| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/4/2007 5:54:10 PM | Star,
Tried to message you but your restrictions won't let me. Glad to know there are other PGR members on here.
WBC doesn't come to MI anymore as there is a warrant out for their arrest. The city of Flint billed them $5,ooo.oo for the added police coverage that they demanded for a funeral they planned on attending there. Apparently they figured out the abbrivation for MI. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/5/2007 3:51:16 PM | That video was incredible. Thanks for letting me know about the Patriot Guard Riders.
And, thank you to any PGR who may be reading this post! | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/5/2007 5:07:28 PM | What a wonderful service the Patriot Guard Riders are providing to the families of fallen soldiers, who deserve the utmost respect and compassion.
Thank you to Loveonfire for the nice posts that talk about how hateful and unkind these protesters were. What they did was disgusting and cruel. No family should have to deal with an angry bunch of protesters at a funeral of all things!!!!
I do feel that criminal charges should be levied against the leaders of that "church." | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/6/2007 10:00:35 PM | I am very glad a group like the Patriot Guards are available to help these families in their time of need.
When I first read this thread a couple weeks ago I was completely incredulous hearing about this group of sickos. It wasnt very long ago, when I ran across a mention that a verteran was refused a service because he was gay. Could not believe a church that proclaims to preach the word of God, would deny dignity, help, and love to the family of that man. Thought I had heard it all, the bottom of the barrell so to speak.
Then I read about this Westboro bunch. Then the shock of finding that some claim that this act of hatred is not a criminal offence! Still can not believe that humans have come that low in society to prey on a family in mourning to get attention.
kudos for the Patriot Guards, you are doing very important work, you all have a higher calling . Hopefully, perhaps, laws can be made down there to protect families from suffering this abomination?
Seroiusly funny lady, am so sorry to hear of your loss while reading the posts here. You are doing the memory of your son proud by supporting the Patriot Guards , as a Canadian who has several family members serving in Afghanistan, be assured of my respect for all all our allies and the parents who pay the ultimate price. . | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/7/2007 6:23:18 PM |
I'm not going to shift on my absolute support that suing them was an end run around the First Amendment.
That's because you're obviously uneducated when it comes to the legalities of the freedom of speech issue. Further, you obviously don't want to read when people give you specific examples of why the people are being held responsible for their actions.
For example: There's dozens of things you can't say on the radio / television, false advertising is unlawful, people can be sued for slander, etc.
Your speech is not unlimited, and may have legal repercussions. If you want to bury your head in the sand - that's fine. But, there's many a law / judgment that makes people accountable for what they say and/or who they say it to. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/8/2007 5:15:19 PM |
Issaid: I'm not going to shift on my absolute support that suing them was an end run around the First Amendment.
NerdStatus opined: That's because you're obviously uneducated when it comes to the legalities of the freedom of speech issue. Further, you obviously don't want to read when people give you specific examples of why the people are being held responsible for their actions.
You don't have a clue who I am or my level of education. Shall we compare IQs'? WAIS scores? No, let's not. It's an _opinion_. It's what I believe to be true. Whether it is true or not will be seen if it ever gets to the Supreme Court. If you must judge, at least have the decency (and attention) to read the whole of the posts, rather than jump in after the discussion has ended with some not so enlightened comment.
Your examples have nothing to do with "protest" and have lots to do with criminal and harmful acts to a person's reputation and livelihood. Oh, and read up on "imment harm". It'll help you get a clue. :-) | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/28/2007 8:05:38 AM | The Discovery Times channel had a program about the Westboro Baptist Church last night. A journalist spent some time with them at their home(s) in Topeka, Kansas. He was from the BBC. I only watched about 35-40 minutes of the show.
What I noticed was how the adults were so rude, so arrogant, so self-righteous, and so judgmental of all of society. They had changed the words to the song "God Bless America" to "God Hates America" if I understood it correctly.
They showed some footage of Fred Phelps "preaching." It was awful. The man has one subject--homosexuality. They claim that Fred Phelps knows the Bible better than anyone else on earth. Heaven help us if he does! He wouldn't answer questions. He acted like he was at trial with the "asked and answered" response several times. Fred Phelps really looked like a crackpot, but he also looked like also a mean old goat!
The footage of the children was sad. They are so indoctrinated. There is no other word for it. I am all for parents teaching their children their faith, but this is not a faith--it is a seige mentality. They teach the children that they are "blessed" when everyone hates them because that proves that they are righteous. In this case, that is just not so. Everyone hates them because they are promoting a bigoted agenda.
Then we got to see how some of the signs are made. They have seven-year-olds holding signs about homosexuality than the child cannot possibility understand. Their signs are somewhat graphic in depicting the sex acts involved in homosexuality. They even have one accusing homosexuals of coprophagy.
The thing that I think is so hypocritical is that these people focus on one sin--sexual immorality--and damn everyone on earth. They fail to realize that Jesus taught that if you hate your brother you have committed murder in your heart.
I really believe that when God condemned Israel for its sin, sexual immorality was only one of many sins. For example, In Jeremiah 7 God indicts the people for their wicked ways that include many social injustices:
"If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods, to your own harm, then I will let you live in this place in the land I gave your forefathers forever and ever. But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless. Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house which bears my Name and say, 'We are safe'--safe to do all these detestable things? Has this house which bears my Name become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching declares the LORD" (Jeremiah 7:5-11 NIV).
"Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things (though the father has done none of them): He eats at the mountain shrines. He defiles his neighbors wife. He oppresses the poor and needy. He commits robbery. He does not return what he took in pledge. He looks to the idols. He does detestable things. He lends at usury and takes excessive interest. Will such a man live? He will not!" (Ezekiel 18:10-13 NIV).
Fred Phelps and his followers are wrong to focus on sexual immorality to the exclusion of all other forms of wickedness. They should start with examining their own hearts and see the hatred within. These people don't love God. They love that God's wrath is supposedly coming down upon everyone but them. It is typical of doomsday cults in my opinion. Watch the world "get what it has coming" while their rearends are safe. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/28/2007 4:04:41 PM | | Thanks for the info and opinion. I have a question that comes out of what you said. You expressed your disagreement with their hateful attitude toward homosexuals, but you seem to be exchanging "homosexuality" and "sexual immorality" as you express your thoughts. So there's no confusion, are you saying that "homosexuality" and "sexual immorality" are the same? If you are, isn't' the only difference between these people and you a simple matter of degree. They are judging and condemning more than you (I suppose), but is doing it less than them the same as not doing it at all? Thanks. :-) | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/28/2007 4:44:53 PM | The suit didn't seem to work they are in the news today in western Washington as they a preparing to demonstrate at the funeral of another serviceman on this Friday.
Their doctrine and tactics are putting them in danger of upsetting someone close to the edge and really making headlines. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/28/2007 6:28:05 PM | Romanticoptimist: I use the term "sexual immorality" because it is more comprehensive and covers all sexual sins--hetrosexual as well as homosexual. As a conservative Christian, I believe that homosexuality is a sin, but I do not believe that it is THE only sexual sin nor is it the most prevalent sexual sin in our society.
The difference between Fred Phelps and his followers and Christians like me is that we recognize that we are sinners fully deserving God's Judgment. We recognize that God has extended His mercy to us for all of our sins--including our sexual sins.
Fred Phelps and his followers act as if there is one sin only, homosexuality, and they alone are charged with condemning everyone who is not speaking out against it to the same hateful degree that they do. They act as if their protests were pleasing in the eyes of God. This is their "works of righteousness" by which they are justified in my opinion. The fact that what they are doing is unbelievable heinous and bringing a reproach upon the name of Christ never occurs to them. I have to believe that their sin is greater than the sins of homosexuality that they speak out against because they hate their brother in their heart. They are not speaking out about a sin in a loving manner calling the sinner to repentance.
In addition they claim to be Reformed Baptist (Calvinistic Baptist), but they overlook the fact that it is GOD who grants repentance. They can shoot off their mouths, but they betray that they don't understand the doctrine they profess to embrace.
I adopt a live-and-let-live attitude toward how people live their lives. I do not intrude in people's private lives. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/29/2007 7:46:40 AM | What Trippy said .
IMHO, Your post expressed what every Christain should strive for | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/29/2007 1:11:57 PM | The WBC is a cultic group posing under the name of Christ. Jesus told us "by their fruits ye shall know them". He also said that there would be a time when people will do all sorts of heinous things in the name of God thinking they are doing God's service. This small group just happens to be a small manifestation of that truth. What makes it so notorious is that we live in a time of worldwide informational availability. Not so long ago this group would not have even existed let alone gotten the attention of so vast an audience.
Be that as it may, we who name the name of Christ need to be ever vigilant to denounce groups like this with all the fervor we can muster; for they do indeed bring a reproach upon that Blessed Name. And I applaud the posters here who have done that.
BUT: at the present in this nation even the hateful groups such as this have a right to speak. Our course is not to punish them for in so doing we risk restricting our OWN rights. I noticed one poster even alluded to passing laws which would bring about the complete abolishment of Christianity altogether, and that mindset is just as dangerous as that displyed by this ruling to punish the WBC.
The WBC does indeed stage protests on a regular basis apart from these funerals. I have seen the program alluded to by another poster and it showed clearly that this was the case. So it is wrongheaded to punish their free speech in one venue and not the other. It is also wrong to punish their free speech just because it is heinous and hateful. The Gay/Lesbian lobby has vehemently clamoured for THIER right to flaunt their lifestyle in the faces of mainstream society even though most people think that lifestyle is disgusting. Tit for Tat people. BOTH idealogies are wicked IMO, but I will defend the rights of BOTH to have their say.
For as soon as I put "conditions" upon the one, it will not be long before "conditions" are put upon me. And THAT my friends I will not "tolerate". I served in the USMC to defend the rights of ALL to have their say be it ever so heinous and evil in my view.
What is so different from this WBC and the radical Islamists? BOTH are speaking in the name of their 'god' yet BOTH are seen by civilized society as hateful and wicked. Should we limit WBC yet allow the RI's to have their say in the name of 'tolerance"? I think not. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/29/2007 1:58:50 PM | I don't disagree with their right to voice their opinion. My son died for all of us to have the freedoms that we have. I DO have a problem with where they feel the need to voice their opinion.
The funeral of anyone is not the place, I don't care if they are standing on public property. The thing they yell are ment to inflame which I do believe is illegal in most states. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/29/2007 2:22:14 PM | I wish that everyone who sees these vile protests could just look away and not let his/her emotions get inflamed. Of course that is not possible because WBC designs their signs to inflame the emotions of the public at large and to solicit a reaction. I really think that the only way to make them go away is to deprive them of the satisfaction of angering the public with their hateful demonstrations. I know that is not going to happen. These are the kind of people for whom "any publicity is good publicity" because it is a free venue to spout their hate.
Hersheyboy: I noted on some earlier posts in this thread that not all speech is protected by the Constitution--particularly hate speech.
I agree with SFL that protesting any funeral is totally uncalled for. I would consider it harassment and/or stalking because they have chosen a "victim"--the family of a deceased solider/marine/sailor/airman/coastguardsman--and have traveled possibly thousands of miles to spew forth their glee at the death of the loved one.
The one t hing that I wonder is why the federal government doesn't consider them a organized crime syndicate and use the RICO statutes to bring them down?  They certainly engage in interstate commerce for the purpose of harassing/stalking military families, i.e. the widows and children of service members killed in action. They certainly intimidate people but not for money. They do it for ideological reasons.
(When I say that widows and children are the family of military members, I am distinguishing military DEPENDENTS from other family members who are not military dependents. Possibly if the WBC harasses military dependents rather than other extended family members, some type of law might apply for use against the WBC).
I guess wanting to see them put out of business is just my imagination running wild. God, in His own good time, will bring their horrible cult to an end. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/29/2007 2:39:31 PM | Seriouslyfunnylady:
Send my utmost respect to your soldier please. And I agree that a funeral of a soldier (or anyone for the matter) is not the place to stage a protest, if for no other reason than common decency. However; it is apparent these people have no concept of decency nor do they display the SELF SACRIFICAL love of Christ.
I guess we will have to disagree amicably (sp) about where the line is drawn on free speech however.
@Andcanit be: (I absolutely LOVE that Hymn by the way)
You have demonstrated a much greater knowledge of the Constitution and case law than what I possess. Can you please post a link or show the specific article of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights which mentions "hate seech"?
I, too, deplore the tactics, doctrine, and everything else about these people. Nevertheless; until the Law of the Land is changed (I suspect it will be soon but not for this reason) I am going to defend their right to say what they say while at the same time doing my best to counter what they say with Love, Respect, Dignity and Compassion. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/29/2007 2:50:59 PM |
Send my utmost respect to your soldier please
I'm sorry hersheyboy, that is no longer possible he died in Iraq. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/29/2007 5:53:37 PM | Seriouslyfunnylady,
My condolences on the loss of your son in Iraq.
Those who serve our country, and those who lost their lives in service to our country--along with their families-- deserve to be treated with the utmost respect, and those WBC people did something that was beyond just bad taste. They were despicable for protesting at a funeral! | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/29/2007 6:03:20 PM | Hersheyboy: Hate speech is not specifically mentioned in either the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. It is mentioned in various opinions regarding the application of the First Amendment right to Freedom of Speech or Freedom of Expression.
"This does not end the inquiry, of course, for the First and Fourteenth amendments have never been thought to give absolute protection to every individual to speak whenever or wherever he pleases, or to use any form of address in any circumstances that he chooses....This Court [The Supreme Court] has also held that the States are free to ban the simple use, without a demonstration of additional justifying circumstances, of so-called "fighting words," those personally abusive epithets which, when addressed to the ordinary citizen, are, as a matter of common knowledge, inherently likely to provoke violent reaction." (Cohen v. California 403 U.S. 15, 91 S. Ct. 1780, 29 L.Ed. 2d 284 (1971).
A lot of this has to do with the state's police power. The Supreme Court has developed various tests to determine what the objectives of the government are versus what the rights of the individual are. When the rights of the individual clash with the right/duty of the government to enforce laws, then the balancing tests come into play. These tests are called the rational basis test, intermediate scrutiny test, and the strict scrutiny test. The rational basis test requires that a law not be arbitrary and without any reasonable basis. The intermediate test requires that there must be an important government objective. The strict scrutiny test is when a law has a compelling reason and is narrowly taylored to achieve that interest. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 11/30/2007 5:10:40 PM | HEY Update
A bunch of peace nik support the troops college students with American flags put WBC on the run after only 20 minutes of protest today. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 12/1/2007 8:08:22 AM | I think a group of drag Queens should dress in their Finist sunday go to chruch attire and attend a few services WBC. The poor Rev might just blow a gasket.
Good for the College students. I Hope that there isa Body of christains somewhere that will also take a stand againest this evil group. | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 12/1/2007 8:43:52 AM | | From what I understand the WBC group was really small and the college students way outnumbered them blocked the WBCs signs with flags and other sign BUT most of all were peaceful and did not flame the WBC with hate reactions but spoke in rational tones with talk of love. So instead of being reactionist to the WBC stuff they stood on their own beliefs and the WBC had no hate to feed on. Well Done | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 12/2/2007 7:13:09 PM | | I am glad those students protested the (unprintables) at the WBC. Nicely done, I agree!! | |
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| Westboro Baptist Church Sued
Posted: 5/29/2008 1:25:45 AM | To start with a bit of information on the Westboro Baptist Cult. They are less then 100 members, most of whom are part or Fred Phelps family (i'm guessing the ols Phelps family tree does not branch off very far). Fred Phelps for how nutty and hateful he is was for a time a very respected civil rights attorny. They are not anti-war protesters, infact thy could not be further from it.
The Westboro Cult actually believes that 9/11, the Iraq war, Hurricane Katrina, and many other things are gods punishment to America for the acceptance of homosexuality. They actually thank god for punishing America. The list of who they hate also includes Canada, Ireland, Sweden, Catholics, most Christians, and many others. You can see who they hate at their website: godhatesfags.com. The Westboro Baptist Cult was also kicked out of the mainsteam Baptist church.
As for this case it was not a freedom of speech case. This case was about being held responsible for your actions. Freedom of speech is NOT an absolute, as mentioned before you can not yell fire in a theater, you can not slander people, you can not make fraudulent speech, and tlist goes on. Now in this case, the family felt that they were damaged by this cult. The judg felt that this cult was responsible for the damage and held them liable to the tune of $11 million. This case was not about the cult's right to speak their mind, it was about the pain and suffering they caused to the grieving family, and that they were liable for that pain. I do feel the amount was a bit ridiculous, but I do like it none the less.
Romanticoptimist, any time I hear someone state I'm smarter then you, so therefore I am right, makes me think tht person is a fool. On your profile you state that you live in Canada and your profession is technology. I am guessing you are not an expert in American law.
Now I am Canadian as well, and I am very happy for that fact. In Canada we also hold freedom of speech very dear. Butwe also have anti-hate laws that are very strong. And the Westboro Baptist Cult has already suffered from them with some of their members being arrested, later released and told never return to Canada.
Freedom of speech is not as simple as you can say whatever you want, wherever you want, when you want. The purpose of freedom of speech was so ideas could freely flow, withoutthe governmet interfearing. It does not give an induvidual the right to cause harm with speach. Even copywrite law goes against this false idea of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech also does not give the right to force a message on an induvidual, if a group protests in a town square you have the right to leave, if a gay pride parade is marching down a main street you have the right to not attend, when Bill O`Reilly is spewing his own form of hate you can turn the channel. But whe the Westboro Cult shows up at a funeral with megaphones, they are forcing their speech on the mourners, just as you can not stand outside your ex-girlfriends window proffessing your love at all hours of the night.
For the Patriot Riders I don`t know much about your group, you do seem to be doing relly good work helping these mourners, but I have a suggestion. When you go to these funerals, you should contact the local transvestite community. When you put up your flag wall to block the cult, have the trannies strut their stuff between your group and the cult.
Personally I am very against the Iraq war, but I feel that a soldier who makes the ultimate sacrifice for their country deserves respect. | |
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