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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/4/2007 2:49:47 AM | Fuuny isn't it, all evidence of these massive maufacturing facilites has gone, with the explanation of 'rust' from the conspiracy theorists...............yet the mud/brick city survives!!!!!
Amazing really.
There are so many holes I could spend all day, but just for a start, if everything had been made of metal (no building is, but ok) and it had rusted away.........there would be a record in the soil of very high ferrous compunds and Iron oxides/hydroxides.
I'm sure this won't deter any argument though, the fairies probably took it all away! | |
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Hoop
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Joined: 5/1/2006
Msg: 27 | |
| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/4/2007 8:12:08 AM | I'm not saying it deffinately happened, I am saying it is an interesting read.
This is interesting, thanks for sharing JoeKeeper
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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/4/2007 10:46:54 AM | I am a great fan of the Mahabharata and the other ancient Indian texts.
I think they are every bit as meaningful and have as much or more to offer as our own Bible.
Personally, I have an open mind on this subject, as well as the Old Testament stories of Abraham and Ezekiel.
I find this sort of thing fascinating but I don't commit to the notions absolutely.
Lets just say, I think a lot of stuff went on a long time ago which isn't in the official record. | |
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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/4/2007 5:40:11 PM | Nipoleon,
Regardless of whether or not you have an open mind about this subject, the fact remains that there is absolutely no evidence for Mohenjo-Daro (Or anywhere else within the Harappan area) to have been hit by a nuclear weapon. There is, in fact, more evidence for aliens abducting ancient Japanese potters and returning them several thousand years later to Costa Rica. There is, in fact, more evidence that Anglo Saxon women carried around ritual penises on their key rings which helped to signify that they were magic users.
In terms of 'rusting away airplanes' - yes, there would be a definite red colour to this soil from the molecular residue. And that IS something we should be able to see archaeologically, not only from testing soil samples but also just by looking at it with a soil colour chart.
Just a point - we can find middens. And wells. And dug-in hearths. And POST HOLES. Just from the changing stratigraphy... why wouldn't we be able to discover the remains of an airplane? | |
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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/4/2007 7:09:29 PM |
Quote:
"Sure, an advanced civilization with widespread manufacturing infrastructure that produces all these complex artifacts leaves absolutely NO traces whatsoever. Right. Not even a nut or bolt made of CORROSION-RESISTANT ALLOYS (that means "RUST-PROOF," amigo) often necessary for performance parts or pieces of AN 8,000-FOOT RUNWAY CONCRETE FOUNDATION would survive. Riiiight.
In your fantasy world, rust explains everything, I see. More laughter from engineers who know better. "archaeology police" indeed.
Keep it coming. It's entertaining watching you trip over yourself at every turn."
Reply:
Actually you are proving my point.
Early on at the beginning I stated that those who are (so afraid of others seeing it) become
hostile and try to start a flame war so the whole thread will get deleted. I'm not falling for it this time.
You do a good job all by yourself, suggesting a 1908 Wright Brothers wooden frame plane
would be used to deliver a high tech nuclear weapon. | |
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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/4/2007 8:00:13 PM | Quote:
"Well I wouldn't be suprised if their was. It's hard to say, because we don't know what people were like back then. But if there was it probably pitted the Bourgeosies {sp?} vs the democrats LOL...or else it may have just been the Sumerians vs the ancient Chinese doing it for old times sack. LOL haha.
I honestly can' t tell you. Where did you come up with this information."
There are links in one of the other posts, but I will repost it here if you want...
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_ancient_atomic.htm#menu
Quote:
"Fuuny isn't it, all evidence of these massive maufacturing facilites has gone, with the explanation of 'rust' from the conspiracy theorists...............yet the mud/brick city survives!!!!!
Amazing really.
There are so many holes I could spend all day, but just for a start, if everything had been made of metal (no building is, but ok) and it had rusted away.........there would be a record in the soil of very high ferrous compunds and Iron oxides/hydroxides.
I'm sure this won't deter any argument though, the fairies probably took it all away!"
Reply:
Who said anything about "Conspiracy Theory" other than you?
By the way, tactics like that don't work anymore. The title means nothing embarrassing today.
Mainly because the whole world knows that the garbage running the world tell lies on a daily basis,
start wars with lies for the purpose of making a profit no matter how many people die.
So peddle your smear campaign somewhere else.
I'm not trying to convince the poster of what they probably already believe and yet don't want others
believing for some odd reason. But I will address the questions for any legitimate readers.
Actually there are places with high traces of iron oxide in the soil.
But unless one can put it back together, it's hard to tell what it was, no?
Anyway I find this much more interesting...
Excerpt:
"Bugs that eat roads and buildings. Biocatalysts that break down fuel and plastics. Devices that stealthily corrode aluminum and other metals. These are just a few of the non-lethal weapons that the US has tried to develop, or is trying to develop.
But quite how close such weapons are to reality we may never know. The US National Academy of Sciences is refusing to release dozens of reports proposing or describing their development, even though the documents are supposed to be public records."
Full Story: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2254.html
If an ancient High Tech society achieved this same materials eating microbes agenda,
It would vanish all traces of an ancient civilization, except for the cleared dirt under a runway
and buildings made of actual stone. (Pyramids, Pillars, etc..) because they would not design
microbes to eat the stones too, or the earth would become stoneless.
Perhaps they need also create something to neutralize the little buggers.
How does the old nursery rhyme go?...
"She swallowed the dog to kill the cat to kill the rat to kill the fly, perhaps she'll die"
Interesting though, that today only stone monuments remain of the ancient past,
they themselves a marvel in ancient technology, which we can barely reproduce now.
If a nuclear war was waged long ago, and such microbes unleashed as well, while people
hid in fallout shelters, and ran for the hills, the microbes could have ran wild eating
everything man made, or everything they were designed to eat, and then died off when
there was no more source of food. Leaving the few human survivors in a new stone age.
The ancient text we refer to as the Bible even suggests this.
King Solomon, said to be the richest and wisest king of his time,
(and money buys a lot of information) authored the Bible's book of Ecclesiastes
And there in he tries to tell everyone something, mainly that Genesis repeats itself.
But you wont be hearing any preachers pushing that one, ...bad for the money basket.
Here's the ancient runway in Nasca Peru, or what's left of it...
http://www.world-mysteries.com/nasca_arrow1.jpg
And Here, what could be the portrait of, ..someone with no profile photo...
http://www.cps.k12.va.us/departments/planetarium/April17nasca2.jpg
These images were obviously intended to be viewed from the sky.
Complete with runway.
Here is a documented pendent found in a tomb in the 1800s, before the Wright Brothers invented a plane.
It looks a lot like a modern delta wing aircraft to me... along with other ancient aircraft evidence...
http://www.book-of-thoth.com/article588.html
10 most out of place artifacts...
http://listverse.com/history/top-10-out-of-place-artefacts/
Again I am only offering possibilities, I am not saying it definitely happened, but I am saying
it is quite bizzare and entertaining to watch some people get all bent out of shape over this
subject matter. If it never happened, why are some getting their panties all in a bunch?
Quote:
"This is interesting, thanks for sharing JoeKeeper"
Reply:
Well you're quite welcome, Hoop
_____________________________
Quote:
"I am a great fan of the Mahabharata and the other ancient Indian texts.
I think they are every bit as meaningful and have as much or more to offer as our own Bible.
Personally, I have an open mind on this subject, as well as the Old Testament stories of Abraham and Ezekiel.
I find this sort of thing fascinating but I don't commit to the notions absolutely.
Lets just say, I think a lot of stuff went on a long time ago which isn't in the official record."
Reply:
Yeahm those ancient texts speak of many seemingly modern things, including large passanger planes.
And yes the Bible itself also speaks of fixed wing aircraft. The creatures Ezekiel saw, moved on their own
without the help of an ox pulling them, so to him, they were alive, but he describes them as being made of metal
and having wheels, and straight wongs one to the other, and making the the sound of a rushing river on take off.
The same sound of a jet. He even describes the tinted****it canopy over the pilot's heads, animal decals on
their helmets the voice of the****it radio, etc...
And as stated before, the bible speaks of Rama, and weaping for the people there being no more.
________________
Quote:
"There is, in fact, more evidence that Anglo Saxon women carried around ritual penises on their key rings which helped to signify that they were magic users. "
Reply:
er? That was actually addressed to another open minded poster, so I will let them reply.
However I do notice they are good at casting spells on penises, with or without the effigy. | |
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Hoop
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Joined: 5/1/2006
Msg: 32 | |
| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/5/2007 12:01:57 PM | Not to detract from the main topic of this thread,
but one of the artifacts mentioned, the "Ancient Greek Computer"
10 most out of place artifacts...
http://listverse.com/history/top-10-out-of-place-artefacts/
was also recently commented upon in another thread.
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/8516143datingPostpage2.aspx
It was also written up in National Geographic News last year.
100 BC?? That's pretty amazing.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061129-ancient-greece.html | |
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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/5/2007 9:00:00 PM |
Actually there are places with high traces of iron oxide in the soil.
But unless one can put it back together, it's hard to tell what it was, no?
An idiot child can identify the out line of a shape. It's not that hard. If our site director's three year old could see the lines between different colours of dirt, so could you. And once you've uncovered all the way around the edge of the discoloured feature and taken a photograph from above- a plane shape would be pretty bloody obvious.
If an ancient High Tech society achieved this same materials eating microbes agenda,
It would vanish all traces of an ancient civilization, except for the cleared dirt under a runway
and buildings made of actual stone. (Pyramids, Pillars, etc..) because they would not design
microbes to eat the stones too, or the earth would become stoneless.
Problems with this:
1) Why is there still mudbrick and ceramic at these sites? Both these materials generally contain organic matter. I can see carbonization of organic material in ceramics, but in mudbrick? Not generally heat treated to the extent that the organic material burns off. And if some microbe got in and ate all of it then the mud brick would fall apart.
2) What about the thousands of copper and bronze figurines? The steatite beads? The mortuary remains? etc, etc, etc... not just 'actual stone' was left behind.
3) Even if all that was left after the "runway" was "eaten by microbes" was "cleared dirt" - it's a surface which would STILL be packed down from the tonnes of cement on top... and having been cleared, would be a floor void of artifacts. Also very visible, especially in a part of the world where you can't spit without hitting a potsherd, or a lithic, or SOME piece of garbage thrown away a couple hundred to a couple thousand years ago...
I am saying
it is quite bizzare and entertaining to watch some people get all bent out of shape over this
subject matter. If it never happened, why are some getting their panties all in a bunch?
Because it's yahoo ideas like this shite which get my field labelled as 'pseudoscience.' It obscures what may have REALLY happened in the past, to the point where when we DO find reliable evidence of something really weird, most people of common sense but little knowledge of archaeology just roll their eyes and say, "oh boy, here we go again..." | |
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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/5/2007 9:20:21 PM | It kind of gives away the ending but there's a fictional (? woo woo) work on this theme called "The Time Before This" by Nicholas Monserrat. My folks got it in some book club deal when I was a little kid and I always really loved the cover art (which I cannot find a picture of online; it's different) of deep inside a huge cave, stalagtites ans stalagmites in rich dark purple tones.
I found a few years later it was one of those rare books where the story was as good as the artwork. | |
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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/5/2007 9:22:32 PM | Hrm..
Not to detract from the main topic of this thread, but one of the artifacts mentioned, the "Ancient Greek Computer" 10 most out of place artifacts... http://listverse.com/history/top-10-out-of-place-artefacts/ was also recently commented upon in another thread. http://forums.plentyoffish.com/8516143datingPostpage2.aspxIt was also written up in National Geographic News last year. 100 BC?? That's pretty amazing.
Very interesting list. I wish there was more than just a paragraph on each one... Serious scholarly work has been done on a lot of these works, though the article is written to play up mystique surrounding each artifact. I probably would have just snorted at the Kensington Runestone (there are a lot of Viking hoaxes in the Eastern States) apart from the fact Alice Kehoe wrote a paper on it. She's a flake, but a lovely and thorough one... if she thinks it's legitimate enough to write a paper about it, I suppose I may have to track down that article and read it before I make up my mind. :-P
Not quite sure what studying thermoluminescence (dating technique for ceramics and hearths) has to do with a stone head... | |
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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/6/2007 1:02:11 AM |
Quote:
"1) Why is there still mudbrick and ceramic at these sites? Both these materials generally contain organic matter. I can see carbonization of organic material in ceramics, but in mudbrick? Not generally heat treated to the extent that the organic material burns off. And if some microbe got in and ate all of it then the mud brick would fall apart."
Reply:
Because then there would be no survivors to repopulate a slave society
if microbes were designed to eat the basic esentials of survival.
Cement and mudbrick are not the same thing, Cement and ceramics
are not the same thing. Even if they were similar in composition
they are not the same. If a microbe is designed to eat one it does
not mean it can eat the other. you can eat some mushrooms, but can
you eat them all?
Quote:
"2) What about the thousands of copper and bronze figurines? The steatite beads? The mortuary remains? etc, etc, etc... not just 'actual stone' was left behind."
Reply:
We are talking about 12,000 years ago.
Do you know of any bronze or copper figurines 12,000 years old?
You could not piece this together? You profile says you are an
archeology student. First year?
Let's see all the typical text book stuff, as quoted from one of
your "Alexander the Great" postings...
Quote:
"590 000 years ago some premodern human deliberately laid out six different types of wood (most likely bits which had blown off trees and were gathered off the ground) and burned them to ash. It resulted in the earliest evidence of provably deliberate fire.
120 000 years ago some rather intelligent hominin worked out how to prepare a blade flake, creating the first knife. This is also the time when anatomically modern humans have been identified from.
100 000 years ago the first 'art' was arguably created; lines incised in patterns on ochre.
80 000 years ago the first beads were produced. As well as the first fishing hooks.
60 000 years ago, humans had made it to Australia and Tasmania - granted, coastlines were closer together, but you can bet your ass that they had some form of floatation technology, if not full fledged boats, to get that far."
Golly, and with the thought of having the ability to start a fire
half a million years ago, combined with the fact that 3 buildings
fell perfectly at 911, one of which was never hit with a plane and
only had small fires here and there, were the first three buildings
to collapse from fire, in history, yet you can't grasp the concept
of man making an airplane half a million years after he learned to
start a fire? Or the idea of a conspiracy to decieve the public?
Quote:
"An idiot child can identify the out line of a shape. It's not that hard. If our site director's three year old could see the lines between different colours of dirt, so could you. And once you've uncovered all the way around the edge of the discoloured feature and taken a photograph from above- a plane shape would be pretty bloody obvious"
Reply:
Yes, but an idiot child a little older than, oh say, 20, might also
realize that an airport would be close to the target area, and whatever
was not melted, was blown into a mangled tumbling ball
of wreckage with no recognizable shape at all.
There is also evidence of a global flood in the distant past, much rusty earth
turned to mud and and swirled around into the ablivion, also many miners
digging, or land developers excavating, com across discoloration and just
keep digging right throuh it, they don't know what it is, it isn't gold.
A few rare planes in remote places may have survived the initial blast.
Who's to say such things can not be found in the future? And if
they were, the Smithsonian and friends would be sure to cover it up.
Troy never existed until it was found. The world was flat until it
was round, The Wright Brothers couldn't fly, 'til they left the ground.
But the Dragons? When their "mythical" bones were found in the 1700's
The thought police simply called them "Dinosaurs" as if no relation.
Interesting though, I was in Angkor Wat recently, said to be only
800 years old by your 'conventional' "Scientists" though some think
it is much older. In any case, apparently the builders of the Angkor
temples, knew what a Dinosaur was, at the least, 800 years ago.
Angkor Wat dinosaur...
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-cambodia.htm
As for Youtube vs. Main Stream Media?
(The Mysterious Origins of Man)
"Forbidden Archeology Part 1"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=accRaF8HxNg
From there, it's easy to find the other 5 parts
each about 10 minutes and it is extremely interesting,
even for skeptics, disinfo agents, and keyring penis charm toters.
It was originally made for television.
Hosted by film star Charlton Heston.
It aired one time , and then a letter writing campaign
was launched to the station by Charlatons claiming to be
"Scientists" given degrees by fellow Fraud Freaks runing the
world, whom demanded the show never be aired again. Lawyers were
brought into the circus, and eventually the network gave in and
it was not aired again.
So in another way, it is also interesting to see what someone
else did not want (you) to see. Once again the thought police
were on patrol, demonstrating their respect for free speach.
Also on Youtube, a very good (Radio Interview) slide show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUyHrubz0vk&feature=related
The radio interview also details Arceology and cover ups.
And if you want to scream "Art Bell?" followed by laughter,
maybe I'll just throw up some Alex Jones, in another thread
and catagory? ...Would you like that?
. | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 37 | |
| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/6/2007 5:21:22 PM | | There are loads of crypto-archaeology sites, no reputable archaeologist would touch it with a barge pole. The Mahabarat, I hope I spelt it right, and the ancient Sumerian tablets both describe wars between the gods using what appear to be nuclear weapons. And there was a recent find in Egypt, yellow glass, its used in the headpiece of Tutankamen. It takes a really high temperature to form it. Archaeologists traced it to a couple of sites out in the desert which have been hit by air detonating meteors. There was quite a good documentary on it about a year ago. | |
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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/6/2007 7:06:39 PM | "Air Detonating Meteors" eh? ...ha ha ha
I bet that Docu.. was allowed to air twice.
Except there is no meteor debris there,
save a few pieces lifted from the basement
of the Smithsonian, ( or so I've been told)
Anyway, what else did that "allowed" Documentary say?
That a fragment of the meteor then made a right turn,
went through Kennedy's neck, paused for 1.2 seconds
then then continued like a honey bee, for which none
are missing? | |
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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/6/2007 8:39:37 PM |
Except there is no meteor debris there
I thought that was your standard of evidence? Nothing at all? Maybe the microbes ate the meteor?
I get the part about mercury - if I recall, it could be useful as fuel for an ion engine. Of course, there's no evidence of an ion engine and no evidence of any of the discoveries or infrastructure required to lead to an ion engine. Springs? As what - a power source? Great. Wind-up aircraft.
Give us something supportive. That means evidence which doesn't have a better, real-world [ie, things we already know to exist or work] explanation. Not "I saw it on a website selling a book by someone with no credentials". Hearsay is not evidence. You may wish to look up "Occam's Razor" or "parsimony" first. Please also look up a good list of logical fallacies and make a cursory study of them, before falling back to depend on them. Start with "ad hominem" and "non-sequitur", but give them ALL a look.
Of course, I'm still wondering why ANYone would be looking for rust? Iron and steel make great boats, but terrible aircraft. A society which could produce nuclear weapons and ion engines would have the ability to use better materials. Ceramics, aluminum, titanium...or fabric and wood. Ceramics, fabric, and wood are all excellent possibilities...but there's no evidence that these were ever tried first.
Then there's the time frame. At the time in question, sizeable chunks of the northern hemisphere were buried in ice. Along the southern edges were massive lakes, subject to massive outbursts and flooding. There is minimal evidence of civilization at this time, though there is some. Civilization likes water. At the end of glaciation, rising water levels submerged a lot of communities. There's been some pretty good evidence of farming and seafaring recovered...but nothing even close to what would be required for this scenario.
I, for one, am not fooled by "I have no opinion, I'm just offering this for your interest". The vitriolic responses when confronted with the lack of evidence and considerable flaws and fallacies in your logic does a pretty good job of showing a vested interest and lack of rationality. Give us something factual [as Hoop did] or plausible; but don't promise the moon, give us a cookie, and proclaim they're equal. | |
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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/7/2007 12:33:37 AM | No Frog, ...you get a cookie.
I can't give you what you can't see.
And yes I do have an opinion, I think it is possible.
Not saying it possitively happened, I'm saying anythng is possible.
But there are those, (including you?) whom say it is "impossible"
I'm asking why?
And remember, there were those who said the same thing about flight before the brothers Wright.
And said the same thing about the planets revolving around the sun
And said the same thing about the earth being round
The list goes on and on, all saying, "impossible! Where's your proof?"
Are you saying it is impossible Frog?
As for the tension spring in my Mercury piston idea?
Why drive a piston several times a minute, if you can drive it once every half hour?
Why drive a piston several times a minute to turn a crankshaft?
The mercury could drive a long piston which would push on a tension coil spring
compressing that spring. Then the piston would sit still and rest.
The tension spring would do all the work from there, as it returned to it's normal length
attached to gears, spinning an alternator (generator)
It would work with any piston, including a gasoline piston, fired once every 3 minutes
but why use gasoline at all if it still has a pllutant exhaust? The mercury piston would
not have an exhaust. The same mercury used each time.
Come on Frog, I'm not buying that "I'm in the little pond" act.
I know you're smarter than that.
Good point on the non-rusting alloys.
But I was dealing with a 20 year old rust and archeology expert.
And indeed some early crude models could have been made with rustable frames,
Also I assumed she was refering to all traces, airplane hangers, steel frame buildings, etc.
Until she went into, rust shapes, anyway.
Accounts of ancient flying machines around the globe
http://www.nasca.org.uk/Ancient__Aviation_/ancient__aviation_.html#Icarus
Recent peddle power flight from Greece
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE4D81031F937A15757C0A96E948260
Ancient Greek steam engine
http://www.smith.edu/hsc/museum/ancient_inventions/steamengine2.html
Yet it was supressed for many hundreds of years.
Common you act like nothing would ever be hidden from the people.
where do you think you live, Disneyland? This is a world where
banks lend money to both sides of awar, and start them for same
profitable reason. The dumber they keep you, the easier it is. | |
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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/7/2007 1:23:44 AM |
Golly, and with the thought of having the ability to start a fire
half a million years ago, combined with the fact that 3 buildings
fell perfectly at 911, one of which was never hit with a plane and
only had small fires here and there, were the first three buildings
to collapse from fire, in history, yet you can't grasp the concept
of man making an airplane half a million years after he learned to
start a fire? Or the idea of a conspiracy to decieve the public?
What you wrote is incoherent, but something about linking the discovery of fire half a million years ago to 911 conspiracy theories is amusing. It's like the kind of thing that would fit nicely into a South Park episode or SNL skit. There has to be a place for this somewhere. | |
|
Nergal
|
Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 42 | |
| |
| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/7/2007 5:04:52 PM |
Quote:
"What you wrote is incoherent, but something about linking the discovery of fire half a million years ago to 911 conspiracy theories is amusing. It's like the kind of thing that would fit nicely into a South Park episode or SNL skit. There has to be a place for this somewhere."
reply:
I'm sorry you were unable to understand it.
Perhaps someone who has progressed beyond South Park, can.
"I didnt realise I was dealing with conspiracy theory nutters ... aah well"
Reply:
Best you can do? name calling? "nah nah"
I'm not taking the bait this time big purple man.
However if any reader has any doubts about the
possiblitiy of conspiracies existing on earth...
Watch "loose Change" for free on the internet.
Like the many millions of other people who have.
. | |
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| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/7/2007 11:26:19 PM | .
Now I don't know if this is accurate.
But it makes for an interesting read, in reguards to ancient technology and suppression.
Excerpt:
Fired NASA Whistleblower to Reveal New Apollo Secrets Kept Classified by Space Agency for Over 40 Years.Dr. Ken Johnston, former Manager of the Data and Photo Control Division at NASA’s Lunar Receiving Laboratory during the manned Apollo Lunar Exploration Effort in the 1970’s, was abruptly terminated Tuesday morning, October 23rd, from NASA’s prestigious “Solar System Ambassador” (SSA) Program at JPL.
The firing was direct reprisal for Johnston’s published account in a New York Times Best Seller, “Dark Mission: the Secret History of NASA,” of how NASA ordered him, 40 years ago, to destroy key Apollo lunar images and data — rather than allow them to be preserved for academic study and public view.
Johnston will testify at an Enterprise Mission sponsored National Press Club news conference this Tuesday, October 30th (Zenger Room, 9:00 AM) , how he disobeyed these NASA orders, secretly preserving the critical Apollo images.
Johnston will then show some of the “missing” Apollo frames — which confirm the existence of long-rumored “ancient artificial ruins and technology on the Moon,” discovered by the Apollo astronauts but legally classified under the 1958 Space Act by NASA for over 40 years.
Johnston will be joined by Richard C. Hoagland, former NASA consultant and CBS News Science Science Advisor during the Apollo lunar missions. Hoagland is coauthor of “Dark Mission: The Secret History of NASA,” and head of The Enterprise Mission.
Hoagland will present an imaging analysis of Johnston’s 40-year-old rescued Apollo images, comparing them to modern versions apparently currently being “leaked” by other “whistleblowers” on official NASA websites. He will also demonstrate and analyze one of the secret technologies retrieved by the Apollo crews, relating to the artificial control of gravity.Click HERE for more information Contact: Mike Bara’s #310-701-3152"
Source:
http://www.oddamerica.com/archives/category/nasa-cover-ups
What is also interesting is that those ancient India Scripts mentioned earily in the thread starter,
..also mention flying to the moon, and even a battle faught on the moon.
Some scientist claim the moon is hollow.
You can easily google a "hollow moon theory" and find numerous sites on it.
Somewhat convincing is that it rings like a bell when struck, but curiously the
earth does too. Leading some to believe the earth is hollow, (again google search)
The moon is older than the earth, was never part of the earth, is made of a composition
which is very rare on earth, and it does not spin the way most think it does, the moon
faces the earth at all times during orbit, so as not to show it's other side, ever.
It's size and distance from the earth is a precission position to block the sun perfectly
during an eclipse.
Another thing I find fastinating, as far as hidden ancient technology goes, is that
credible scientists believe one of the moons of Mars to be artifical as well.
Excerpt:
"March 1960: The Martian moon Phobos, generally accepted as a celestial body, actually may be an artificial satellite launched long ago by an advanced Martian race, according to Dr. S. Fred Singer, special advisor to President Eisenhower on space developments. No mention was made of the other Mars moon, Deimos.
In his published opinion, Dr. Singer backed a claim first made by the Soviet astrophysicist Shklovsky. The Russian scientist's announcement that Phobos was a hollow, artificial satellite, proving the existence of a Martian civilization, set off heated arguments among astronomers. Shklovsky based his decision on a long study of Phobos' peculiar orbit, which other astronomers have noted. The Russian claim has calculations and those of earlier astronomers prove Phobos cannot possibly be an ordinary moon."
Full Story:
http://www.presidentialufo.com/eisenhow5.htm
Tesla invented Radio, but Marconi got credit until the year after Tesla's death,
this to keep Tesla poor and obscure. But when Tesla and his assistants were
the only people on earth with radio equiptment, Tesla with his directional antena,
said he picked up intelligent sounding pattern signals from the direction of Mars.
One of the early private owners of one of the early high powered private telescopes,
( in modern times anyway) Schiaparelli, said he could see water on mars, and canals. Today they try to dismiss this as a misinterpretation of the word canals, but that does
not explain away the "water" he saw. Which disapeared soon after it was reported.
Aslo on mars itself, strange things are sceen when NASA photos are enlarged,
they must be getting lazy when screening the photos for release.
They look like giant water tubes hidden in the crust of the Mars surface.
http://ebtx.com/mars/marstube.htm
Mars made it's closest pass to earth about 4 years ago bringing it 5 times
closer to earth than usual. It only does this once every 60,000 years.
The Greeks called Mars the god of war.
The Mayan were afraid of Mars and some say Venus too.
They observed both closely.
Some scientists say Venus was a moon of jupitor, and fell out of orbit.
The Bible has a verse, "They whorship the thing that fell from Jupitor"
Small world,
pun intended.
.
. | |
|
| Now come on...
Posted: 12/8/2007 1:44:52 PM | How gullible can someone be ????
Most educated people, question what they read in the newspaper... and for good reason.. I always wonder when someone believes a document from thousands of years ago.. and takes it at face value...
Now, as for a nuclear war... if a bomb was developed and expoloded.. (impossible with the technology of the time) we would be able to detect the byproducts of nuclear explosion.. most of its components have half lives of tens of thousands of years or longer (if you don't know that means, look it up).
So, the answer is no.. impossible...
Tight lines.. JEff | |
|
| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/8/2007 2:57:40 PM | I am sorry but the earliest known writing carbon date to 3500-3100 BCE.
These were nonalphabetical glyphs; pictograms, not a language or alphabet.
And this was simple iconography pressed into clay pots and nowhere near as comphrehensive as the document[s] in question.
To claim these writing are from 5000 BC is incorrect.
The date is based upon selective reading of the text.
The stated "date" is derived from the story itself by following the chronological reporting.
If this is confusing another example of such an error is the fundammentailst velief that the Earth is only about 6 000 years old due to the chronologival reporting in the Chritian Bible, most notibly from ther book of Numbers, the "begats" when counted arrive at that age, about 6 000 years ago.
Writing developed independently in at least three places - Egypt, Mesopotamia and Harappa between 3500 BCE and 3100 BCE.
The first alphabet arrives in 2 700 BCE. They were logograms and this type of writing is simply incapable of telling such a story at the stated date. Let alone some 2 000 years prior.
Finally the text in question is known to have been written in the Late Bronze Age ca. 1100 to 900 BCE and NOT "over six thousand years ago".
Placing it where Linguistics and historians and scientists indicate the story originated.
And this is just that a Story, no less or more-so than that of the Sumerian Gilgamesh or the Homerian epics or the Egyptian ethos.
Not only is it a story it is actually classaified as a "drama".
There is no scientific evidence for any Nuclear or Atomic war 12 000 years ago.
There would still be radiation and the by products, radionuclitides, of such a conlagration, and measurable radioactive isotopes that arise from such nuclear or atomic reactions.
Some of these measurable by products THAT ONLY OCCUR DURING FISSION ie a nuclear or atomic explosion last millions of years.
They are not naturally occuring and result only from fission.
Ergo ; no there was no atomic or nuclear exchange 12 0o0 or 6 000 years ago. | |
|
| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/8/2007 8:10:09 PM |
Quote:
"I am sorry but the earliest known writing carbon date to 3500-3100 BCE. These were nonalphabetical glyphs; pictograms, not a language or alphabet."
Reply:
Excerpt:
"However, subsequent radiocarbon dating on the Tartaria finds pushed
the date of the tablets (and therefore of the whole Vinca culture)
much further back, to as long ago as 5500 BC, well before the
Sumerian era [2] (although this is disputed in the light of
apparently contradictory stratigraphic evidence [3])."
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%83rt%C4%83ria_tablets
That is a little older than your date, however these are clay tablets
Which last a lot longer than parchment or paper. and we are talking
about the possibility of an ancient advanced civilzation destroyed by
nuclear war, sending the few survivors back into the stone age, for
which they would again, slowly advance starting with chicken scratch
on clay tablets. The few survivors would have to have been mountian
people or far and remote from the main stream, many of which can't
even read or write today, for that matter.
Also possible that I may be mistaken on the dates of the first
writting, confusing it with the event, itself. But the accurate
description of a nuclear war, even if it was first written only 500
years ago, would still be amazing.
Also, as for your dates...
Again, you are going by what a few at the top, tell you.
They declare what the facts are, and any scientist under them
anywhere on earth, find themselves ridculed and drummed out of work
if they argue.
One example...
Excerpt:
"Hueyatlaco, Mexico
In the 1960s, sophisticated stone tools rivaling the best work of Cro-magnon man in Europe were unearthed by Juan Armenta Camacho and Cynthia Irwin-Williams at Hueyatlaco, near Valsequillo, 75 miles southeast of Mexico City.
Stone tools of a somewhat cruder nature were found at the nearby site of El Horno. At both the Hueyatlaco and El Horno sites, the stratigraphic location of the implements does not seem to be in doubt. However, these artifacts do have a very controversial feature: a team of geologists who worked for the U.S. Geological Survey gave them ages of about 250,000 years.
The geologists involved said four different dating methods independently yielded unusually great ages for the artifacts found near Valsequillo. The dating methods used were (1) uranium series dating, (2) fission track dating, (3) tephra hydration dating, and (4) study of mineral weathering.
As might be imagined, the date of about 250,000 years obtained for Hueyatlaco by the team of geologists provoked a great deal of controversy. If accepted, it would have revolutionized not only New World anthropology but the whole picture of human origins.
Human beings capable of making the sophisticated tools found at Hueyatlaco are not thought to have come into existence until about 100,000 years ago in Africa. In attempting to get her team's conclusions published, Virginia Steen-McIntyre experienced many social pressures and obstacles.
In a note to a colleague (July 10, 1976), she stated, "I had found out through backfence gossip that Hal, Roald, and I are considered opportunists and publicity seekers in some circles, because of Hueyatlaco, and I am still smarting from the blow."
The publication of a paper by Steen-McIntyre and her colleagues on Hueyatlaco was inexplicably held up for years.
The usual procedure in scientific publishing is for an article to be submitted to several other scientists for anonymous peer review. It is not hard to imagine how an entrenched scientific orthodoxy could manipulate this process to keep unwanted information out of scientific journals.
full Story:
http://www.earlyworld.de/forbidden_archeology.htm
And from another reputable Source...
Excerpt:
"This is the story of a remarkable art piece discovered in 1959 by an
equally remarkable man at the Valsequillo Reservoir outside the city
of Puebla, about 75 miles south of Mexico City. Juan Armenta Camacho
stunned the world with his discovery of a mineralized elephant pelvis
with engravings of elephants, big cats, and other extinct animals.
The engravings had been made when the bone was still fresh, still
"green." Whoever made these engravings actually saw those animals,
and probably even ate and prayed to them. The most amazing critter of
them all was smack dab in the middle of the thing. A four-tusked
gomphothere, an ancestor of the mastodon, and extinct in the U.S. for
over a million years.
The archaeologists would not work with the geologists unless they
recanted their "ridiculous" dates. The geologists could not do this.
Every time they dated the site with different dating techniques, the
site came out as old or older than 200,000 years. And it would take a
lot more than catcalls by angry archaeologists to make the geologist
betray the scientific laws governing their evidence.
Science is not opinion, but that was all the archaeologists could muster.
And in the end, the archaeologists won by default, by absolute noncomment;
not even a whisper. And that was pretty much that.
Had it not been for a lone hold out geologist from the original
project, one of America's greatest archaeology stories would have
been lost to the fog of professional amnesia. She was able to recover
the archives of Irwin-Williams, who had passed away several years
earlier.
Letters, notes, some photos and other materials would show
that Valsequillo was pure archaeological gold. It may not have been
the earliest contender for the preClovis throne, but it was simply
the best. And my archaeological elders didn't tell us about it?
Or they felt compelled to forget about it? Only deep therapy will tell.
One thing is certain. From that point on, for the next thirty years,
First American studies were held hostage by the myth of Adam and Eve
Clovis.."
Full Story: http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/HardakerC1.php?p=1
_____________
Believe what you want.
But here are the photos of the underwater ruins near Japan
http://www.grahamhancock.com/gallery/underwater/yonaguni.htm
(Yonaguni) Compare them with the mountain ones ones in Peru.
The sea level has been at current for how many years? (pun intended)
It would be hard to bevlieve anyone was sincere if they say these are natural formations.
And only the worst of the gulible fluoride induced would say, "okay, if you say so, because you're an authority figure"
_____________
So "dates" given by the usual suspects can not be relied upon
be it the human use of tools, or writing.
Another example, when you type into google "oldest known writing"
You get a BBC web site...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/334517.stm
which dictates your dates used, ah, but what have we here?...
BBC busted for tampering with Alternative History documentary:
http://www.grahamhancock.com/horizon/bsc-press_release.htm
They're all like that. Remember, this thread is about the possibilty
of a history different than the one forced on us by media, for which
ownership of most can be traced to a small handful of corporations.
We already know what they like to tell us.
Quote:
"Finally the text in question is known to have been written in the Late Bronze Age ca. 1100 to 900 BCE and NOT "over six thousand years ago".
Reply:
Even if that were true, it still does not explain how someone
even 3000 years ago, could describe a nuclear war so acurately.
Also it seems a bit transparent, calling it "The text in question"
rather than by it's name, "The Maharbarata"
A suttle way of making it disapear?
Maybe not, after all it is tricky to spell.
Quote:
"And this is just that a Story, no less or more-so than that of the Sumerian Gilgamesh or the Homerian epics or the Egyptian ethos.
Not only is it a story it is actually classaified as a "drama".
Reply:
Again, only because those who muscil and force their way into the
key possitions of academics, screaming at the top of their lungs
at anyone who opposes them or their forced history class regulations,
as if thugs, rather than open minded teachers or scientists, yes, only
because 'they' classify ancient history, as "myth" and "drama"
But many people don't believe them any more, and just ignore them
and keep on researching. You're entitled to believe what you want.
But you can't convince me that they're not hiding something.
They've been caught covering up things, too many times.
They're a disgrace to science, history and academics.
Let's see what some intelligent minds say about the Education System...
"One of the few things a person is willing to pay for and not get."
-William Lowe Bryan
"Hanging around until you've caught on."
-Robert Frost
"One of the chief obstacles to intelligence and freedom of thought."
-Bertrand A. Russell (1872-1970) English philosopher, mathematician, and writer.
"The inculcation of the incomprehensible into the ignorant by the incompetent."
-Josiah Stamp
"[Education] consists mainly in what we have unlearned."
-Mark Twain (1835-1910) American writer
"Education is a state-controlled manufactory of echoes."
-Norman Douglas
"Education … has produced a vast population able to read but unable to distinguish what is worth reading."
-G. M. Trevelyan (1876-1962) British historian
"Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education."
-Bertrand Russell (1872-1970) English philosopher, mathematician and writer.
"Everyone who is incapable of learning has taken to teaching."
-Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Irish poet and dramatist
"It is little short of a miracle that modern methods of instruction have not already completely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry"
-Albert Einstein (1879-1955) U.S. physicist
"Real education must ultimately be limited to men who insist on knowing–the rest is mere sheep-herding."
-Ezra Loomis Pound (1885-1972) U.S. poet.
"Colleges are places where pebbles are polished and diamonds are dimmed."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, Abraham Lincoln.
"He was so learned that he could name a horse in nine languages; so ignorant that he bought a cow to ride on."
-Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) American statesman, author, scientist, inventor and philosopher.
"A fool's brain digests philosophy into folly, science into superstition, and art into pedantry. Hence University education."
-George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) British dramatist, critic, writer.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-Mark Twain (1835-1910) American writer.
"In England … education produces no effect whatsoever. If it did, it would prove a serious danger to the upper classes, and would probably lead to acts of violence in Grosvenor Square."
-Oscar Wilde (1856-1900) Irish poet and dramatist.
"Nothing in education is so astonishing as the amount of ignorance it accumulates in the form of inert facts."
-Henry Brooks Adams (1828-1918) U.S. historian and writer
"Education? is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence."
-Robert Frost
"Poor is the pupil who does not surpass his master."
-Leonardo da Vinci.
"Consider... the university professor. What is his function? Simply to pass on to fresh generations of numskulls a body of so-called knowledge that is fragmentary, unimportant, and, in large part, untrue. His whole professional activity is circumscribed by the prejudices, vanities and avarices of his university trustees, i.e., a committee of soap-boilers, nail manufacturers, bank-directors and politicians. The moment he offends these vermin he is undone. He cannot so much as think aloud without running a risk of having them fan his pantaloons."
- H. L. Mencken (1880-1956) American editor, critic and writer.
"Public schools are the nurseries of all vice and immorality."
-Henry Fielding (1707-1754) English novelist, dramatist
Geez and he wrote that in the 1700s? Still true today, send your kid to public school,
they come back with a false education a slave trade future, a mercury laced vaccine,
four letter vocabulary, a drug habit, low self esteam, and sometimes pregnant. - JoeKeeper
Quote:
"There is no scientific evidence for any Nuclear or Atomic war 12 000 years ago. There would still be radiation and the by products, radionuclitides, of such a conlagration, and measurable radioactive isotopes that arise from such nuclear or atomic reactions.
Some of these measurable by products THAT ONLY OCCUR DURING FISSION ie a nuclear or atomic explosion last millions of years.
They are not naturally occuring and result only from fission. "
Reply:
Well, you should probably read the whole thread before posting.
There are radioactive ruins in the location. And some blasts
apparently don't leave too dangerous an amount of radiation behind,
people are walking around living in Hiroshima today, and were just
a few years after the blast...
Excerpt:
"In 1958, the population of Hiroshima reached 410,000, finally exceeding what it was before the war. In 1980, Hiroshima became Japan's tenth "government ordinance designated city." At present, it is a major urban center, home to about 1.12 million. However, the people of Hiroshima have certainly not forgotten the fact that their city was once transformed to rubble by an atomic bomb. "
Source: http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/kids/KPSH_E/hiroshima_e/sadako_e/subcontents_e/17ima_1_e.html
And that last bit you said...
Quote:
"Some of these measurable by products THAT ONLY OCCUR DURING FISSION ie a nuclear or atomic explosion last millions of years.
They are not naturally occuring and result only from fission."
...proves it wasn't a meteor, ha.
Cheerio | |
|
| Now come on...
Posted: 12/8/2007 9:02:44 PM |
Quote:
"How gullible can someone be ????
Most educated people, question what they read in the newspaper... and for good reason.. I always wonder when someone believes a document from thousands of years ago.. and takes it at face value...
Now, as for a nuclear war... if a bomb was developed and expoloded.. (impossible with the technology of the time) we would be able to detect the byproducts of nuclear explosion.. most of its components have half lives of tens of thousands of years or longer (if you don't know that means, look it up).
So, the answer is no.. impossible...
Reply:
I shouldn't write to those who can't comprehend what they read or
or haven't read the entire thread, or have multipal profile IDs and
an agenda.
But for any literate honest walk-in skip brousers stumbling over
your statement, I'll state again that one of the main questions is
not if we can believe the events in the ancient document, happened,
but rather how was someone thousands of years ago, able to describe
the events so accurately, if there was no such technology?
And if you "question what you read in the newspaper" as you claim,
Why the hell don't you question what you read in the history books?
Are they not just a compilation of (old) newspapers?
Not saying you are, but if you are what you sound like...
Put a little thought into your propaganda. Or else you will have
to question what is written about you in your evaluation file.
toot-a-loo
. | |
|
| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/8/2007 9:09:03 PM | Debating a conspiracy theorist is a wate of time.
I have been listenuing to Coast to Coast for decades I know all about the conspiracy theories and Richard C Hoagland and his Enterprise project.
Hoagland is a fool, even Art Bell does not believe him 70 percent of the time.
It is entertainment and nothing more.
Why did I not use the older dates? They are disputed by most that's why.
Why are they disputed?
The older dates were contaminated by outside carbom sources.
Your "theories" are based upon innuendo and speculation, and using Wikipaedia come on, that IS NOT a reliable nor valid source of information.
Yet again I see nothing but ad hominem insult when a person has no argument based in fact.
If you believe this nonsense, write a book, heck you may get a Nobel and alter world history; then again maybe not.
As to using the internet for verifiable FACTS, although my libraary is quite extensive numbering in the several hundred if not approaching a thousand titles, the net, except for Wiki, is a valid source.
From now on I guess I need will restrict myself to Univeristy databases whereby only those that are active members in Academia have access to.
In the future you need to use better discretion in your sources, for example as I did by NOT using disputed and/or refuted data as you pointed out.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki increased background radiation: The people who were put through the terrible events of August 1945, and their offspring, are more closely monitored than almost anyone else by doctors and scientists.
"This is the only place where we can research the effect of radiation on the human body," said Dr Saeko Fujiwara, at the Radiation Effects Research Foundation.
The number of cancer cases among the survivors will continue to rise in the next few years, perhaps peaking in the 2020s.
The survivors have suffered physically from cataracts, leukemia and other cancers, malformed offspring, and premature aging.
Almost a hundred years later, the 2020's, and the effects will JUST be peaking, so NO "they" are not walking around unaffected.
In fact you can read the effects here:
http://www.rerf.jp/general/research_e/radtoc.html
cancer rates:
http://www.rerf.jp/general/qa_e/qa2.html
The excess risk of leukemia, seen especially among those exposed as children, was highest during the first 10 years after exposure and has continued to decrease throughout the study period. However, the excess risk for cancers other than leukemia continues today, and it seems likely that this excess risk will persist throughout the lifetime of the survivors. About 16% of all cancer deaths and about 25% of the excess--or radiation related--cancer deaths for the period from 1950 through 1990 occurred from 1986 to 1990.
Another example:
People are still dying from the radiation caused by the Chernobyl accident. The estimated total number of deaths will be 16,000. Chernobyl is also measurable from anywhere in the world.
Radioactive ruins ?
Where's the data?
FACT: after doing my own reasearch into the matter:
"We thus find that there no newspapers carried the story of the discovery. The Indian archaeological authorities are not aware of the story"
But I did find this:
There is a nuclear powerplant facility at Rawatbhatta.
You are being misleading, purposefully, and it is dishonest, I stated that nuclear fission byproducts exist for a half life of a million years or more, some of these are: Kr-85: Sr-90 and Cs-137 granted some only last seconds, less than seconds, but the isotopes that last for millions of years can be detected and measured accurately, the decay rates are measurable, defined, and accurate, there is NO such evidence, unless of course you believe that this data is suppressed in a Global intergovernmental Conspiracy.
If there was a nuclear exchange WE could measure the increased background radiation, we could measure the fission products and accuraetly date them.
You know Art has people on air that believe there's a hole in the North Pole, that the Earth is flat, and that we never went to the moon, and that there is a secret planet "X" that is going to colided with the Earth in 2012, but NASA et al is keeping it a secret. | |
|
| Nuclear War 12,000 years ago?
Posted: 12/8/2007 9:27:08 PM | Please note that you have also confused or purosefully misconstrued "radiation" with "fission byproducts" the two are not the same, one, the former can arise from a myriad of explanations; natural or man made, say from a nuclear power plant, the latter can only arise from fission, the splitting of atoms ir a nuclear or atomic explosion.
So NO it does NOT prove that the described event, if real, was NOT a merterorite [or comet] as you falsely claim. In fact the absence of fission byproducts PROVES that the radiation, if it exists, was NOT from fission.
If "they" discovered fission byproducts dating back 12 000 years we would ALL know about it.
Or as I stated there would have to be a multi-national, intra and intergovernmental conspiracy that includes ALL civilian research centres upon the face of the Earth. | |
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