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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/18/2007 11:24:10 AM |
to take it to the point that potential conversion should be abandoned is contradictory to our doctrine and ideology. It is exactly that kind of thinking that prevents me from wanting to have anything to do with christians...
But messages like Father Matthew's (search his name on youtube) amongst other shining examples make my ears perk up and give me hope... someone attempting to convert me? Won't even be breathing the same air space as me. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/18/2007 3:54:43 PM | "potential conversions"? Do you honestly believe that brow-beating someone will get them to "convert"? If you are, you fail to see that no-one comes to Christ unless the Spirit draw them. To believe that you or anyone else can do the work is to believe that the Spirit can't, and to presume that you are better able to do it. The Spirit, and only the Spirit, draws people. "Witnessing" is rarely convincing people that you're right. It's most often always being ready to give an answer for the truth that is within you. Hey, that's not me, that's Paul. I have preached, taught, and "witnessed" and have seem lots of people accept the Gospel, but never because they were "converted", only because they were seeking and the Spirit was drawing them to Jesus.
And to keep it on-topic, that includes children (and includes my children).
HTH | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/18/2007 5:09:03 PM | In a similar thread a while back, I asked the same question as follows,
Do you choose to allow your children to be raised in a vacuum of beliefs as it relates to politics, world views regarding human rights, global warming, taxes, or any other "opinion" or "belief" topics where no true "right" can be established?
Woe for your children if you do. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/18/2007 5:21:49 PM | | Once a child reaches a certain age, the child should be allowed to make his own decisions about religion. Forcing views on a grown child is not right. That has caused strain in so many families. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/18/2007 7:10:21 PM | I take my children to church with me and have had them dedicated. I am christian like their father, grandparents and so on... If one day they said to me i dont want to go any more i would never force them. I would have a talk with them about why, but you cant force a child to believe in something. Also if one day they decided to give their lifes to christ, i would talk to them and ask if thats really what they want and they understand it all.
Faith shouldn't be forced, whatever religion. Yes if you are one faith, teach your children but never force or subject your child to something that they dont believe in. They will make their own decision when the time is right, you are there to guide. love and support whatever happens. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/18/2007 8:29:24 PM | Once again, there is no force involved. Once again, if you read my other posts, this an issue of parental trust. The same goes with rebellion. If you end up dealing with rebellion and conflict, you did something wrong.
You can argue the inevitability of rebellion all you want to. I've seen good children and good teenagers who respect the wishes of their parents, and who don't enter turmoil at a certain age. Considering our behavior is learned, one can conclude that this attitude is a result of their rearing. Behavior and belief fall under the same cause: influence. If one is not the main influence in their child's life, I can see how one can argue the inevitability of deviance. I don't expect to have that problem, and have done a fine job at it thus far. It's a matter of raising a child that understands love is reciprocated, and if one can manage to do that, he will always seek to honor his parents. I don't know how you all were raised, but elders are sacred in my family and deserve the utmost respect from we younger people. I have even been told by elderly strangers that I'm very respectful and set a good example. If my child develops this attitude (which he already has), he will come to me with his questions about God.
Do you honestly believe that brow-beating someone will get them to "convert"? If you are, you fail to see that no-one comes to Christ unless the Spirit draw them. To believe that you or anyone else can do the work is to believe that the Spirit can't, and to presume that you are better able to do it.
I never presumed any such thing. I am fully aware that some people will never convert unless the Spirit draws them. The body is also the temple of the Holy Spirit, and to say that the Spirit works alone and never through men is a gross misunderstanding of scripture. Maybe we should do away with all the apostles if that is the case. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/18/2007 9:15:22 PM | Altruist:
If you end up dealing with rebellion and conflict, you did something wrong. The mantra of an indoctrinator? Wow...
Romantic Optimist, Designing Woman and Karly Kitten... awesome posts  | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/18/2007 10:59:54 PM |
I said: Do you honestly believe that brow-beating someone will get them to "convert"? If you are, you fail to see that no-one comes to Christ unless the Spirit draw them. To believe that you or anyone else can do the work is to believe that the Spirit can't, and to presume that you are better able to do it.
You said: I never presumed any such thing. I am fully aware that some people will never convert unless the Spirit draws them.
"Some"? That's "no-one". That's what Jesus said -- "no-one" comes to Him unless the Spirit draws them. No-one. Not "some". No-one. I deleted the rest of your rebuttal because I didn't say what you are rebutting. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/18/2007 11:02:00 PM | quote]In a similar thread a while back, I asked the same question as follows,
Do you choose to allow your children to be raised in a vacuum of beliefs as it relates to politics, world views regarding human rights, global warming, taxes, or any other "opinion" or "belief" topics where no true "right" can be established?
Woe for your children if you do.
If you are responding t my post, it's best to say so. If you are, you haven't read what I've written on the topic or you wouldn't ask. If it's a general observation, I agree with you mostly. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/19/2007 9:37:08 AM |
"Some"? That's "no-one". That's what Jesus said -- "no-one" comes to Him unless the Spirit draws them.
Yes, I misspoke. You are correct there. Just saying that it's a misconception that the Spirit never works through people. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/20/2007 10:30:01 AM |
Once a child reaches a certain age, the child should be allowed to make his own decisions about religion. Forcing views on a grown child is not right. That has caused strain in so many families. I watched a programme that said that the Mormons believe in this philosophy. They bring their children up in the Mormon tradition. Once they become teenagers, they are free to make their own choices, and have to join the Mormon religion by their own choice. Many of these young boys & girls get caught up in drink, drugs, and teenage sex. Some become criminals. Some consider themselves to have done so many "sins", and lewd behaviours, that they no longer believe that they can return to their community, although they admitted that it is what they want. They are homeless, and bereft of understanding of how to deal with their carnal desires and still have a happy life.
It is true that once a child becomes capable of adult decisions, it is only fair to allow them to make their own decisions. In Ancient times, when people accepted responsibility earlier, that age was about 12-13 years old. Round about now, in many people, it's when you hit 30, or sometimes later.
The time when a person becomes capable of adult decisions, is when they are making practical and responsible decisions in their own life. That is when they stop acting irresponsibly, and start using their head to make decisions, and not their desires and feelings. However, how many of us can say they have learned to temper their romantic choices with the sense they know, against their desires which they know are just going to cause them massive problems in only a few months time? | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/21/2007 6:59:43 PM | ... in contrast...
I work at an adolescent psychiatric unit and wanted to share the story of a girl who really touched me..
The girl is 14 years old and grew up in a home with her mother and a grandmother who she has wanted to move away from since she was 4, but her mother would not listen. The entire family are of the JW faith and expect her to fall in line, but this girl does not agree with much of what is presented as truth... something inside of her is telling her that it is "wrong".. it just doesn't feel right to her..
Her family was in chaos once she was finally honest about it and her grandmother wrote her letters telling her it is all her fault and quoting damning phrases from the bible..
Eventually she was kicked out and told to live with an aunt who is also a JW, still forced to fall inline, but now in a completely different city and without the comfort of her friends... which at 14 is a HUGE deal.. and cut adrift from all that she has come to know..
Because of her inner chaos she wasn't fitting in at her new school and ended up attempting to kill herself. She is now in the hospital for assessment of mental illness, which to be honest.. I see none..
Just a girl struggling to be who she is... and wanting her family to be accepting of that. Staff have spoken to them regarding the stress and turmoil this is placing on the girl and how it contributed largely to her suicide attempt... to no avail...
Unfortunately this is just one story in a multitude of many... | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/21/2007 7:16:24 PM |
but this girl does not agree with much of what is presented as truth... something inside of her is telling her that it is "wrong"
Had a very similar thing happen to me - not from my parents but attending Roman Catholic Mass - I felt something was really wrong there, especially when they started throwing the incense shaker around - kids are very spiritually perceptive ..
As JC said :-
Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it {at} {all.}" | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/21/2007 8:00:07 PM | Sassy, that story about the girl is very sad and heartbreaking. I don't think Jesus would approve of the way the family behaved toward this girl who has a different idea of faith. Faith is a very personal matter, and as a child gets older, the parents should butt out as far as what faith (or none) the child chooses. What's more important is that the child lives a good life and is a decent human being.
I can relate in a way as I have relatives who think their interpretation of religion is the only true religion, and I don't like to talk about religion with them because they are obsessed fanatics. Religion is a deeply personal matter, and whatever people want to believe in is fine with me--different people have different spiritual needs. I only object if someone tries to force their views on me. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/21/2007 10:43:15 PM |
I think I can answer within the topic. Critical thinking follows to the truth, while Christianity starts with the truth and then fits thinking to suit. Children who are taught that the truth is already stated have no responsibility to look for it themselves, and they enslave their thinking to support the published doctrine.
I totally disagree w/ your statement. Assuming for a moment that Christianity is accurate--the foundations are valid---then Christianity is the Truth. Since Christianity is the Truth then anything taught otherwise is a lie--and why would anyone teach their children false ideologies? If someone veers away from the Truth (Scriptural basis), that's not Christianity. Rather, it is a distortion of Christianity, and therefore not the Truth.
I'm sure you teach your child how to cross a street. You don't wait for him/her to find it out on their own. It will be up to them someday to cross without you and hopefully they will use what you have taught them.
A Christian is no different. We are teaching our children how to have an everlasting life. We don't want our children to be separated from Christ forever, with no hope of redemption. What parent, with those set of values would not attempt to ensure their child did not have to be separated from a life everlasting in happiness?
Bump y'alls "finding out on their own"! I'll raise mine up in the way they should go, they can decide on their own if they WILL go, and I will believe in the Scriptural promise that they will return back if they decide to go another way.  | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/22/2007 2:33:17 AM | The hypocrisy is mind-boggling.
Indoctrinate your child with Christian philosophy (e.g. epistemology)? Bad. Indoctrinate your child with atheistic philosophy? Good.
Blows my mind. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/22/2007 7:06:33 AM | I once WAS that 14 year old girl Sassy mentions in her post (#62) and my heart goes out to her and to all the other ones just like her. The only difference between her and me, is that I never attempted suicide (per se). But I started running away from home at the age of 14, went from a straight A student to dropping out of school halfway through grade 10, with me finally leaving home for good by marrying at the age of 16. And no, I wasn't pregnant, but I just had to get out of there, and at the time, I could see no other way out. I just HAD to get out of there. Even today, almost 40 years later, just approaching my small hometown when I go visit my parents throws me into a panic....it's like I'm suffocating and I can't breathe. But people will think I'm just crazy or maladjusted, and that's fine. I'm way past defending myself anymore. I've dealt with my past a long time ago, and I'm not crazy I can assure you. Depressed perhaps, but not crazy. I realize that my situation is unique and that not every child will be indoctrinated the way I was, which was cult-like in my case. But the damage was done regardless, and even though I spent years being "deprogrammed" and I'm FINE, I can never regain my youth and all those years I spent agonizing about being an outcast and a "sinner". But I can guarantee that just like "they" did for me, "they" will try to blame that poor girl's angst on her being a "rebellious" teenager and the fact that there MUST be something "wrong" with her....works every time :(
Just my opinion.
ps: Sassy, do give that young girl a hug from me and please tell her that she is NOT alone:) 
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/22/2007 7:32:55 AM | sassy
Msg: 62
Eventually she was kicked out and told to live with an aunt who is also a JW, still forced to fall inline, but now in a completely different city and without the comfort of her friends... which at 14 is a HUGE deal.. and cut adrift from all that she has come to know..
I have witnessed the oppression here in the form of my own nephew who had to leave home at 16... away from his JW parents (my sister and his stepfather). From there on in, away from what should have been loving attention for his physical, mental and spiritual growth, he fell in with equally oppressive extremes. I think and hope he has found peace of mind today; it would be a relief to know for certain.
I also know of a suicide, all down to JW's indoctrinations... but that's a story I can't relate here. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/22/2007 10:40:23 PM |
Ryft : The hypocrisy is mind-boggling.
Indoctrinate your child with Christian philosophy (e.g. epistemology)? Bad. Indoctrinate your child with atheistic philosophy? Good.
Blows my mind.
What is this atheistic philosophy? And what is it that you are against? Could it be critical thinking? Empowerment? Freedom to choose what religion, or none, for themselves? I'd love to see one piece of atheist doctrine that you stand against.
If you don't like seeing hypocrisy than stay away from mirrors. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/23/2007 3:14:30 AM | Posted by moto monkey
That is the whole idea behind public education and the separation of church and state. Freedom from religion being forced onto you and your children.
This statement is in error. The whole idea behind public education historically was to teach the general population to be able to read the Scriptures in order that they might know the VIRTUES of religion in public life.
Secondly; the whole idea behind "seperation of church and state" came about NOT in the Constitution but from a private letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to an aquaintance of his.
Thirdly: there is NO SUCH THING as "freedom from religion" in this country. The Constitution garauntees freedom OF religion; specifically "Congress shall make no laws establishing religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" You people who protest so loudly about religion seem to find it so very convenient to omit the second clause of the very Amendment you so often misquote and errantly think included TJ's passing benign comment. This is called the "Establisment Clause" not the "Expulsion Clause".
And finally: for the fellow who keeps harping about environment being the primary influence upon a child once he enters school: You are a smart guy. You recognize what WE have recognized for many decades now but have only recently begun to address: i.e. the public school system is the biggest anti-god center of indoctrination this nation has ever foisted upon its populace. And THIS fact is why we Christians who recognize this have begun removing our children from such centers of socialistic indocritination and are now home schooling our children en masse. So you see, WE are not the evil child abusers many of you think we are. As a point of fact: since the Bible and prayer were taken OUT of schools the crime, drugs, promiscuity and anarchy have increased in the governmental indoctrination centers you call a school several hundred fold; whihc would make you, the anit-god anti-bible people the abusers. Proof is a simple thing to produce. Where were the metal detectors in the schools before you unbelievers took the bibles and prayer out of the schools? Where were the drug sniffing dogs? Where were the nurseriesfor the infants of unwed mothers? Where were the armed policemen? If producing a godless society is so healthy for our kids, can you please explain to THIS father how the current school system is somehow BETTER without bibles and prayer in schools versus the schools I attended when I was young and we COULD pray and carry our bibles? Can you explain that please? I really want to know.
And once these kids commit such crimes that they are forced to be institutionalized in the government detention centers across this land THEN you give them back their bibles? How wrong headed is that? Apparently it is ok to give them a Bible AFTER the crime rather than one to help them learn why it is wrong before they do it in the first place?
And somehow WE Christians are the ones guilty of mind f***ing our kids?
(please pardon that vulgarity in my final comment; some things are best said plainly.) | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/23/2007 10:01:11 AM |
hersheyboy: Thirdly: there is NO SUCH THING as "freedom from religion" in this country. The Constitution garauntees freedom OF religion; specifically "Congress shall make no laws establishing religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" You people who protest so loudly about religion seem to find it so very convenient to omit the second clause of the very Amendment you so often misquote and errantly think included TJ's passing benign comment. This is called the "Establisment Clause" not the "Expulsion Clause".
I agree completely.
the public school system is the biggest anti-god center of indoctrination this nation has ever foisted upon its populace. And THIS fact is why we Christians who recognize this have begun removing our children from such centers of socialistic indocritination and are now home schooling our children en masse. So you see, WE are not the evil child abusers many of you think we are. As a point of fact: since the Bible and prayer were taken OUT of schools the crime, drugs, promiscuity and anarchy have increased in the governmental indoctrination centers you call a school several hundred fold; whihc would make you, the anit-god anti-bible people the abusers. Proof is a simple thing to produce. Where were the metal detectors in the schools before you unbelievers took the bibles and prayer out of the schools? Where were the drug sniffing dogs? Where were the nurseriesfor the infants of unwed mothers? Where were the armed policemen? If producing a godless society is so healthy for our kids, can you please explain to THIS father how the current school system is somehow BETTER without bibles and prayer in schools versus the schools I attended when I was young and we COULD pray and carry our bibles? Can you explain that please? I really want to know.
And this is filled with lies.
Around 90% of your "godless society" believes in at least one god.
When you were young you 'COULD pray and carry bibles', and you still can. Prayer is allowed in schools, it just isnt' forced on everyone. If you don't want your kids forced into prayer for Allah, Brahman, Cai Shen and thousands of other deities, all of which are just as relevant as the one you believe in, then any comments about having your 'god in school' is hypocritical.
The images you produced with drug sniffing dogs, armed policemen, nurseries for unwed mothers, etc are quite alarming. Why do you think that your society, comprised of over 80% christians, has the need for such precautions?
the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
Your comment about crime, drugs, promiscuity and anarchy increasing several hundredfold is laughable. Crime rates fluctuate but the trend is that they have been dropping for decades. But if you like big impressive stats I got one for ya, for every atheist in jail there's about 400 christians.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html#altformat
Apparently it is ok to give them a Bible AFTER the crime rather than one to help them learn why it is wrong before they do it in the first place?
So that's why people commit crime then - because they didn't know it was wrong in the first place? 
You don't need a bible to know wrong from right and since 80%+ of the ones committing crime read the bible it certainly doesn't prevent crime anyway - looks like it increases it though. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/23/2007 1:46:17 PM | hey there rockondon!
I hardly need lectured about my country from someone who does not live here nor is a citizen. Take care of your own socialist society and MYOB.
By the way;
Your sources are no more credible than seeking info about Christianity from an Islamic site. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/23/2007 2:07:33 PM |
This statement is in error. The whole idea behind public education historically was to teach the general population to be able to read the Scriptures in order that they might know the VIRTUES of religion in public life.
Yes, back when we believed things like a flat earth or geocentric universe. We've moved on and we no longer live in the Middle Ages.
Thirdly: there is NO SUCH THING as "freedom from religion" in this country. The Constitution garauntees freedom OF religion; specifically "Congress shall make no laws establishing religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" You people who protest so loudly about religion seem to find it so very convenient to omit the second clause of the very Amendment you so often misquote and errantly think included TJ's passing benign comment. This is called the "Establisment Clause" not the "Expulsion Clause".
There may not be freedom from religion specifically outlined, word for word, in the Constitution. However, there are numerous legal rulings and even Supreme Court decisions that illustrate the principle of freedom from religion as a legally binding fact of American law. The argument against freedom from religion tends to focus on strict, literal Constitutionalist interpretation and completely ignores the fact that in the United States law exists aside from the Constitution and based on modern interpretation of the Constitution by the Judiciary.
And finally: for the fellow who keeps harping about environment being the primary influence upon a child once he enters school: You are a smart guy. You recognize what WE have recognized for many decades now but have only recently begun to address: i.e. the public school system is the biggest anti-god center of indoctrination this nation has ever foisted upon its populace.
That was me. It may be a bit of a stretch to say that public school systems are 'anti-god', but in a way I agree with you. They are only anti-god as far as 'god' is based on Biblical literalism or any type of religious fundamentalism. This is because science, education, history, and learning of all forms flatly refutes most elements of traditional religion. Are they really against a god? Probably not. But real education typically is contrary to the myths of the Bible.
And THIS fact is why we Christians who recognize this have begun removing our children from such centers of socialistic indocritination and are now home schooling our children en masse.
Since most people are far less qualified to educate a child than teaching professionals, I think in the future we'll see the educational failure of home-schooled children. If you take your child out of school and teach him about a 6000 year old Earth and that evolution is false, for example, that child can pretty much kiss any type of advanced education goodbye. They will be at a severe disadvantage if they decide to go to a university. Thats pretty important. After all, a bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma.
As a point of fact: since the Bible and prayer were taken OUT of schools the crime, drugs, promiscuity and anarchy have increased in the governmental indoctrination centers you call a school several hundred fold; whihc would make you, the anit-god anti-bible people the abusers.
This is the fallacy of illusory correlation. Let me also point out that since the Bible and prayer were taken out of schools, the use of the horse-drawn carriage has decreased. Further, since the Bible and prayer were taken out of school the number of frontal lobotomies have also decreased. Seriously. You can find correlations between anything but it does not mean that the correlations are meaningful in any way. Crime rates, promiscuity and drug usage are unrelated to religious education in schools. You can't show any causation or a even a meaningful correlation between the two.
And actually the hayday of drug usage was when drugs were legal; opiates and cocaine were sold in practically every over-the-counter medication. The Bible was also still in heavy use in schools then. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/24/2007 5:49:30 PM |
And once these kids commit such crimes that they are forced to be institutionalized in the government detention centers across this land THEN you give them back their bibles? How wrong headed is that? Apparently it is ok to give them a Bible AFTER the crime rather than one to help them learn why it is wrong before they do it in the first place?
Honestly..the Bible tells us that a righteous nation will be exalted. I think "logically" it stands to reason that an unrighteous (wicked) nation will not. Since we have attempted to remove God, then I would say that is not considered righteous by any I AM with the authority to exalt or not exalt. Hence, in my opinion the status of our country today. The devil's fault...noooooo...mankind's. We have the power over the prinicipalities of evil...but gosh, that would mean we would have to turn from our own wickedness.
Just a reminder fellow believers--pray for these people, even as you cast your pearls before them. | |
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