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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/26/2007 8:03:13 AM | . with this said I will get to my point... I dated one guy that was VERY chivalrous but I wouldn't let him be... . I don't require chivalry at all... just don't know how to deal with a situation without lookin silly...it's not like u can openly ask are you chivalrous or not?
At some level, opening doors and giving a woman your jacket when you are cold, etc are simply signs of affection and manners. If you take out the feminist/gender conflict issues, it boils down to people trying to show others that they care.
I guess a woman could take it as "Well he's trying to subjugate me and keep me barefoot in the kitchen!" But I think, at some point, people have to be realistic and accept that the guy is probably trying to make a good first impression and is doing his best to show he has some etiquette.
Is it a very smart move as a woman to tell a guy to be less polite and to try to make less of a positive impression?
People who do the little things also tend to do the big things. The guy who calls you when he says he will call you is also the guy who will be there for you when you are sick and feverish. The guy who takes the time to shine his shoes and be well groomed and on time for your first date is also the guy who stands a better chance of putting out his best effort to always keep fit and healthy and attractive for you. The list goes on and on, little things matter because they are clues to how people will react to the big things.
Yet again, women have simply screwed themselves over wholesale on another "equality" issue.
Positive behavior should be encouraged, not shamed. Someone trying to open a door for you is ultimately someone who probably is just trying to show he cares, and if you shut that down, you are telling him indirectly that you will shut down other positive behaviors on his part as well. You are indirectly telling him there is no upside and no point in engaging in any activity where he actually shows he cares about you. And ladies, who loses out in the end of that scenario? Him? Or you?
Are you ladies sure you want pure "equality"? Are you absolutely sure?
This is the world with "equality" for you:
Valentines Day? Go screw yourself and buy your own flowers and candy. In fact, why aren't you buying me roses and chocolates?
Engagement ring? Go screw yourself and buy me one too, it's "equal"
Car needs an oil change? Go screw yourself and get under the hood, here are some rags and a filter for you.
Someone breaks into the house? Go screw yourself and here's a handgun, you go confront him.
Something heavy to be lifted? Go screw yourself and remember to lift with your legs!
Ask you out on a date? Go screw yourself because being "equal" means I will only date people who pursue me first just like you.
Won't date a guy shorter than you? Go screw yourself because now all men will only desire women who are taller than us, that's "equality"
Go screw yourself. Go screw yourself. Go screw yourself. That's what it means to be equal.
If a guy is trying to show he cares and he's trying to make a positive impression and he's trying to do his best to be with you, and you shut him down and yap at him for opening a door, guess what?
You just screwed yourself. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/26/2007 8:11:36 AM |
Is it a very smart move as a woman to tell a guy to be less polite and to try to make less of a positive impression? Ultimate, this thought process is one of the most curious I think I've encountered. I've experienced something in the neighborhood of a half-dozen women who told me that they don't want to date/relate/rub body parts further because [and I morph their comments into one paraphrase here] "You're too good to me/I don't deserve you." After I replied, "Yes, that's probably true," then I thought about the hidden meaning(s). | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/26/2007 11:55:01 AM | Here's the thing, UHS, it's not as though they weren't informed about what would happen...
"...as women shake off their ancient disabilities they will also shake off some of their ancient immunities, and their doings will come to be regarded with a soberer and more exigent scrutiny than now prevails. The extension of the suffrage, I believe, will encourage this awakening; in wresting it from the reluctant male the women of the western world have planted dragons' teeth, which will presently leap up and gnaw them. Now that women have the political power to obtain their just rights, they will begin to lose their old power to obtain special privileges by sentimental appeals. Men, facing them squarely, will consider them anew, not as romantic political and social invalids, to be coddled and caressed, but as free competitors in a harsh world. When that reconsideration gets under way there will be a general overhauling of the relations between the sexes." - H.L. Mencken (1922)
It is a bit amazing to see how many are holding on to being "social invalids". | |
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Jemue
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Joined: 1/26/2005
Msg: 155 | |
| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/26/2007 12:25:06 PM | It is still there, a lot of women don't know how to handle it though as they think it infers that the man is doing something because he believes they are weak or need help, I've seen some very angry and hostile reactions to something as simple as holding a door open first hand.
There are a lot of gentlemen in this world, though then tend to wait till they know that they are dealing with a lady before treating her as such I'd think.
It's part of the change in balance, you can't have the good with out the bad, and removing some of the bad removes some of the good in the march towards a balanced neutrality. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/26/2007 3:37:38 PM | My view:
There was once an unspoken arrangement between men and women. Chivalry was apart of it. That unspoken arrangement has been broken.
Now there are just those that cling to it, rather than those that live an a society dominated by it.
To say that word conjures to people the idea of opening doors, and holding chairs, but to the extent to which it really works out as. A sort of half chivalry. As if that wasnt enough to treat woman with such archaic methods may well get a man a kick somewhere.
Would you be so quick to open a door for her to get out of the car if you thought you would get hit in some equally sensitive area? If not hit, a venomous ear bashing?
Also is it wise to encourage a woman to feel entitled to all, when she may well give so little back? You OP may not be of such character, but there are enough out there that are to turn many a man off it. Consider these words I suspect I may have something there, then again I may not. This is but one point of view I can see, there are many more.
Yet there does seem to be something of a secret longing for such times, such days, does there not? | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/26/2007 3:47:13 PM | I would not say that I am chivalrous. I hold doors open for people, men & women. I give up my seat for an aging man or woman, a pregnant woman, or someone with a child. The way I understand it, chivalry was a custom to protect the weak, feed the hungry, and to help the helpless. So, whenever it is not a major stretch, I do it, or if it is absolutely necessary. But I don't do it to impress someone, and as today, women have equal rights to men, I don't do it for women, unless they are in need.
If that makes me unchivalrous, then I would rather be known as kind to people in need. | |
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Jemue
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Joined: 1/26/2005
Msg: 158 | |
| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/26/2007 3:48:05 PM | Would you be so quick to open a door for her to get out of the car if you thought you would get hit in some equally sensitive area? If not hit, a venomous ear bashing?
Unfortunately that is the more common behaviour than not, hence why guys tend to do it less.
Though that's a gender context, I believe the essence of chivalry is respect for others.
It's the cost of a more level playing field between the genders, respect goes both ways and that needs to be understood and not demanded & expected.
Yet there does seem to be something of a secret longing for such times, such days, does there not?
It was a understood and defined context to behave with in, so people felt happy knowing what is going on.
That context had some aspects that not all were happy with so it was changed, as did the behaviours and expectations. Removing the bad and indignantly demanding all of the good isn't a balance as there is no humility acceptance or understanding, hence why it's diminishing in that context. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/26/2007 9:53:58 PM | | How about a female? I appreciate the consideration, just as if I made it to the door first I'd hold it for a man. It's all about respect and consideration. Unfortunately there isn't enough to go around. I'd share my coat if we were cold,rub your arms and or neck and shoulders,put my hands on your ears. The body heat, ya know. If a male doesn't show me respect then I know he isn't worth anymore of my time. I'm special and only date men that are also. I deserve to be treated right and would do the same for my partner. This in my opinion is why the world is going to Hell in a hand basket. Majority of people have the "ME,ME" attitude, instead of just showing a little consideration or respect. What does that teach the kids? Screw everyone else,and if someone makes you made shoot them. All for the respect that holding a door, buttering someones bread, etc....guess I'm sentimental, and plan to stay that way. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/27/2007 3:39:29 AM | I've never considered the idea behind feminism a bad idea. Equal opportunity for women, which I'm 100% behind. Its a terrible name however, an equvilant to it would be a pro-ice cream rights group calling their movement "Vanilla is the Best".
I don't feel that gestures of kindness fall under the oppression of the women. Granted, some are perhaps more then happy to jump on the "undertones" of male superiority given off by doing things for a women.
Still doing something for someone to be nice is totally different then doing something for someone who you think can't do it for themselves. Apperantly doors used to be really, really heavy back in the day...
But as far as the op is concerned, let the guy have a chance to show his character. Its not a horrible thing to be, or not to be chivalrious imo. Its just a matter of how one was raised. So long as he treats you with the respect ever human being should be treated with, its all fair.
If your curious as to what I do, it really depends on the women. Some deserve nothing but a cold stare from me, while others deserve the sweetest treatment I can offer them. It is fairly upsetting however when I feel like being chivalrious and the girl won't let me, but I usually get over it and try to find new ways to express my appreciation for her. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/27/2007 3:58:04 AM | My opinion on chivalry, it is very well much alive.....both sexes are chivalarous.
I had a lady open the door for me and i stood up for a lady, so she could sit down.....and if iam been chivalarous and the lady doesn't like it.....well, I just tell her to go and kiss my.........ummmmm errr face | |
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Jemue
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Joined: 1/26/2005
Msg: 162 | |
| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/27/2007 1:13:44 PM | If a male doesn't show me respect then I know he isn't worth anymore of my time.
Who goes first ? The opening point of this thread is that it should be the guy giving all the time regardless of the woman being a lady or at least gracious etc.
My point is that it is for both people.
Majority of people have the "ME,ME" attitude, instead of just showing a little consideration or respect.
As a lot of women demand "where are all the gentlemen, I deserve to be treated like a princess, me, me, me ......" without the balance to that, which is their own behavoiur.
Like all things it's a balance.
My opinion on chivalry, it is very well much alive.....both sexes are chivalarous.
Indeed, there are some shining examples of both out there, and when they meet it's a lovely thing, opposed to having one side wholly expectant without some introspective thought first.
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 11/27/2007 4:46:19 PM | chivalry is alive as far as i'm concerned. i will fight for a womans honour, open doors hold chairs, insist on paying, and always let her win arguments.  | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 1/27/2008 6:35:47 PM | I curse feminism for destroying chivalry! I call that friendly fire!
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I do not. Chivalry reduces women to the status of property and the duel for a ladys "honour" is in fact a gang fight over turf with the women being the piece of turf fought over.
Where I do curse feminsm is its disgusting atempt at making rudeness and disrrespect socially acceptable. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 1/27/2008 6:39:42 PM | chivalry is alive as far as i'm concerned. i will fight for a womans honour, open doors hold chairs, insist on paying, and always let her win arguments
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Under the laws of chivaly you fight for owndership of a woman. Not her "honour"
Under the laws of chivaliry she is not entitled to own or handle money so you have to pay for her.
Under the laws of chivalry, if she starts an argumet, then you are expectecd to beat the hysterical woman to her senses with a cane. But a cane no thicker than your thumb. Thats where the "rule of thumb" came from. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 1/28/2008 1:11:03 PM | It is still there, a lot of women don't know how to handle it though as they think it infers that the man is doing something because he believes they are weak or need help, I've seen some very angry and hostile reactions to something as simple as holding a door open first hand.
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I have SEEN (past tense) some hostile reactions over the years but there's a new generatin of women these days who do appreciate the diffeerences between sexism , chivalary (whatever that is) and common courtesy.
I found this last week when I was unable to drive due to a broken arm. Travelling by train, wiht my arem in a sling, several women offered me a seat. I turned them down becasue my legs were fine and there was a greater risk of bumping my poor tender arm into something, or somebody, when seated. But it did reflect a change in attitudes. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 1/28/2008 1:36:14 PM | | i think chivalry is pretty lame, im looking for a partner not a pet. thats not to say im against doing nice things for her or opening doors and such, but if its a constant expectation, no thanks. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 1/28/2008 2:30:33 PM | chivalry is dead. dead in the that the definition of it that derived from the medieval times no longer exists. now-a-days its just more politeness and common sense.
if you look at my profile, you'll see i have the word 'Honor' in a tattered old banner across my back. this represents this very concept, to me. 'Honor' or chivalry is a dying moral/value in this world, not many people care about it or are willing to live by it anymore.
with that said, i consider myself a pretty honorable and chivalrous person. but im not going to lay my coat in the mud for a woman, she can use her common sense and walk around the mud. im not going to race out of my car to her side to open her door, thats just silly. she isnt weak and waiting in the car while i come open the door for her is a waste of time. im not going to order food for her, because i dont know what she feels like eating at that particular moment in time. i WILL however open the restaurant door for her, or hold it open if shes lagging a few steps behind.
theres 1600's chivalry, which pretty much leaves the woman (i think) feeling useless and weak, and then theres 21st century chivalry which is pretty much just boiled down to being polite. and as mentioned prior in this thread, chivalry shouldnt be limited to the male gender. women have the ability to be courteous and polite just the same, having a penis doesnt dictate who opens the door. its all just about common sense and how you use it. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 1/28/2008 8:28:16 PM | Honestly, women killed chivalry. Most women will tell you that they don't want a man to open a door, flowers, etc.. They want to appear so strong and independent that they don't want a man to do anything for them that shows a bit of chivalry on the guy's part.
Needless to say, unless the woman comes right on out and says she hates that stuff, I'll still open car doors, building doors, and send flowers just for the heck of it. That's just how I was raised. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 1/28/2008 8:58:44 PM | | I open doors for people when it's reasonable to do so. No running from 20 feet away to beat you there and open it, but if I'm close to the door and someone else is, I'll hold it for them. I'll go more out of my way for 'that special someone' though. Let them in the vehicle first, stuff like that. I won't fight over it though. It's just something nice to do for people. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 1/28/2008 9:55:53 PM |
Valentines Day? Go screw yourself and buy your own flowers and candy. In fact, why aren't you buying me roses and chocolates?
Engagement ring? Go screw yourself and buy me one too, it's "equal"
Car needs an oil change? Go screw yourself and get under the hood, here are some rags and a filter for you.
Someone breaks into the house? Go screw yourself and here's a handgun, you go confront him.
Something heavy to be lifted? Go screw yourself and remember to lift with your legs!
Ask you out on a date? Go screw yourself because being "equal" means I will only date people who pursue me first just like you.
Won't date a guy shorter than you? Go screw yourself because now all men will only desire women who are taller than us, that's "equality"
Why oh why do men go on as if this stuff was difficult?
The only reason I don't do my own heavy lifting is because my legs are damaged. My mother does it for me. The rest of it? Come on, an oil change? I learned how to do those when I was 17. If someone breaks into the house, it's been just me for about a decade now, and who in their right mind goes and confronts a burglar with a freakin' handgun?
I grow roses. I make candy. I buy or make my own jewelry and prefer it that way, as I'm extremely picky.
This stuff is either unnecessary, not rocket science, or can be outsourced. Nobody is screwed here.
The idea that chivalry's death is bad comes from the vastly mistaken notion that it's the only possible thing men could bring to the table, the only thing they had that women might want. Has its absence left a puzzling vacuum? Sure, but that doesn't mean it's bad. It just means it's puzzling. Personally, I was never raised to expect any extraordinary courtesy from men, so the absence of it doesn't bother me. There's no loss involved here.
I hold doors for everyone, including men. It freaks them out, which says a great deal about the power dynamics involved in holding doors. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 1/28/2008 11:00:18 PM |
Why oh why do men go on as if this stuff was difficult?
If it's not reciprocated or appreciated, why bother.
UHS is right. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 1/28/2008 11:17:28 PM |
If it's not reciprocated or appreciated, why bother.
If I can do it better myself, I don't want you touching it.
That's the part about the chivalry thing that drives me crazy, when somebody who thinks his weewee gives him mystic powers botches a job I can do better myself. I'd much rather assign tasks according to competence than gender, and they don't always line up the way people expect. | |
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| I need a male opinion on chivalry...
Posted: 1/28/2008 11:42:47 PM | | Yes i don't mind doing the chivalry thing at all: opening doors, holding my arm out to walk the woman, or helping her with her coat or chair. fortunately I have yet to run into a woman who doesn't mind having those things done for her, a few were suprised I do those kinds of things though. | |
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