|
|
|
|
|
| | Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...Page 18 of 19 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19) | If a man doesn't want to have a kid then he shouldn't leave the birth control up to the woman
| |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 12:28:05 AM | | Fleur, I don't think all men leave birth control up to the woman. However, if both parties have made their feelings known on the subject of having children, they both agree to use birth control and the woman tells the man she's using it....then stops using it without telling him ~ well, you have a whole 'nother ball game then. | |
|
x_file
| | Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 398 | |
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 12:51:38 AM |
If a man doesn't want to have a kid then he shouldn't leave the birth control up to the woman
Couldn't agree more.
Could we also agree that if a man wants kids and the woman shares his view, and they have kids, both are responsible for their kids?
If so, then if a man informs a woman that he doesn't want kids, and the woman shares his view, she too is responsible for birth control.
And the person who failed at his or her responsibility is the one who should deal with the consequences.
And in this case, both failed at birth control, therefore both should deal with the consequences. | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 1:58:39 AM | unfortunately these things happen, accidentally or on purpose.
the only problem is WHY IS IT DOWN TO THE WOMAN-no offense to take precautions.
if it was a sex only relationship then both parties should ensure that babies are not made.
unless both parties were not bothered -this could be the case.
maybe the sex only thing turned a corner and its a love thing now.
why else would you introduce them to your family.
have you asked these questions .
a good friend now would support and never say i told you so.
whos say is it on whether this baby is kept, well thats upto them to sort, ultimately though if the lady wants to keep it then its her body and her right.
men dont really tend to get the final decision on this , the choices are past .
so men if trickery is out there, then take your OWN precautions to ensure you dont end up in the same position.
| |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 4:56:56 AM | "It appears to me that my friend was duped into fatherhood not only by his girlfriend but..."
Regardless of circumstances of relationship, wanted or unwanted pregnancy from either party, family/social peers and what the law states a man is always the only one responsable.
Imho, twisting that idea, he has really the last word regarding conception if he thinks with the head over the shoulder instead the one between his leg.
Since a woman has the right to abort, give birth and opt for adoption -if he doesn't put his name in the putative registry- and he has no say in the outcome after conception then his focus and only available recourse is to avoid that conception.
According to the law, right or wrong, the msg is very clear: is always men fault, women are exempt of accountability.
If a man doesn't want to risk the possibility of fatherhood and its financial responsability then he shouldn't never trust a woman, never get involved with a woman with children, never be in a relationship and never get married.
After all that was the purpose of the open agenda for the destruction of marriage/relationship and the nuclear family. Still, an alternative possibility is left: dates only, fuking her in the as... and nothing more.
| |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 7:58:23 AM | I'm Canadian!
Actually,here's another somewhat similar case that never went to court!
Basic background not to bore you:
Guy...26...Computer Tech...College Diploma...making fair amount per year...owns a good car/house/etc.
Girl...21...Sales Clerk Woman's Store...never finished Grade 10...minimum wage...owns basically nothing...was living with 2 other female room-mates.
Couple were going out together for 2 years...agreement was made by both while being well known to others that the relationship was purely sexual with no long-term commitments strictly to avoid health problems and because she wanted to become a hair-dresser...further agreement both decided not to use condoms and went with the pill...slight twist to story...deal was actually made at a Health
Clinic with both members present in front of a councillor at his suggestion as she had problems with IUD's (but not confirmed)...the guy also agreed to support a child in case of "accidental" birth nothing more if it happened and she made it clear that she never had an abortion.They both acted in a responsible manner...but was anyone lying and was the honesty real?
Half a year later the girl lost her job,was not accepted at a regular college and went back home to live with her drunk parents as the other room-mates wanted someone else who was employed to pay their share...the guy agreed she could stay with him for 3 months until she got a new job/place/etc...if she didn't she would have to go back to her parents place because he was moving for another better job...after moving in she claimed she was pregnant...something was fishy with the dates as they had no sex during this time because of the problems...he immediately told her to get out and she didn't want to leave...he was advised to kick her out and she was forced to go back to her parents after she called the cops claiming she lived with him...there was no evidence of that and they removed her.
Conclusion:
To make a long story short...she never aborted...she gave birth...sued for support...he was way ahead of her...they found out she had two prior abortions,went off the pill way before moving in with him through information obtained from the room-mates and now there was a new guy on the scene...the guy she slept with when she originally went back to her parents (an old BF) and stayed there a while out of town...everything proved the guy in this case was right 100% and she decided not to pursue it further.
Another guy would have run in fear of the courts or just pay or worse let her stay...luckily he had the determination/money /father who was a cop to fight it without getting his nuts cut off by the system with unfair laws that are part of every department from drugs to corporate corruption...it has nothing to do with not wearing condoms or taking responsibility for mistakes you never made...it has to do in most cases making agreements with actors who turn out to be totally dishonest and a justice system that forces you into debt to obtain your rights with idiotic attitudes/defences that have been displayed in this thread.And believe me he didn't have a lawyer/PI from Legal Aid and for his sake the money he dished out was well spent considering he has a future now.
By the way...the real father who was poor disappeared...true street JUSTICE at it's best...the only kind!
True ignorance is not a usable defence in a civilized country,you can't assume all women are moral,especially in our society today just like the men...and if you assume people are honest that may be the problem as there are few around...but the solution is not to pay your 50% even if it's not your fault...the solution is to make the guilty party pay 100% through a just system and actually that's exactly what you have to do...stand up in court right to the judge's face to demand to be heard and push for what you believe in.Doesn't matter if you're the dishonest woman in this case or a man who beat his wife/kids and tries to get off...you go after the guilty party and not the innocent.And the only ones you should protect are the mistreated/abused/helpless and victims,not the losers that try to beat the system and prosper from flawed laws...and supporting the dishonest to make a point for your own purpose has no value/ honour or future for our society. | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 8:16:33 AM |
grapevine: "(Guess what? All of your personal insults aside, a man STILL is responsible for half the support of any child he fathers)."
"All of your personal insults aside, a man STILL is responsible for half the support of any child he fathers OR THE COST OF THE ABORTION."
There. I fixed it for you to make it fair and accurate. Your version is just a rich fantasy inside your head based up your determination to turn men into demons and then hold them accountable. That's really what's going on here. You can't see it but the rest of us can.
And I'm with Johny. There's really nothing we can do for you here, you might consider getting therapy to get over your internal rage at the injustice that some man has perpetuated against you. Until you fix that you're only going to attract--as Johny has suggested--the type of guys who'd temporarily tell you what you want to hear and then dump you like the others have.
To all the guys: Let's pack this up. She's not worth our time. For what it's worth I spoke with my new girlfriend before participating in this thread and we talked in detail about what we'd do in the case of an unwanted pregnancy. I'd suggest you guys have a lengthy conversation before having sex with someone and talk through this issue. This is going to be your best protection against ending up with someone who's got a warped sense of reality and fairness. I think what we've learned here is that you need to weed out the flakes before having sex with them--the downside risk is a few hundred thousand dollars. | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 8:33:19 AM |
To make a long story short...she never aborted...she gave birth...sued for support...he was way ahead of her...they found out she had two prior abortions,went off the pill way before moving in with him through information obtained from the room-mates and now there was a new guy on the scene...the guy she slept with when she originally went back to her parents (an old BF) and stayed there a while out of town...everything proved the guy in this case was right 100% and she decided not to pursue it further.
I find this kind of behavior appalling. Women like that should be held accountable for their lies and deception ~ particularly the ones who succeed in manipulating a man into giving her child support he shouldn't be paying. And women like the one the OP describes...how is it right or fair that women like this get away with that?
No matter what the man wants or doesn't want, no matter what he's led to believe, he's still supposed to pay child support for 18 years of his life just because some woman wants to get pregnant? Those women need to either be up front and find a man willing to impregnate them with no strings attached or they need to go to a sperm bank. But to lie, deceive, and manipulate someone into a position like that is unforgivable. Even more unforgivable when you think of the innocent child that gets to suffer the consequences of having an immoral bottom dweller for a mother. | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 8:53:10 AM | TakeMeTheWayIAm:
Amen brother...Amen...couldn't agree with you more...you made solid points much better than myself and wish you well in your life...it was nice to watch...
I think one of the things you mentioned in particular was absolutely brilliant my friend...the part basically where you have two questionable individuals and you put the care of the baby under responsible parents by also making the sperm/egg givers pay for the support...even if there are initial problems with that conditions eventually will improve in time if done carefully and the kid will have a much better chance at life...there is something like that here but not even close and of course great ideas are often over-looked for stupidity.Furthermore,the kid would get what ever support was granted and with proper care-givers the situation would be improved...the money wouldn't go for booze/drugs/etc or more of those BC pills that don't seem to mysteriously work for some women.Overall that suggestion was much more logical than screaming...Make Da Guy pay!
And Grapevine do me a favour...don't send me any more messages...there's nothing to discuss privately and I don't want to get in the middle of your anger...Thanks! | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 9:17:53 AM |
JohnieTheWiseGuy: "Amen brother...Amen...couldn't agree with you more..."
You were doing alright without my help. I just couldn't stand watching there without saying anything.
Was watching some show about how a developing fetus will send chemical signals in an attempt to control its surroundings, increasing the mother's blood flow and appetite. For all we know, maybe the fetus sets up a command center down there and taps in to the cerebral cortex of the mother.  | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 9:25:00 AM |
a man is always the only one responsable. . . he has really the last word regarding conception . . . . Since a woman has the right to abort, give birth and opt for adoption. . . he has no say in the outcome after conception. . . his focus and only available recourse is to avoid that conception
the msg is very clear: is always men fault, women are exempt of accountability.
You lose me, than I find you again, then you lose me again.
I've never heard of a man pushing out a baby!!!!
I've never heard of a man bleeding to death from a botched up abortion.
I've never heard of a man agonizing over the choice to give up a child they can't afford, after that child has grown inside of them, kicked them and come out of their body.
Can you please explain to me again, how women are exempt of accountability?
We become accountable as soon as that fetus begins to grow inside of our bodies. We cannot help but be accountable, because lack of accountability has the ability to cost us our LIVES.
he's still supposed to pay child support for 18 years of his life just because some woman wants to get pregnant?
NO, he's paying child support for 18 years because he GOT some women pregnant, that's why.
think of the innocent child that gets to suffer the consequences of having an immoral bottom dweller for a mother.
The only time the child suffers is when their fathers are immature and ignorant and make an innocent child suffer for THEIR mistakes.
I know a woman who's husband cheated on her and got a woman pregnant. He claims that he didn't know she could get pregnant, blah, blah. the woman had the baby, a beautiful, beautiful little girl. She comes over and and we all have a grand time. No one faults the CHILD for the circumstance of her birth, neither the father, WHO LOVES HER, the ex-wife, who LOVES HER, or the family who all LOVE HER.
What is missing from the men who are B!TCH!N' so loudly is understanding and love. | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 9:32:11 AM | It is very tough to stand by and watch your freind make mistakes that are clearly visible in your eyes . When people are in love they see with rose colored glasses and it is hard to see the forest for the trees even for the most analytical mind. (so give the guy a break for being human)
However some of the worst mistakes people make lead to the most precious events . So I wouldn't be that downtrodden . It's just like with kids all you can do is plant seeds...... and hopefully someday they will germinate and grow into fulfillment and be happy.
As far as your question does birthcontrol fail absolutely!!!!!
Gods plan has a way of materializing under any circumstances.
Should she have been more concientious yes BABYS SHOULD BE BORN OUT OF LOVE TO PEOPLE WHO WANT THEM -------THEY DESERVE THAT!
So weather she manipulated the situation or just was subconcously lazy out of some desparate need to have a child is water under the bridge.
Today is today and we have only that to work with.
let your freind come back to you on his own time just let him know that he has your support no matter what and you will be there for him no matter what. | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 10:27:16 AM | | Ok TMTWIA, say the pregancy was a total accident. Neither party was planning to have a baby, but the woman opted to keep it. The man didn't want to. He just dropped out of their lives. She didn't sue for child support. Then a year or two later, after thinking it over, decides he wants to see the child. Should he now have to pay child support? | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 10:29:59 AM | Ref msg 460 : "You lose me, then I find you again, then you lose me again"
Sorry for my shortcomings to make my pov more clear. I'll try again.
After conception, only the woman has all rights over the outcome to decide for abortion or to give birth.
Regardless the circumstances of the sexual relation, wanted or unwanted pregnancy by either party, is only up to her personal and her exclusive choice what to do about it without considerations -if she choose that also- man's opinion.
Since a man has no say/choice other than to accept, without recourse, the woman's choice to opt for abortion, regardless man's wishes... she is not accountable for the emotional damage inflicted upon the want to be father.
Since a man has no say/choice other than to accept, without recourse, the woman's choice to carrry pregnancy to term, regardless man's whishes... he is responsable and obligated to pay child support if she pursues the claim. She is not held accountable for her decision about her own emotional/financial situation to be a mother, nor is held accountable for what may be an emotional/financial burden upon a forced fatherhood, nor is held accountable for her decision of becoming a mother regardless the means to an end including, but not limited, to paternity fraud.
Since a man has no right, nor choice, nor control of the situation -after conception- other than to assume the consequences of her sole decision regarding pregnancy... the only available recourse for a man is to be in control before conception occurs.
That is, to take all available and possibles measurements to avoid an unwanted pregnancy or to relay on a woman's word if wanted pregnancy.
If a woman choose to carry pregnancy to term and to opt for adoption -either from the begining or later time decision- is also, her only prerrogative choice without accountability. The only available legal protection to men to claim his parental's rights is to put his name in the putative father registry that is btw, a chatch 22 if he later changes his mind.
Either way, he is always responsable for his actions.
She always free to do as she pleases. If accountable, only to self, at her discretion and not to others. | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 10:41:41 AM |
NO, he's paying child support for 18 years because he GOT some women pregnant, that's why.
Ladies...this is where the disconnect lies. If you want equality in the workplace...stop playing the victim. If you want equality where you do your banking, shopping, where you get your coffee...stop playing the victim. If you want to walk down the street alone late at night and actually be safe, then stop playing the victim. If you want equality at home, for goodness sake, stop playing the victim.
Charlamagne and Pisces have said it clearly. The men here have said it clearly. If you want the equal rights that your grandmothers fought for...that Hillary fights for...that Palin I'm sure will fight (a losing battle) for...then you need to accept that to have equal rights you must first be willing to extend them. Otherwise you have nothing. | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 10:50:00 AM | ^^^^^^^^^^You may want to take your own advice, you seem to be crying quite a bit about how all these poor men who are surprised that they are having sex and then a pregnancy happens! Holy crap, what craziness is this? Who knew that babies happened when you have sex? Right out of the blue, this oddity happens! Who would have saw this happening? Not them apparently.......
think what we've learned here is that you need to weed out the flakes before having sex with them--the downside risk is a few hundred thousand dollars.
DUH. You think so dude? Who would have thought that actually thinking about who you are having sex with would be so important? Funny thing is that the only thing many of these men are complaining about is the financial aspect, not at all about the fact that they participated in creating a life that now hangs in the balance..... | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 11:02:08 AM | I think each situation has the potential to be different. There are accidental pregnancies and there are women and men who want their babies and who don't want their babies. Both the man and the woman have certain rights that need to be respected. Unfortunately, it often doesn't happen that way, so a certain amount of self-preservation needs to be involved. No one "deserves" to get screwed over.
The thing is that laws based around a "he said, she said" don't work. Unless there is a contract in writing in place, you can't tell what really is the truth...was it accidental, was one lying, is one changing their mind from the original agreement, etc. A guy is just as able to change his mind at the point that something happens. My ex was like that and after the divorce admitted that if I had turned up pregnant he would have disappeared, despite the fact that we discussed that issue already and had an agreement. I would stay on birth control and not try for a baby, and we'd raise the kid together if there was an "oops." The only thing the law can uphold is a written contract and physical proof (DNA proving who made the baby).
What this ultimately should tell people is that they should be more careful in selecting who they sleep with. On the story where the guy was with a girl for 2 years and it turned out she was a cheater and lier, was there no indication before that there might be a problem? Or does good sex override all other abilities to make a good decision in choice of partners (that includes if it's "just sex")?
As much as women get blamed for choosing the "bad boy," men have to be equally to blame for choosing the "bad girl." In the case of accidents, if one has a solid relationship, it can be discussed in a reasonable fashion and a decision made that is acceptable to both parties. If the relationship was not solid, then again, one needs to exercise self preservation. How come no one seems to consider dating a woman who is a bit more trustworthy? | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 11:04:11 AM |
How come no one seems to consider dating a woman who is a bit more trustworthy?
Maybe they arent hot enough?  | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 11:11:29 AM |
Maybe they arent hot enough?
Just wanted to say thanks to you for adding so much gold to the debate here. Thanks for being a part of the solution instead of just trolling and man bashing. | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 11:14:28 AM |
prairiechick2: "Ok TMTWIA, say the pregancy was a total accident. Neither party was planning to have a baby, but the woman opted to keep it. The man didn't want to. He just dropped out of their lives. She didn't sue for child support. Then a year or two later, after thinking it over, decides he wants to see the child. Should he now have to pay child support?"
Under the you-can't-have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too rule, of course. Not only should he in this case *start* paying child support but he should make every attempt to also pay the back child support that he would owe. Him suddenly changing his stance a year or two later doesn't negate the fact that the mother had to pay all the expenses herself over that period.
But also in this case she should have the right to opt out of this arrangement and not take his money nor allow him visitation rights. By this time she might have developed a new relationship and this new father figure could be fulfilling the role nicely in the biological father's absence. | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 11:16:49 AM | Think about what you just said WSYT. Equality. If a man and a woman are doing the same type of work in the workplace, they both should get the same pay. If a man and a woman are walking down the street alone at night, both deserve to be safe. Physically a man can defend himself better. This is why women get hurt more frequently. Equality in the home? Equality at the bank, shopping, going for coffee??? Say what? That's where you lost me.
The reason why men don't have an equal say in if a woman wants to keep the baby or have an abortion is because she has that baby inside her body. He doesn't. This is not the fault of the woman. It's just the way God made it.
Guys you need to stop crying about things you can't change. Put yourself in the shoes of the woman. If the baby was inside you, would you honestly let her have the say in keeping the baby or not? I doubt it. If a woman wanted to have a doctor perform a vasectomy on you without your permission, how would you feel about that? It's your body right? No one has the right to do something to someone else's body that they don't want to happen to it. | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 11:24:29 AM | Vasectomy?
That can be interesting to discuss but, it will be off topic.
It's not written on the laws but, almost all clinics have as a policy that a married man needs a spouse's consent or acknowledge to perform the procedure to avoid a lawsuit because interfieres with her reproductive rights.
Incidentally, the same legal premise supporting Roe v Wade is denied to men. | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 11:31:19 AM |
grizzelda: "DUH. You think so dude? Who would have thought that actually thinking about who you are having sex with would be so important?
I *already* wouldn't date a variety of flakes: 1) women who are interested in my finances, the type of car I drive, whether I own or rent; 2) women who think sex is a sin; 3) women who mention God as if he's an invisible friend who's sitting in her car when she drives...
I'm just adding a new criterion for flakiness: 4) thinking that an accidental pregnancy *must* lead to having a baby and that abortion and the morning after pill are not under consideration.
grizzelda: "Funny thing is that the only thing many of these men are complaining about is the financial aspect, not at all about the fact that they participated in creating a life that now hangs in the balance....."
I think I'm one of the few people here who hasn't been tagging my responses with laughing smileys all the while.
In fact... here's an anecdote that might be enlightening to you, to get you to understand me slightly better. I hope that you read it.
I was doing some volunteering on a self-help forum and a 17-year-old girl from Wales was gang-raped by her ex and his friends at knife-point. I knew her from the forum for maybe six months and she was my friend. I advised her *not* to quit college to have this baby (not even knowing which of the guys was the father). I convinced her to go to the clinic and have an abortion, which she ultimately did after about two days on my part of persuading her.
She felt very guilty about doing it and started to immediately slide into depression. In the short time of knowing that she was pregnant she had developed some sense of identity as a mother (which often happens) and she was so ready to abandon all her educational and career plans for this new identity.
And so, I dropped everything I was doing and flew out to London (from California), rented a car and drove eight hours in the rain to see her. We walked on her break at the campus and we talked about how she felt. I did my best to convince her that she wasn't a fuck up or a horrible person. And I got back in the rental car and I drove back to the airport and flew back home. This seemed to be enough to let her get back to her plans and move on. | |
|
| Sorry Hun, I'm Pregnant...
Posted: 8/29/2008 11:40:13 AM | Say what? That's where you lost me.
That's unfortunate as it is the foundation of my arguments. It's really just about accepting responsibility for your own equality...basically it's there if you want it but you need to take ownership of it, and sadly I feel that many women simply don't. Time will change that though.
The reason why men don't have an equal say in if a woman wants to keep the baby or have an abortion is because she has that baby inside her body. He doesn't. This is not the fault of the woman. It's just the way God made it.
Well I don't believe in God...but for the sake of argument...not one man here has tried to argue with the biology of the situation. We all know where babies come from. Now please do me a favour and let the next troll who comes into this thread and spouts this same rhetoric know that we men have acknowledged that it is you ladies who give birth.
There...
Guys you need to stop crying about things you can't change.
That would make me a quitter. Rehab is for quitters. Frankly, I think we can change the fact that men are treated unfairly. It would be nice if more women were there to support us but judging by what I've read here...we've got excellent allies in a few of the women here.
Put yourself in the shoes of the woman. If the baby was inside you, would you honestly let her have the say in keeping the baby or not? I doubt it. If a woman wanted to have a doctor perform a vasectomy on you without your permission, how would you feel about that? It's your body right? No one has the right to do something to someone else's body that they don't want to happen to it.
More of the same emotionally charged and misguided rhetoric and it's been addressed everytime it's brought up. Still..it keeps coming up like it's just been translated from the dead sea scrolls so... AGAIN...we aren't talking about taking away a woman's current right to a legal and safe abortion. Even those here who I sense are pro life have managed to keep the discussion to within the context of the current system.
So...we men are ok with the fact that you have the babies...and we're ok with the current status of abortion for women as it pertains to this discussion.
Now then...the ONLY issue we're here to discuss is extending the equivalent of an abortion(or adoption) to unwilling fathers. The best way to do this is by absolving him of any rights or responsibilities he has over the full term baby. That's it. We don't need to go to a clinic and get in some stirrups. We just need your signature. And we've effectively had the same abortion that you're entitled to. | |
|
| |
|
|
|
Page
18
of
19 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
|
|
Home
login 
