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| Nothing at all to do with Child Indoctrination (Good!)
Posted: 11/27/2007 8:34:57 AM | This administrations general disregard for International Law further isolates you and reduces your influence
When speaking of law, international or otherwise, it pays to be precise and correct. The US is not bound by international law. It therefore does not apply to the dicisions of this administration or any that have precdeded it throughout history. What one might think "should be" is not often what "is". So to acur
ately disscuss a topic, it is usually desireable to address what is.
A "war" that has cost your nation billions and billions and continues to cost more than ever was forecast, and will continue to cost more than anyone can figure, has gutted your economy and created debt that your grand-children's grandchildren will being paying the interest on. Your currency is going down the toilet because the power of the US$ has faded under the crushing debt load. If every single schoolchild recited the Lord's Prayer tomorrow, it wouldn't change those harsh truths.
Please help me understand how the lord's prayer recited by any number of people would affect the economic principals to bring about changes to those harsh "truths".
You use your laughing icons and such quite a bit here don't you. Your way of paying respect to others points of view I suppose. Learn that in church? | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/27/2007 8:45:40 AM |
If you are a good person whose Christianity provides a positive example without being fanatical about it, then yes that "indoctrination" is fine as it is done without force.
But if you are overzealous with the religion, you can end up turning your kids off from religion forever. I like the saying "Easy does it" and "Let go and let God". Once kids are adults they should be allowed to make their own choices as far as religious belief goes. The best way to handle it is to let it go. Forcing views on others doesn't work very well--it oftentimes results in rebellion.
Yeah, what she said.
Good on ya doll. I have allowed my teenage mutants to observe my faith and answer their question (sometimes accusations) and let them take the lead as to if they came along. One has, the other seems not to have. They are Gods children and He will be their guidance in the faith. I stay out of the way and share when invited to
~Parents will be lead by the Holy Spirit likewise if parents will listen and follow His voice, me thinks. | |
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| Nothing at all to do with Child Indoctrination (Good!)
Posted: 11/27/2007 9:03:54 AM | I said:
<div class="quote">A "war" that has cost your nation billions and billions and continues to cost more than ever was forecast, and will continue to cost more than anyone can figure, has gutted your economy and created debt that your grand-children's grandchildren will being paying the interest on. Your currency is going down the toilet because the power of the US$ has faded under the crushing debt load. If every single schoolchild recited the Lord's Prayer tomorrow, it wouldn't change those harsh truths.
jrboogie said:
Please help me understand how the lord's prayer recited by any number of people would affect the economic principals to bring about changes to those harsh "truths".
It's wandering way off-topic, but I'l answer because you seem to need to pick over what I write. But this will be the end of the matter.
It wouldn't (my point). | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/27/2007 9:19:15 AM |
designingwoman: If you are a good person whose Christianity provides a positive example without being fanatical about it, then yes that "indoctrination" is fine as it is done without force.
Okay if its done without force? Nobody has to resort to force crush their children's will, repeatedly promoting one idea while discouraging others is all that's necessary to do that. And since fanatics are so good at legitimizing their zeal (eg. "I'm not a fanatic, I just really love God") they can follow this rule of yours too.
designingwoman: But if you are overzealous with the religion, you can end up turning your kids off from religion forever. I like the saying "Easy does it" and "Let go and let God". Once kids are adults they should be allowed to make their own choices as far as religious belief goes. The best way to handle it is to let it go. Forcing views on others doesn't work very well--it oftentimes results in rebellion.
Another saying that ties in with those is "everything in moderation."
Why can't the kids make choices while they're kids? Childhood is a great time for empowering kids to make their own choices and arming them with critical thinking skills to protect them as they go through life.
Its disconcerting that in society today that so many parents are so insecure in their beliefs that they feel such need to brainwash their kids into their own religion instead of allowing them to choose for themselves. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 11/27/2007 10:04:55 AM | When I was referring to force, I referred to both verbal and phyical force. If a parent sets an example as a Christian by living a good life, yet allows the kids to make their own spiritual choices, that's a good thing. I agree that kids should be able to make their own spiritual choices.
Of course fanatics are in denial about being fanatics. A relative was told by another that she is a religious fanatic, and she objected vehemently! It's similar to alcoholics who deny that they have a drinking problem. Religious fanaticism is a form of addiction. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 5/27/2008 8:58:43 AM | you christians do seem to believe that children are born evil and therefore need to be modified... From an evolutionary standpoint children have evolved in such a way that they and their society benefit from mutual co-operation... So being a parent is not rocket science... and thus providing a father figure up in the sky or one down on the earth who will punish them is not very good idea.... leadership by example and allowing them to sometimes learn from their own mistakes i would contend is adequate and best way for them to make the most of themselves...
"child abuse" seems like a strong term for your mistake... children have evolved to have a sporting chance of surviving most things including stupid parents. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 6/28/2008 9:20:31 PM | Count blie said
I think most of us would agree that if you cstantly tell your child that he is a bad person then this would be considered child abuse. However tell him he's a bad person because his ancestors were tricked into eating an apple by a talking snake, and suddenly it's all okay.
Countbli, this would indeed be abusive if that's what Christians typically taught as the meaning of the "Fall" in the garden of Eden. But it isn't. In general, Christianity doesn't teach that people are "bad" or "good", but that we all have a strong tendency to fail to do what we know we ought to. All of us fail to live up to our ideals sometimes. That's what "sin" is; those times when we fail to be the people we want/ought to be. The story of the Fall , among a lot other things, is metaphor explaining why humans keep making bad choices. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 6/28/2008 10:31:14 PM | Just for fun I looked up how to brainwash people on howstuffworks. So for those who want to indoctrinate someone, here's some steps you can take. Essentially it comes down to two things - break the person down, then bring them back up.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/brainwashing1.htm
1. Assault on identity.
2. You are bad. Ask them if they have ever stolen anything. Ask them if they have lusted after someone. Ask them if they have ever told a lie. When they answer, reinforce that they are a lying, thieving, adulterous sinner. Drive the point home until they feel like a piece of crap.
3. Self betrayal
4. Breaking point Get them to admit their sin (betraying themself). If they're depressed and miserable you have them in the right state of mind.
5. Leniency - I can help you This is where you tell them that adopting your belief system can save them.
6. Compulsion to confession.
7. Channeling of guilt After they confess their sins you explain to them why they are pieces of crap - its because they're sinners that haven't yet adopted your belief system. But they will...oh yes....they will.
8. Releasing of guilt. Tell them its not their fault - everyone has sin, we're born with it.
9. Progress and Harmony Here is where you stop the mental (and physical if you chose to go that route) abuse. Offer them physical and mental calm so long as they adopt your belief system. Tell them to choose between going back to their old way (and continue the torment over again) or adopt the new way (your belief system).
10. Final confession. They adopt your belief system, clinging to it like a life preserver. They are now effectively brainwashed into your religion.
From that point on they should be pretty receptive to having dogma spoon fed to them, and highly resistant to any information that disconfirms their beliefs. Fear has effectively stripped away their objectivity. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity) and The Lord of the Flies
Posted: 6/28/2008 10:57:33 PM | Original poster, if you're still tuning into the forums after a two year gap, I haven't seen Lord of the Flies on film but I've read William Goldings' book. It's a tale of a group of boys who, when removed from the restraining conventions of civilisation and stranded on a tropical island, descend into superstition and murderous savagery. I don't think Goldings' intention is to stress the importance of parental guidance, religious or otherwise.The aeroplane in which the boys crashland is escaping from a nuclear war that is taking place in the adult world, so the parents are remotely engaged in their own form of savagery.
The message of the book is more about Goldings' bleak view of human nature or Mans' essential illness as it has been described. He's saying that if you scrape away the civilised veneer, we're all savages.
As for the child indoctrination issue, I see the job of parents as guiding children into behaviour that avoids harm to themselves and helps them to form useful habits. It would be ideal if children were presented with various forms of non/ religious belief in school in an unbiased, critical and comparative way before being allowed to make their own minds up (or not), preferably on reaching the age of eighteen, but I know this idea doesn't have a snowball in hells chance of being taken seriously by the faith fraternity. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 6/29/2008 12:00:46 AM | I think even if we raised children with no religious values, moral teaching and teaching of appropriate and inappropriate social behaviours would be done by any decent parent. Concepts of guilt, blame, punishment, freedom and responsibility are a part of learning to grow as a moral being, irrespective of one's religious convictions. All cultures and societies in the world, even though their cultures and moral beliefs may differ, instill certain beliefs about morality and moral conduct in children. Children themselves also learn fairly early on in life from experience how to make choices about moral matters.
I don't have a lot of time for pop psychological theories bandied about by people like McGraw, though psychoanalysis does contain interesting and genuine insights into the human condition. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 6/29/2008 11:30:44 AM | indoctrinate >verb cause to accept a set of beliefs uncritically through repeated instruction. -ORIGIN originally in the sense 'teach or instruct': from French endoctriner, from doctrine 'doctrine'.
So which is actual abuse? To teach your child to believe in something they can't see or touch or to teach them to believe in what they can see and touch? Neither teaching can prove itself in that God exists or that we evolved from microscopic organisms. Maybe neither are abuse but actual instruction from the parent as to which the parent hopes the child will have more faith in; God or the Big Bang. Morals seem to play a lesser part now a days in raising a child. I choose religion because I found more moral influences in it then I ever did in the Big Bang theory. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 6/29/2008 2:14:22 PM |
Morals seem to play a lesser part now a days in raising a child. I choose religion because I found more moral influences in it then I ever did in the Big Bang theory. Do you believe a child should be taught math - or do you believe mathematics should be denied due to a lack of moral influences?
The big bang isn't about morals, its an explanation of the existing evidence. Whether you accept it or not shouldn't affect your morality any. We can learn morals from the bible, sure, but from many other sources as well - family, friends, society, laws, books, an innate sense of right and wrong, etc. Logical conjecture based on observable evidence isn't immoral, but telling your child something is wrong merely because you don't like it might be. We live in a beautiful world and we should never be afraid to examine it objectively.
Maybe neither are abuse but actual instruction from the parent as to which the parent hopes the child will have more faith in; God or the Big Bang. False dichotomy - why does it have to be either/or? As a parent I set my hopes aside and do my best to encourage my little girl's critical thinking skills and make her own informed decision. I would rather see her choose freely and believe differently than I do then have her mirror my beliefs merely because I said so. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 6/29/2008 4:51:05 PM | As a parent I set my hopes aside and do my best to encourage my little girl's critical thinking skills and make her own informed decision. I would rather see her choose freely and believe differently than I do then have her mirror my beliefs merely because I said so.
This attitude concurs with my vision of the ideal. In addition, I believe that no child should be exposed to the concept of sin as it is extrapolated in the Bible. The suggestion to your offspring that they are the heirs to some inherited fault in their makeup is in my view as repugnant as exposing them to pornography. I regard these ideas as something that upcoming generations can and should live without. I would like to see them expunged utterly from the human psyche. If God really exists and does genuinely wish folks to take this sh!t seriously he would then almost certainly be tempted to put in a personal appearance.. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 6/29/2008 7:01:26 PM | Just for fun? I am SO glad that you're not a religious leader. Instead of demonizing people maybe you should try to figure out why you need so badly to portray a large group of people who think differently than you. Then get some professional help. Maybe you and the limey could get a group discount. 
Oh, yeah. If your comments aren't part of the original, why did you feel they were needed? The original didn't demonize enough? That's too bad, eh? | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 6/29/2008 8:00:59 PM | I don't think people are bad in general but ideas can be. I'm not fond of the sin idea because it inculcates an unwarranted guilt that children, with their unformed concept of morality are unable to evaluate objectively. I had an early history of being sent to Sunday school with various sisters to hear beskirted clerics expound their sin laden speeches. I had scant understanding of what they were trying to impart; I only know that I didn't like it; it had nothing to do with the rest of my perceived reality, and attendance thankfully ceased as soon as I was allowed to exercise a choice.
If the guilt doctrines are introduced early in life, kids may never attain a healthy objectivity. I know it depends on the child. Some independent souls may emerge unscathed from their early encounters with religion, while others are mentally scarred for life. I'm saying, protect them until they're old enough to decide for themselves. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 7/1/2008 1:27:40 AM | In my 50 years Rockon I have observed two camps in life concerning morals. In each camp you will find theists and non-theists. But in each camp the way morals are considered can be as different as day from night.
One camp will usually not find exception to the rules. Abstinance is best. It is healthy for the mind, body and soul. The way these people live is an example of how they want their kids to become if, they so choose it and many kids do to varying degrees.
The other camp finds exceptions to the rules of life that govern what is good and not so good for the mind and body so they can enjoy the things that medical science has shown and proved, abstince is best. Social drinking...ok. Smoking occasionally, not good but not bad. Just be mindful of other's breathing space. If your going to get high, weed is the best. It's safe they will tell you who use it. Sex? As long as your not out there acting like a whore or if you are but your not putting your habit out there for all to know about, do what you want with who you want. Shacking up?  Best test drive that first! This camp in general has more problems with kids and morals then the abstaining camp because this camp is sending out so many mixed signals about what is right and what isn't concerning life. This camp has no problem of teaching don't always do as I do but always do as I tell you. I and many grew up in this camp. Many grow up in it today. Kids see their parents (or single parent) smoke, getting high, drinking, hitting the bars, having a few or many sexual partners while telling the kids don't smoke! Don't drink! Don't do drugs! You better not be having sex! But the parents usually do one or more of those habits in front of the kid.
I said....
"Maybe neither are abuse but actual instruction from the parent as to which the parent hopes the child will have more faith in; God or the Big Bang."
You called it a false dichotomy? You did not understand what I wrote. Unless you are of the belief in not teaching your child anything of either theism or evolution? If that be the case then you are unknowingly allowing the teachers your child is around in school from kindergarten to 12th to shape her mind to their own ways of thinking that does and will come out while they teach day to day. Teachers get asked personal questions by students, especially by those students that grow to admire them.
You stated....
"I would rather see her choose freely and believe differently than I do then have her mirror my beliefs merely because I said so."
That statement troubles me for it's possible implications. Very few would want a child to mirror their own beliefs. Most of us want our kids to grow to think with freedom of choice. But if I was a evolutionist, I would teach my kids about it in hopes they would be an evolutionist to. But I am a theist. Therefore I have taught them about theism and hope they hold onto that belief. As a parent I have never forced them to believe in anything. I have guided them to good thinking as they make mistakes and great choices as they have grown through childhood. Whether as an evolutionist or the theist I am, I know they have the capacity to reject ANYTHING I have taugth them as they near real adulthood where they will be on their own in the world.
I have taught them what I believe is well and good. I have helped to shape them as they grew up and are growing into adults now. But the rest of the trip will be up to them and what they will or won't believe will finally be up to them. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 7/1/2008 2:03:34 AM | I'd want to teach my children, if I had some, to be critical of the worldly media. To love honour and justice and sanctity... to value friendship. Rather than avarice...
We really have a lot to appreciate Jesus for, and children best learn that rather than cynicism and strange ideas about Constantine and the Knights Templar. Criticize criticism.
Also I would want my children to go to Heaven when they died, reuniting.
And avoid compromising our relationship, by having emotional affairs with my foes, and adversaries.
The idea the government has a say in what children believe, and that they want them to consider homosexuality as an acceptable alternative is affronting. And also the forced atheism of the Soviets. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 7/3/2008 7:08:14 PM |
there are people who believe that we are promoting a sickness and destroying the minds of our kids with guilt and fantas
Being raised in the deep south Bible Belt, I somewhat agree, however the issue is not so black and white. Church can teach children good things, such as morality and teach them patience, as in how to sit still for an hour, a valueable skill they will need when the enter school. As for whether or not it's damaging, much depends on the type of religious upbringing you're talking about and how dogmatic the teaching is. I don't recommend hellfire and brimstone churches like I was raised in. There are some religious doctrines I feel, should not be taught to children under a certain age.
I argue that God is truth,
Here again, it depends on which God and what faith. I believe there are religions and churches that if a child is raised in it, they can become seriously maladjusted and dysfunctional.
children, if left to their own devices, will become ill-equiped to handle the world as an adult. I also argue that incomplete guidance at early ages will result in confusion due to a child's sensitivity of self-image.
Agreed. But can this not be accomplished without religious indoctrination? I say yes. I've seen it done. I know atheist parents who could run rings around many Christian parents when it came to kids. It's not that cut and dry, not as black and white as you seem to think.
A scenario: Most parents discourage their children from hitting and being mean. If they do not and the child acheives emotional payoff for these actions, perhaps by taking a toy from another child as an example, a clear and permanent corelation forms
in the mind of that child; violence = payoff
(BTW, this is sustained by every psychologist I've spoken to, but I'll quote a single source that focuses on emotional payoff: Life Strategies by Dr. Phil McGraw)
Agreed, but all this can be accomplished sans religious indoctrination.
I will mold him rather than letting him mold himself.
Newsflash for you. Children are not born blank slates that you write a program and they turn out the way you program them. Wish it were that easy. If I can use my own kids as an example, my oldest daughter was raised in the Baptist faith like I was. Christian daycare, church, etc. Her mom was a diagnosed bipolar and much of that was passed on to her genetically and enviromentally (learned behavior, but mental illness is partially genetic) and regardless of what discipliary measures were used, regardless of how much Bible study, church, whatever, she still turned out with serious problems. Now her sister (same mom) is completely different with only mild religous upbringing (I no longer practice any faith, I never completely believed in the religion I was brought up in anyway). She sporadically attended church, went to public school and I pretty much let her choose her own faith. She's not sure what she really believes, but as far as morality and such, she's infinitely better than her older sister. She has no interest in drugs or sex ( she's 13 now and has seen what kind of trouble and grief this kind of behavior leads to by watching her older sister), does well in school and so far the only problem I have with her is getting her to pick up after herself.
Some aetheists may indeed raise their children in the same way, passing their own morals, but most I've seen (I could be wrong) argue that a child is independant of mind and should be free to explore all possibilities.
Today, we practice no religion, but I'm not an atheist, more of pantheist. I believe in a sort of a "creative force" moreso than a personal god and like I said, I allow my daughter to decide for herself which religion, if any at all she wants to pursue. Now this doesn't mean that I let her go off with anyone or be exposed to everything and just let what happens happen, no, we monitor where she goes, what she watches on TV, where she goes on the internet and we keep the lines of communication open so that we can talk to her about these things. If we see an influence that we feel is bad or wrong, we address it and tell her why we feel it is wrong.
But if your kid loves chocolate, I just hope he doesn't find the evil chocolate God who says it's ok to take chocolate, because by golly that's the one I would pick! lol
That's why you monitor what influences your child is exposed to, and teach your children good values. You don't need religion to do this. It isn't easy, but who said being a parent was easy?
Morals are embedded into our DNA, much the same way an animal's instinct is inborn in them. No one had to teach bees to form their perfect social environment for them. Humans are more complex and need guidance coming up, but I don't believe that they need hellfire and brimstone, ancient fantasies,unscientific beliefs on how the earth and life came about and guilt trips for just being human. They need to be taught right from wrong and they need to be taught why certain things are right and wrong. They don't need ,"It's wrong because I said so" or "It's wrong because it makes the baby Jesus cry" or "The devil will get you and take you to hell if you talk back to your parents and don't eat your vegatables."
Personally I believe that a lot religous faith is toxic and needs to be laid to rest. When church people spend 27 million dollars on a museum that teaches that the Flintstones is a documentary, it's pretty obvious to me that they've been indoctrinated with fantasy, and when sick children die because their parents pray instead of calling a doctor, religion and it's place in society needs to be reexamined. | |
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| Child Indoctrination (Christianity)
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:30:44 PM |
I believe there are religions and churches that if a child is raised in it, they can become seriously maladjusted and dysfunctional.
& then other maladjusted & dysfunctional idiots elect them... | |
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