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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 7:36:29 AM | | This is absolutely amazing. I wouldn't have a problem with a movement against smokers if the government would just make it illegal already. In lieu, they unremittingly raise taxes on tobacco, while continuing to make our lives a living hell. | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 7:49:07 AM | yeah but if you make it illegal, you create another problem - prohibition and related 'cottage industries' ie the black market, that will provide the demanded cigarettes to the masses. Just like with drugs, and alcohol of the old days, prohibition creates more problems than it causes.
look at our war on drugs - all its done is create a whole new class of criminals, gave rise to gang warfare and has proven exceedingly profitable for the Prison industry. I say, less government interference - if I want to smoke, leave me be - I already know it can kill me and would never resort to the cowardice exhibited in the tobacco lawsuits.
maybe we should ban lawyers? | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 8:22:40 AM | | But they're not leaving you be if you want to smoke as it is. These people are considering outlawing smoking in your own home! There's no other way BUT to make it entirely illegal once this becomes a trend. Think about it. You can't currently smoke within 50 feet of buildings, nor can you smoke at bus stops, in restaurants or in bars! | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 8:46:02 AM | its a trend, but Im reassured by the fact that politicians in their perpetual short-sightedness, will never ban smoking. Considering tobacco revenues account for huge chunks of governmental budgets that go directly to the general funds in most states, I think you'd be hard pressed to kill it altogether.
Besides, smoking is a convenient scapegoat - for politicians and activists who lack the will or intellect needed to fight pressing needs. Its a ideological distraction these folks would never let anyone wrest from their control.
I do think that it is sickening that smoking is banned even in privately owned condos -that is however, a problem for the individual unit owner - read the documents before you buy and GET INVOLVED in your condo association so that overzealous folks don't attempt to pass such stringent rules. | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 10:07:40 AM | In one city by-law, that was going into effect In june 2008. Stated. "No smoking in any public places even outdoors." Penaties were- 1st offence was a fine of so many dollars. 2nd offence a bigger fine. 3rd offence Jail.
I think it is time that all smokers go to a public place or gov't building and light up at the same time. Imagine hundreds of smokers lighting up at the same time, in one public place.
Now try to organize that with every smoker.
HMMMM maybe it could be done. They do it for everything else.
Has anyone noticed the amount of cig butts on the ground outside now? That is when outside ashtrays are not around. | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 10:17:34 AM | again,
I rarely smoke. It reminds me however of when I was a young EMT -- waaaaay back when. I was completely stressed out after working a particularly horrifying car accident and after filling out the paperwork, realized we were going to be stuck at the hospital for some time.
I needed to stop shaking. I needed a distraction and asked the cop who was with me if he had any cigarettes, he did, so I walked outside the ER and leaned against my rig and lit up.
A doctor, who I learned later was in his first year of residency, proceeded to march over to me as if I was committing mass murder. He began to berate me for smoking at a hospital and demanded that I put the cigarette out as I was setting a bad example for other patients, particularly children.
I kept smoking. Noting to the doctor that it was 2AM and that frankly, I wasn't really concerned with other patients at this very moment, that I just came back from an accident involving an overturned car and was having a moment to reflect.
He wouldnt stop. He kept up his speech, telling me he had my badge and truck number and was filing a complaint. I smoked on anyway, my hands still shaking.
I relate this story only to make the wider point that the anti smoking movement, while well intentioned, is not always rational. Issues of personal freedom, personal space and choice in general, are cast aside in the name of an all encompassing agenda. Its up to us, not as smokers and non smokers, but as Americans to stand up for each other and demand if nothing else, personal boundaries be respected.
Interesting side note - I saw that same doctor only 2 years ago. He looks harder now, having spent quite some time in the ER. Irony: he was smoking a cigarette. | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 12:22:48 PM | I've read several (not all) of the previous posts. This issue is like so many where people complain that the government is trying to affect morality. Yes, you heard me, morality. What I mean is that if we all just lived by the Golden Rule (Do unto to others as you would have others do unto you, which paraphrased means: treat others as you wish to be treated) there would be no need for smoking bans or most of the other laws. This country was founded on Christian principles by Christians. If you doubt that go check out the original documents of our founding fathers. They not only believed in God and prayer, but also made statements that said that a country could only be free and successful if it was under God. That is why our money reads " In God We Trust". That was to be a constant reminder of where we came from and Who gives us all the power and freedoms we've enjoyed for over two centuries. Since so many people have fallen away from those original principles the government now finds itself having to legislate the principles of the Golden Rule. Some non Christians think that we the people have somehow accomplished all in this great nation ourselves without the intervention of the Almighty. Think again. Now that we as a country are moving further away from God's laws and service to Him our country is in greater trouble and open to attack both from within and without. Don't you think the attack on 9/11/2001 was to get our attention?
I don't mean to be judgmental, none among us is without fault, but we need to address our actions as individuals to be responsible and uphold moral principles on our own first.
So my point is if everyone just behaved themselves, treating others the way they'd like to be treated, there would be no need for smoking ban laws, etc.
And for the record, I am and always have been a non-smoker. Both my parents and my late husband smoked. When he quit, I had withdrawals and actually bought a pack of cigarettes and smoked a couple. Couldn't stand them! So I grew up on second hand smoke and am glad to say my kids didn't. Incidentally, former smokers are among the most anti-smoking people I know! | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 12:52:37 PM | Kate, what on earth are you talking about? I can't even decipher your argument. Are you in favor of smoking bans or not? Based on your preachiness, I'm guessing you are indeed in favor of them. But I have two major points that contradict you...
A) Tobacco's a natural product. Sure, the poisons are put into store-bought cigarettes, but tobacco in itself is natural.
B) The founding fathers whom you speak of so highly were all profiteers of the tobacco industry. Not only that, but they were strongly against government intervention, particularly in matters that don't have a direct harm on others. | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 1:25:38 PM | Chasing smokers to their homes is a tad fascist when we're talking about a HOUSE. However a CONDOMINIUM apartment is a unit in a SHARED building.
When I moved into my condo I was handed a 50-page long booklet with The Rules of what I could and could NOT do, so I don't see a smoking ban as the straw that breaks the camel's back on an already-regulated shared environment.
Heck I can't even hang an X-mas wreath on the outside of my front door or change my exterior drape colors, so I don't see why banning smoking in a condo would be the end of the world (we've had several cigarette-related fire alarms got off at 4 AM waking up 400+ units in the middle of the night, I was ready to murder the SOB... ).
Now someone's HOUSE is a complete violation of human rights, it's their home, so long as they're not burning their neighbour's house down in the process, I as an avid non-smoker could care less what you do INSIDE, at that includes smoking, drugs, drinking and hookers. Do what the heck you like 
As for a poster that mentioned bus stations having "plenty of fresh air", I can't even count the number of times I have to move around my bus station to remain UPWIND of my fellow smoking commuters, especially when the wind is variable. It's a piss-off, and I either have to keep dancing around them or hold my breath rhythmically to avoid gasping on that crap...  | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 3:35:28 PM | | I say this, if governments want too regulate what I can do in my house, then let them pay my mortgage as well...As for the lady talking about this country founded on Christian Principles, guess what they all smoked wether it be a pipe ir a cigar, or even chewing tobacco, and ask me how I know, well Ben Franklins house is up the road from me as is independence hall, and the first thing you see in old Ben's house is his pipe... | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 6:08:16 PM | Anybody who believes the founding fathers were basing the country on christian principles needs to look at a few of the documents that they actually produced. I.E. treaty of tripoli.
As for the founding fathers smoking. Well the founding fathers also didn't know about cancer, germ theory, and didn't take much issue with slavery. They're hardly messianic figures. Once again, tobacco is an addictive harmful substance. It doesn't deserve respect. Smokers deserve respect as people, their behavior in regards to smoking however does not. | |
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| Smoke More! Posted: 11/14/2007 6:11:39 PM | Reading some of the comments here makes me wish second hand smoke did kill rather than simply offend the olfactory senses of some non-smokers. It is a pity that in the end, the mob will get their way on this issue -- at least for now -- just like the Prohibition zealots got theirs.
Something that really annoys me though, and it applies given the topic relates to the USA, is that half these crusaders for a smoke-free universe (the parallel with Prohibition is almost creepy) are probably so fat from all the crap they stuff into their oversized stomachs that a cigerette in lieu of another cheeseburger might prolong their miserable little lives rather than shorten it. To play on the "health" issue of smoking is absurd. It is patently obvious that most people inhale far more cancer causing toxins from the trucks and cars that drive by them daily than they'll get from cigarette smoke in a lifetime. Does anyone here really believe CO, CO2 and H2O are the only by-products of combustion?
Anyway, if you think it is bad here, keep some perspective. In Nairobi it is actually illegal to smoke in public, including the outdoors. Smoking is limited to designated areas of bars that choose to offer it. That is literally it and it can take you more time to find a legal place to smoke than it takes to enjoy the cigarette.
As for the ban on smoking in your own home: My advice is f-the-ban! Let by-law try to enforce it. Good F-ing luck.
As a previous poster said above, the big pharmaceutical companies push anti-smoking laws to get more people to buy nicotine products. Companies like Pfizer and Johnson & Johnson sell more nicotine to the public than the cigarette companies do.
True.
Besides, smoking is a convenient scapegoat - for politicians and activists who lack the will or intellect needed to fight pressing needs. Its a ideological distraction these folks would never let anyone wrest from their control.
Also true. | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 6:21:02 PM |
Incidentally, former smokers are among the most anti-smoking people I know! I have to agree . I know many former smokers, That are for smoking bans. Non smokers have a very different view. (Unless you are Mormon).
What I have noticed. A person that use to do something. ( Safaries, Smoking, Gambling, Drinking) Now do not do it any more. Are the ones that are the most active agaainst it. I think, Thier point a of view is: When I did it it was okay. Now I quite. I have to stop everyone else, because I might have a relaps. LOL
I do know. If you want to quite something, (Smoking, Gambling, Drinking).You have to make the choice yourself. No one else can make you stop. | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 6:36:26 PM | The conversation seems to have expanded into talking about smoking bans under any conditions. Thus my talk about banning smoking in bus stops.
As for "massively unhealthy" vs "unhealthy" unless you can point out where the dividing line is, we'll just have to disagree about the severity of the issue.
As for the conspiracy theorists who would state that the pharma companies are behind all this.
Bullshit.
Seriously, they make way more money with cancer therapies then they ever do with a few measly patches, especially considering the population that uses nicotine products to quit is a small fraction of those that actually quit. It's a total non starter. | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 6:43:35 PM | why not...next thing you now they will tell us we cant have sex at hone behind closed doors either...civil rights,,,did someone rewrite our constitution and didnt tell us about it....  | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 6:52:55 PM | >>>As for "massively unhealthy" vs "unhealthy" unless you can point out where the dividing line is, we'll just have to disagree about the severity of the issue.
Are....are you asking me to define the word "massive"?
Come on man- we all know what massive means- large in scale, amount, or degree, solid or substantial; great or imposing, imposing in scale or scope or degree or power
Can you honestly say 5-15 minutes exposure to second hand smoke has an imposing scale of power on your long term lifespan? What about 15-30 minutes? Do you honestly believe a half hour of second hand smoke exposure could take out a substantial, imposing amount of your overall life?
There's unhealthy, like not exercising, not eating right, drinking, smoking, doing drugs, not cleaning your cuts, and so forth, and then theres Massively Unhealthy- like setting yourself on fire, eating moldy food, and jumping off your roof- one will most definitely lead to suffering- the other may or may not, depending on the extreme. | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 9:14:14 PM | | Well Charles since your from Canada and you won't understand this, but the Founding Fathers, too us Americans whose country they founded were visionaries, kind of funny how a country like yours that is predominantly white, always have something negative to say about how minorities are treated in this country..Back on topic,,, many of us grew up in smoking households, and many of us have never been affected by second hand smoke...This attack on smokers is just another way the liberal left just want too attack anything and everything they don't agree with or like... If we keep letting the government say what is good for you and what is not, why not just give up your personal freedoms, and bring back the Soviet Union..... | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/14/2007 9:22:20 PM |
Smokers deserve respect as people, their behavior in regards to smoking however does not. At one time smokers were very polite. We did repect the wishes of a non smoker. 1) We did not eat at a table if someone was still eating. 2) We would ask at the table if anyone minded if we smoked. If someone said yes. We would not light up at the table. 3) We just didn't drop the buts on the ground. There was an ashtray in the place we were going into.
Can you remember when? 1) McDonalds commericals were aimed at children? Before they went Non-Smoking. 2) McDonalds commericals are aimed at Adults? After they went Non-Smoking. 3) Have you ever went into a restaraunt, where there was smoking and non smoking sections? Which area had more people?
You do not smoke. Your generation are a group of chewers. (Smokless tobacco)
Can you explain why. A bar owner's (I know) revenue has dropped a lot since he had to go Non Smoking? 85% of his customers were smokers. | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/15/2007 2:14:32 PM | I read all 69 comments as a result of your posting and now will make my own. Smoking is my privilege...............something I choose to do for myself. It helps relieve tension and cuts back on the appetite. It can be very relaxing after an arduous workout...................it has medicinal value. I don't take 'nerve' pills, diet pills or any kind of man made pills to change my mood.............I smoke. It's healthier.............for me anyway. I've smoked for 45 years, never have known anyone who has suffered from 2nd hand smoke. Smoked during 3 pregnancy's, grateful for small babies. biggest was 7.5lbs. Raised 3 kids in a dual smoking environment. boy does not smoke, girls do. No ill effects known from smoking in this family or other families of known smokers. Smoking allows me to stop and take a break when I'm working. If I can't sleep at night I can get up and go to an all night restaurant(in Missouri) and have coffee and a smoke and visit with the waitresses there. I miss that, (now that I'm in Utah.) I can remember when smokes were 3 packs for $1.05 and you could smoke them anywhere, at work, school, planes, trains, department stores, grocery stores, restaurants, bars, bus stops, parks, stadiums, so forth and so on..................................then changes came about, the only places left were bars and restaurants who invited smokers to come in. Restaurants gave them a section of their own. Then these self righteous do gooders have joined forces to strip smokers of having any place to smoke except in their own home..................and now that's on the hit list. No one has given up as much as smokers. We no longer can 'light up' where or when we want, like we used to, that privilege has been taken from us................and is continually be taken away in different places..............................now we even offend the dead in their graves. The price of cigarettes has been taxed so high in some places, you can't enjoy smoking like you used to, because it's too expensive...........................discrimination.................why is it non smokers are allowed to come into a smoking establishment but a smoker is not allowed to go into an establishment that used to have a section set aside for him or her. What happened to equal rights? Why can't a business open their doors to smokers only, non smokers, not allowed..........................something is just not right, when non smokers can outlaw smokers from places they've always been and have the governments support them. What about us.................who supports us in having the same rights as a non smoker. If a non smoker wants to enter an establishment where smokers are he/she has that right, a smoker does not...........................not anymore. If I wanted to open an establishment for smokers only and forbid non smokers from coming in, I would be in big trouble, first, I doubt if I would be given such a license, but smokers are not allowed to go in to a public establishment because of whiny non smokers and the corrupt governments that do the bidding of powerful lobbyist. Most smokers have been considerate of their non smoking counterparts for many years. We have accepted the loss of many of our freedoms without much of a fight. We pay more for a product than we ever have..........................and we still smoke. It has purpose.................for us. I think smokers should unite in a movement to 'make' non smokers pay a fee for clean air. It will be added to their bill in a restuarant where there used to be a smoking section, on planes, trains, stores, etc. etc Wherever smokers once were, now non smokers will pay for all that clean air they've been given at our expense.......................it's fair.................. non smokers should have to pay for their privelege of closing the door on equal rights........................don't you think???? | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/15/2007 3:53:29 PM | This is what happens when too many people are content to sit back let the government 'take care' of them. Let the government run our resturaunts, bars, schools, health care system, take away guns from law abiding citizens etc. It is not the role of the government, be it state or federal, to take care of you.
The smoking ban in Minnesota was skillfully and politically worded as "The Freedom to Breathe Act". As if we didn't have a right to breathe prior to Oct 1, 2007? Our Governor, Tim Pawlenty tells us the ban is a health issue. Bull shinola! If the house and senate members who voted for the bill, and the Gov, who signed the bill really felt that way they would ban the sale of tobacco in MN. Of course banning tobacco would greatly cut into the state budget. The state gets $1.75 per pack of cigarettes sold here and we're already one of the highest taxed states in the nation. These bans have nothing to do with health and everything to do with politics. All Gov Pawlenty cares about is getting re-elected. Or he's trying to earn some brownie points for higher aspirations he may have.
Some here have made legitimate points about second hand smoke vs drinking and driving. I like to call it second hand smoke vs second hand drinking. Second hand drinking has ruined more lives, destroyed more families, and killed more innocent people than smoking has. Those who favor the smoking bans will say "but driving under the influence is already legal". True. But what are our leaders doing about it? They aren't doing shite! Shouldn't they be tackling this problem and reducing it, making our citizens safer on the roads? Of course they're focussed on getting behing a politically correct issue that hurts our state economy and business owners. If I am in an auto accident caused by a drunk driver I have no choice in avoiding that.
But I do have a choice to either avoid or patronize any resturaunt or bar of my choice that allows smoking. If I'm waiting at a bus stop with a group of 10 and smell a f'n disgusting cigartte all I have to do is take a couple of steps back...problem solved. Before the ban I always ate in a non smoking section at resturaunts....problem solved. If an establishment is too smokey for me I don't go back there.
I am not sticking up for smokers. I am sticking up for freedom. With freedom comes personal responsibility and the more responsibility we give to the government the more liberties they will take. | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/16/2007 8:08:37 AM |
I read all 69 comments as a result of your posting and now will make my own. Smoking is my privilege...............something I choose to do for myself. It helps relieve tension and cuts back on the appetite. It can be very relaxing after an arduous workout...................it has medicinal value. I don't take 'nerve' pills, diet pills or any kind of man made pills to change my mood.............I smoke. It's healthier.............for me anyway. I've smoked for 45 years, never have known anyone who has suffered from 2nd hand smoke. Smoked during 3 pregnancy's, grateful for small babies. biggest was 7.5lbs. Raised 3 kids in a dual smoking environment. boy does not smoke, girls do. No ill effects known from smoking in this family or other families of known smokers. Smoking allows me to stop and take a break when I'm working. If I can't sleep at night I can get up and go to an all night restaurant(in Missouri) and have coffee and a smoke and visit with the waitresses there. I miss that, (now that I'm in Utah.) I can remember when smokes were 3 packs for $1.05 and you could smoke them anywhere, at work, school, planes, trains, department stores, grocery stores, restaurants, bars, bus stops, parks, stadiums, so forth and so on..................................then changes came about, the only places left were bars and restaurants who invited smokers to come in. Restaurants gave them a section of their own. Then these self righteous do gooders have joined forces to strip smokers of having any place to smoke except in their own home..................and now that's on the hit list. No one has given up as much as smokers. We no longer can 'light up' where or when we want, like we used to, that privilege has been taken from us................and is continually be taken away in different places..............................now we even offend the dead in their graves. The price of cigarettes has been taxed so high in some places, you can't enjoy smoking like you used to, because it's too expensive...........................discrimination.................why is it non smokers are allowed to come into a smoking establishment but a smoker is not allowed to go into an establishment that used to have a section set aside for him or her. What happened to equal rights? Why can't a business open their doors to smokers only, non smokers, not allowed..........................something is just not right, when non smokers can outlaw smokers from places they've always been and have the governments support them. What about us.................who supports us in having the same rights as a non smoker. If a non smoker wants to enter an establishment where smokers are he/she has that right, a smoker does not...........................not anymore. If I wanted to open an establishment for smokers only and forbid non smokers from coming in, I would be in big trouble, first, I doubt if I would be given such a license, but smokers are not allowed to go in to a public establishment because of whiny non smokers and the corrupt governments that do the bidding of powerful lobbyist. Most smokers have been considerate of their non smoking counterparts for many years. We have accepted the loss of many of our freedoms without much of a fight. We pay more for a product than we ever have..........................and we still smoke. It has purpose.................for us. I think smokers should unite in a movement to 'make' non smokers pay a fee for clean air. It will be added to their bill in a restuarant where there used to be a smoking section, on planes, trains, stores, etc. etc Wherever smokers once were, now non smokers will pay for all that clean air they've been given at our expense.......................it's fair.................. non smokers should have to pay for their privelege of closing the door on equal rights........................don't you think????
Smoked during 3 pregnancy's, grateful for small babies.
I don't know how any of you pro smokers can show your face in here after reading this rant. | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/16/2007 8:28:49 AM | charles~ ""Anybody who believes the founding fathers were basing the country on christian principles needs to look at a few of the documents that they actually produced. I.E. treaty of tripoli.
As for the founding fathers smoking. Well the founding fathers also didn't know about cancer, germ theory, and didn't take much issue with slavery. They're hardly messianic figures. Once again, tobacco is an addictive harmful substance. It doesn't deserve respect. Smokers deserve respect as people, their behavior in regards to smoking however does not. ""
Agreed ~ they do ! some do ~ all should ~
but thats not the issues here ~ nor is health ~
but more of an over kill ~ of legislation ~ run amuck!
It's smoke not platomium waste.
~dar | |
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| Smoke-free crusaders may now be at your door Posted: 11/16/2007 8:53:28 AM | | I gladly show my face in here, you know why, It's my life, and if I want too smoke, which is entirely legal, I'll smoke....Damn this marlboro taste good.. ( goes to the air vents and exhales so the smoke rises two post above me)..... | |
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