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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 9:58:18 AM |
Either way, Mr. Pullman has the right to write whatsoever he chooses to write, and producers have the right to make whatever movie they want. Instead of looking at it through narrow minded (or closed minded) perspective, why not open your mind and actually just read the book? You might learn something.
I agree, The thing is, it seems that ANYTHING that promotes the idea that one can think for themselves is anti Christian. Sheesh, I got a news flash, Christian dogma is not the be all to end all. If one were a real Christian, one wouldn't be so quick to judge.
I know some aethiests will fire on me for this, but what propaganda has Christianity unleashed upon children that promotes exclusion and separation from people who aren't Christians? We don't teach our children to disbelieve and hate. We don't teach them to hate Allah, Buddah, and aetheism. We try not to give them negativity.
Are you serious????
I'm sorry I started this thread. May it be deleted with all the others. Only a very select few of you can give argumentative responses without jumping topic and dropping in to throw your hate in without sustaining it with any backing whatsoever. The content of your character is speaking volumes of unspoken words that I never could have illustrated myself.
Were those very few those who agreed with you?
Cheers, Raven | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 10:21:17 AM |
CHILDREN CANNOT THINK FOR THEMSELVES! They become what we make them by careful molding of their delicate personalities.
Exactly!! And that's why the indoctrination of children into their parent's dogmatic religious beliefs is nothing short
of criminal, in MY opinion.
I know some aethiests will fire on me for this, but what propaganda has Christianity unleashed upon children that promotes exclusion and separation from people who aren't Christians?
You must be kidding .... right?!?? In my opinion, exclusion and separation IS what christianity is ALL about. It has at the very core of it's belief, this "OUR way is the ONLY way" mentality that automatically sends anyone who doesn't believe what THEY believe, to burn in HELL for eternity and to suffer eternal DAMNATION!
We don't teach our children to disbelieve and hate.
Oh no? Christians don't hate homosexuals? They don't hate "sinners" and "non-believers"?? You sure about that?? They don't teach their children to "disbelieve" in other religions? What about other gods? Other possibilities?
We try not to give them negativity.
Haha!! Hell, eternal damnation, punishment, evil doings, sins, the "devil" and my two personal favorites.... GUILT and SHAME .....ahhh yes you're right...christianity is such a positive religion, isn't it?
It is NOT your right to try to fill our children's minds with hate for God!
It is NOT your right to try to fill our children's minds with hate for ANYONE!!
~JMO~
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 10:25:59 AM | Artz, I have the book on my lap. Ask anything you want to know, I will cite passages from the book if you want.
For that matter, I will cite what Mr. Pullman himself wrote on the 4th page of the book before the story began.
The Golden Compass forms the first part of a story in three volumes. The first volume is set in a universe like ours, but different in many ways. The second volume is set in the same universe, along with the one we know. The third volume moves between many universes.
With that said.. are some so blind to think that the christian god would be worshipped in EVERY universe?? Wow.. talk about egotistical! And how is it promoting hate if someone from a different universe comes to a universe where the christian god is worshipped and after seeing how things are, determines that he is evil and needs to be removed?? Hello.. they arent from the same place!!
And wow.. I feel rather ridiculous discussing this as if it is true. Let me try it this way...
IT IS A BOOK!! For crying out loud. Get your panties out of a bunch and chill. | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 10:54:12 AM | The author has the right to write whatever he wants to write. The studio has the right to make whatever movie they want to make. Both are subject only to the various restraints placed on media in their respective nations. The public has the right to vote with their wallets and purchase or not purchase the book or movie. The parents have the right (and the responsibility) to research the material and decide whether to let their children read/watch the material. What is it about the free exercise of these rights that so disturbs anyone?
If it is "hate" (and so far I haven't been able to read anything that specifically proves it is), then it can be dealt with under existing laws. Where other laws , such as the right to freedom of speech, trump any possibility of this "hate" being legally prevented, public opinion and discussion can be utilised to harm the commercial interests of the purveyors of "hate", and in doing so provide them with a better sense of what is or isn't acceptable in this matter.
As for "anti-God" statements or intentions. So what? Do you think God is not capable of withstanding such criticism? I mean, He's GOD. If your God is so small as to be injured by someone who disagrees with Him, then He's way to small to be worthy of worship.
As for the ones who so predictably paint "Christians""with such a wide brush in order to ridicule and mock, your minds are too small to be worthy of consideration. | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 11:14:36 AM | It took me a whil;e but I found a link that may intrest you all. I rembered reading a review in a paper about the stage version of this book and a discusion between Pullman and the Archbishop of Canterbury. There were some very intresting points raised and the two had one of the most inteligent and amiable discusions I have ever read.
There is cetainly no malice on Philip Pullmans part and he is very well versed on spiritual and philosophical maters. He makes the point that this is not our world, this an alternate world where god never existed and Jesus was just a teacher whos words were corupted by the people in charge.
In response to the OP, I would like to point out that the children do not set out to destroy god, they set out to destroy an imposter pretending to be god. It is a kind of alegory for the serch for truth and not being mislead by false prophets.
Anyway, I'm going to go and read the triliogy now before I come back with more input for you all. But before I go, I just thought this little qoute from Pullman and the Archbishop was rather apropriate.
PP: Which leads us to Mel Gibson. Have you seen that film? (the pasion)
RW: I haven't seen it.
PP: Nor have I, so we can talk about it! That's all right.
RW: We're allowed opinions without the constraints of reality!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2004/03/17/bodark17.xml
/\ /\ /\ Link to the discusion between Philip Pullman and the Archbishop of Cantebury. | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 11:21:20 AM | First:
CHILDREN CANNOT THINK FOR THEMSELVES! EXCUSE ME?!?!
They most certainly can and DO when empowered to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In fact, I remember sitting in church at the age of 6-7 thinking "something is really wrong here"...
Second:
what propaganda has Christianity unleashed upon children that promotes exclusion and separation from people who aren't Christians? We don't teach our children to disbelieve and hate. We don't teach them to hate Allah, Buddah, and aetheism. We try not to give them negativity. We?? You are speaking for everyone of your faith? That is pretty bold considering what has been done in its name! What a joke...
Third:
The movie is set for release on December 7, 2007. Thanks for the tip... I'll be there with my entire family in tow :) | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 11:29:48 AM |
As to the Christian support for this movie, these guys must be totally off their rockers. Look, I can even get a spiritual boost from watching Star Wars. The epic struggle of good and evil is a very spiritual experience. I see God in almost everything because I take from it what I will. This is not the same thing. This is a classic display of total depravity, calling good evil and evil good - but that's my opinion. The question of influencablity in groups ages 9 - 13, is not my opinion, it is hard scientific fact.
That's rich. Other christians disagree with you, so they MUST be 'off their rockers.'
You see God in almost everything, but I am willing to bet that you also see hate in almost everything.
what if you were driving down the road one day and your kid sees a billboard for a children's movie you whole-heartedly felt was profane, and for the next month it's all they can talk about?
Oh, I agree to some extent that there are things that children should not be subject to. But I disagree with your inane idea that The Golden Compass is one such thing.
You do not like it? Fine, do not take your kids to see it.
But that does not give you the right to go out on some bloody crusade to get others to not see it as well.
This has been covered in countless other threads. I will not repeat the 50 page argument, but I will say this. You are in a religion forum. We discuss criticism of our religion, and the validity of our beliefs. Refering to this as whinning, referring to the bible as "damned" and "bloody"; you are conflict-seeking. It's not welcome and is reportable.
Your who damned thread is conflict seeking! and referring to the Bible as damned and bloody is not by itself conflict seeking. It is not reportable, just because you do not like people using those descriptors. If it was, then saying that it is truthful holy is just as reportable.
A few of you are trying to inflame me, and it's negating any argument you are putting forth due to your lack of civility. I can discuss Narnia, but not with you, sorry. Not interested in a flame war.
Inflame you? flame war? I am doing no such thing. I am stating quite clearly that the only hate I see here is from YOU.
Which is why raising your children to be Christian is nothing less than child abuse.
Oooh, sick burn.
I'm sorry I started this thread. May it be deleted with all the others. Only a very select few of you can give argumentative responses without jumping topic and dropping in to throw your hate in without sustaining it with any backing whatsoever. The content of your character is speaking volumes of unspoken words that I never could have illustrated myself.
Great, another person who needs some lessons in reason and argument. | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 11:48:33 AM |
altruist80: CHILDREN CANNOT THINK FOR THEMSELVES! They become what we make them by careful molding of their delicate personalities.
Were you raised this way - parents instilling in you the idea that you cannot think for yourself? And will you raise your children in the same manner - stripping from them their critical thinking skills and their objectivity and spoon-feeding them your beliefs rather than letting them decide for themselves? Will you destroy their autonomy or will you encourage them to think for themselves?
I wonder how much more empowered you would be if your parents had fostered an independence in you rather than convince you of your inability to think for yourself.
Of course children can think for themselves. They have their own personalities too. To believe otherwise is merely an attempt to legitimize brainwashing. | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 12:26:09 PM | Does anyone else find this line of thinking familiar? A work clearly marked FICTION says something that we don't like about our religion...therefore we villify the writer and suggest that it is "hate literature"...
A stronger response might be to request banning it, burning it...
Declaring a "fatwas" against the Author...
Fortunately it's been a few hundred years since Christendom executed anyone for heresy...now they just let fringe kooks carry out their will unofficially from tall towers with high power rifles | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 1:43:44 PM |
Case in point. My 13 year old son was discussing his views on the enviroment, ancient civilizations and the possibility of life on other planets with me when he was 8 years old. At 13, he now discusses politics with me and is quite adept at making his own views well known without disregarding someone elses. My daughter, who is now 12, is just as capable of such and will carry on conversations with anyone that will discuss topics such as life on other planets, religion and science.
First off, my congradulations on raising such intelligent children. :)
Perhaps if you gave children credit for being intelligent and able to think for themselves, you would see that there is nothing to worry about from a book/movie.
I have to somewhat disagree there. While I agree that if raised as critical thinkers, children will be less likely to be swayed by irrational/negative material from either books or movies, but this doesn't make them immune to superficially persuasive arguements and lines of reasoning.
And that is a pretty conclusive arguement given many adults still routinely fall for precisely that type of material. | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 2:57:30 PM | CHILDREN CANNOT THINK FOR THEMSELVES!
This is the greatest misconception anyone could have. In a way I'm pleased I've heard this because it confirms to me the mentality of mainstream religion. It tells me they think children are easy pickings for indoctrination, the "get them while their young" brigade. The transparency is breathtaking.
As oldsoul rightly said …. It’s criminal.[/]
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 3:03:36 PM | I think this is a good thing. Not because it will make people think more. People think a lot less than when I was a kid. But it will do one of 2 things:
1) It could make children see any book or film that tries to show such ideas as a fairy story, thus completely destroying the ability of any anti-religious writer to try to convince his audience of falsehood, without proper rigorous, logical proof. Thus, only true logic will remain.
2) It could make children adopt similar beliefs, thus fostering more and more differences between religious and non-religious groups. From what I have seen, this has led to religious fundamentalism and anti-religious censorship, and little in-between, often leading to violent clashes between these 2 extremist groups. Such violence leads to more and more violence, until the aftermath of such violence is so abhorrent, the remaining children find both extremes abhorrent and disgusting in nature, and avoid such extremes for many long years.
It would be nice to see people think more, but as Nietzsche pointed out, philosophers make their own truths to justify their own actions. This seems to be quite prevalent at the moment. | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 3:08:22 PM | CHILDREN CANNOT THINK FOR THEMSELVES!
Neither could a few hundred million Chinese commies - now there's indoctrination for you... | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 3:10:36 PM |
This is the greatest misconception anyone could have. In a way I'm pleased I've heard this because it confirms to me the mentality of mainstream religion. It tells me they think children are easy pickings for indoctrination, the "get them while their young" brigade. The transparency is breathtaking.
As oldsoul rightly said …. It’s criminal.
It should be very obvious that religion targets children for indoctrination. The majority of young children will believe anything they are told by authoritive figures (parents and adults in general). That's why things like Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, Boogeyman and many other fictional concepts hold such sway over them.
Start preaching to children about religion, with threats of eternal horror and suffering if they do not believe and follow that religion's teachings, then couple that with the conviction of adults who believe it themselves, and presto! You have kids terrified to believe otherwise.
I've talked to people who eventually gave up their religion because they became too smart for it. Suffice to say it's a very frightening and saddening event when you learn just how much brainwashing and indoctrinated fear they had to get over. Unfortunately many never really do. | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 4:23:01 PM | So who wants to sneak a few beers into the theater, watch "Golden Compass" and Yell out Bible verses with me? I'll call all the nuns with their rulers to smite the evil doers!!!
I just want to know if Nicole Kidman takes ff her shirt in the flick!!!!
A quesion for the OP....did you also protest Dan Brown and the Davinci Code? That was an AWESOME movie!!! Too bad no good sex scenes, though.... | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 4:45:34 PM | How sad is it when people take a work of fiction so literal and not see it for what it is,a story,its not real,it only promotes evil if you let it.So lets go to the movie and enjoy it for what it is A MOVIE AND THATS IT! IMHO | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 4:57:36 PM | First off, yes, I am a Christian.
..and quite a handsome one that. ~hubba hubba
I was not only disgusted with what I learned about this movie, but also deeply sadened.
Me too, doll, really I am. However....
It is NOT your right to try to fill our children's minds with hate for God!
While infact no one has that right, no one can without our permission.
As a Christian mother, when my children were young, I would not allow them to watch anything that I found to be offensive. (this movie teaching that God is evil would certainly qualify)
Now that they they are both teenagers, they have the ability to discern for themselves what movies are acceptable. It is ultimately the responsability of the parent to protect their children from such trash.
Besides, God says that no man (or movie) can snatch His children from His hand.
~altruist80, Im glad to see you in the forums and hope to see even more of ya here, doll.  | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 5:01:32 PM |
Besides, God says that no man (or movie) can snatch His children from His hand.
I think you just qualified some re-runs hun. | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 5:10:30 PM |
Were you raised this way - parents instilling in you the idea that you cannot think for yourself? And will you raise your children in the same manner - stripping from them their critical thinking skills and their objectivity and spoon-feeding them your beliefs rather than letting them decide for themselves? Will you destroy their autonomy or will you encourage them to think for themselves?
I wonder how much more empowered you would be if your parents had fostered an independence in you rather than convince you of your inability to think for yourself.
Of course children can think for themselves. They have their own personalities too. To believe otherwise is merely an attempt to legitimize brainwashing.
You didn't ask me, but I'll answer as a parent of two healthy (in mind, body, and spirit) adults. I did the my best, motivated by love, to bring my children up as I saw fit. I didn't consult non-parents and naysayers. I did consult healthy parents and seek wisdom where I thought it best to find it. And I never bothered myself with how other parents nurtured their children or considered myself sufficiently qualified to do so.
How are you doing as a parent? | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 5:43:59 PM |
...but what propaganda has Christianity unleashed upon children that promotes exclusion and separation from people who aren't Christians?
It's called the Bible.
Anyway this thread is the LULZ. Has anyone heard that if you read The Golden Compass backwards you'll find evil messages in it? | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 7:12:29 PM | what propaganda has Christianity unleashed upon children that promotes exclusion and separation from people who aren't Christians? We don't teach our children to disbelieve and hate. We don't teach them to hate Allah, Buddah, and aetheism. We try not to give them negativity.
We?? You are speaking for everyone of your faith? That is pretty bold considering what has been done in its name! What a joke...
Well, given the chorus of those who think themselves able to discern what every Christian believes, the better to attack the Straw Man they create, I can see how someone might speak to the opposite pov.
How about we all agree to the following:
Some Christian parents bring up their children in harmful ways. Some don't.
Some Muslim parents bring up their children in harmful ways. Some don't.
Some Jewish parents bring up their children in harmful ways. Some don't.
Some Buddhist parents bring up their children in harmful ways. Some don't.
Some Atheist parents bring up their children in harmful ways. Some don't.
Some Agnostic parents bring up their children in harmful ways. Some don't.
And some of the parents that don't fit into any of the above categories bring up their children in harmful ways. Some don't.
Did I miss anyone? Good. | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 7:48:49 PM | Well, having read the series twice (and the Bible a bunch too), I have a personal opinion on this topic.
Regardless of whether the books attack Christianity or not, if children take them at all seriously they are taking seriously miracles, magic, talking animals and bears that can't be lied to. All of these things are equivalent in nature to other illogical belief systems, essentially being romantic and irrational. This makes them more likely to believe in transubstantiation, resurrection and loaves and fishes multiplying like rabbits.
In other words, if children were as credulous as you seem to think, then every child in the world would grow up incapable of being an engineer or scientist due either to the wooliness of their thinking or the inability to separate the two spheres.
As there are many logical, rational people in the world, your argument holds about as much water as a toothpick. Please do try again.
Cheers,
Mike (but this time use the brains evolution provided for you) | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 8:29:46 PM |
It would be nice to see people think more, but as Nietzsche pointed out, philosophers make their own truths to justify their own actions. This seems to be quite prevalent at the moment.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
I cannot believe I must resort to arguing the point of the influenability of children , but here goes. My oldest son is 7 years old. We do not have the final results for his IQ test, but he scored at 3 standard deviations above average in matrix reasoning placing him in the 99% percentile of his age group in this element. This is genius for any of you unfamiliar with current psychological standards and testing proceedures. Of course he can reason. He is very sharp on most matters that other children do not even consider at his age. Does that mean I would trust him to get married, run a country, play violent video games, drink in moderation, and make life-altering decisions ? Anyone else seen what happens when a child is allowed to run his own life? I have a cousin in jail at 20 years old because his parents always trusted him to reason out what's best for him. Let's not mention the extensive psychological proof of this point. A president cannot even take office unless he is 25 years of age or older, and other restrictions are places on minors due to their inability to properly determine the moral value of outside influences. You say you can raise a child to think for himself. Well, there's your influence right there. He will not think for himself. He will mimic you until he is truly able to do so (this is proven). He will seek your approval, and if he must disagree to have that approval, he will. Any parent knows that children are in an age of discovery and development, so I don't really know where the cookie argument holds any water. He is influenced by the cookie. Let me give you another example of being influenced by the cookie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7QVbJnSPQE
Free Video!!! Price: One Soul! All you must do is deny God.
You speak of hate, abuse, and torture. Your groups are torturing young people by filling them with guilt because decisions they make at these ages. You stop at nothing to fight God, even when the price is the mind and soul of a child. Do not speak to me of hate. | |
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| Golden Compass Promotes Hate
Posted: 11/13/2007 8:55:26 PM |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7QVbJnSPQE
Free Video!!! Price: One Soul! All you must do is deny God.
You speak of hate, abuse, and torture. Your groups are torturing young people by filling them with guilt because decisions they make at these ages. You stop at nothing to fight God, even when the price is the mind and soul of a child. Do not speak to me of hate.
Why oh why must I feel compelled to step up and point out how wrong you are??
I have no hate for any religion. None. To each his own! However, do not tell me that a child cannot reason for themselves what is best in certain situations. When it comes to religion, I was constantly asking why, how, when. And never given an answer beyond "it is faith dear. You must have faith." Sorry.. but that is bullshit in my eyes. Offended. I call it like I see it.
I was able at the age of 9 to reason that christianity had way too many loopholes for my taste. That it contradicted itself. And I was able to reason out that there had to be some other religion out there to learn about.
I was 17 when I found Wicca and I took to it whole heartedly, learning of it, absorbing it. I was 19 when I found Asatru. And that is the one that resonated in me. My entire childhood was spent reasoning and thinking for myself on what was best for ME.
I am now a parent and I give my children the same ability. They read about the religions that interest them and then they come to me and ask questions. I answer what I can and find them someone who can when I cant.
It is NOT hate just because someone does not believe as you do. It is called free will to choose what works best for each of us. I am sorry you are so offended by a fictional book. If you are so secure in your faith, you would not be so threatened.
As for parents raising their children.. you are not the morality police. You are not the one who says what is right and what is wrong. Raise your children as you see fit (I do feel sorry for them) and let everyone else raise their kids as they see fit.
In the face of your blinding hate, I hope that your god can open your eyes to show you the way to acceptance.
~Freya | |
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