I've been dating a very nice woman lately, who has been very puzzled by my posts here because when I'm with her I'm generous. And why not?

I would have never agreed to an "equality" that included losing my identity as female...

I might take my guy out (if he deserves it) and pick up the tab. In the early stages, splitting up the cost does not sound very romantic to me anyway. It sounds rather cold and distant.

Slow dancing in the living room is romantic, shows mutual interest, and doesn't have anything to do with financial ability or expectation.

Good point. Paying does not show any romance, especially if its expected by both parties. It needs to be shown in other ways.

I would not let customs dictate what decides your identity as a female. Such as staying in the home taking care of children till your husband gets home with a fully cooked meal.

I was always taught that the one who ASKS, PAYS...

And you men who are trained dogs, stop telling us that you were 'taught' such and such. Grow up. Get a college degree. And treat women with respect. Let the ladies be partners. When you view them as frail, you diminish the tough, strong, conservative women who do their part in relationships. If you are paying the way of women you barely know, then you are desperate. It has NOTHING to do with respecting women. You are weak and are rationalizing your weakness.

People want to complain about no being able to find quality women to go out with.
Try being a quality man, and that will all change!

Yes, education in a profession will help you learn to think.

Once again, thank you from coming down from your mountain to set all of us straight!
Your ability to insult others is remarkable! Money well spent! Tax dollars well spent!

The thing that bothers me is not who pays. I would have gladly paid if I had any inkling of a man feeling resentful or put out. I've actually felt they "wanted" to do so, and to undermine this would be less gracious. Just like when a man opens a door, or pulls out a chair, I appreciate it -- not tell them I can do it myself, thank you.

But there is underlying bitterness in many who have posted that go well beyond the price of a meal... and that is something I would not want to evolve into or be a part of.

GALS: ANYONE WHO'D LIKE TO COMMENT, YOUR OPINIONS ARE APPRECIATED

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ACE OF SPACE: I just noticed your (much) earlier comments regarding my appraisal of all the anal-retentive babies out there in cyberspace who can't handle something as simple as a moment of generosity or chivalry without exposing themselves for the immature sissies they are.

For any other poor soul who bothers reading this, the typical order of commentary is:

1) The quotation ACE drew from my original article (in the quotation box)
2) ACE's response to it (in lower-case characters)
3) My response to his commentary (in caps).

My apologies in advance to anyone I bore (except Ace, who just went way over the top -- I just couldn't read his drivel and not get sucked into to reacting to it).

The original article ACE has responded to below is "mssg. 583, pg. 24."
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AceOfSpace: [Regarding Equality] Name me one time that you, personally, have ever paid for another man's meal the first time you've gone out with him. When people want to make friends with each other, they both show up as equals.

BeatlesYeahYeahYeah: I DON'T "GO OUT" WITH MEN. MAYBE YOU SHOULD OBSERVE THAT CRITICAL DIFFERENCE. BUT THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING AS FRIENDLY TO A GAL AS YOU WOULD TO ONE OF YOUR "REAL" FRIENDS. MEN WHO BEFRIEND EACH OTHER HAVE NO PROBLEM TREATING FOR THE NEXT ROUND OF DRINKS, SO YES, THERE ARE NATURAL SETTINGS FOR THAT KIND OF THING.

I DID BEFRIEND A MUSICIAN WHO PAID FOR MY ENTRY TO BEATLESFEST ONCE. I DON'T RECALL DOING THIS MYSELF, BUT IT HAPPENS.

THE MOST RECENT EXAMPLE OF THIS GENEROSITY? I RECENTLY MET UP WITH A FEMALE PLAYWRIGHT WHO I HAVE RECENTLY JOINED AS A MUSICAL WRITING PARTNER -- WHO INVITED ME TO DINNER WITH HER AND HER ROOM MATE AT A LOCAL ITALIAN RESTAURANT THE FIRST NIGHT WE MET IN PERSON (AFTER I AUDITIONED MY MUSIC). SHE PAID FOR ALL OF US (THE BILL WAS $49.00).

I ACCEPTED HER GENEROSITY WITHOUT FEELING ANY EMOTIONAL PRESSURE. WE HAVE GOTTEN ALONG VERY WELL AND THERE HAS BEEN NO CONFLICT OF INTEREST IN THE WRITING PARTNERSHIP (THE PLATONIC COMPONENT TO THE WRITING ARRANGEMENT WAS ESTABLISHED UP FRONT). SO IT CAN BE DONE AND HAS BEEN DONE. THERE ARE NICE PEOPLE OUT THERE. (ONE PIN DOWN, THE REST OF THE STRIKE TO GO.)




You don't want her friendship, you don't care what she thinks or has to say.


You have no idea what you are talking about.

OH, YES I DO. AT 50, I HAVE LONG HAD FRIENDS (INCLUDING LONG-TIME GAL PALS) IN ALL AGE GROUPS. I'VE TRAVELED CROSS COUNTRY AND GOTTEN A FLAVOR OF PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT REGIONS. I READ AND I COME FROM A WORLDLY FAMILY. I'VE ALSO BEEN A TEACHER AND SEEN BOTH SEXES IN ACTION; AND HAVE LONG HEARD FEMALE'S COMPLAINTS ABOUT MALE INSINCERITY, E.G., HOW EVEN IN HIGH SCHOOL THEY ARE RUTHLESS SEX MONGERS WITH NO COMPUNCTION ABOUT USING WOMEN AS A TOOL.

GIRLS HAVE TOLD ME ABOUT HOW GUYS LITERALLY ASK THEM FOR SEX AND AREN'T KIDDING. AND THEN THEY GET ANNOYED IF THEY GET TURNED DOWN, LIKE THEY THOUGHT THEY HAD IT COMING TO THEM OR SOMETHING.

ANY TIME I TALK TO WOMEN ON CHAT LINES OR MEET THEM, I ALWAYS GET COMPLIMENTED ON MY LISTENING SKILLS AND THE DESIRE TO LISTEN TO THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. I CAN'T THINK OF A WOMAN I'VE MET THAT HASN'T COMPLAINED ABOUT HOW RARE IT IS TO MEET A MALE THAT DOESN'T APPEAR BLATANT ABOUT HIS INTENT TO MERELY USE A GAL FOR SEX AND THEN MAKE A DECISION ABOUT WHETHER ANY MANNER OF FRIENDSHIP WILL BE PURSUED AT A LATER DATE.

IT IS YOU WHO DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

EVEN ONE OF MY GAL PALS ASKED HOW LONG SHE SHOULD WAIT TO GO TO BED SO SHE CAN SCREEN OUT THE PHONIES AND FIND OUT WHO ACTUALLY WANTS TO BE WITH HER, PERSONALLY.



You don't really want to have anymore to do with a woman than simply use her as a kitchen appliance and then drop her back in the cabinet when you're done with her for the day.


The same could be said for a woman who feel entitled to be compensated for her company.

IT COULD, BUT AS I SAID, THE PERCENTAGE OF FEMALE USERS IS MUCH LOWER THAN MALE USERS, AS BAD AS IT MIGHT BE THESE DAYS. READ A BOOK OR PICK UP "PSYCHOLOGY TODAY" OR SOMETHING, WILLYA? WHAT PLANET DO YOU LIVE ON ANYWAY?



Take a chance you stinking cowards. If it doesn't pan out then maybe you learned something about yourself in terms of what you want in a woman. Consider the new knowledge and possible growth it offers as the real repayment of your risk.


You know what? I think it take more courage to buck the old-school convention and hold out for women who want to be friends with me.

IT TAKES NO COURAGE TO BE A TIGHT WAD. IT JUST TAKES A LACK OF MANHOOD. THAT "OLD SCHOOL" CONVENTION YOU SPEAK OF HAS BEEN CREAKING FROM NEGLECT FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS. YOU THINK YOU'RE SOME KIND OF REBEL? WOWY KAZOWEE. WHY DON'T YOU TRY WRITING A FREE VERSE POEM AND SHOW US WHAT A LITERARY REBEL YOU ARE TOO. YOU'D ONLY BE 110 YEARS BEHIND THAT TREND.

I CAN'T RESPECT A MAN WHO DOESN'T HAVE THE BALLS TO TAKE A CHANCE. TAKE A CHANCE, P*SSY. PAY FOR A PLATTER OF FOOD. AND THEN COVER YOUR HEAD WITH CONSTRUCTION HELMET, BECAUSE I'M SURE THE WHOLE ROOF WILL CAVE IN ON YOU FOR HOW INCREDIBLE THE RESONANCE YOUR BOLD ACTION WILL CREATE!



Certainly, no one likes a woman who manipulates men or who takes wining and dining for granted.


No, but you seem perfectly happy to rise to the defense of a system that encourages them to do so with impunity. Why?

BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN ROMANCE. I DO BELIEVE THAT SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE VULNERABLE TO SMOKE OUT INSINCERITY. YOU ARE JUST TOO PETTY TO TAKE A SIMPLE CHANCE. GO FIGHT IN IRAQ ON THE FRONT LINES AND WATCH YOUR BEST FRIEND'S HEAD EXPLODE RIGHT NEXT TO YOU AS A BULLET FLIES THROUGH IT == THEN WE'LL TALK ABOUT TAKING REAL CHANCES WITH REAL CONSEQUENCES, OKAY JOHN WAYNE?

THE ONLY WAY YOU'LL KNOW IF A GIRL IS WOMAN IS TO GIVE HER THE CHANCE TO SHOW IT. IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE "GOLDEN RULE," WHICH IS TO TREAT PEOPLE AS YOU'D HAVE THEM TREAT YOU, SOMEONE HAS TO MAKE THE FIRST MOVE.

YOU CAN'T ENSURE PERFECT SAFETY, PERFECT EQUALITY BY FORCING BOTH TO MAKE THE SAME MOVE SIMULTANEOUSLY. AND IF PICKING UP THE TAB FOR A MEAL IS TOO BIG A DEMAND ON YOUR MANHOOD, TOO MUCH OF A GAMBLE; SO UNFAIR A SOCIOLOGICAL DISADVANTAGE THAT YOU CAN'T HANDLE IT, YOU'RE JUST PATHETIC AND NEED A THERAPIST, FELIX UNGER. (JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION.)

LIFE RARELY, IF EVER, DEMONSTRATES PERFECT SYMMETRY -- ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO PERFECT FAIRNESS. LIFE WASN'T MEANT TO BE FAIR, IT WAS JUST MEANT TO BE. DEAL WITH IT, OR BACK TRACK AND GO FIND THE PLACE YOU LOST YOUR BALLS.



And it only cultivates bitterness in women, who eventually start defining their own relationships based on what they WON'T do for a man, such as wear make up, cook or care for him in any way. All you do is make life more miserable for men who are NOT jerks and deserve a fair shake.


Well, actually, that all started with the women themselves. They weren't going to take it any more. And they were well within their rights to make those choices. Men who are not jerks and deserve a fair shake do not need to continue putting out for what amounts to no real respect in return.

DUDE, YOU'RE WEARING ME OUT. P*SSY, P*SSY, P*SSY! LITTLE BOY CAN'T GROW UP AND TAKE A CHANCE. BOO - F*CKING - HOO.

YOU MISSED MY POINT HERE, COMPLETELY. AND IT DIDN'T START WITH WOMEN THEMSELVES. IT STARTED WHEN MEN TREATED THEM LIKE CHATTLE, LIKE PROPERTY. IT STARTED WHEN WE WOULDN'T LET THEM VOTE, HAVE A JOB, GET PAID EQUALLY WHEN THEY DID GET A JOB. THEY HAVE BEEN TREATED LIKE CHILDREN AND MUSCLED INTO HELPLESSNESS UNTIL THEY FORCED THEIR FREEDOMS OUT MEN'S COLD, DEAD HANDS, OKAY?

MEN DIDN'T COME UP WITH THE E.R.A. TO BE NICE TO WOMEN AND GIVE THEM A BREAK FROM BEING CHEATED IN THE WORKPLACE. MY SISTER WORKED FOR N.A.S.A. FOR A COUPLE YEARS AND MADE ONLY 65% OF WHAT A MAN MADE DOING HER SAME JOB. THIS IS ILLEGAL ACCORDING TO E.O.E. RULES -- YOU KNOW, THE RULES THAT GET FOLLOWED ONLY WHEN PEOPLE THINK THEY'RE BEING MONITERED?

BY THE TIME WOMEN HAVE PUT UP WITH CR*P IN THE WORKPLACE AND THEN HAVE TO DEAL WITH HOW SLIMY MEN ARE IN BARS AND ELSEWHERE, THEY'RE UP TO THEIR GILLS; AND AFTER ENOUGH YEARS OF IT, THEY JUST BECOME CYNICAL AND THROW IN THE TOWEL. LIKE I SAID, I HAVE GAL PALS OF MANY AGES AND A MOTHER WHO GREW UP DURING THE DEPRESSION AND A SISTER IN A HAPPY MARRIAGE OF 20 YEARS. I KNOW HOW WOMEN THINK BECAUSE I'M ALWAYS IN CLOSE CONTACT WITH WOMEN.

YOU MIGHT BELIEVE YOU DESERVE A FAIR SHAKE FOR NOT BEING A SCHMUCK, BUT BY THE TIME A CHICK HAS GOTTEN TO YOU, SHE'S JUST FED UP ALTOGETHER. SO IT'S A LOT HARDER FOR THE "NICE" GUY. HE ALWAYS ENDS UP PAYING FOR THE CRIMES OF THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE HIM. THIS ISN'T FAIR, BUT THAT'S LIFE, PERIOD. IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE GUTS TO MOVE ON, DROP ANOTHER COIN IN THE SLOT AND PULL THE HANDLE, THEN JUST DROP OUT OF THE RACE AND GET IT OVER WITH.

JUST AS WOMEN KEEP FORGING AHEAD, HOPING THE NEXT GUY WON'T TRY TO EXPLOIT HER FOR A CHEAP THRILL, YOU (AND I, AS WELL) HAVE TO KEEP TRUDGING ON, HOPING YOU CAN FIND A GAL WHO WILL GIVE YOU A FAIR SHAKE. THE ONLY REAL EQUALITY IS HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO FIND A FAIR-MINDED PERSON WHO IS ALSO COMPATIBLE. HEY, WELCOME TO THE HUMAN RACE, BUDDY.



You want to cut your losses? Just become a better judge of character, that's all.


Well, something I can agree with. But tell me, just exactly how do you do that when your hormones are raging?

THIS IS WHERE YOU ARE AN IDIOT AND NEED TO LEARN HOW TO BECOME ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT YOU THINK, DO AND WHY. YOU NEED TO BECOME MORE ANALYTICAL AND LEARN A LITTLE SELF-CONTROL. YOU NEED TO GROW UP!

IF A WOMAN ACTUALLY MEANS ENOUGH TO YOU, YOU'LL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO MAKE THINGS WORK RIGHT (INCLUDING CONTROLLING MR. HAPPY), NO DIFFERENTLY THEN A WOMAN WILL PROTECT HER CHILD AT ALL COSTS. I HAVE NO SYMPATHY FOR ANY GUY DUMB ENOUGH TO NOT BE ASHAMED OF HIMSELF FOR EVEN THINKING HE DESERVES SOME MANNER OF CLEMENCY FOR A REMARK THAT LAME. WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU, MR. I'M-HELPLESS-BECAUSE-I'M-THE-ONLY-PERSON-ON-THE-PLANET-WITH-HORMONES?

WHAT ARE YOU, A PATHOLOGICAL SEX ADDICT OR WHAT? YOU HAVE NO EXCUSES. YOU EITHER DO THE RIGHT THING THE RIGHT WAY OR YOU'LL SUFFER FOR DOING THE WRONG THING. I'VE NEVER HAD A ONE-NIGHT STAND, NEVER CHEATED ON A GIRL, NEVER BEEN PROMISCUOUS, NEVER LIED TO A GIRL. IT HASN'T TAKEN THAT MUCH EFFORT AT ALL, AND I HAVE JUST AS HIGH A LIBIDO AS ANY OTHER BLUE-BLOODED AMERICAN MALE. I JUST REGARD A WOMAN AS A HUMAN BEING, JUST LIKE MY FAMILY AND MY FRIENDS. HOW TOUGH IS THAT? DO YOU EXPLOIT YOUR FRIENDS ON A REGULAR BASIS? HOW LONG WOULD YOU HAVE THEM IF YOU DID?

IT'S SIMPLE PRAGMATISM, SIMPLE CAUSE-AND-EFFECT. A WALL IS NOT A DOOR. BANG YOUR HEAD ON IT UNTIL YOU BLEED, BUT UNTIL YOU CHANGE YOUR DIRECTION, YOUR WALL WON'T CHANGE INTO A DOOR TO ACCOMODATE YOUR PERSONAL WEAKNESSES OR DESIRE FOR CONVENIENCE.



But either you take risks or you stay home with all your money in your pockets. No guts, no glory. There's just no guarantees, no fail-safe devices for anyone. So wise up, look at the big picture and stop prattling about kid stuff.


Putting it nicely. This is a false dichotomy. Putting it frankly, this is bullshit.

PUTTING IT "ACCURATELY," YOU SHOULD HAVE REFERRED TO IT AS A FALSE DILEMMA. I CAN COMPARE ANY TWO THINGS I LIKE (AND THAT'S ALL A DICHOTOMY IS). THAT YOU DON'T AGREE WITH THE COMPARISON DOESN'T MEAN THE COMPARISON CAN'T LOGICALLY BE MADE. BUT WHEN YOU HAVE ONLY TWO CHOICES, IT IS A DILEMMA. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THOSE TWO CHOICES ARE PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE, THEN YOU HAVE A FALSE DILEMMA OR A FALSE ANALOGY.

THE ONLY BULLSH*T HERE IS THAT YOU ARE A PETTY MAN AND ARE PERFECT FOR WAGING THE CHILDISH ARGUMENTS THAT OCCUR ON THESE THREADS BY THE MANY INTELLECTUALLY UNDERPOWERED SOLIPSISTIC SYBARITES WHO INHABIT THIS WUSSY NETHERWORLD OF CYBERSPACE.

THE ONLY BULLSH*T HERE IS THAT THIS THREAD EVEN EXISTS IN THE FIRST PLACE. WHO ACTUALLY NEEDS TO ASK THE PUBLIC SOMETHING AS DUMB AS "SHOULD I BUY A GIRL SOMETHING TO EAT?" DO YOU LIKE HER OR DON'T YOU? RETARD.



All you wussy little whiners have been griping about is how to get the most sex for the least amount of money. The fact that you expect sex in return for dinner demonstrates that a woman is a tool, not a human being. You couldn't possibly have any respect for any of these women you solicit.


The men who expect sex for dinner are fools. If that's who you're talking to then you might have a point.

WELL, DUH, WHO ELSE DO YOU THINK I'M TALKING ABOUT? THAT COVERS THE MAJORITY OF MEN -- ESPECIALLY MANY OF THE MALE DORKS ON THIS THREAD, WHO CAN'T STOP WHINING LIKE THE LITTLE B*TCHES THEY ARE. SO YES, IT'S A RELEVANT STATEMENT TO INCLUDE.



In a real relationship there is a balance that takes place, but it takes place over a course of time, not item-by-item.


Another point well taken. And, it applies to those who feel entitled to be paid for by virtue of their plumbing just as much as it does to those who feel entitled to be catered to by virtue of having paid.

The keyword here is "entitlement." It's an unbecoming attitude regardless of who displays it.

HEY, LOOK, DUDE, I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT PERFECT EQUALITY IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE IN A WORLD THAT REQUIRES SOMEONE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT ROMANCE IS WHAT IS DESIRED, NOT A F*CKING BUSINESS TRANSACTION, YOU LIFELESS ROBOT!

YOU MISSED THE POINT YOU JUST AGREED WITH! GOOD LUCK STAYING MARRIED IF YOU CAN EVER FIND SOMEONE WHO COULD PUT UP WITH YOUR SMALL-MINDED PETTINESS. BE A MAN. STEP UP TO THE PLATE. SHOW THE WORLD HOW MUCH COURAGE YOU HAVE: BUY SOMEONE A MEAL!

IF YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS A SHIFT OF RESPONSIBILITY OR WORK WITHIN A RELATIONSHIP, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT PRECEPT WOULD BE ANY DIFFERENT BEFORE MARRIAGE AS AFTER?

IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE ROLE-PLAYING GO OUT WITH A MANNIQUIN. WE HAVE OUR ROLES BASED ON SEX -- GET OVER IT, MR. EQUALITY. THERE IS NO EQUALITY, OTHER THAN LEGAL RIGHTS, JOB RIGHTS, AND GENERAL TREATMENT. MEN FERTILIZE THE OVUM, WOMEN CREATE THE CHILD. WE'RE NOT THE SAME SEX, OUR BRAINS ARE DESIGNED DIFFERENTLY AND THEREFORE THERE'S NO BIG STRETCH IN BELIEVING WE HAVE DIFFERENT ROLES AS WELL. SO MAN-UP AND JUST TAKE YOUR MEDICINE AND STOP WHINING, YOU BIG BABY!!! UGH!!!

WE AREN'T IDENTICAL. IT'S NOT A CRIME. JUST SORT IT OUT, THAT'S ALL. DEAL WITH IT. I DON'T KNOW HOW ANY CHICK COULD PUT UP WITH YOU. YOU WANT SOMEONE TO BE GENEROUS TO YOU? THEN ACCEPT THAT BOTH PEOPLE CAN'T MAKE THE FIRST MOVE SIMULTANEOUSLY. AND DUTCH TREAT DOESN'T COUNT. DUTCH TREAT MEANS EITHER YOU'RE PLATONICALLY ASSOCIATED OR YOU'RE JUST A CHEAP BAST*RD WHO JUST DOESN'T WANT TO ADMIT IT.

AND THIS DEAR ABBEY CR*P ABOUT MEN AND WOMEN ALTERNATING ON PAYING THE TAB IS JUST PLAIN GUTLESS. SCREW MISS MANNERS AND THE HORSE SHE RODE IN ON. IF I NEEDED OTHER PEOPLE TO DO MY THINKING FOR ME, I'D CONSULT MY PARENTS, NOT SOME OPINIONATED NEWS COLUMNIST. BESIDES, WHERE'S HER CREDENTIALS? DOES MISS MANNERS HAVE A PH.D. IN PSYCHOLOGY? NO. I'M JUST AS SATISFIED WITH MY OWN DAMNED OPINION.

I HEARTILY RECOMMEND YOU VIST A FEMALE THERAPIST SO SOMEONE CAN TEACH YOU SOMETHING ABOUT FEMALE THINKING AND HOW TO GET ALONG WITH WOMEN.

I WOULD ALSO RECOMMEND THAT YOU CONSULT A VERY INFORMATIONAL WEBSITE THAT OFFERS A GREAT DEAL OF LOGICAL ADVICE REGARDING HOW COUPLES CAN GET ALONG BETTER AND LEARN WHAT IT MEANS TO BE LEGITIMATE "PARTNERS." IT'S CALLED "MARRIAGEBUILDERS DOT COM." YOU MIGHT WANT TO CONSULT THE SECTION ON "INDEPENDENT BEHAVIOR." YOU HIT ME AS BEING ALONE FOR TOO LONG AND LACKING IN COOPERATIVE SKILLS.

GOOD LUCK, JACK BENNY -- YOU'RE GONNA NEED IT.