| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/2/2007 8:36:21 AM |
Perhaps I have the story wrong, was sure I read in the paper that they enetered the services
No. All the reports I just read specify that they were _outside_ the service, on public property (the sidewalk). They were a small group (4-5 in most pics I've seen), wrapped in the Flag with signs that were clearly anti-war. An anti-war protest, no matter how harshly stated is most definitely "political speech"
How ever it does not negate my opinion, as part of the service involves the removal of the casket while the family escorts it to the hearst. There is no need to ever cause un due stress to the family members by being out side protesting.
It's irrelevant. Free speech isn't subject to your sensibilities or a funeral. Until such are included in the Charter or US Constitution or assorted Human Rights codes, it doesn't matter. You cannot have "Free Speech only for People I Like". It's either for all or not.
And for what it's worth, that Marine died for the ideal of allowing those people to protest, bringing a certain strange irony to the whole situation. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/2/2007 8:45:34 AM |
Romanticoptimist: I don't see this as a free speech issue because the defendants do not target their message at the general public.
It doesn't matter. Unless I'm reading it wrong, the Constitutional guarantee of Free Speech -- in this case a very clear anti-war, and thus "political", protest -- doesn't rest on whether it is broadcast widely or narrowly, whether it targets all, some, or a few.
I mean, where do you draw the line (that's not a hypothetical question. Where do YOU draw the line?) You mentioned 1,000 feet. Is a protest OK at 1010 feet? How about a "nice" protest, one with "nice signs", one that the family finds acceptable? Is that OK at less than 1,000 feet? And your reference to the tort of defamation has nothing to do with this. They didn't "defame" anyone. They protested America's involvement in the war in a sick, twisted, strange, convoluted, theologically unsound, and nasty way. But under the Constitution, they have every right to do so. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/2/2007 11:54:44 AM | Romanticoptimist: The Constitutional right to the freedom of speech is not all inclusive. They do not have the right to be heard. They have the right to speak.
They didn't protest America's involvement in the war. They are using casualties of war as justification for their demented agenda that homosexuality is the greatest of all sins and that every death of a military member is God's Judgment on America.
The government has the right to limit these kinds of protests. I truly believe that they cross the line from freedom of speech to invasion of privacy when they target specific individuals with their protests. If they picketed 1,000 feet away from their local funeral home every Saturday at 10 a.m., I would agree that it is a freedom of speech issue because they wouldn't be targetting deceased military or gay persons in particular. Once they specifically protest only certain funerals that meet their criteria, then it becomes more a tort rather than a constitutional rights issue in my opinion.
The freedom of speech is the freedom to speak. When you have a captive audience, such as a bereaved family who must attend their son's funeral 1000 feet away from your protest, you have forced yourself upon them, invaded their privacy and made them acknowledge your message. The Constitution doesn't give you the right to be heard--it only gives you the right to say what you want to say without going to prison.
It is the targetting specific types of deaths, travelling to protest those funerals and only those funerals, and the fact that the Westboro Baptist Church doesn't protest unless there is a triggering event that takes this out of the realm of Constitutional Law and puts it in the realm of tort law in my opinion.
I am actually surprised that the feds haven't used RICO to stop them. I wonder if it would be applicable. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/2/2007 1:41:47 PM |
Romanticoptimist: The Constitutional right to the freedom of speech is not all inclusive. They do not have the right to be heard. They have the right to speak.
If the last two sentences are provided to support the first statement, you'll have to provide USSC decisions to support your thesis. The Constitutional Right to Free Speech, The First Amendment specifically states, "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech". Several USSC decisions have placed specific restrictions on the exercise of free speech, restrictions that are extremely limited in their scope. As such, the right is to _any_ speech with these specific and limited restrictions. In other words, it isn't "the right to speech only in these circumstances", but "the right to all speech unless specifically prohibited by law".
They didn't protest America's involvement in the war.
Of course they did. All the photos I've seen, all the posters photographed are "anti-war". Their rational and logic are bizarre and sick, but they can reach whatever conclusions they want and state them in a free and democratic society.
The government has the right to limit these kinds of protests.
Only as permitted by the USSC in the light of the Constitution. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/2/2007 2:08:47 PM | Many of you have proven the points I made in my earlier post, but I don't think you really saw them.
The rights that are extended to the individual, in the U.S. are only extended until those rights infringe on the rights of others.
OF COURSE, what those fanatics did is wrong, OF COURSE it sould not be allowed.
But just were, exactly, does the line of infringement cross anothers path before it is recognized for what it is.
To deny anyone the 'same' legal rights and extensions of freedom is to ask to be considered no more than those fanatics you are all do disgusted by.
Discrimation in any form, infringes on the rights of others, so no disgust is allowd by those who would discriminate, by action or the non-action of correction of the problem. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/2/2007 4:43:51 PM | I am actually surprised that the feds haven't used RICO to stop them. I wonder if it would be applicable.
And Can It Be, I think those people that did this ridiculous protest should have their "church" shut down for the time being and they should be encouraged to get proper information and right Theology and values on how to conduct themselves as Christians (assuming they truly are Christians). They need to go to a different church and get better influence and teaching from other people and from other church leaders that have more Biblical understanding and their values in check. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/2/2007 4:54:45 PM | Romanticoptimist: I disagree with you. As far as my statement that they do not have the right to be heard, that is so well understood in the law that I am not going to dig through dozens of legal opinions to prove it to you. No one is entitled to an audience for anything.
You are misunderstanding the protections guaranteed by the Constitution. Some speech is not protected because it is "so lacking in social value as to be beyond constitutional protection...In Chaplinsky the Court set forth the social value doctrine in upholding the conviction of Chaplinsky for calling a police officer a ...and a "damned Fascist." According to a unanimous Court, these were fighting words that lacked social value and thus were beyond the protection of the First Amendment. "
Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15, 91 S. Ct. 1780, 29 L.Ed. 2d. 284 (1971), dealt with freedom of expression NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR. Cohen had written on his jacket "F*** the draft." He was arrested for wearing it into the Los Angeles County Courthouse. He was convicted, and the Supreme Court reversed the conviction.
The Court stated: "While the four-letter word displayed by Cohen in relation to the draft is not uncommonly employed in a personally provacative fashion, in this instance it was clearly not 'directed to the person of the hearer.' No individual actually or likely to be present could reasonably have regarded the words on appellant's jacket as a direct personal insult."
I stated in my last post that I believe the reason the Westboro Baptist Church lawsuit was not a free speech issue is because they targetted specific people. Against quoting from Cohen: "This does not end the inquiry, of course, for the First and Fourteenth Amendments HAVE NEVER BEEN THOUGHT to give absolute protection to every individual to speak whenever or wherever he pleases, or to use any form of address in any circumstances that he chooses."
I believe that Cohen is precedent that targetted speech is NOT free speech and is not protected speech. Cohen's free expression was directed at the general public. The Westboro Baptist Church's protests are targetted at bereaved families only. This takes it out of the realm of free speech and moves it into the realm of invasion of privacy.
As I stated in my last post, if the Westboro Baptist Church were to protest 1000 feet from the same funeral home every Saturday morning at 10 a.m., there protests would be aimed at the general public. By going only to the funerals of those killed in the war, they are targetting the families and invading their privacy. I believe that Cohen will be a precedent to prove that freedom of speech is general and is not "directed to the person of the hearer." How could the Snyder family believe anything but that they were personally targetted?
There are already laws on the books that limit where protests can be held. They have been upheld. See Madsen v. Women's Health Center (114 S. Ct. 2516, 129 L. Ed. 2d 593 1994). Anyone wishing to protest must get a permit from the City. The City has the right to limit the protest to protect public order.
P.S. The Supreme Court is abbreviated SCOTUS--The Supreme Court of the United States. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/3/2007 3:06:34 AM |
And Can It Be, I think those people that did this ridiculous protest should have their "church" shut down for the time being and they should be encouraged to get proper information and right Theology and values on how to conduct themselves as Christians (assuming they truly are Christians). They need to go to a different church and get better influence and teaching from other people and from other church leaders that have more Biblical understanding and their values in check.
Maybe the government can re-program them and their kids, you know make them believe the "right" things?Now if only we can figure out who's "right' things to believe is the Right One, we'll be all set.
Oh, shoot. I forgot, no "enforcing of religion" either! Rats!@ | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/3/2007 4:45:49 AM | Maybe funeral homes should start keeping some pipe and drape handy... These losers show up, block their view from the sidewalk... Don't raise a hand to them until they make it legit for you to do so.
I'm sorry... I really do dislike violence and try to avoid it but protesting a funeral is pretty low.
Oh yeah... I'm anti-war too... That doesn't mean I don't support the troops.
Just the war pigs. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/3/2007 11:04:31 AM | We shall just have to agree to disagree. You're not going to budge on your belief that it was a perfectly legal and valid maneuver. I'm not going to shift on my absolute support that suing them was an end run around the First Amendment. That said, I don't want to be seen as supporting them because I think they are hateful slime, the kind of human detritus that sticks to the bottom of the gum that sticks to your shoe after walking through a stock yard.
Re SCOTUS/USSC, thank you. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/3/2007 11:21:17 AM | Egads. I actually had to look up the news story since I do not watch a lot of tv, which means I do not see the news.
All I can say is.. yikes.
One... they not only protest funerals, they also protest outside of VA hospitals. Tasteless in my opinion, but they are allowed to do so.
I was confused at first on how homosexuality tied into anti-war protests but after looking over everything, I understand that they believe everything happening is punishment for our nation supporting homosexuality. It doesnt make sense to me though since the United States has not completely supported those that are homosexual. Until homosexuals have the exact same rights as the heterosexuals, the US cannot be viewed as completely supporting them.
Their protests are utterly disgusting. I am anti-war myself however, I will never protest using the dead soliders as a platform and mock their sacrifice. Anyone who has any knowledge of the way the military works knows that once you sign in, you do as you are told or you are court martialed and stand a chance at being imprisoned. These soliders that died did so doing what they were commanded to do. I will not bring up the whole area that they died supporting our rights as a free country. That is obvious though I think that has little to do with why our soliders are over there right now.
As disgusting and upsetting as it was to see their protests, they are within their rights to protest, even so far as to stand on public property (ie the sidewalk) and shout their hogwash. Freedom of speech means everyone, no matter how vile their subject, gets the right to express it. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/3/2007 11:50:52 AM | | That is completely disgraceful. I have also discussed this with some of my fellow member of my church, including 2 of the pastors, and we all have the same views on it. This is a Baptist church, by the way. To think that a baptist church is going out and doing things to the people who give up their lives so that the people of today can live a better life is just sickening. Really all i have to say on the topic. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/3/2007 3:43:26 PM |
Maybe the government can re-program them and their kids, you know make them believe the "right" things?Now if only we can figure out who's "right' things to believe is the Right One, we'll be all set.
Oh, shoot. I forgot, no "enforcing of religion" either! Rats!@ I'm not sure if you get it. There is obviously something that is not right with what they are doing, those who did this protest. There is an ethical standard that Christians are precribed through Scripture, and acting in what appears to be hateful anger at another person or group of people is just not the way to do it.
There is a right way to do things and an incorrect way to do things. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/3/2007 6:30:49 PM |  "hello!" SFLady!
In Canada:
Directing hatred against persons of any sexual orientation, heterosexuals, homosexuals and/or bisexuals has joined the four other groups protected against hate speech (colour, race, religion or ethnic origin).
Status of free speech in Canada:
• In the U.S., a person cannot legally yell "fire" in a crowded movie theatre. But they are free to say just about anything else without danger of criminal prosecution. For example, a conservative Christian teleminister in the early 1990s advocated the execution of all Wiccans in the U.S. More recently, a Baptist pastor from Texas advocated that the U.S. army round up Wiccans and burn them alive with napalm. Both clergy were immune from prosecution due to the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment which guarantees almost complete freedom of speech in the country. (We do not wish to overemphasize genocidal advocacy of Wiccans by conservative Christians. However, we are unaware of any other instances in North America where genocide has been actively advocated in recent years.)
• Canadians do not have this degree of freedom of speech. Legislation in Canada follows the British tradition, as do laws in Australia and New Zealand and some other former colonies. In particular, citizens are not allowed to incite or promote hatred, advocate genocide or actually commit genocide against certain specified groups.
Interestingly, the person who was head of the Hate Crimes unit at the Ottawa Police Force when I lived there was a gay man. As well, the person who headed the Hate Crimes unit in, I beleive Vancouver, was a fairly well-known Wiccan author. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/3/2007 7:31:54 PM | | I'm glad the verdict read the way it did because it will hurt them financially, however as deranged as they are, they will no doubt spew something to the tune of "we are persecuted for doing gods work" kinda thing. Having said that, do they have a right to express their religious beliefs at a funeral? Hell no....unless it's their family members funeral to run. Further to that, you'd get arrested for a hate crime anywhere in the US, and what these deranged fools do is the exact same thing. I hope ANYONE who's funeral is picketed by these morons, sues. Eventually they'll shut up. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/3/2007 7:55:08 PM |
Maybe the government can re-program them and their kids, you know make them believe the "right" things?Now if only we can figure out who's "right' things to believe is the Right One, we'll be all set.
Oh, shoot. I forgot, no "enforcing of religion" either! Rats!@
I'm not sure if you get it. There is obviously something that is not right with what they are doing, those who did this protest. There is an ethical standard that Christians are precribed through Scripture, and acting in what appears to be hateful anger at another person or group of people is just not the way to do it.
There is a right way to do things and an incorrect way to do things.
Of course I get it. What they believe is the antithesis of the Christian ideal of "love'. What they believe and they way they express those beliefs is about as far from "Christian" as it can get. What they believe is WRONG.
But here's the kicker: It doesnt matter because once you (or the government, or me) decides what is the "Right" and "Wrong" things to believe, who gets to be expressive and who doesn't, who gets to preach what they believe and who doesn't, we don't have a democracy, we have a dictatorship, a fascist state, or a tyrannical rule by some over others. And that's not acceptable. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/3/2007 7:56:25 PM |
Forgive my bandstanding in the midst of this issue, but I find the actions of "this group of Christians" and the majority of other Christians, actions equally disgusting.
#1: You're forgiven.
#2: Too bad. Deal with it. :-) | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/3/2007 8:19:58 PM | I would think that these guys could be sued fairly easily.
Restrictions on speech that are sometimes characterized as assaults on freedom of speech include the following:
Defamation (slander and libel)
Obscenity
Speaking publicly without a permit
Hate speech that is defamatory or causes incitement to violence
Noise pollution
Lies that cause a crowd to panic or causes Clear and present danger or Imminent lawless action, such as Shouting fire in a crowded theater
Fighting words doctrine:(U.S. 1942) "insulting or 'fighting words', those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace"
Blasphemy is illegal in several Western countries (freedom of religion as well as speech could be given here)
In Sweden a law called "Hets mot folkgrupp" ("Agitation against an ethnic group"), usually translated to hate speech, denies promotion of racism and homophobia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Restrictions_on_free_speech | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/4/2007 5:48:39 AM | stonestongue
Maybe funeral homes should start keeping some pipe and drape handy... These losers show up, block their view from the sidewalk... Don't raise a hand to them until they make it legit for you to do so.
This group was scheduled (according to their website) to protest my son's funeral. They just got confused as to what state it was in. Apparently their early education didn't help them with the abbrievations on States confusing MI with MO.
Anyways a wonderful group (whick I later joined) asked if we would like them to act as a buffer between the protesters and the funeral. They are called the Patriot Riders.
150 of them showed up with their motorcycles and cars holding flags they stood between those of us at the funeral and anyone that would want to protest. How wonderful to see so many that would be willing to drive so far, just to block us from those that ment harm.
I have since been to funerals as a member of the Patriot Guard Riders and have seen this group in action. Luckily we had enough members there that the family never saw or heard them.
We have also found law enforcement to be very supportive to what we are doing. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/4/2007 6:13:38 AM | Although I am fervently against war I think this was a great victory for mankind. It will open the door to more lawsuits against other churches that have done equally enough damage to others in the name of their God. I think its time that people stood up to churches and bring them to their knees, financially seems to be the best way and i hope there are many other cases like this. It sure wouldn't take long to bring down Christianity this way, who would of thought.
What a disgusting display of humanity the church showed in this situation. But i'm glad they did it and glad they got sued!!! Can't wait to see the next case till all churches are brought down. The Roman Catholic Church should take notice of this case...
crazylilting | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/4/2007 6:39:08 AM |
Of course I get it. What they believe is the antithesis of the Christian ideal of "love'. What they believe and they way they express those beliefs is about as far from "Christian" as it can get. What they believe is WRONG.
Ok my apoligies, I thought you were in some way justifying their act by (what I thought was)the "Whats right to you, may not be right to me, and whats wrong for you, may not be wrong for me" etc.....so sorry for misunderstanding your comments your comments the way I did.
I agree with you and others that what these people did was showing off hate and they appeared to be acting with big time self-righteousness, thinking they are above others morally by their actions that don't really show of how Christians should conduct themselves to other people and among eachother. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/4/2007 10:50:31 AM |
This group was scheduled (according to their website) to protest my son's funeral. They just got confused as to what state it was in. Apparently their early education didn't help them with the abbrievations on States confusing MI with MO.
too funny. Thank God for small mercies and people too stupid to know the difference! :-)
Anyways a wonderful group (whick I later joined) asked if we would like them to act as a buffer between the protesters and the funeral. They are called the Patriot Riders.
An excellent group. And an excellent way to deal with the conflicting 'rights'. It's my understanding that they create a visible and audible barrier between protesters and the grieving family and friends. Is that correct? | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/4/2007 1:58:44 PM | Romanticoptimist,
That's exactly what they do. Here is a wonderful video I found that also includes Phelps group.
The PGR has to be invited by the family in order to attend. That is why we aren't considered counter protesters. We are invited guests at the funeral.
http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DG10T_Ih222E | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/4/2007 4:26:42 PM | Gets you "right there" doesn't it?
Out here in Nevada I've had the privilege to be involved with the Patriot Guard first as the State Captain for the national organization, then as the State Director for Southern NV--after we decided to handle things our own way as the Nevada Patriot Guard. (We didn't like the direction the national organization was headed, nor the way things were being run internally---was the reason for the split).
We were not immune to the tactics or threats from the UGs (uninvited guests, as we call that particular religious organization). This past year they spouted their brand of BS on a local Reno radio show and it resulted in over 300 riders attending that funeral. Then later they sent someone down to Hawthorn, NV to paper the town in the middle of the night with their slogans. Had a big turn out on that one too.
Mostly we just give honor guard motorcycle escorts on the hearse and do flag lines outside the church or cemetery to honor the fallen soldiers. And it never fails that there are as many tears shed among our ranks as there are with the mourners.
Most of us are vets and it just gets you that way . . . y'know?
Egorhh | |
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