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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/17/2007 5:02:38 PM |
As for the Soldiers that went AWOL, they are a disgrace too every man and woman that wears an uniform of any country, when these young punks signed up, they weren't given forms too go too Camp at Walt Disney, they joined the Army for christ sakes, and when you take that oath, you swear too abide by the Constitution and take orders from the Commander In chief, and not everyone agree;s with the war in Iraq ...
I'm not trying to debate the war. What I am saying is that if someone in good concience realizes based on his or her best information and belief that it is unjustified, then an order to go fight in it is immoral and must not be obeyed. That was the entire point of the Nuremburg trials.
An administration can argue all it wants to that one form of torture or another is "legal." However, a soldier who follows an order to torture a prisoner is a war criminal regardless of the so-called legalities.
So is someone who fights a war that he or she knows to be unjustified.
So, when all the lies came out about our so-called justifications for going to war in Iraq, it put every soldier in a moral quandary. It is not my place to say how those soldiers should handle it, but I know what I would do. And I must say that I really don't appreciate having our brightest and best put in a compromised position like that. Not one bit.
I totally understand the need to have gone into Afghanistan after Bin Laden. And if the Taliban regime was harboring him then they became accessories in his crimes. We had a right to hunt him down and capture him to bring him and his fellow terrorists to trial, and if any regime refused to extradite him and threatened the use of force to prevent him from being apprehended, that's what soldiers are for.
BTW, when will those trials be held? Oh, that's right, we got so distracted by Iraq that w'eve forgotten about the apprehension and due process of that suspected mastermind. The entire point of the exercise was to bring those terrorists to justice and to demonstrate that the rule of law is paramount. When exactly are we going to get around to doing that?
Look. We're all p*ssed off about 9/11. But that doesn't mean we get to abandon our priniples or the thing that has made us such a great nation. We're not great because we're strong, we're strong because we're great. What makes us great is our principles, and if we give them up for expediency we won't be great for much longer, and we won't be strong either.
So instead of focusing our wrath on those insignificant twerps, I think we'd all do a lot better to take a good hard look at the people who are in a position to really hurt us all--those in leadership positions who do not appear to be following either due process or telling us the truth. Maybe they are and maybe they aren't, but if our leaders aren't acting in good faith, why should those twerps?
Tell you what. If you're willing to hold the current administration to the same level of moral conduct as you do those twerps, I won't say a word if you prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. But you can't allow the mistique of office to cloud your judgment about what this administration has been doing or why. You and I might well disagree on any number of points. But you can't countenance the lies and convict those who balk at them. You must convict them all.
Fair enough? | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/17/2007 5:25:11 PM | { QUOTE" But while Canada as a nation was not involved, Canadians themselves formed the largest foreign contingent in the U.S. military during the Vietnam era. Some estimate that their numbers far suppressed the more than 30,000 Americans draft dodgers who fled to Canada to avoid military service during the war. While exact numbers are impossible to obtain, from my work as a military historian with the Canadian War Museum, I estimate that of the many thousands who served in the U.S. Vietnam-era military, some 12,00 Canadians actually served in Vietnam itself.
{QUOTE"This intermingling of forces was not a new phenomenon. Since the American Civil War, Canadians have served in the U.S. military and, over the years 40 have won the Medal of Honor, America's highest military award. In the Spanish American War, for example, two brothers from Nova Scotia, Willard and Harry Miller, won the Medal of Honor for conspicuous bravery above and beyond the call of duty.
Some Canadians also served in the American forces during both world wars and the Korean War. Conversely, over 35,000 Americans joined the Canadian Army during World War 1 (recall that Canada was fighting the war from 1914 to 1917 before America became involved).
Again, in World War II, some 30,000 Americans, encouraged by such war movies as Captain of the Clouds, joined the Canadian forces during the period 1939 to 1941 while the United States was still neutral.
Thus, when the Vietnam War broke out, it was not unusual that Canadians would join, or allow themselves to be drafted into, the American military.
At a time when the Canadian forces were being reduced the Vietnam War afforded some Canadians youths an opportunity to join the U.S. forces and to acquire skills they would never have received in Canada, such as learning to fly or repair helicopters. Although some joined to fight communism in Vietnam, a good number joined for personal reasons, adventureEND OF QUOTE "} Quoted from Vets With A Mission , an American site.
Republiman , Canada is a country of cowards? You can not say that because of our fighting ability in war, that stands for itself. Obviously , you have gotten that because of the draft dodgers who came here in the Vietnam War. As you can see, many Canadians went there . Please check out the northwall site, listing the names of Canadians who died in Vietnam.
Also, many Canadians went south of the border to avoid pressure to enlist from 1939 till you guys finally got around to fighting in WW2. What does that make you guys then? Not cowards , that is for sure, as I am very respectful of American veterans and soldiers who have shown great courage on the battle fields.
As far as we wouldnt be there if we had a choice, I doubt that very much. Many Canadians are decieved and are uneducated of our mandate there, once it is known , things will change.
Think we are cowards, ask someone in the Airbourne who have been fighting with Canucks in Afghanistan , they will tell you differently I guarantee it. Canadian names are on the monumnet of loss soldiers as you enter Fprt Bragg.
You sir, have insulted many Canadian Veterans , who have fought with our American cousins. You have dishonoured many brave individuals, many who have paid the ultimate price, in our many battles that have been fought side by side.
Thankfully, you are the exception and not the rule, when it comes to being American. You exemplify, the worse of America, not the best that your service men and woman represent. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/17/2007 6:31:14 PM | | Dunrich, you make my point, On this sight there are nothing but canadian liberals slinging mud at my country, and the reason being is that on a global scale your just a blip on the map...Now many Americans on this sight who are also Liberal will stand by and take it, but you picked the wrong American, again I say for all the benefits Canada recieves by being our neighbor you would think you people would have more respect, as for me being the worst in America you have your oppinion, just know that I lost my father in Vietnam, I myself served from 82 too 87, and now my son serves, so my family and many others have laid down blood so you in America and Canada would have the freedoms you have...As for canada I have no respect for your country, it's cold, the food sucks, the music is non existant, hockey is boring.... | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/17/2007 6:37:38 PM |
Dunrich, you make my point, On this sight there are nothing but canadian liberals slinging mud at my country, and the reason being is that on a global scale your just a blip on the map...Now many Americans on this sight who are also Liberal will stand by and take it, but you picked the wrong American, again I say for all the benefits Canada recieves by being our neighbor you would think you people would have more respect, as for me being the worst in America you have your oppinion, just know that I lost my father in Vietnam, I myself served from 82 too 87, and now my son serves, so my family and many others have laid down blood so you in America and Canada would have the freedoms you have...As for canada I have no respect for your country, it's cold, the food sucks, the music is non existant, hockey is boring....
Canada is a First World country. It isn't dependent on the United States for any benefits. The way you put it makes it sound like Canada is dependent on the United States for it's security and prosperity. That simply isn't the case.
And WTF does Vietnam have to do with freedoms in America and Canada? Vietnam had nothing to do with American or Canadian liberties.
For someone who loves America so much you sure make Americans look bad. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/18/2007 12:04:14 AM | Republiman:
As for canada I have no respect for your country, it's cold, the food sucks, the music is non existant, hockey is boring....
I'm a conservative like you, haven't voted for a Democratic presidential candidate in a LONG time. But apparently that's where our similarities end. That statement of yours above makes me ashamed to admit ANYTHING in common with you. I have disagreements in here with some Canadian posters (as well as some American ones!) but I have much respect for Canada the country as a whole. Just want to make sure everyone understands you speak for you and you alone, not for any others - and not for conservatives or Republicans in general. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/18/2007 12:39:19 AM | Okay Dallas me and you disagree, but here is why the Canadians on here treat us Americans like they do.
There may kernels of policy disagreements with the US, but the reality is that an analysis of US-Canadian relations would be explained better by psychological factors than political or economic ones.
There are not two countries in this world more similar than America and Canada...and this simililarity is made unbearable by the huge disparities in size and influence.
In essence, Canada ends up becoming the rebellious younger sibling that resents everything its older sibling stands for, in a desperate attempt to prove its individuality. We see this psychological dynamic play out in our homes all the time...this just a macrocosm of that dynamic.
Unfortunately, many Canadians - true to the form of the rebellious and resentful younger sibling - will find this psychological analysis to be infuriating...as a truth we know deep inside but are afraid to admit often is.
In summary: grow up Canada. It's good for your psychological well-being, not to mention your relationship with the only significant economic and security partner you have. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/18/2007 12:57:30 AM | | Actually, the reason "the Canadians on here treat us Americans like they do" is because of YOUR attitudes. That's YOU Americans; not Dallas, not Americans in general, but those who think they know what's best for the world when they can't get it right at home and generally don't have much of an understanding of either. In the main, the Americans who moan about how badly "Americans" are treated [the world over, by the way] are the obnoxious minority who make themselves disliked, claim to speak for their nation, and make the rest of their nationality look bad to all. If you're treated poorly, you bring it on yourself and make everyone who associates with you look bad. Be proactive, not reactive and blameful of "anyone but me". Responsibility and pride would go a long way to help. Certainly further than finger-pointing and ignorance. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/18/2007 1:37:20 AM |
but if the Canadian public had thier way they wouldn't be...
lol.. are you so wrapped up in yourself, that you ignore your own reality?
I suggest you pay attn to your own country's support for the current wars youre involved in.
And.. You dont even see any real "world news" in the US.. just your spoon fed patriotic propaganda... Id bet you a case a beer, and a pound of back bacon, that a higher % of canucks supprt the ideals of controlling things over there, than the american public.
In summary: grow up Canada. It's good for your psychological well-being, not to mention your relationship with the only significant economic and security partner you have.
lol... yes.. Canada, and the rest of the world, are but a mirage to those who think like you... funny how, for a mirage, you seem to have to deal with so much REAL hatred directed at you.
God I have read in these forums about a hundred times how Canadians hate Americans attitudes, and the American Government, well the more I read, the more I'm inclined too say that I hope my Country has Canada in it's cross hairs next, because I'm really beginning too hate anything Canadian.
YOU, Sir, are exactly what we, and the rest of the world dislikes about the US... lol.. most of your own countrymen, would be embarressed to admit you were a fellow american.
I myself, support the ideals being fought for, even if the fights are sometimes erroniously directed, or fail at the intended effect... BUT... I support NOTHING, that YOU stand for, Sir. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/18/2007 1:40:58 AM | It's funny how often a Canadian is mistaken for an American on these boards when he doesn't throw around the usual anti-US rhetoric. I don't have to wonder how often I've been mistaken for an American on these forums since the cat is usually let out of the bag eventually. Which of course brings me to my point : Do some of the Americans on these boards bother to count Canadian opinions until they are in disagreement ? I guess not.
By American standards I'm probably a screaming commie but up here I'm a conservative. I fully support our troops and our mission in Afghanistan. I find that most people who actually have common sense tend to agree with the mission once they are properly informed on the subject. Furthermore , it's only on the extremities of the political spectrum that we find people subjecting the military itself to slander and ignorant verbal attacks. Our forces over there are not only doing a remarkable job , they are doing it under far more pressure than most of the other nations in Afghanistan. We're stationed in the south where it's basically the Afghan equivalent to the wild west. Yet most polls show us being appreciated and liked by the locals.
For that reason , DON'T CALL OUR TROOPS COWARDS . They're doing their job and they're also doing it exceptionally well. Either way , if any refused to go because they thought it was an 'immoral' mission to fight in Afghanistan I would hope they faced the full brunt of military law. In conscript armies of the Western nations it's nonsense to defend your cowardice by saying anything like "I don't think it's right". If you signed up , you waived the right to question anything but the most immediate orders and even then you'd better have a pretty damned good reason for disobeying. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/18/2007 6:26:40 AM |
as for MG, your right there Canadian troops there, but if the Canadian public had thier way they wouldn't be...
Did you ever consider that Canada has its anti Afghan mission crowd, just like the USA does?
Any country at war has a percentage of its population against it. Those who oppose the war tend to be more vocal then those who support it.
Further to this, when we went there to fight, the reasons for going were not outlined properly by our then Liberal government. (Yes a Liberal government committed us to fighting there, although they did try to shove it under the carpet)
Allot of Canadians linked Afghanistan with Iraq due to the information vacum and took a stance against it.
I am one Canadian that supports the mission in Afghanistan, but not Iraq.
Putting your life on the line to defend your country and people is honourable and brave, and should be recognized as such.
Putting your life on the line based on lies and to line the pockets of already rich men is pointless and stupid. I think soldiers who take a stand against Bush and his administration with regards to Iraq are brave. Even though I think they are brave, I do not think that it is any of Canada's buisness and we should not shelter deserters in our country. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/18/2007 7:40:02 PM |
Canada likes cowards, that was known during the Vietnam war when the draft dodgers ran up north.
I think the difference between soldiers sent to Vietnam and the ones sent to Iraq is the draft.
The soldiers that have gone to Afghanistan and Iraq were volunteers. They had a choice not to fight for their country.
The ones sent to Vietnam were mostly drafted into the forces. They had no choice to fight for their country.
If you chose to fight for your country, then you should go where your country tells you to go. If you didn't want to, why sign up?
Those deserters that fled the US during the Iraq invasion should not be treated the same as someone who had no choice in the matter.
I hope my Country has Canada in it's cross hairs next, because I'm really beginning too hate anything Canadian.
This doesn't sound like the Americans I know. I am very disappointed.......... | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/18/2007 11:44:55 PM | ms. to republiman:
You are the archetype Ugly American, people like you are the reason the US
has such PR problems world-wide.
Ignore logic and hide behind your flag. Slag other nations and proclaim
your superiority.
A nation of slugs, led by a moron.
There, how does it feel to have your attitude turned upon you?
This is a Canadian site, if you don't like the opinions of the Canadians who post here...
go somewhere else. Lavalife awaits you.... Good luck with that.
I agree that people who committed to serve of their own free will should
be held accountable. The people who came here after being drafted into
the Vietnam war is another story. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/19/2007 12:10:47 AM | For some reason the quote feature is not working........"If the commander and cheif tells you to jump off a bridge or do something against your morals. I think most people would take a pass."
Unfortunately, you are wrong. I like to think my husband would kiss the kids and I before taking that leap, but I can't be 100% sure. The unfortunate reality is this, when you VOLUNTEER to serve our country you agree to do what you are told. PERIOD. It does not give you the option of "if I agree with you". When I married my husband I knew that he belongs to our country first. We have lived separate (save for two short visits a year) for 2 years now. Don't get me started on draft dodgers, however. No one has the right to tell my child or anyone else they are required to fight for anything. I would allow someone to kill me before I would allow them to force one of my sons into war.
Now, for the Canada bashing. First, isn't directly insulting anyone against the rules on these forums? I have been suspended for calling one person a moron. People here are bashing an entire country and getting by with it. That is pretty messed up. Canada is a beautiful country and judging by the time I spent there, full of kind, considerate, wonderful people. The world could do without the kind of ignorant prejudice being shown on this thread. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/19/2007 2:47:40 AM | | I met a guy that I believe he did a type of desertion.He got his orders to go to Iraq. He cut his wrist and was brought to the hospital for mental evaluation. This was his second time getting his orders canceled.The first time his orders were canceled was he wanted to be in the US when his baby was born.I dont know the truth in that. Thats just what he told me.As for Canada not housing our deserters, I say its a good call. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/19/2007 3:02:33 AM | ...As for canada I have no respect for your country, it's cold, the food sucks, the music is non existant, hockey is boring....
You do not speak for all americans.Canada has long been an ally ww2,korea,afghanistan. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/19/2007 3:13:59 AM | Tough call, fact is these people joined a volunteer army, no matter how insanely stupid the war they are fighting now is. Then again, if we don't follow up on our treaties and agreements we're no better than those who don't.
There may kernels of policy disagreements with the US, but the reality is that an analysis of US-Canadian relations would be explained better by psychological factors than political or economic ones.
The reality is that a post that attempts to apply birth order theory or personal psychology to the field of international relations is so ridiculous that it is difficult not to use terms such as "stupid" in discussing it.
Seriously this kind of post indicates a massive lack of understanding in the field of psychology (my degree major) and political science (my degree minor). It's to put it simply absurd and a serious disservice to anyone who reads it. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/19/2007 2:54:40 PM | {" Quote Dunrich, you make my point, On this sight there are nothing but canadian liberals slinging mud at my country, and the reason being is that on a global scale your just a blip on the map...Now many Americans on this sight who are also Liberal will stand by and take it, but you picked the wrong American, again I say for all the benefits Canada recieves by being our neighbor you would think you people would have more respect, as for me being the worst in America you have your oppinion, just know that I lost my father in Vietnam, I myself served from 82 too 87, and now my son serves, so my family and many others have laid down blood so you in America and Canada would have the freedoms you have...As for canada I have no respect for your country, it's cold, the food sucks, the music End of Quote"}
#1 Funny, we are all liberals up here, yet on another post there have been several Canucks who have been argueing ,with Liberal Americans agaisnt us fighting in Afghanistan, one who refers to her country as being run by neo Nazis. Got accused of being a neo con, war monger there, by Americans.
#2 Canada is a blip on the map? Well we are the 3rd largest contributor to the Nato operations in Afghnaistan, 1 of only 4 countries who have their troops in the deadly south. We were the only country besides Britain and you guys, who fielded an army for D Day
#3 I have always shown respect for America , and have always defended her, even against your own countryman who knock het at times.
#4 I am very sorry you loss your Dad in Vietnam, like I mentioned, check the northwall site, ( The North Wall is a memorial for those Americans who fought in the Canadian forces , and Canucks who served and died in Vietnam, it is on the Detroit River in Windsor, paid for by a group of Michigan veterans, they are the best.) it shows Canadians who were loss in Vietnam .30,000 to 40,000 Canadians volunteered for Vietnam, 12,000 that they know of fought in country there. There were probably more Canucks who volunteered for Vietnam, than came here as draft evaders.
#5 Many Canadians have shed their blood as well, in fact when population size is taken into account, Canada leads that statistic in ww1 , ww2, and now in Afghanistan among our allies. You sir, do not have to teach me about the blood that has been loss. Many of my family members did that quite well, one especially who went missing after being shot down in Vietnam in 1965. I am well aware of the sacrifice, am very respectful of those who have paid the ultimate. My list, also respects Americans who have paid for my freedom. Your sir, spat on the Canadians who served and paid the price for your freedom. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/19/2007 3:08:00 PM |
Dunrich, you make my point, On this sight there are nothing but canadian liberals slinging mud at my country, and the reason being is that on a global scale your just a blip on the map...Now many Americans on this sight who are also Liberal will stand by and take it, but you picked the wrong American, again I say for all the benefits Canada recieves by being our neighbor you would think you people would have more respect, as for me being the worst in America you have your oppinion, just know that I lost my father in Vietnam, I myself served from 82 too 87, and now my son serves, so my family and many others have laid down blood so you in America and Canada would have the freedoms you have...As for canada I have no respect for your country, it's cold, the food sucks, the music is non existant, hockey is boring....
Don't feed the troll... | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/19/2007 4:16:09 PM | Don't feed the troll...
You got that right!
There was a recent study that looked at how peoples' political opinions correlated with their entertainment preferences. It turns out that people who hold opinions that most would classify as "liberal" or "moderate" prefer forms of entertainment that challenge their beliefs and expand their horizons. People who's opinions could be classified as "conservative" prefer forms of entertainment that confirm their beliefs and do not challenge their worldviews. I guess that also goes for simple conversation as well.
My Grandma used to say it like this: "There's just no talking to some people."
Republiman, did you find my challenge a few posts back to be a bit too much for you?
I'm just wondering if you're willing to stretch and open your mind even a little bit.
If all you want to do is bash people, why should I waste another minute of my precious time?
I mean, your first reaction to me was to lash out at me as someone who had insulted your kid by implication. I will grant you that you apologized for that, and I appreciate it. But then, what, you just moved on to the next group to call names because it's easier than thinking for yourself?
Are you really just like that last juror in "12 Angry Men?" Or are you more like the one they had to shun? Do you have the first clue about what it is your kid is supposed to be fighting for? | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/27/2007 2:32:12 AM | to repuclicman,
Perhaps you post your comments with the intention or provoking a defensive response from Canadians....how convienient for you....perhaps you should revaluate your position on the relationship our countries are currently maintaining....it might do you good to pick your head out of your rear end and look around... | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/27/2007 3:03:06 AM |
Okay Ace I stand corrected, as for MG, your right there Canadian troops there, but if the Canadian public had thier way they wouldn't be... Republisham:
How rude! The Canadian public has always been with our nato brothers/sisters/allies. We (I) may not agree on all issues, BUT to paint an entire nation due to your SUBJECTIVE views is just............SKEWED. And hate mongering. Im my opinion.
You poo poo head. :p
I thank you. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/27/2007 5:00:48 AM |
but if the Canadian public had thier way they wouldn't be
Republiman, for the sake of your own safety...don't ever cross the border into this country. You bring your attitude into a Canadian bar, you're likely to have your ass handed to you on a maple platter.
Sorry, but there were Canadians killed in the WTC attacks, and it's as much our responsibility to bring those that are actually involved (that's why you'll never see a Canadian soldier in Iraq until the peacekeeping missions start - even then, as far as I'm concerned, you made the mess, you clean it up) to justice, imho.
I really don't think that there's dwindling support for that conflict here.
Iraq's a different story. Your people were lied to by your government about the whole thing. However, those two guys could have demanded they be sent to another flashpoint - like Afghanistan. Because they volunteered and swore an oath of service, they have a moral and ethical obligation to fulfill that oath.
Vietnam - the government was trying to force those kids into service for an illegal war. Different story - although whoever said different war - Iraq and Vietnam where started on very similar pretenses - bullshit and fearmongering. | |
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