| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/27/2007 6:51:19 PM |
Anybody who joins the army should be prepared to go to war.
When you put it that way, it makes a lot of sense.
Either these people are so desperately stupid that they are oblivious to what an army does. Or, having accepted the training and pay of a soldier knowing full well what their military duties entailed, they are dishonestly trying to weasel out of the commitment they freely entered into. Either way, these are just the sort of people that Canada, or any other country, should be refusing.
Canadians want a refugee system that helps true refugees
Like many Canadians, I think that desperately poor, viciously oppressed people trying to get out of places where they are tortured and killed should not be bumped out of line by spoiled brats who should have read the fine print before enlisting. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/27/2007 7:40:36 PM |
Like many Canadians, I think that desperately poor, viciously oppressed people trying to get out of places where they are tortured and killed should not be bumped out of line by spoiled brats who should have read the fine print before enlisting.
Ever seen the video "Who Gets In"? Pretty damning exposé of our immigration system.
Anyway, were those two bozos sent back yet? If not...why not? | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/28/2007 3:33:07 AM | ^That's not our problem up here. They don't think it's right ? Which part isn't right ? That they might have to pick up a gun and shoot somebody their commander says they have to shoot ? And the difference between that and a cause they "believe in" is .... ?
Had they been drafted it would be a different matter. They weren't. They enlisted of their own choice. If they figured they'd just polish boots and get a university degree for it , well, too bad they misunderstood what a military does. And if it was such a moral choice as they claim then why didn't they refuse while still in the US and argue their case ? That's what the truly courageous would do. The truly principled always takes the high road. These guys didn't. They decided to run. So be it. They just can't stay here and hide , that's all. Maybe they can try Cuba.
Besides, the US isn't some third world country where they behead soccer players for losing the big game. That's where real refugees come from. As far as I'm concerned these AWOL cases are morally reprehensible for sullying the intent of what is supposed to be a humanitarian policy. People who are fleeing for reasons of personal safety from a place that has deemed them unworthy of life are what the refugee policies of Western nations were designed for. It wasn't designed to cater to cowards who figured that the gun they were trained to use was just meant to make them look like bad asses. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/28/2007 1:12:15 PM |
Why is it always the grunts who get punished and not the 'leaders'
simple math,....there are more grunts,...who so far only cost the price of sending them to boot camp,....
and besides,...if you were a leader,....where would you be? | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/29/2007 2:21:14 AM | | shame on canada... as if there isn't an 'economic draft' in america... oppress a certain percentage of the population to ensure you have 'grunts' to fight for the corporate elite... most soldiers i've talked to felt they had few options... McJob or the army? they bought into the bs... then found they didn't have the stomach to kill .... then what? | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/29/2007 3:27:06 AM | ^Bullshit.
They didn't have the stomach to kill ? That's why they should take the McJob then. It's the military for crying out loud ... what is wrong with people today ? Why do people today have it in their heads that armies are supposed to fill sand bags , hand out teddy bears , and shovel snow as their primary duties ? They're issued firearms. They're issued ammunition. Grenades , machine guns , sniper rifles , tactical strike missiles , anti-tank artillery , the list goes on. These are all weapons with one purpose : kill. Specifically, to kill other people.
MAYBE if people weren't filling up kids' heads with fantasies about how they won't ever have to actually, you know, fight and stuff , they wouldn't enlist in the first place.
And the "economic draft"  ....whatever. The military is not a career that is known for its high rate of pay so the argument that it's all that was open to them is bologna. Most people can get a crummy factory job that pays the same. If they can't get a job like that then they probably wouldn't be accepted into the military either. Besides which, there are no shortage of jobs that pay moderately well but that people don't want to do. Garbage men make decent money. Probably the most physically exhausting work a person can do if employed by a private company but the pay is reasonable. Not worth it but more than a McJob pays anyway. So obviously the choice to enlist in the military isn't just about economics. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/29/2007 3:39:20 AM |
And the "economic draft" ....whatever. The military is not a career that is known for its high rate of pay so the argument that it's all that was open to them is bologna. Most people can get a crummy factory job that pays the same. If they can't get a job like that then they probably wouldn't be accepted into the military either. Besides which, there are no shortage of jobs that pay moderately well but that people don't want to do. Garbage men make decent money. Probably the most physically exhausting work a person can do if employed by a private company but the pay is reasonable. Not worth it but more than a McJob pays anyway. So obviously the choice to enlist in the military isn't just about economics.
None of these alternatives will pay for your education when you complete your tour. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/29/2007 4:52:42 AM | And therefore keep you stuck in a rut; however, we know what the army does. It's primary purpose is to attack or defend, which means if you sign up, you need to be able to deal with a kill-or-be-killed situation. Just how it goes, man.
These guys didn't look for alternatives, they just left - which implies that they thought the Iraq War was a good excuse to change careers, but would rather have waited until tehy were called. They could have demanded they be sent to a different front, but chose not to.
They shirked their responsibility, and that's their problem, not Canada's. Now it's the U.S. court system's
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/29/2007 10:20:42 AM |
They could have demanded they be sent to a different front, but chose not to.
I don't know how the US military works but here is how the Cannucks do it,....
when I was in the service,...I asked to be posted in BC, or in Germany, and they posted me as far as they could from either (Nov Scotia,.....which is exactly 5 time zones away from both),....
so in general they could care less where you want to go,...it's more where THEY want you to go,.....that's the guideline,...if you happen to choose a place they need you to be at,...then they tell you they gave you your choice,...
I'm not however saying this to justify desertion,.... | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/29/2007 10:56:30 AM | I don't normally comment on such things.....however......
I applaud some of the deserters for having the nutsack to say no to their governments murder of innocent foriegners, even when there are obvious consequences. There is a big difference between fighting for what is right and fighting for the US government. Such men of conscience are welcome in Canada any day.
I am just glad that there are are more sensible and thoughtful Americans than there are George B supporters. But if you want to go to another part of the world and be shot in order to make rich men richer then go right ahead. There is no Honor in dying for stupid reasons.
Sad that it takes a Canadian to tell some of you that.
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/29/2007 11:17:19 AM | Marita, I r Canuck :p However, I do believe we have a "consientious...whatever" clause, iirc. It doesn't get you out of battle, but it does allow you to say "hey, I disagree with this war."
Those two didn't even bother. They didn't even make an effort. So, the hell with them. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/29/2007 11:44:05 AM | I think your right,...and I'm too lazy to verify,...
I know this existed during the Korean(war, conflict police action) and Vietnam (whatever)as well,...
if it still exists after 911 and all ,....this I don't know,....
To my way of thinking,...any desertion during war is treason,...any way you look at it,..
and I actually agreed with the nurenbourg trial and their idea that "i'm just following order's isn't good enough to do absolutely anything including murder,....
Problem is,...Bush officially declaired the WAR over,..."mission accomplished" remember?
and he hasn't to my knowledge declaired war again officially so if that's then desertion during war time,...is anybodies guess,.... | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/29/2007 12:34:01 PM |
To my way of thinking,...any desertion during war is treason,...any way you look at it,..
and I actually agreed with the nurenbourg trial and their idea that "i'm just following order's isn't good enough to do absolutely anything including murder,....
Damned if you do and damned if you don't, then? I don't agree with that, and neither does our legal system. If you commit a criminal act under compulsion (you've got a gun to your head, for example), you cannot be charged to the full extent of the law, and I agree with that to an extent; mass genocide's a different story, obviously.
Anyway...I didn't know that Bush declared war on Iraq? Did he? So far as I'm aware of, it's "just" a conflict. And it isn't over until the withdrawal is signed, unfortunately. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/29/2007 6:50:37 PM |
having the nutsack to say no to their governments
Did they have the nutsack to refrain from cashing their US army paycheques? Or to refrain from voluntarily enlisting in the first place?
Have these people educated themselves on the relevant issues, contributed to meaningful public debate, or campaigned to build political support for their views? Did they even bother to vote in the last election? If their sole contribution was signing up to fight a war, reneging on their freely given commitment, then running away to sponge off another country, they don't seem very heroic.
if you want to go to another part of the world and be shot ... then go right ahead
That's what these guys committed to do when they joined the army. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/29/2007 8:01:18 PM | | I seem to recall the first Canadian killed in Viet Nam was from Kentville, NS-also I had many friends from Nova Scotia who went to Viet Nam with US military or as civilian techs and of 15 I believe two are alive- however; suicide following the war was the Redeemer-during the Viet Nam war I was a university student with many American pals-some went-some objected-not for a moment would I suggest those that were objectors were cowards-quite the opposite-they loved USA but felt the war was not a do or die for their country and was misguided in the best interests of America--- Canada benefited from many of these folks and that is good-If a person chooses not to be a soldier when his/her country is not threatened the n why must it be- if your country needs you-that is quite another story and we go back to WW!!- Is Cassius Clay a coward??? Are the well heeled American kids cowards? I doubt it ! We in Canada expect our professional soldiers to be where their leaders feel they should be in time of need- this is not conscription as was Viet Nam for a non-global war tks | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/29/2007 11:11:07 PM |
What if it's a war based on lies?
Seriously...you can't actually be saying that anyone who joined the US Army in the last few years, didn't expect in the back of their mind that they might end up on duty in Iraq???! **cough cough, nudge-nudge-wink-wink..**
What about the governments oath to tell congress the truth?
Well, that's a whole different thread, isn't it? :wink: | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/30/2007 8:59:32 AM |
shame on canada... as if there isn't an 'economic draft' in america... oppress a certain percentage of the population to ensure you have 'grunts' to fight for the corporate elite... most soldiers i've talked to felt they had few options... McJob or the army? they bought into the bs... then found they didn't have the stomach to kill .... then what/
since the first 2 people squared off against each other,....
there has allways been an economic draft,....it's a military fact,...
and the what then? I can hope but doubt I will live that long,...but let me take a stab at it,...then one of two things will happen,...
either those old guys in military uniforms with rank will have to fight,...
or,...
even worse,...peace will have to break out,....
the horror of it all,... | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/30/2007 12:40:41 PM | | Republiman, you are as entertaining as you are ignorant. You are right Canada and the US do not compare. Let see our national murder rate is lower than those found in most of your smaller cities, we have national health care system (because us liberal commies up here believe that everyone should have access to health care), we are paying down our national debt because our government runs a surplus not a deficit (you guys are 9 TRILLION and counting), a recent international study performed by an American University showed that Canadian children are more literate than American even though we spend 1/10 th the amount of money Americans spend on education (Canadian kids rank 3rd out 35 countries, American 18th), we have the 2nd largest oil reserve in the world, the largest reserve of fresh water, we pollute less and as group we are healthier. As for being the only significant economic partner we have - hello, China happens to be one heck of a big market for us (couple of billion customers who want our natural resources). Security partner? If Bush had had his way we would be in the same mess you guys are in (fortunately our politicians listened to the experts and didn't buy the weapon of mass destruction story). Aside from speaking English and occupying the same hemisphere of the globe, please explain to me how we are similar? Expand yourr horizons, read about the world around you (try reading a paper from another country, you might also want to sign up for a world history course). But then maybe that is the difficulty for YOU. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/30/2007 12:58:31 PM | | I personally am against and always have been against the Iraq war because they were not the ones that attacked our country. I would have a problem being sent to Iraq if my desire to join the milirary was to fight Al Qaida and the Taliban in Afghanistan. That being said, I would refuse to go to Iraq based on what I believe is a unjust war but I would face the consequences of my choices instead of choosing to run north of the border. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/30/2007 1:37:00 PM | I work for the Canadian Govt. and this is a misinformation as to why it was decided that the deserters were going to be shipped back to the U.S.
It is because we are tired of helping with the U.S. cleaning up its messes and paying for these people to be here. They have not earned the right to be here, they are not citizens of Canada.
We do not support this war in Iraq at all. Nor do we support what President Bush is doing with continuing this war.
We do not wish to pay for their housing and food while they look for a job here, support them and their family, school their children. We did not creat the mess to begin with.
We are already giving the elderly of your country cheaper prescription drugs to help with your problems. Why is it that the U.S. can't take care of it's own people? | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/30/2007 1:40:27 PM | | When I was 18 I joined the armed sevices. I was willing to fight on a moments call. I was born & raised as american and was willing to sacrifice my life for our country. No questions asked. However, I look at the war that were currently fighting. I first look at our President who deserted and later became president of our nation. I then look at our first intentions of the war. 1). To go over there and destroy the weapons of mass destruction 2). To over-throw the Iraq government. Well folks, there was no weapons of mass distruction. We over-threw Saddam and his followers. Then we got caught up in a civil war between the Muslims and the Shiates (sp?). A war that we have no business being in nor understand. If my son got called to duty....I would be the first to ship him out of this country to keep him out of the war. When our own politicians wont serve their country or allow their sons or daughters to serve. Why should I allow my son to sacrifice his life? Vietnam was bad enough. We made an ass out of ourselves then and were making ass's out of ourselves now. 79% of the politicians have investments in the gas and petrolem industry. Are they helping in reducing the price of gas or are they taking advantage of the situation and price gouging? Friends...They are not helping you any one of us... and we thought mexican poiticians were bad. | |
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| Wow, Canada steps up and does the right thing for a change!
Posted: 11/30/2007 2:01:13 PM |
Hey they drive me crazy on this board as much (if not more) than the next guy.
But don't write off an entire nation based on a few idiots on a message board.
^^ Unbelievable.
Using words like "cowardly", "idiots", etc. - please save your subjective spew for elsewhere. If you want to thump your chest and yell from the top of your lungs your holier-than-thou/"I'm a real man!!!" attitude then start an appropriate forum for it, yea?
As to the actual topic of this thread - let them stay in Canada.
Dammit - we're talking about peoples lives here.
If there's a war (such as WWII) where true freedom, democracy, religion, loved ones, etc. are threatened then hell yea - we all must fight regardless. One cannot enjoy the benefits of a country in safety while their brothers and sisters are sacrificing their lives to protect what is threatened. The war in Iraq is far from threatening America's survival, let alone way of life.
IF, however, there's an invasion incognito "fighting for democracy in America" where there is no real threat save financial and sphere of influence then give each soldier an out.
People quit jobs all the time for various reasons - a soldier has that much more at stake; not just his/her very life but life-altering moral corruption.
I'd die in defense of my country - but I won't die or bend my morals to benefit a select few. | |
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