to support this called the expanding universe...


The universe is expanding universally in all directions - that is an established fact. It is therefore reasonable to surmise that at some finite time in the past the universe originated from a single point. The Big Bang theory wasn't suggested until after the expansion of the universe had been observed.

If you want to see and hear some pretty strong evidence that the Big Bang occurred simply leave a television set or radio tuned between stations.
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