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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 5:26:47 PM | | OK.. fixedheart... Do you have any older brothers/cousins/uncles/friends living in my neck of the woods.....LOL | |
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MizQ
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Joined: 6/26/2008
Msg: 802 | |
| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 5:40:38 PM |
To come home to a loving wife, happy and self-directed children, a clean house, thoughtfully prepared meals, and willing and eager affection both in and out of bed--as well as a prevailing attitude of gratitude that, as men, we would do whatever needed doing to protect you and your children--including laying down our lives before we'd even having had a chance to live them
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 5:44:12 PM |
OK.. fixedheart... Do you have any older brothers/cousins/uncles/friends living in my neck of the woods.....LOL
Queen of hearts... have you run out of clothes to wash or something? Ace told you what guys like me would do to you!  | |
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MizQ
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Joined: 6/26/2008
Msg: 805 | |
| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 5:44:43 PM |
MizQ, get in line, I had that sign up first!!!
Didn't you know a lady always gets to go first?!  | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 5:49:08 PM |
Didn't you know a lady always gets to go first?!
Miss Manners says...
&@%# that! | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 5:53:50 PM | I personally think that a gentleman should pick up the tab, and a lady should take care of the tips. That what I would do, while dating a guy. Now, later on into the relationship, providing it develops, I might take my guy out (if he deserves it) and pick up the tab. In the early stages, splitting up the cost does not sound very romantic to me anyway. It sounds rather cold and distant.
Of course, I might be wrong about it, but this is just my opinion.  | |
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MizQ
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Joined: 6/26/2008
Msg: 808 | |
| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 5:57:21 PM | Hmm, I have had dates where the first time they bought the drinks, The second time I bought the drinks. I don't see the big issues with it, truly. (perhaps they are just using me for free drinks..LOL) If I was with a man that always insisted on paying for dinner, eventually I would find a way to reciprocate.
Just because I am a woman, and he is the man, does it mean I am entitled to be "treated" every time. If we are in about the same financial situation, then that makes it even more realistic. | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 6:19:01 PM |
To come home to a loving wife, happy and self-directed children, a clean house, thoughtfully prepared meals, and willing and eager affection both in and out of bed--as well as a prevailing attitude of gratitude that, as men, we would do whatever needed doing to protect you and your children--including laying down our lives before we'd even having had a chance to live them
I don't think Ace is out of line for wanting these things... and it is the direction for many, many people now. Every listen to Dr. Laura? She has a huge following and getting bigger all the time. This is her mission in life. To help women embrace the role of being the mother and wife and make their husbands happy enough to stick around and not wander off or be miserable for the sake of the kids. Sounds like a great movement to me and I certainly hope my sons are lucky enough to have that type of marriage. | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 7:31:41 PM | I will gladly respond to this post when you tell me specifically what privileges you sacrificed. You are evading the question with gaslighting, which I find most interesting.
Actually, I think that you're question is intended to bait me out and I have answered it.
I do not recollect a previous answer, but thank you for this one. What you describe is a stay-at-home mother/wife and is not unreasonable for some couples...and yes, it still exists and is practised albeit without the condoned restrictions of previous generations. I, myself, was a seasonal SAHM when my children were preschool. I worked enough weeks in a year to collect unemployment insurance. That was how our family got by in those years. Now, as promised, I'll try to answer your question:
Brooker, why don't you tell me what the upside of the expectation that a man will "take care of you" is, why you all want to cling to it, and why you so quickly jump to "he's cheap" when, for me at least, the old ritual calls up memories of abuses like the one's Vulf so eloquently listed?
I think the expectation is "*WOULD* he take care of me?" , not WILL he take care of me. Without having my hormones, you won't understand, but for me it's a girly, sighhh, romantic gesture that makes me weak in the knees as I've said before, something Neanderthal which hasn't been erased by my liberated values.
Cheap. Well, we all come here with our own experiences. I spent 15 years with the father of my children who did not make me feel valued. He actually depleted the family coffers rather than contribute. If we ever did go out, which was rare, *I* planned it and financed it.
I compare it with my next LTR. A man who in the beginning, treated me. It was hard to accept at first because I was so unused to it. He even used to open the car door for me!!! No one had ever done that before. HE MADE ME FEEL AS IF HE VALUED ME! The feeling was so unique and precious that I couldn't do enough for him. We truly had a give/give relationship.
Now today, if I ever was to go out with a man and he requested that I pay for my share of a dinner date, I would think of my ex-husband, a mean being who, with narrowed eyes, was always focused on who might be taking advantage of him. As I've said before, I will pick up the whole tab and thank God that he showed his true colours in the beginning.
You and I are are free to date in whatever fashion we please. I am the farthest thing from a gold-digger you can imagine, but with experience I will always choose generosity over a man with a calculator in hand. It speaks volumes about his character.
And PS - my cheap husband WAS abusive and still is from what I've heard through the grapevine. | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 8:35:58 PM |
I might take my guy out (if he deserves it) and pick up the tab.
So he has to earn it but you're entitled to it from the start?
You and I are are free to date in whatever fashion we please. I am the farthest thing from a gold-digger you can imagine, but with experience I will always choose generosity over a man with a calculator in hand. I
Stop lying to yourself. Since when are generosity/cheapness a male characteristic? Relationships are based on equal give and take. Of course you'll pick the guy who'll give you free meals. Is that really surprising?
and a woman doing all my housework is nice too. even if she works. because its nice and traditional and i'll take the woman who pulls the broom out rather then giving it to me and saying its your turn. | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 8:42:18 PM | ^^^^well said, lil brooker..better than I could...
To some men it seems to be about money and equality..to myself, and some women, it is about how it feels..appears to be the oft quoted mars vs venus thing...
No matter how "equal" I think I am..I can not change my biological responses...which respond to men who act in ways that make me feel "safe", "protected", "liked"...sure a guy can fake it...but, not over a period of time..still, it is worth the risk...I never again want to be in a position to feel like I am not "worth" it, or my value is monetary, or based on how "equal" I am to him...
No matter how logically my brain can ponder this "equality" means same thing...my feelings & heart just aren't there...and I trust them too, probably more...
I never imagined equality being a thing where some men made us feel somehow less because we aren't "equal" enough...or like them enough..I tend to see this as another type of oppression... to them, somehow, no matter what..we will just never be good enough... | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 8:57:48 PM |
and a woman doing all my housework is nice too. even if she works. because its nice and traditional and i'll take the woman who pulls the broom out rather then giving it to me and saying its your turn.
Miss Manners says
For a man to tell a woman that it's her turn to pay - acceptable
For a woman to tell a man that it's his turn to use the broom - unacceptable
For a woman to be traditional and clean the house (even if she works) - acceptable
For a man to be traditional and pay for a dinner - unacceptable
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 9:04:13 PM |
and a woman doing all my housework is nice too. even if she works. because its nice and traditional and i'll take the woman who pulls the broom out rather then giving it to me and saying its your turn.
You are an embarrassment to your gender. Why the eff are you on POF? Puhleeze change your profile to reflect what you post on the forums for those poor souls who don't read the forums. Again, how sad. I doubt that you've ever been loved in your whole life! | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/4/2008 9:08:16 PM |
You are an embarrassment to your gender. Why the eff are you on POF? Puhleeze change your profile to reflect what you post on the forums for those poor souls who don't read the forums. Again, how sad. I doubt that you've ever been loved in your whole life!
Miss Manners says
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/5/2008 1:24:23 AM | Hey LB,
Thank you for that. I misjudged you and I apologize. I've heard from other women whose spouses didn't pull their weight, just as mine didn't. So part of what bothers me is my own experience of women who were all for equality until it came time to get up and go get a job. Believe me, I know how you feel when someone pays ... or doesn't. It is _nice_ to feel valued in a tangible way.
The stay-at-home-wife thing is what men my age and older were promised, but it's really the understanding of our willingness to put ourselves on the line that I miss. And no, I don't think that it means a woman should put up with any nonsense from a man. What it means to me is that when a man does get out of line he is handled with as much respect as the situation allows, and also that he is regarded as respectable until he proves himself otherwise.
Once I got with the program I realized that I would much prefer women to be free to choose rather than to be forced into a subservient role. Who needs that? But my change in values still didn't take away the damage from all that stupid training. I guess that to me, and perhaps to other men, that "good little soldier" nonsense gave me the message that I was expendable. And to me, all of the MCP nonsense that came along with feminism reinforced that message. So when you add the attitude that "the man is supposed to pay, nyeh," well, it just feels like adding insult to injury. I'm sure you can understand that.
So, if I'm the only one who feels this way, so much the better for everyone else. But again, my point isn't that y'all are bad and wrong for wanting to either pay or be paid for, but to see it in a larger context and then decide if it's still something you want to do. If you see that context and still think it's fine, great! We can agree to disagree. But if you simply refuse to look at that context because you know damn well that you are right, well, that's not a shortcoming in me now is it? Isn't that what all those men did who resisted equality in the workplace?
I'd be shocked if there was anything more to say about this. I'm certainly done with it. Happy fishing y'all! | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/5/2008 4:33:00 AM | Who put miss manners in charge anyway? Isn't it time for a new leader?  | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/5/2008 6:45:07 AM | I hear you Space... and I want to pick up on this aspect of your post...
The stay-at-home-wife thing is what men my age and older were promised,
Promised, eh? I doubt you were promised it, not anymore than anyone is promised good weather or a happy life. Still, we complain about bad weather just as if it WAS a promise that someone has failed to deliver on and we resent it.
And who 'promised' it? Your parents? Because that is how they lived their life and you expected to carry on with it? Society? When the 60's and 70's of your childhood/adolescence had vast societal change splattered all over the news and our psyches? And that includes a wide, wide variety of things from JFK getting shot when you were around 5 years old all the way to civil rights movement, Kent State and bra burnings.
The point I'm trying to make here is you weren't promised this life, and arguably were "promised" something entirely different and much more turbulent ... yet unexamined, the subtle resentment of the perceived "broken promise" colours our life experiences. | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/5/2008 8:32:15 AM | [qoute]The point I'm trying to make here is you weren't promised this life, and arguably were "promised" something entirely different and much more turbulent ... yet unexamined, the subtle resentment of the perceived "broken promise" colours our life experiences.
I hear you IM. Who made those promises? All the love songs? All the stories passed down? All the dating customs? All of our elders? But with all of the the turbulence that came along, necessary as it was, the hatred directed at men for doing what they were trained to do was the last thing I expected or needed. It is one thing to say, "you're screwing up, and you need to change your ways." It's quite another to be vilified for the very nature of your being. And how much of male insensitivity and chauvanism was bred by the "good little soldier" programming we were subjected to?
It wasn't just the broken promises. It was also the damage done. And yes, it's probably high time for men who felt bereft, as I did, to just get over it and get on with it. But that isn't always such an easy thing to do in a climate where for all our talk about equality and respect for all, it is still perfectly OK to brand men as "losers" and regard us as though we were expendable.
It's that implication in our quaint custom that makes me want to rebel. | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/5/2008 8:53:55 AM |
It's quite another to be vilified for the very nature of your being. And how much of male insensitivity and chauvanism was bred by the "good little soldier" programming we were subjected to?
Uh yeah, isn't that what I've been saying in alot of posts?! The way we were brought up and the things around us influenced us and most people are NOT able to change. Most people only begin to embrace and like change once they forced into it. Try moving to a new town with no job and no place to live, you learn how to change pretty quick. I've never had a man take care of me like most of the women I know who are in a relationship or married. They have no clue how lucky they are. It's amazing what everyone takes for granted. And the man always think that it's his job to take care of his family. Why? Because he was raised that way.
I understand where the views that both sides are presenting are coming from. But THAT alone will not change things. Myself, I have changed the way I date and I do alot of things that most women don't do. But that's simply because I've faced bigger challenges than approaching a man first or having to pay my way on a date.
You all need to "think" about the way your parents acted and how you were influenced by them and the world (TV, other people etc.) around you. Your experiences and the former has really molded most of us into the person we are.
Bottom line though - people like people who are generous. It's been my experience that a generous man will usually pay when the date is going well. And most women will then accept. When the date is a bomb, the majority of us each pay our way. | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/5/2008 9:19:18 AM | Wild heart, you've said it much better than I could have. Questioning the assumptions under which we were raised is the essential act of individual freedom. Until we do that, we're just acting out a part.
When a date is going well, paying really isn't an issue for me. I've been dating a very nice woman lately, who has been very puzzled by my posts here because when I'm with her I'm generous. And why not? She is also generous with me and saw value in who I am before the matter of who pays ever came up. In fact, she paid for our first date to help me celebrate an important milestone at work! (I have more than made up for it since, in case any of you are grumbling "cheapskate" as seems to be the wont of some.)
So, instead of beating y'all up about it, as I have been doing, let me just invite you to raise the question in your own minds. Does the traditional custom of having the man invite (and therefore pay) make us more free, more proud, more equal? Or are we trading off something very important for a momentary sense of comfort.
If you'll think about that, then I promise to respect whatever conclusion you come to. | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/5/2008 10:08:18 AM |
Does the traditional custom of having the man invite (and therefore pay) make us more free, more proud, more equal? Or are we trading off something very important for a momentary sense of comfort.
Is it just me? Because I totally don't understand your point in that comment?
Being free, proud and equal just isn't something that would even occur to me in a dating venue?
BTW...if anyone had asked my opinion...I would have never agreed to an "equality" that included losing my identity as female... | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/5/2008 12:04:37 PM | Yeah, Ace, you're not describing some universal condition. Women ask men out. Some women never have a man ask them out. Whether it happens is an entirely separate question from what is courteous. Nobody owes anybody an invitation. Courtesy is not an obligation; no one enforces it. It is simply a free and civilized choice one can make. Or not.
IOW, you are not burdened with the chore of asking out, because you don't have to ask anyone out. You can, if you like, just like any woman can, just like anyone can, wait to be asked. There is nothing in the ether or in the social fabric to be changed; there is no abstraction. There is only what each individual chooses to do. This "we" stuff of yours is strictly "me" stuff.
Cheers!
Vulf  | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/5/2008 8:06:23 PM | I pay!
No questions asked.
I still can not understand why this is such an issue!
If your to damn cheap to pay for a date, why are you dating?
Don't give that equality B.S. or the worst excuse in the world "gold diggers" !
In order for there to be a gold digger there has to be something worth digging!
Tired of feeling used for meals? Then make better choices about who you take out!
I can only imagine how bad the server gets screwed when some people go out on a date!
No it's not 10% and it's only 15% if you can actually prove that you got lousy service and that it was the servers fault and not the cook! So that makes it 20%!
People want to complain about no being able to find quality women to go out with.
Try being a quality man, and that will all change!
You have just been set
straight by :
The RocK! | |
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| Dinner Date - Who Pays?
Posted: 9/6/2008 12:30:58 AM | "Aw, to hell with it, I'm just not even going out to dinner with anyone anymore. lol..."
This is why I go out by myself, for diner, looking for women alone.
Forking their salad, squeezing their lemon and entertaining themselves.
If a woman can fork, squeeze, and entertain herself; then I'm sure my wanting has grown.
Exponentially,
Ur Xoxo. | |
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