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| Black-only schools
Posted: 3/10/2008 6:33:27 PM | Brandie...
I am just thinking the idea is ridiculous. No other race, or ethnicity seems to need this type of special schooling to do well with others, or well in society.
Where are these African immigrants coming to Canada from? Parts of Africa? Jamaica? Ok...
Do a study that compares how well Jamaican kids are learning, and their aptitude in math and science to these African immigrant's living in Canada. If the Jamaican kids are blowing them away, then perhaps it is because of the lack of enough black history to make them proud and want to do well??
Are you in favor of segregation?
We are all individuals. Do you want to be looked at as an individual, or a black individual that needs special help? | |
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| Black-only schools
Posted: 3/10/2008 6:54:33 PM | Ok... I have some information to share...
I am a high school teacher and I am waiting for more information from co-workers somewhat involved in this project. (Ministry level) As soon as I have the information, I will pass it on.
I also want to "bookmark" this thread so that I can contribute and hopefully clarify some well founded concerns for and against the "black focuse" school.
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| Afro-centric (black-focused, not black only) schools
Posted: 3/10/2008 7:49:27 PM | ^^^^
Annasthasia,
The actual original topic, Afro-centric or black-focused, but certainly not black-only schools has already been clarified by numerous posters in the thread citing articles and whatnot... <img src=http://www.plentyoffish.com/smiles/icon_201.gif border=0>
However the topic keeps degenerating between a few posters about black-only schools, even though that's not the issue being proposed... 
As for DanceCard, the funny thing is, I am also against black-focused schools as I don't see them as a necessity either. Despite your "intriguing" attitudes and similes about black people (later amended to societal upstarts) and cattle, I am on your "side", though for completely different reasons - I simply don't want to give other cultures an excuse to denigrate black scholastic achievements if students start graduating from these special schools. We all know that jokes about affirmative action degrees will sprout up at the slightest implementation of such a school... 
Though it pains me to say it, the one other thing I do agree with Dancecard on is the advocation of conformity to a CERTAIN EXTENT. We all have to live in these countries and cities together, and as such, a modicum of social consciousness and awareness of how our actions affect the communities around us wouldn't hurt anyone. If all hooligans of ALL races stop acting up, schools will become better places again and hopefully this next generation of slackers will be snapped into line and become more productive members of society... | |
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| Afro-centric (black-focused, not black only) schools
Posted: 3/10/2008 9:03:49 PM | We all understand that the "black focused" school is not legally exclusive to other races..
However, in practice, why would people of other races CHOOSE to send their children to a "black focus" school, knowing that this school was created because African American kids have a tough time learning, start to commit crime, etc. Obviously the plan is not in place to better the self esteem of Asian or Caucasian kids in the "black focus" school.
And to be completely honest, in my opinion, no matter how politically incorrect this sounds to say, why should only Africans be sent to a school to give them pride?
I know some of you will say "Oh, all the history is about white people already.." But, it is much different to teach merely about the history,with the underlying theme that everyone is equal, to the opposite end that focuses on white skin color .. "You are white and special. Look what these white people did just like you." That is more or less indoctrination, that many of you would argue leads to racism and hate.
But if it was an idea to give white children pride who are struggling with grades, dropping out, etc , it would instantly be labeled hate. I suppose only black children should grow up with pride and have courses geared specifically toward black achievements?
Who is to say that a white pride school would not create brilliant kids to do amazing things? Just because white kids aren't dropping out in record numbers or gang banging at such a high level, it doesn't mean they are at their full potential either. If "ethnic centric" schools help African kids go from dropping out to graduating, who says a "European centric"school wouldn't help white kids to go from just graduating to achieving a higher level of excellence? | |
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| Afro-centric (black-focused, not black only) schools
Posted: 3/10/2008 10:00:40 PM | I simply don't want to give other cultures an excuse to denigrate black scholastic achievements if students start graduating from these special schools.
Message: and I don't either ~ you start off on the wrong foot ~ you will stay off step ~ and there is no need for it ~ no need what so ever. ~ That is it's own kind of discrimination.
This reminds me of a class example carried out years ago by a class teacher ~ perhaps you heard of it?
It was suggested that blue eyed people were smarter then brown eyed people ~ the students accepting this ~ started preforming accordingly ~ It gave the brown eyes a reason, an excuse to fail and gave blue eyes the confidence to accept leadership and achieve.
It's been years since I've allowed recall of this classroom test and can't offer more details ~ Sorry ~
But the mind is what you wish to open ~ I think the color there is "grey matter" ~
The herd , I refer to is "US" all of us . And disipline of the mind ~ like I had such a hard time getting across to my 6 yr old stepson ~ starts with controlling the legs, arms, feet and mouth and tongue . ~ those things are the starting blocks. Learn to still them first! Then the class room is a learning place and a teacher to have everyones attention and not competeing with Johnnie and his rubber face and rattling tongue.
When I suggest cutting the herd ~ It's Johnnie , I have in mind.
Why is that so difficult to get across?
Targeted education is a good thing ~ If these young people can contol their limbs and mouth for 50min. intervals ~ they are ready to be taught anything you wish to teach.
Just don't go calling it ~Afro ~ or Black ~ all these catch phrases ` that polorize
A history event ~ refer to as the Arcadian Removal ~ comes to mind at this point
does not suggest anything French ~ or subsigated
~dar | |
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| Afro-centric (black-focused, not black only) schools
Posted: 3/10/2008 11:07:12 PM |
This reminds me of a class example carried out years ago by a class teacher ~ perhaps you heard of it?
It was suggested that blue eyed people were smarter then brown eyed people ~ the students accepting this ~ started preforming accordingly ~ It gave the brown eyes a reason, an excuse to fail and gave blue eyes the confidence to accept leadership and achieve.
It's been years since I've allowed recall of this classroom test and can't offer more details ~ Sorry ~
The idea expressed in your example is exactly the kind of message that society at large sends.
The answer is to change the message but one of the qaulifications that goes with it is:
How many generations are you prepared to waste waiting for the message society sends to complete that change?
At what point do you decide that squandering the current or future generations is squandering too many and start arming the kids with the knowledge they need to truly succeed in the here and now?
I'd say that even one more is too many already. | |
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| Afro-centric (black-focused, not black only) schools
Posted: 3/10/2008 11:59:46 PM | OP~
Is there a need for segregation?
People are people. One day people will come to understand this I believe. Apparently people don't have this desire today. They feel cultural differences matter...beyond embracing different looks (since that is all it is), beyond de-segregation and beyond unity. My opinion...It's sad that people are so focused on 'differences' versus what we all have in common.
We have 'some' people voting for a man merely because of his skin color or a woman because of her gender...yet nobody claims to be prejudice or claims to discriminate. African studies are taught in colleges. I took it. I'm unclear how studying Africa will place Americans at an advantage in American society. Pride grows internally and self esteem internally. I'm unclear again 'who' lacks knowledge of who they are today some 50 years after vindication and the truth unveiled. It would only be by 'choice' -- not victory or oppression that a person feel they need to be treated special in today's society. All children are special and deserve a balanced education -- not a slanted or single area of study. Our schools are making changes to please everyone as is...but take away balance and you end up placing minority children at a 'disadvantage' versus an advantage, imo. | |
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| Black-only schools
Posted: 3/11/2008 1:23:32 AM | They abolsihed segregation many years ago, I am not sure it's healthy to bring it back, has to be looked at in depth and the motivation and results need te be analysed carefully. | |
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| Black-only schools
Posted: 3/11/2008 2:44:55 AM | ^^^^^^^^^^^^
It would be interesting to know how well black kids did in school during the segragation era .That wasn't too long ago and I dare say there were other mitigating circumstances for the lack of Einsteins of that group.
White society and western countries have kinda adopted this promotion of black rights,lifestyle etc almost to 50/50 proportions.They are 3.5 %of the UK's population but we have a lot of black footballers .Any doctor/lawyer etc on TV is always shown as a black even though its not something thats usual or common . Most of our ads have a token black in there usually as part of a black/white couple . Tony Blair had 2 blacks in his cabinet even though there are more Asian MP's .He had no Asians in his cabinet .
So all these are positive even if not reflective of normal everyday life.
The negatives are that violent black gun crime is ongoing in London as it has for decades.There have been high profile murders of a white merchant banker on his own doorstep by black youths .White lawyer killed by black youths for his phone yards from his home.Girls shot,burnt ,raped and killed by black gangs. Policewomen killed on the job by blacks .Big scale scams by black immigrants to the tune of millions.
This is a brief summary of just the last couple of years.The media never says that these are black or immigrants.The media is extremely careful with this group here but they go on trial and are sentenced and the pics are published.....then you know . So if this s effecting black pupils.......the answers are quite clear.Stop doing crime.
America has a lot of black celebs.Will Smith ,Eddie Murphy,Obama,Oprah,Condi Rice etc etc None of these are negative so whats the excuse now ?
I know Canada has the Haitian woman in some high post.There is a mayor I believe too.I believe that Toronto has a murder a week caused by blacks too .
If you consider merely blacks in a white society....I still think that black PC is pretty high of the mainstream agenda but you are totally forgetting that its not just black and white anymore .Other groups do not have the same amount of PC .They do not have the Oprahs or Will Smiths or Beyonces but they could care less.
Muslims particularly are negatively seen as "terrorists " The word muslim conjures up terror . Talk about negative media image .The Pakistni girl I work with has two degrees from the UK.Could not speak English at 8 and didn't live with her father till that age either as he was tramping the world looking for work. Still knew he was part of their lives .lol...she said she was called a Paki at her school by white kids.Had a little fight and then became friends. She's extremely popular even though she wears a headscarf . Just very normal lower working class people who took advantage of what a normal state school has to offer .
The other Pakistani guy and other Europeans were saying to me that they are totally confused by the black biased PC of western countries .
Read if you can Greg Mortonsen and Three Cups of Tea .He is American and built 23 schools for Afghan/Pakistani girls with donations .These girls walked miles to attend school where the teacher was only present 1 day per week.They still attended the other 4 days....lol They were set work which they did.....on their own.With his help.......they have teachers and nurses churned out of those schools.
It takes $1 per week for teachers and $1 per month to keep a girl in that school.
JUst shows all you need is the will and brains. | |
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| Afro-centric (black-focused, not black only) schools
Posted: 3/11/2008 5:37:16 AM |
Dancecard mentioned:
This reminds me of a class example carried out years ago by a class teacher ~ perhaps you heard of it?
It was suggested that blue eyed people were smarter then brown eyed people ~ the students accepting this ~ started preforming accordingly ~ It gave the brown eyes a reason, an excuse to fail and gave blue eyes the confidence to accept leadership and achieve.
It's been years since I've allowed recall of this classroom test and can't offer more details ~ Sorry ~
But the mind is what you wish to open ~ I think the color there is "grey matter" ~
Hey Dancecard, the experiment you're citing is an old social-psychology experiment that had a two-fold purpose:
1) To assess the impact on positive self-image and achievement
2) To assess snobbish exclusion / "racism" against the out-group
Indeed when the blue-eyed kids were fooled into thinking they were smarter than their brown-eyed classmates, they gained a confidence boost, which helped motivate them to work harder both in class and at games... However it also had a dark side, as the kids that had suddenly became the "in-group" started berating their lower-class brown-eyed classmates that were their equals not a day before!
The first part of the experiment sort of showed that absolute power corrupts absolutely...
However the second part of the experiment which you could not recall was far more interesting, as the next day the same teacher came back into class and told the blue-eyed students that she'd made a mistake, and it was in fact the brown-eyed students that were the smarter ones! 
So what happened? The blue-eyed students refused to accept it, became furious and indignant, but gradually succumbed to the message and lost confidence in themselves. But even more interesting than that, the brown-eyed students, with this new confidence boost, became as cruel to the blue-eyed students as they were to them the day before, despite knowing what it felt like to be on the losing end of the stick! 
That was the most depressing realization of the study - that even if you flip the tables and put the formerly-oppressed in charge, they may inevitably transform into an oppressor themselves...
A wonderful experiment no doubt, and just goes to show that no matter what demographic we belong to, each of us is easily-corruptible and at least somewhat susceptible to external influences... If you were to draw a parallel to strife between whites and blacks, this experiment would postulate that even if you were to flip history around and put blacks in charge back in the day, some of the same tragedies might have occurred, simply in reverse... Hence why I don't agonize over slavery nor demand reparations, there's no guarantee we would have conducted ourselves any better were we the dominant power in that era... | |
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| Afro-centric (black-focused, not black only) schools
Posted: 3/11/2008 6:55:48 AM | Thank you for your input.
Here is part of the information I gathered to hopefully clearly express my point of view.
These two links are taken from www.statsca.ca (Statistics Canada)
Go have a look... I hope the links work.
http://www12.statcan.ca/francais/census01/products/analytic/companion/age/pyramid_f.cfm (Go click on the button "Allez" the pyramid should appear and work its magic.)
http://www.statcan.ca/english/edu/clock/population.htm
Here is an exerpt:
The clock is using the annual growth rate (1.000%) measured for the year ending on June 30th, 2007. By applying this rate to the estimated Canadian population as of July 1st, 2007, Canada's population is growing by one unit every minute and 36 seconds.
1. This growth is broken down into:
One birth every one minute and 29 seconds
One death every two minutes and 14 seconds
A net migration gain of one person every 2 minutes and 29 seconds
At this rate, the population of Canada will reach 33,305,836 by July 1st, 2008.
The pyramid of ages really gives a visual demonstration showing that our country is going towards population zero.
Also, the population clock shows that we are barely replacing ourselves.
Hence, our government opens the door a little wider for people to immigrate in order to keep our population from depleting.
Also, we have an aging population... Go have a look at this link.
http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/highlight/SAC/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo=PR&Code=01&Table=1a&StartRec=1&Sort=2&B1=Age&B2=Counts
Look at the age group between 25 and 74.
There are roughly 18 000 000 people in that age group, more than half the population of our country.
We NEED children. We need to encourage the population to multiply. We are not doing that.
So, we open our doors to immigration.
Go have a look at this link... http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo47a.htm
According to the data, 43.7 % of the foreign-born population are in Toronto.
In fact, according to the data, Toronto has the highest amount of people immigrating there.
Now, (I do not mean to be racist here, just presenting the facts), what races are these foreigh-born people.
Again, go have a look at http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo24a.htm.
Here is part of the data. from 1991 to 2001.
Africa 139,770
West-Central Asia and Middle East 162,220
Eastern Asia 423,235
South-East Asia 185,665
Southern Asia 110 295,110
Oceania and other countries 15,380
Source: Statistics Canada, Census of Population.
Last modified: 2004-04-20.
Seems to me we should have Asian focused schools also if we base ourselves on the data. Just a thought.
Anyway, the point is that the people that are immigrating are not white.
I really do not want to sound racist.
We all know that the first reaction is to fear what is not familiar to us.
These people come here, (IMHO it must take a lot of courage), in the hopes of having a better life.
They have a totally different culture, often times they do not have the same customs nor the same religion. Many have known violence and corruption.
We, the Canadians, are a tolerante nation. From the information I gathered, it is hoped that the children born in Canada, will adapt and IMMERSE and blend in our society and through example, they will embrace our way of life. Often times it takes more than the first generation to achieve that...
I know, I know... What is my point... I will add later on. I have chores to do... I am still fighting with the snow monster here. | |
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| Afro-centric (black-focused, not black only) schools
Posted: 3/11/2008 7:00:23 AM | It was my hope someone could fill in the blanks my memory left out of this study ~ I knew there was more an a conclusion.
Thanks for filling in the blanks Tiger.
I am a product of the south ~of share croppers, dirt farmers ~ we picked cotton not because we wished to but because it was that or empty bellies ~ I've seen much ~first hand ~
I've seem people rise up beyond their lowly humble setting and I've seen people refuse to ~ from the neighborhood, same parents. ~ what makes these people so different?
I wish education came in a bottle ~ something to just drink ~ but we all know thats not how it works.
Some of us are is such a hurry to grow up ~ we run out of time to be educated ~ we are getting into issues of growup while still children ~ Children having children. ~There is many cause of this ~ My father was very mean to me ~ I was forced from the nest early, ~ yet not groomed as a child, just beaten if things don't go well at school. ~
So we can all have a good reason to fail ~ there are millions of good reasons to fail , making it easier to live with yourself and your lot in life ~ because I'm this color or mother dressed me funny and the other children laughed at me.
During a Syc class , I read about this young black female and how she struggled to fit in and make her day as she was bused miles from her home to an "white" school. How she carried two sets of cloths and changed them on her bus rides ~ attempting to fit and blend in. ~ To go so far as change her voice and tenor of speech.
This story would break your heart ~ she was under attack by both black and white cultures ~ the little darling was just trying to fit in and do what she was told to do.
Education is the way ~ we all agree ~ and we know how to do this
You need to find out who really wants one and the ones that don't ~ your focus should be on the ones that don't ~ and fix that! If 75% of the class happen to be of one color or another ~ so be it!
I think adknowledging this color bias as we have done it American ~ is an error ~ it validates something thats not real ~ but something that perceived ~ and accepted as status quo. ~ Look at us now! see what we have done. ~ you wish the same?
I seen no good reason for education ~ as a child ~ going to school was something we all ~ just did. ~ no choice in the matter.
I'll take my leave here ~ and best of luck to my Canadian neighbors ~ dar | |
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| Afro-centric (black-focused, not black only) schools
Posted: 3/11/2008 7:29:39 AM | TIGERWOODS
You always give a sane and valid post and today is no exception.
Slavery occured to whites not just blacks.Thats a thought now ?
Presidents and Prime Ministers have apologised for slavery-for going to Africa etc etc
We also went east-to so many parts east-too numerous to mention who really are the countries that made that word BRITISH RAJ . Singapore for one where I was born but we have never ever apologised for Rajjing over there..lol In the East and we have never been asked to by India,Pakistan,Singapore,Malaysia,HK etc etc to do so .
We left our language behind and thats the reason they came to us after WW1 and " 2 after helping us of course.So these are the people who are outperforming .They are not told anything be it yes or no.The annual tables speak for themselves .Not to forget our own Irish kids...lol
Oh.....Greg Mortenson has started some 50 odd schools according to the latest from his charity .He saw kids writing in the snow and sand as he recovered in a local village.He had been trying to climb K2 .
Since then he has devoted himself to helping them. | |
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| Afro-centric (black-focused, not black only) schools
Posted: 3/11/2008 8:09:24 PM | Ouff, what a day... I managed to reclaim my garbage bin from the snow monster...
Ok...
Now, I am continuing my post from message 361.
I have the official version and the off the record version...
Warning some here may get upset... Anyhow... here goes.
THE OFFICIAL VERSION
Let's remember, that contrary to the US, the black population came to Canada by their own free will. They immigrated here hoping for a better life.
It appears that the foreign-born population have many children. They are mostly second and sometimes third generation children and they have a Canadian nationality.
(I was unable to find proof. My friends at the ministry stated that it appears that having more than two children is common. Soooo, the immigrants are making babies.)
These children are raised by first generation and second generation parents who's culture and way of life from the former country is very prevalent. (There is nothing wrong with that, just stating a fact.)
These children go to school where they are mostly the minority. They are "sometimes" subjected to prejudism and other "racial" issues. These children often do not have the opportunity to "celebrate" their culture.
The white population take all of these factors for granted. Not many white children ever experience being a minority. Not many even know what it is like not to be able to "celebrate" their heritage. It is all taken for granted and rightly so.
After all, it is not them that chose to immigrate to an other country...
In the Toronto area a high concentration of children of different ethnecities are in our public schools. There is also oftentimes a big gap between the financial and social status of the immigrant family compared to the financial and social status of the conventional white family. (It makes sense, the family is working to re-establish themselves and are trying to have better lives.)
This situation can cause segmentation in a public school system. (ie: the dreaded gangs)
The idea of the black focused schools is to GIVE the opportunity to all the children a chance to get to know about the black culture.
So, all children will be sensibilized to each other in a "hopefully" respectful environment where "hopefully" everyone will learn to work and play well with each other.
It also gives a chance to the black children to "celebrate" their heritage and realize that they can achieve and become productive and happy adults in the long term. In other words, boost their self esteem and be in an environment where they are not constantly a minority.
I may have forgotten some points that were made, but essentially that is the official version.
THE OFF THE RECORD VERSION
There is great great concern about having a black focused school.
Even if the idea is noble or appears to be noble many see this issue from different angles.
By having this type of school, were mostly black students attend will cause the "perception" of segregation.
Also, many suspect that there was a lot of pressure from the parents of the white kids to "give the black students their own space". Sooooo in doing so, we not only create "black focused" schools but at the same time we create "white focused " schools . I mean if all the black students enroll in the new school and the white students stay where they are, voilà, we have both "black focused" and "white focused" schools at the same time.
Now, please note, not one student is obligated to enroll in that school. There is still free choice given to the parents, whatever their ethnicity... (This is what I was told but I am not sure it will stick.)
In the long run, will this "black focused" school really help the black student better adapt to the Canadian way of life?
Will the "black focused" school create an environment where they will be taught to hate the white folks? (This sounds stupid to me, but it was brought up in the discussions I had.)
Therefore, nothing will be achieved in the noble ideas stated in the ON THE OFFICIAL VERSION section.
In the business world, when you propose major investments or changes there is always the best case scenario analysis all the way down to the worst case scenarios.
BEST CASE SCENARIO
All the black students enrolled in the "black focused" school live happily everafter embracing the Canadian way of life. They will feel completely accepted and no longer feel like a minority and they will become productive skilled young adults equiped to earn a good living and have a good life.
All the white students enrolled in the "black focused" school will learn that they do not need to fear what is different from their culture or religion. Instead, they will be better educated on the lives of the immigrant families and they will develop a level of tolerance where in turn will "hopefully" create the next generation with less angst where immigrants are concerned. They will also live happily everafter.
WORST CASE SCENARIO
(I admit to having laughed at this one. It was brought up... I swear.)
Only whites enroll in the "black focused" school to learn about the black culture.
All the black students stay where they are. Hence, they will become a majority in a "white focused school".
Usually the outcome will be somewhere in the middle. Like anything else, there will be some positive outcomes and some negative outcomes.
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Not that it matters here, but after having done my reasearch I need time to think about my own opinion on this issue.
All I have realized is if all the nation started to make babies and have 3 or more children per family, we would not need to open our doors so wide towards immigration. I am just stating the obvious here. No need to flame me.
The whole issue really is that we NEED TO MAKE BABIES to keep growing as a nation.
Hoping off the soap box and going to bed.
PS: I am French so please forgive me if I made some grammatical mistakes... | |
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| Afro-centric (black-focused, not black only) schools
Posted: 3/11/2008 8:52:04 PM |
I have the official version and the off the record version...
Warning some here may get upset... Anyhow... here goes.
Nothing really new in that but thanks for the effort.
All those arguments, both pro and con, have been part of the debate from the beginning.
Having just returned from Toronto and having had the opportunity to talk to collegues from D12 (that would be the Toronto secondary educators) the majority are on-board with this.
All of those points were brought up (except the one about only white kids enrolling) and the most common attitude is: We have to do something for these kids and this is the best option available. It may work, it may not but we can be certain that it will never work if we don't at least try.
What didn't come up though were the arguments that have been brought up by our neighbours to the south, no "reverse discrimination", no "coddling lazy minorities" arguments.
There are no guarantees that this will work but based on the success rates of other, similar alternative programs which have kept more at-risk kids in school and graduating than doing nothing (or worse, taking the "hard head", I mean "hard line" approach) ever did the odds are in the programs favour. | |
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| Black-focused (Afro-Centric) schools
Posted: 3/11/2008 9:00:11 PM | I don't know if this is some sort of PC thing but oddly enough , about the only person here so far who seems to be willing to speak the plain truth (without being labelled a racist because he's white ....since he's not I guess) is Tigerwoods.
Somebody explain to me what good a Polish-centered school is going to do for Canadian kids of Polish heritage ? What would we teach them that would be of use to them in Canada ? Let's see here ... I guess we'd cover the basics such as reading, writing, mathematics, and so forth. Would we teach them Polish history or Canadian history ? Seems pretty strange to me that we'd bother teaching Polish history in a Canadian classroom where it wasn't relevent to Canadian history.
Would we be teaching some sort of 'social studies' class that focused on Poland and its society ? What good is that for kids who live in Canada ? Maybe we'd teach them everything using Polish as the language to communicate the information ? Okay...can't see how that's going to help them with their English in a country where they'll need to have a firm command of the English language so that one's another bad idea.
Maybe we'll teach them Polish mythology or lore or something ? Well, I don't figure there's any harm in that but then again, I don't really understand why something like that would be offered in a high school course to begin with. Go ahead I suppose but I don't see what the point is unless it has something to do with the society we live in today. Of course, there are hundreds if not thousands of other sources of folklore from around the world that influence contemporary society. Are they going to be ignored ?
So at the end of the day what would these students in a Polish-centered school have that helps them succeed in Canadian society that they wouldn't have if they remained in the regular stream ? I suppose they'd probably have less reason to interact with other segments of Canadian society since they'd have that much less in common with other Canadian kids. And since they'd essentially be segregated we'd be helping [ <--note the qualifier] to create an insulated society within the general one.
So why does this seem like a good idea again ? Outside of being able to say "We're listening...see !?!?" the purpose of such a school seems more like a political card than any sort of actual remedy to problems faced by the Polish community. It's not clear how this is going to help them to advance later in life but sure, if you're sure it won't exascerbate any problems then go ahead I guess.
I'm not totally against the idea I just think it's a waste of time and worse, an experiment that uses kids as guinea pigs. I doubt that any kid who graduates from a black focused school is going to have any trouble reading or performing basic arithematic. Socially speaking though , this has bad, bad idea written all over it.
The less interaction groups of people have, the more room there is for misunderstanding. The greater the lack of knowledge about each other two groups of people have, the more room there is for nonsense to take its place. THAT'S what you're going to get with this. | |
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| Black-focused (Afro-Centric) schools
Posted: 3/11/2008 9:47:44 PM | The less interaction groups of people have, the more room there is for misunderstanding. The greater the lack of knowledge about each other two groups of people have, the more room there is for nonsense to take its place. THAT'S what you're going to get with this.
I get the impression that you are viewing this from a perspective of (one or more of the following):
That only black kids will be allowed to attend
or
That all or most black kids will be forced to attend (like enforced busing for example)
While specific admission criteria for this program haven't been fully developed yet (as far as I know) it is important to note that when specific alternative programs for at-risk kids are developed to address specific educational issues the admission criteria usually hinge on meeting the criteria the program is designed to address.
For example, I used to operate a "mini-program" for at-risk kids within a mainstream school (until it was rolled into a larger Ministry directed approach). Each of those kids received a level of assistance, counselling and tutoring that was not routinely available to other students. Inclusion was based on a prior determination of at-risk due to behavioural issues and kids could not simply ask to be included on the basis of wanting the extra attention or the opportunity to leave a regular class from time to time (which those who were in it could do under certain conditions).
As with other programs, it is unlikely that the program would be made available simply because the kid (or their parent) wants them to go at first. There would typically need to be an existing determination of 'at-risk' and a demonstrated history of failure within a mainstream program. In other words, those usually accepted are accepted because it has become obvious that they are not succeeding, and will not likely succeed, within the mainstream program. These are the kids who would get "first kick at the can" until the effectiveness (or lack thereof) was established. Other kids who are not determined to be at-risk will likely have to wait until it is determined that there are sufficient spaces available for them to attend without depriving at-risk kids of the opportunity before being accepted.
If the program proves successful then it likely will be cloned and opened up to a wider group (those who aren't at-risk but simply like the idea of the program)
Many seem to think that this is little more than a resurgence of the old "Deep South" white schools and black schools of the 50's and 60's which it is not (and will undoubtably be cut if it drifts in that direction).
Is it an experiment? Hell yeah, it's an experiment. Any significant change in curriculum or program delivery is an experiment. 'Reach Ahead' programs were an experiment when they were first established as were enriched programs for the gifted (a success), congregated classes for developmentally delayed kids rather than segregated training schools (generally a success), Whole Language teaching (mixed success/failure) and a whole host of other efforts.
The simple fact is, no change can be measured without actually trying it. All the theory in the world will not provide a measure of efficacy, only "in vivo" application will provide the information necessary to establish that. | |
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| Black-focused (Afro-Centric) schools
Posted: 3/12/2008 5:36:52 AM |
Gotapulse commented:
I don't know if this is some sort of PC thing but oddly enough , about the only person here so far who seems to be willing to speak the plain truth (without being labelled a racist because he's white ....since he's not I guess) is Tigerwoods.
Well thanks Gotapulse, I've tried my best to explain my reasoning against afro-centric schooling, as I just don't see the need. My response has been greeted with varied reactions, such as praise from some other posters (despite us having differing reasons), to outright shock/outrage from other posters (sadly, usually black) that I'm "voting against my own people".
I'm so tired of screaming in a windstorm but I'm neither pro-white nor pro-black, I AM PRO-HUMAN.  It is possible to agree with other posters against the school even if I don't care for their views towards race/history (as some posters have expressed in this thread). In an election we don't always agree/like every demographic that votes for our chosen candidate, we just care about their vote itself...
We should all be able to achieve within the same system, and the whole point of public schooling was to provide free/affordable education to all, and better yet, in a multicultural environment such that interacting with kids from other backgrounds would help our youths develop greater tolerance and a more well-rounded world view.
Instead we seem to have everyone dividing themselves into race-based cliques despite possibly having more in common with other kids, just because they're afraid of how they'll be judged by "their own"... 
At the end of the day, I guess I was just born a 'Tweener - too "white" in attitude to be black (according to some posters here), and obviously too black in appearance to be white (not that I'd want to be, I like my mocha features  ). It's kind of nice being my own race/country... | |
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| Black-focused (Afro-Centric) schools
Posted: 3/12/2008 12:40:05 PM | ^That's exactly how I feel about this whole thing. It's not a matter of race in my opinion. Well, to be more precise, the whole idea of race-based schooling has absolutely no place in our school system as far as I'm concerned. I've never bought into the idea that "division brings us together." Frankly, I think the idea is silly on the face of it.
I've got a friend staying with me right now until he can find his own apartment. As it happens, he's native. Now, one thing he's heard is that he's an "apple". Same thing as an "oreo" but for natives. I know a lot of 'apples'. I also know a lot of the people who call some other natives 'apples.' Why is he an apple ? Because he doesn't want any special treatment. He doesn't want his children growing believing that to be educated is to be 'white'. And he's a very good father too. Always pays his support (and more) and he sees his kids every week without fail. The point is that he has no trouble pointing out that it's contrary to common sense to teach children that they're different and don't fit in with the rest of the society they live in. He takes pride in his ancestry but he also knows that all the tools an education system can provide are supposed to give his children the academic basis for later advancement in life. They're not supposed to help kids feel any particular way unless being educated is a feeling. We already go out of our way to make children feel 'special' in a positive manner whether they've earned the status or not. Any spelling test administered to your average high school graduating class will confirm this.
Mungojoe,
Nope. I'm not looking at it as though I think that only black children can attend. Who else is going to though ? For that matter, Afro-centric is a misnomer to begin with since with that label coupled with the 'black-only' moniker (accurate or not) is to contend that Africa is only 'black'. Teaching black kids about Egypt ? I wonder how well that's going to help them to identify considering the people of North Africa are more properly defined as caucasian. So really, the idea is to focus on sub-Saharan African culture.
Well, again, what exactly is all this supposed to entail and more importantly, how is it going to help these kids ? This is basically the same recycled fluff that got the self-esteem movement rolling to the detriment of academic standards. Have you seen how poorly kids spell these days ? It's not just 'text' speak I'm talking about either. They can barely string together one coherent sentence half the time. And yet, for some reason the idea was to make them feel good whether they'd earned it or not. This whole idea of black-focused (or whatever it is exactly) schools is just an extension of that same idea. Make the kids feel good about something. Well, that's great. It serves no real purpose as it relates to education so why are we allowing the idea of voluntary segregation to take root here again ?
Look, there's no way we're ever going to agree on this one. Just can't see it happening. I might be persuaded to change my tune as long as a few basics are covered :
-The kids are educated properly. No relaxation of academic standards. That one should be easy since it's pretty hard to relax a policy that ,if it were pants, would be down around the ankles already.
-These children can still relate to the society they live in. Sorry, that's non-negotiable in my opinion. These kids don't live in sub-Saharan Africa, they live right here, in Canada. Whether some people like it or not, this country as we know it today was based on European ideas and principles. That's the whole reason we teach any European history at all. With that in mind, we'd be doing these children a disservice if we didn't teach them about the roots of their country (and it is THEIR country as much as anybody elses) Some day, with any luck, their contribution might end up in a history book but hopefully for all the right reasons.
-These kids don't get fed political propaganda or get their heads filled up by somebody with an agenda. In that case , this whole idea simply makes things worse. Unfortunately, this whole idea is based on the principle that the system is stacked against them. I sincerely doubt that we'll be able to insulate these kids from people with an axe to grind. In fact, I'd say that this will make it all the more likely they'll be focused on by such people.
Now, this thing is probably gonna happen. I think it's counter-productive and I'm leery of the supposed benefits. In short, I think it's a misguided effort that is only going to hurt the children it's meant to help. And the experiment doesn't end at graduation by the way. | |
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| Black-focused (Afro-Centric) schools
Posted: 3/12/2008 1:17:55 PM | I had to respond to this. There is more for the rest of it but I have limited time right now.
<div class="quote">This is basically the same recycled fluff that got the self-esteem movement rolling to the detriment of academic standards. Have you seen how poorly kids spell these days ? It's not just 'text' speak I'm talking about either. They can barely string together one coherent sentence half the time. And yet, for some reason the idea was to make them feel good whether they'd earned it or not.
That has nothing to do with the "self-esteem movement" (there are other issues in school that do but not this).
The drop in overall literacy derives from a combination of reduced emphasis on written/reading literacy in society as a whole (the majority of information presented these days is in audio/video format. The information revolution, don't you know).
Society as a whole relies far less on the written word than the spoken word and has for many years. As well, much of the written communication out there has suffered from a societal shift in the way written information is presented (moving away from very formal language requiring a high degree of literacy to more informal language. Pick up a copy of Scientific American and read the 100/50 yrs ago section. You will notice a dramatic shift in the complexity and formality of language use even in scientific literature). This has happened in order to reach a broader audience (largely media/marketing driven as the target audience age-range has expanded from adults to include children). This isn't simply a recent shift (thought the effects have become more dramatic recently), it has been occuring over the last 50-60 years (really picking up steam after the end of WWII).
Another factor was the shift to "whole language" learning. The elimination (largely) of the teaching of the mechanics of language in favour of purely meaning-based teaching has deprived many of the ability to parse words for meaning (understanding a new word by dissecting it into its morphemes; root, suffixes and prefixes in other words), being able to "guess" the spelling of a novel word by applying the rules for relating phonemes to graphemes and combining phonemes/graphemes into morpnemes and morphemes into words, and the resultant loss of contextual clues.
A similar outcome in math derived from the "philosophy" that rote learning (i.e. memorizing multiplication tables) wasn't "real" learning and that it wasn't necessary anyway given the prevalence and accessability of calculators. The outcome was that kids could no longer do math "in their heads" as well, if at all, often to the point of needing a calculator for simple 1 digit by 1 digit multiplication.
This had nothing to do with the "self-esteem movement" but was based on a philosphical disagreement over the value of rote learning over discovery (each has its place and unfortunately both have historically been approached from an either/or perspective rather than each to its own best function). | |
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| Black-focused (Afro-Centric) schools
Posted: 3/12/2008 1:39:58 PM | Mungo, you keep reiterating that it will not be an only black school, and others will be allowed to attend.
What parents in their right mind living in Canada, that are white, Asian, or Indian will say "Oh, there is this school for "at risk" black kids, and it focuses on black history. It is "afro centric". That sounds like an excellent place to send my little Johnny/Suzy.."
Secondly, the school apparently plans to teach more of a highly debatable "afro centric" history, which also would lead to hate. As you said in a previous post..
"True, but it ignores the fact that the Sahel Empires and Great Zimbabwe aren't the Ghana and Zimbabwe of today and they weren't "third world". They were great empires and Africa was doing just fine until white Europeans got their hands on it and colonized it back to the stone-age for the west's benefit. Unfortunately, not every knows (or at least is willing to admit) this."
How will that help black kids perform well in a society that in which they are 2 percent of the population? Will this help them like and trust the other 98% of people where they live?
It sounds to me like it is a school for slow learners. But if you called it this, people would notice the "slow learner" school was heavily black. So to be P.C. and beat them to the punch you call it "afro centric". If it was simply about teaching culture, then you would need "Asian centric" and "Arab centric" schools as well. But apparently for some mysterious reason they are not needed. | |
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| Black-focused (Afro-Centric) schools
Posted: 3/12/2008 3:44:48 PM |
Secondly, the school apparently plans to teach more of a highly debatable "afro centric" history, which also would lead to hate.
How is it "debatable"? How would it lead to hate? I believe you are "projecting" here. Actually it is more than just a belief if taken with the bit at the bottom as well.
What parents in their right mind living in Canada, that are white, Asian, or Indian will say "Oh, there is this school for "at risk" black kids, and it focuses on black history. It is "afro centric". That sounds like an excellent place to send my little Johnny/Suzy.."
Um.. perhaps because their child is also designated as at-risk and they see the success of the program?
You seem to be suggesting that they wouldn't send their kids simply because of the africentric approach no matter how successful the program turns out to be for at-risk kids. Sounds like more "projection" of your own beliefs onto others since the implication seems to be that anyone who doesn't see this from that perspective must not be "in their right mind".
It sounds to me like it is a school for slow learners. But if you called it this, people would notice the "slow learner" school was heavily black. So to be P.C. and beat them to the punch you call it "afro centric".
Um... no.
It is not a program for "slow learners" (why would you assume that?). We already have numerous programs for "slow learners" (both mainstream and congregated) which have no need to be focused on anything other than meeting the specific learning handicaps that "slow learners" experience.
Did you not notice how the program is being initiated by the inclusion of africentric elements into regular curricula, that a specific congregated program is not set to begin until after elements of the curriculum have been run in the regular programs to assess their effectiveness? Not something that is usually done with "slow learners" (the "slow learners" tend to stand out long before they get to high school plus effective programs are already in existence).
How would "cultural focus" help "slow learners" and why would we need to congregate black students in such a program if it was a "slow learner" issue?
If it was simply about teaching culture, then you would need "Asian centric" and "Arab centric" schools as well. But apparently for some mysterious reason they are not needed.
Ah, but you would be wrong. We already have several "focus" programs for other historically marginalized groups. We have "focus" programs for Aboriginal students (we don't use the term "indian" for them because that term refers to people from India), for LGBT students, etc.
We have specific curricula within regular programs for students whose first language is other than english and we also have Arabic, Chinese and Aboriginal language programs.
We also have "focus" programs for students needing or interested in more non-traditional education or subjects which tend to get "the short end of the stick" in regular academic schools.
We have all kinds of specific "focus" programs and none of them have led to the dire predictions you make. An africentric program is not something entirely new, it has been done for other groups of students as well, this particular one is actually "behind the crowd" in that regard as the others have been around for quite a bit. | |
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| Black-focused (Afro-Centric) schools
Posted: 3/12/2008 3:50:22 PM |
while Egypt is indeed located in Africa, I've been referring to what is socially-regarded as African by a racial/appearance standard... I'm speaking about people that look like ME - black/caramel skin, afro, etc. I'm not talking about Egyptians, who I consider a different "race"... My Egyptian ex-girlfriend and her family certainly didn't look anything like mine, yet by your definition we would all be lumped under the one African umbrella... Since we seem to be debating apples and oranges, I will leave it at that...
That just goes to show your ignorance because you base race on skin color. It has been shown thoroughly over and through that race is NOT based on skin color. Physical anthropology does not work, skin color canNOT be determined by bone structure and etc.
You fail to realize that as the MOST diverse continent on this planet Africa will not have everyone as the same color, considering that almost every phenotype is represented. The Egyptians you speak of whom you dont consider black, in Ancient Egypt these people were dark. There are VARIOUS historical sources including descriptions written by Europeans that attest to this fact. I will not list names, you can look them up yourself, although I doubt you will because you seem to not care.
Being African has nothing to do with being black, and that's what's sad with you. You are dividing Africans in ways they never divided themselves, you are dividing them based on skin color using "divide and marginalize" techniques. The whole point of having this school would be to let kids know, Africans dont all look the same and to take pride in their people. It is not unusual for me to lump them all together as Africans, continental pride is strong in Africa, from Ghana to Ethiopia, Libya to South Africa there is a strong sense of pride in being African and being whatever ethnicity you happen to be. In your eyes, we should recognize the accomplishments of the Negritos in Asia or the Dark Indians in India. We should only recognize the Dark People in Africa or the Sri Lankans or Vietnamese because they are colored like us. You fail in your assumption that all dark skinned Africans have an Afro. That's farthest from the truth, as you have now said that only African achievements from CERTAIN West African and Central African states should be counted as black.
That is wrong. And divisive...and if this is the view you have of Africa I cannot argue with you. Because your opinion is not one based in science or sound logic. But rather the same ignorance that posters have been trying to speak out against in this forum. The ignorance of being media-fed what it means to be black or African. | |
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| Afro-centric (black-focused, not black only) schools
Posted: 3/12/2008 4:30:10 PM |
The idea expressed in your example is exactly the kind of message that society at large sends.
Message: Yepper ~` you are right ~ so what the plan? ~ change society ~ one class room at a time ~ until they are society?
I think ~ thats the way it works out ~ but you need a class room full of students that has a sincere interest in the program and stays active and connected with main stream ~ don't you think .?
So you are back to ~ Who wants an Education? ~ See, you are not addressing the issue with history culture ~ But attempting to offer insight and apperication of a race or culture the~ the hopful spin-off ~ self awareness ~ and self -image. ~ and that fine! , good , great!!
I'm a liberal ~ but this core study drips of liberal thinking and give liberal a bad name. ~ and forgive me for saying so.
~ I know educators by nature are liberal bent ~ It comes with the openess of thought and consideration of all things ~ placing value on all things ~ and thats a "good thing.
Be nice to see you get where you are wanting to go ~ a higher success rate with educating ~ I can tell by your post ~ thats where your heart is at. ~ dar | |
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| Black-focused (Afro-Centric) schools
Posted: 3/12/2008 5:37:19 PM | Mungo, there seems to be a lot of playing with words.
"At risk" seems to be used a lot to define whom should attend this school. Just what is "at risk"? It seems Canada has a school system already in place. If these "at risk" kids drop out,cause trouble, etc and their parents do not care, have no control over them, etc, how will you get these kids to join and the be interested in the program? Call their parents?
If it is a school meant for everyone, as you keep reiterating, then why not call it an at risk school. What does the continent of Africa have to do with "at risk" kids of all races living in Canada in 2008? It seems by calling it "afro centric" you would deter most kids and parents who are not from Africa.
By trying to be so PC, the program(or your representation of it) contradicts itself. Black kids have special needs, but we don't want just black kids to go there.That would be segregation...So other children sacrifice learning about their own culture and history, just to give black kids kids other races to be around? How will teaching "at risk" kids of other races about black history make them learn better and keep them from being "at risk". | |
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