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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 10/30/2007 9:16:12 AM | as Arthur Schopenhauer said - "All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is
accepted as being self-evident. " .
I find this most revealing to say the least. Ridicule was the first step in your approach by your ad hominem tactic in forming your argument (deaf ears, mangina)
And lets also point out something else since ad hominem is in play here, about your iconoclastic soothsayer, who you seem so impressed with. Isn't he the same man who had an adversarial relathionship (fued actually) with a woman his entire adult life? And what about his most famous quote of all "woman is by nature meant to obey"
I leave it at that.
As for the rest of this whole thread twisting into some hate fest. Is there any validity on all points made, certainly. But all I can see are reactions that are fear based. Fear of change, fear of being emasculated, fear of losing an advantage. I'm surprised to see those who seem the type that would easily embrace the "Darwinian" concept of "Survival of the fittest", yet be afraid of changes in society that requires one to either adapt, evolve, or to become extinct (aka Social Darwinism). Accusing others of becoming emotional when the only one recognizable is based on fear.
Whining and complaining about things that change are a waste of my time and effort. Im sure the Neandetrals weren't too happy when the little four foot Hominids made their world more complex by competing on a whole different level. What ever hapened to them?  Discrimination is a part of life, it happens to us all the time, and its not just gender or race based. If I get into a bar fight with a guy half my size, I know no matter who's at fault, Im the one going to jail. So Ill adapt and take my fight before the judge where the fight will be even again. But to take it personally to the point where it allows one to lose their own composure or to shed all things that they consider virtues of self, are to me the most self-depricating things of all. So regardless if I see woman as an adversary in society or not, next time I will still hold a door. Just as I would shake the hand of an opponent in a competitive sport. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 10/30/2007 5:29:43 PM | | No one's "afraid of changes in society" or of adapting/evolving, since the latter can quite easily accommodate the shedding of outdated concepts such as chivalry in place of better ideas like equality. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 10/30/2007 6:29:13 PM | Don't care. It's what I do, for good or ill and Honor's Folly be damned.
It's not just a behavior pattern...it's a way of life. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 10/30/2007 6:51:57 PM | Hello!
Very interesting topic.
First of all (quick history lesson lol.) the word chivalry comes from the French word "cheval" which means horse,which then progressed to the French word "chevalier" which means a gallant knight or "cavalier" gentleman until it became known as chivaly/chivalrous: The ideal knight...gallant,courteous,generous,brave.
It is the noblest and the best qualities of what a man should be and what woman would not want these qualities in "her" man?
Theirs an old saying which goes "chivalry is not dead it just lies dormant in the hearts of good men".
Now as to wether your "date" is chivalrous or not just hang back for a minute to say let him get out of the car and get to the car door for you or stand on the sidewalk waiting either way you'll have your answer.
Myself I was raised by the "old code ".....you treat a woman like a lady and with respect which means you act like a gentleman even if she is the"date" from hell!lol.
Hope this helps ya girl!
P.S. sorry adout the history lesson it's kind of a passion of mine.....come from a long line of knights.
Pagasus. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 10/30/2007 10:33:28 PM | I've never cared for the term "chivalry". Says to me tradition, rules, etiquite. A place for those obviously but I think a woman deserves to be thought of more than that. In place of chivalry I like to pick those things that others consider chivalry and simply apply them where common sense dictates.
These are some examples which may be considered chivalrous but to me make no sense:
A woman sitting in the car waiting for her beau to scurry around the car and open her door after parking. Hey, the movies about to begin. Go grab us a place in line.
Grabing a woman by the arm and directing her to our table. If she can't find the way how am I going to? Besides, aren't we following the hostess anyway?
There are more but I'm about to puke.
Here are some things that may be considered chivalrous and yet make sense. But a short qualification first. Women are the fairer, not weaker, sex. They are more prone to harm not just because of thier size and relative physical frailty compard to men but because my lady may be wearing sexy but very awkward to walk in heels and perhaps a hip and thigh hugging tight skirt. She is going through this torture for me so I will:
Always follow her up a flight of stairs and preceed her going down. Not unreasonble to expect that she might trip and fall. If she does, I'll be there.
Always walk between her and the curb on a sidewalk. Especially if it's been raining. Cars do splash through puddles and I don't have to look at me but don't want to be looking at her with mud all over her at the dinner table. She cleaned up just for me. Let's keep her that way.
Then there are those things that are chivalrous, don't make much sense but I do it anyway. This, just because I'm honored that she is giving me her time.
Always hold the door open when I can beat her to it. Including the car door when approaching it. May not wait to shut it though. Depends. Depends on what? Hmm. Not sure, just depends I guess.
Always hold her chair as she is seating herself. Not going to actually move it though. Let her do that. I can be a real clutz and don't want to take the chance of dumping her on a restaraunt floor. Not good.
If she gets up to go to the ladies room, I stand. Sort of anyway. Sometimes it's more of a rock forward in my chair but still, I'm ackowledging that she is about to leave and I understand. Not sure why this is important. Guess there's still some things that dad did for mom so there must be something to it.
When she comes back from the ladies room, it's back behind her chair again as outlined above. She'll probably say, "Please don't get up" or something anyway so you likely can skate on this one and still build some points.
Of course she walks before me always other than the stairs thing. I don't really know why this matters but it sure pisses some of them off if I get out front.
And if I've done a good job of all of this there is the possibility of two rewards comming my way. One, she invites me in for coffee at the end of the evening. And two, she just might offer to pick up the check next time. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 10/30/2007 10:34:13 PM |
And lets also point out something else since ad hominem is in play here, about your iconoclastic soothsayer, who you seem so impressed with. Isn't he the same man who had an adversarial relathionship (fued actually) with a woman his entire adult life? And what about his most famous quote of all "woman is by nature meant to obey"
I leave it at that.
Which, of course, amounts to an ad hominem abusive/ad personam. Simply because Schopenhauer has been criticized for his character flaws/views doesn't mean that the truths of an observation holds no weight. Maybe it actually does.
Not to mention he also, apparently made the quote, "I believe that if a woman succeeds in withdrawing from the mass, or rather raising herself above the mass, she grows ceaselessly and more than a man." Yes, good old Arthur was harsh on womandom, but gave credit where credit was due. While he also believed that women were generally more compliant than men due to sociobiology, he made the case they were usually more empathetic, although this had a weak side, as anyone too understanding of supporting faults of others might entail.
BTW, as far as the women you state he had "an adversarial relationship (feud actually) with a woman his entire life?" Are you seriously going to base his alleged misogynistic views on women simply because of Caroline Marquet? Perhaps so, because Marquet continued to provoke Schopenhauer until one day, he pushed her. That's right: he pushed her (and that's it)---and had to make payments for a brief altercation for 20 years until her death. I think I'd be a little upset for a such a minor assault that carried a lengthy penalty. Oh yeah, he had a loving relationship with Caroline Richter for many years despite is wariness of marriage, and even though he was damning of certain female behavior, praised Madame de Guyon---a woman, BTW, whose writings he relished.
Oops, Dayfriend.
Discrimination is a part of life, it happens to us all the time,
And no man should have to endure or accept it, socially, sexually, legally, financially.
But to take it personally to the point where it allows one to lose their own composure or to shed all things that they consider virtues of self, are to me the most self-depricating things of all.
You took that label of mangina personally. And yeah, if you're going to defer to women at expense of your rights, expect more discrimination you claim that you would fight against legally. Think about it.
I'm surprised to see those who seem the type that would easily embrace the "Darwinian" concept of "Survival of the fittest", yet be afraid of changes in society that requires one to either adapt, evolve, or to become extinct.
False dichotomy. If anything, those "changes in society" could be regressive, semi-primitive, or maladaptive in nature in that's what he's protesting against. If anything, from a Herbert Spencer-like point of view, it could be argued that social process is in jeopardy and that Galton was right about that the survival of the fittest being not fatalist or deterministic. But hey, who says mediocrity hasn't come to roost? | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 10/31/2007 1:46:26 AM | | ^^^Its pretty apparent you are clueless as to what I actually was saying. But that's ok, Im happy with the way things are, hope you're happy too. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 10/31/2007 2:40:19 AM |
^^^Its pretty apparent you are clueless as to what I actually was saying. But that's ok, Im happy with the way things are, hope you're happy too.
You can always cop out if you are not capable of even remotely abiding by the basic tenets of debate.
Go back to the kiddie pool. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 10/31/2007 3:18:26 AM | I ll trade you an orange for that apple. But really, I dont have the energy nor the desire to try and make you reach a level of thought you clearly have no room for amongst all that fear driven and paranoid passion you try to disguise with so called talking points. Im speaking interpersonal and you're speaking about who knows what. I dont share in you're fear and hostility, I'll pass and watch you be miserable about things you have no control over. But I guess we all have to learn when to grow up at our own pace.
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 10/31/2007 3:40:26 AM | I didn't want to read 6 pages of stuff as my reply opinion may have already been voiced.
I am NOT the kind to open a car door, pull out a chair, etc. I think that stuff is too old fashion. Plus if you can't open you own car door or pull out your own chair are you that lazy? Why can't you do it yourself? I AM the kind though that would do what I could to make a girl feel comfy like if we were watching a movie "Are you too cold? I'll get you a blanket" " Is it too hot? " "Are you thirsty? I can get you a water" Or if we were outside and you looked chilly I'd say "Hey want my jacket?" Or if i wasn't wearing one I'd be like "hey want my shirt?" And then I'd give you my shirt, leaving me without one, hoping I had a spare in my car! | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 10/31/2007 9:42:07 PM | Dayfriend, give it up. The "paranoia" you speak of is probably either a self-projection, a sad attempt to make yourself look good.
You're out.
Adieu. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/1/2007 8:27:18 AM | [you use the heart and the mind]
[a challenge to those rights or as a setback to my own]
Perfect! Very well said on both counts. If we could only treat each other the way we would like to be treated life would be a bit nicer. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/1/2007 8:52:27 AM | | Chivalry isn't entirely dead. In these PC times, I just use it very, very selectively. If you want to be my equal, you aren't allowed to get angry if I don't treat you like a femme fatale. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/4/2007 10:09:47 PM | | Chivalry is dead. The problem with it is that it's all about unsubstantiated gender-based entitlement, which has no place in an equal society. Chivalry differs from civility, which is a two-way street of considerate, generous behaviour. Civility is bereft of gender-based entitlement and I’m a strong advocate for this type of behaviour. We should do nice things for each other, perform acts of kindness to all people, and treat others the way you wish to be treated (regardless of gender). Both men and women should always hold a door for someone behind them when entering a building. Women should never stand by a door and wait for a man to open it. She should open it and extend the courtesy to the man behind her. No woman should ever expect a man to stand up and give her the last bus seat, but she should give her seat to someone that is “disabled” in some form (albeit elderly, pregnant, injured, ect). A healthy female adult is completely capable of putting on her own coat and she should do so herself. If she believes that such gestures are an act of kindness, than she should offer the same to others. Both men and women should buy gifts for the people that they love. Women should never expect this to be a one-way endeavour – they too, need to be creative, spontaneous, and giving to the man that they love. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/4/2007 10:20:45 PM | I tend to go light on the chivalry, I mean come on, the whole gender equality movement thing... if women can work just as well as men (which indeed they can with some minor exceptions relating to physical labour, but then again you make better linguists), women can also open doors just as well as men.  | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/14/2007 7:53:42 PM | Bottom line:
If we all went a little out of our way to be nice to our fellow humans, we would all be happier. As humans we are designed on a very primal level to be connected to a "tribe" or "village" of people. We have become beehives of isolated individuals. If a little chivalry can make us feel human again, then we need more of it. Of course it must be sincere, not the prelude to stalking. I also don't think it is right for it to be expected. I think Curls has the right attitude. The rest of you need to lighten up. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/14/2007 9:31:52 PM | I wouldn't say I'm chivalrous in the traditional sense. I think women are plenty capable of opening their own car door, unless it's a special occasion and I wanna be kinda fancy and romantic, except I will occasionally do the chair thing. As far as holding open restaurant doors and such, well, that's just politeness in my book, I do that for anyone and wouldn't mind the same in return, and even though it's not required a woman 'going dutch' from time to time is appreciated, especially if she is making her own money.
I think most men (not a very high percentage though) are like me: polite, but not going to bend down and put their coat in mud so it doesn't get on your shoes. Polite and well mannered is the new chivalrous in my book, and I think it's a good balance point between old and modern times. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/15/2007 12:23:07 AM | I don't see it DEAD.
I see it being used by shady people and then it not being appreciated after the woman has experienced it in a negative light.
It should be appreciated, I don't mean in a sexual way. I mean it should be respected. Should make the woman feel like acting like a WOMAN. Respectful of herself and the man she chose to accompany.
But that's just me. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/15/2007 7:46:12 AM | OK okie here's my thing. First, I am not chivalrous as an effort for you. I am who I am and agree w/it being a lifestyle thing.
Secondly, My chivalry is more a reflection of my upbringing and the honor and respect for my family and heritage.
Third, Super feminist w/an attitude is going to get the same treatment as Miss Southern Belle Betty friggin Crocker.
Chivalry and etiquette are learned traits and are gifts to the women of the world from my mother as honored by her son. The extra things I do for my girl are unique to our relationship.
The problem as I see it is as society has changed, tradition and courtesy have been lost.
Lastly, could all you people spend just a moment of time to learn to spell. For God's sake there is spell check as well. You can see the difference between typos and intellect. OK off my soapbox now. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/15/2007 8:07:20 AM | message # 60
There is a man that I know who teaches kids about chivalry by dressing up as a knight and going to places like schools, libraries, parties, etc. and telling children stories. His name is Karl Kindt III and he has a website that I think everyone should visit to read why he became a knight.
Just for a little example of his chivalry, I will let you know that he carries with him a lock of his wifes hair wherever he goes to remind him to be true and stay faithful. This guy is the real deal and a role model for myself, though I have only met him a few times.
PLEASE READ THIS:
http://www.knightforhire.com/whyknght.html
How wonderful. I cannot wait to take my children to this castle next summer!
My ex husband is a good man. However, he was not very chivalrous. We divorced when our son was only 4 yrs old. (not because he wasn't chivalrous...LOL)
When my son was 6, he began to run to the door before I could get there to hold it open for his sister and I. He also wanted to open my car door for me, as well as close it! (I wasn't really happy about this one, as I wanted to make sure he was safely strapped into his booster seat!)
His father had never done these things for me, so I wondered where he had learned them? I asked him one day, and he told me that's what "...a man's supposed to do.”
On a side note, I had skin cancer when he was 5 and had 50 stitches in my face. I was feeling quite melancholy while I was giving him a bath; he looked up at me and said, "You're the most beautiful mommy in the world." I had several miscarriages before he was born...and truly believe that God sent him to me to help me with the dark times in my life.
Chilvary does exist...and for some, it comes naturally.
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/25/2007 10:40:26 AM | Good on you who practise what we were taught. . Chivalry is a old way of showing you care about a complete stranger. Recently i had a lady comment on my chivalious manner: i walked to a mall entrance, i heard footsteps behind me ,about 15 steps, so when opened the door ,i waited for this unknown person to arrive at the door, held open the door for her and also the inside door. As she passed this lady gave me the once over, (as to see who the enemy might be, this comes from medival times when you would upon passing someone make eye contact to see who your enemy might be). She said thank you and that she was impressed that some of us men would take time to acknowledge another person an hold open the door. I said you are most welcome and immediately felt ten feet taller with that acknowledgment. I do the same for all jenders. This mannerism is something to teach our younger generation, if they will take the time to watch and accept. Allways make eye contact and smile,"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", it only takes but a moment of your time to change a life time of someone else....T.R.7 | |
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