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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/6/2007 10:54:06 PM | | Plus this shooter had a few problems with his life. Seems this new generation has too many whiners. I lost my job...whine, My girlfriend left me...whine...no one loves me...whine....so instead of pulling himself up by his bootsraps, he decides to kill himself and take a few innocents with him to become what??? Famous? Infamous is more like it. How did this MTV/Hip Hop culture come to be, that to kill others is grounds for Fame? Seems real sad to me. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/6/2007 11:02:31 PM | Gun control is never going to stop such incidents, but it will reduce them - and reduce their lethality. As I've said before, Montreal (with it's strict gun control) has had three such incidents over the last 18 years.
Anywhere you have weapons, and people who can sink into mental illness, you'll have such incidents. Europe and Australia have had them , too.
That's unfortunately life, in our world today.
Arming everyone isn't going to be much better, as it simply increases the odds that there will be someone with a gun who snaps.
The solution, if any, is for people to not overlook others slipping off into madness. Most times there are signs that something is wrong, and if such circumstances arise with someone who has a firearm it's time to warn someone about it , talk to them before they reach the point where they reach for a gun, and/or both. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/6/2007 11:55:51 PM | MF:
He stole the firearm from his stepdad according to one report
Barnacle:
This was a pretty determined individual. I'm sure if no guns was the case, he would have found some other method to kill. Homemade pipe bombs, stealing a vehicle and running people down, or maybe even shank a few people with one of those huge collectible Bowie knives from the Franklin Mint.
So, essentially, following your logic, we should also ban ball bearings, automobiles, and anything capable of puncturing the skin. Nice. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 1:15:15 AM | Right heres the crack its pretty simple:-
THE MORE GUNS THERE ARE IN THE WORLD THE MORE DEATHS THERE WILL BE. END OF!!!!!!!
Im getting fed up reading comments such as "its not about gun control" what a load of tosh. If people would realise that sooner rather than later we'd all be a lot safer.
But "he stole the gun from his stepdad" so it can't be anything to do with gun laws ?
Wrong if there were stricter gun laws maybe his stepdad would not have even owned a gun for him to take in the first place. And for anyone that says he would have gone out and killed using knives instead maybe you'r right BUT i can almost gaurantee that there would be less casualties/fatalaties !!
If someone would like to challenge this point of view then please do, although i can not see how carrying a gun on the streets can be justified in any way !! | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 2:59:22 AM | Birm, You're absolutely right. I mean look at DC. Soon as they enacted a complete ban on handguns, gun violence just went way down didn't it...
Oh wait. Come to think of it, gun violence increased dramatically in DC afterwards. My mistake.
Tell ya what: I'll move next door to you, we'll ask a few violent felons to set up shop in our neighborhood, and you can display your "Gun Free Zone" sign proudly on your front lawn. Then we'll see who gets victimized first.
It's simple logic: criminals prefer unarmed victims. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 3:23:47 AM | LOL i wouldn't know about DC as i'm from the UK where gun crime is rising admitedly but not even close to the problem that USA has.
Simple logic eh, no, the logic is that guns kill !! If they weren't there then people wouldn't get shot - simple
The problem is that because of America's liberal attitudes towards guns everyman and his dog owns one(especially crimminals)so i guess its difficult to go back now. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 4:29:37 AM | Gun control does nothing but assure that peaceful citizens who could prevent crimes, or save themselves from harm -- are dissarmed and rendered helpless. Shootings continue in England, Germany and other countries where private possession is almost non-existent. School shootings have happened in Canada in 1999 and 2006. In New York in 2002. In Deleware in 2007. In California in 2001. People can always get hold of a gun. Here in Florida -- they've even been stolen from parked police cars. If citizens were REQUIRED to carry guns -- at least they would have a chance to stop these type of crimes by unbalanced crazies. Most of these shootings are people who'v totally flipped out. This latest one is from a kid who was just released from mental and drug treatment. Typical! Yet, mass shootings, from a statistical standpoint - are an almost non-existent percentage. Remember -- just short of half the families in the USA have firearms. Many, more than one. Plus, statistics show that firearms are used by citizens (not cops) to lawfully stop crimes up to 2.5 million times a year, and in every state that's enacted concealed weapon permit legislation -- crime has gone down.
Unfortunately, life is not perfect, and on occasion some nut job with blow -- and take some of us with them. If it's not a gun -- it'll be a bomb (much easier to make from stuff available at any supermarket), or a car (has happened a few times already), or a knife. Whatever -- no matter what you do -- it will happen. The question is whether your answer to the issue is chip away more of our Freedoms as citizens, or stand up and defend yourself.
Obviously -- I've chosen the latter choice -- and by the way - I've helped stopped a car theft, and kidnapping because of it. If I was unarmed -- I would never have gotten involved in the first place. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 4:32:09 AM | Vermont in 2006
New York in 2002
Deleware in 2007
Maryland in 2001
Michigan in 2000
Montreal in 2006
So much for that theory. | |
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Kixxie
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Joined: 2/11/2007
Msg: 34 | |
| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 4:56:51 AM | Yesterday, I found out that while I was on my way to Omaha to pick up my son’s girlfriend from the airport, 8 people were being shot to death and 5 others were wounded by gunfire. With the holidays coming up and the Christmas shopping that is still needing to be done, it’s scary to think about how easily it could have been a member of my family or one of my friends as our family does alot of shopping in the Omaha malls. With Robert Hawkin’s statement that he wanted to “Go out in style”, I’ve yet to figure out how wounding and killing innocent people can be described as “stylish”. While it’s pretty much a no-brainer that the survivers will need extensive therapy to help them work through the trauma they went through, after going through such a tragic episode, I wonder if they will be able to receive ENOUGH therapy to get them through this and to enable to go on with their lives in any sort of a normal way. I wasn’t even in the mall and after hearing about the shootings, I know I will definitely hesitate before walking into another Omaha mall. I can’t begin to imagine how hard it will be for those that were there to ever consider shopping in a mall in Omaha again, much less anywhere else. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims, their families and friends as well as the survivors.
The fact that the shooter had emotional problems is no secret. It was well known before, and there is definitely no doubt about it now. What amazes me is the number of people with emotional problems in the United States that are overlooked. The reasons/excuses, whatever you want to call it range from:
People not caring when they see someone in trouble (the “it’s not my problem” syndrome that seems to be the norm anymore.
People not thinking they can do anything to help the person having problems. (Or at least not knowing which resources are available to go to, or to refer the person to)
People not being able to get the treatment they need due to not having enough money or no insurance, or both.
People not wanting to step up and say “My son/daughter/friend/parent/sibling (whatever the case) needs help” and actually doing something about it for fear of upsetting or angering the person.
It seems so easy for people to take the “it’s not my responsibility” approach and then to blame someone else when a person with psychological problems goes on a rampage.
While I dont in any way feel that the shooter should be glorified or excused for his actions, I do believe that people are going to have to start stepping up and stop ignoring the people with emotional problems if we want these kind of senseless shootings to be prevented. Alot of people died and were injured yesterday because no one cared enough to see to it that Robert Hawkins got the kind of mental treatment that was needed. The people that knew him best, KNEW that he had problems, KNEW that he was at a minimum SUICIDAL and as far as I am aware of right now, didnt bother making that one phone call that could have gotten him evaluated and treated. (To my knowledge, there was no mention about anyone requesting mental health care for him). Granted, they arent the ones that pulled the trigger, but had they cared enough, made one 5 minute phone call out of a lifetime, there is a POSSIBLITY that this tragedy could have been prevented. How people can know that someone is suicidal and not do anything because they didnt know that the person would hurt others, baffles me. Did HIS life not matter enough? How many deaths is it going to take before people stop looking the other way?
When is the government going to step up and take responsibility in their role in health care? Probably never. There’s been lots of promises made about health care reform, but where are the results of those promises? Where is the health care for those with no money and no insurance? How many deaths is it going to take before the government puts health care at least somewhere towards the top of their list?
These are just my own personal thoughts about the shooting. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 6:15:03 AM | "If someone would like to challenge this point of view then please do, although i can not see how carrying a gun on the streets can be justified in any way !!"
- very simply justified in 2 ways - for one, there are plenty of people walking the street who do not value human life and have no problem killing for money or in this Omaha moron's case, for the sake of being remembered. I don't carry a weapon for the cool factor and I don't carry it to feel big and bad - its an insurance policy against those in our corroding culture, who are dangerous to me and those I care about.
- justification #2 - I have the right to carry, I choose to exercise my rights. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 9:01:12 AM | Has nothing to do with gun control, laws of any kind or any other such nonsense.
Judging by the short snippet I saw on BBC World News, sounded like another 'quiet' guy who had been kicked in the teeth by fate a few thousand times too many. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 9:06:20 AM | As someone noted….
The police arrived within 6 minutes of the first 911 call, that’s an amazing response time, but as I stated in an earlier post they were able to do little more then fill out paper work and do a body count.
When you call 911, you are essentially calling for a man with a GUN to come protect/save you.
So do we turn our countries into police states, with a cop on every corner, and at the entrance to every public place? Just because we have a few crazies that might do something like this?
Or do we allow people to defend themselves, to act as their own first responders so to speak, perhaps this tragedy could have been mitigated somewhat by a person with a concealed handgun.
To those who think the solution is to ban all guns…….
Prostitution is illegal, but it still exists, and I’m sure most of us know exactly what part of town we could go to, to find a prostitute if we wished.
Alcohol prohibition really worked well didn’t it ? I suppose it did from the perspective of the gangsters that became quite wealthy selling alcohol on the black-market , at the time no-one was able to foresee the consequences that prohibition would bring, they thought simply in utopian, idealistic ways that all the evils of alcohol consumption would be removed from society, but alas that was not the reality was it.
We have a prohibition on drugs, a war on drugs so to speak, seems to me it simply fuels the current crop of gang violence that plagues our inner cities. It sure doesn’t stop us or our kids from getting our hands on illegal drugs does it?
But for some reason people fail to see the similarities to Alcohol Prohibition, and yet we continue to waste billions trying to fight a battle we will never win instead of looking at other solutions.
And sadly the same can be said about guns, to many people seem to think by banning guns they would simply go away, please people use a little common sense will you, it just won’t happen, there is already a black-market for guns all over the world, it would simply get bigger and more lucrative. It would do nothing to remove guns from the hands of criminals and or crazy people wishing to use them to do evil.
In all of the above examples the Genie is already out of the bottle, she can never be put back.
We will always have prostitution, alcohol, drugs and guns, no matter how many laws we enact trying to ban them there will always be a way to get any of them as long as there is a market for them.
This is simply a reality. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 9:07:44 AM | | It is so ironic to see that nobody calls this guy "A terrorist". However, if this individual had an Islamic name, I am pretty sure the whole forum would call it "Islamic terrorist" and the media would be all over the place making a huge news out of it. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 9:08:18 AM | Someone implied that no one reached out to this kid, no one made a phone call that could have helped him, sadly that’s not true.
It’s now known this kid has had problems for many years in-fact, I read where the State of Nebraska had spent well over $250,000.00 on this kid over the years as he went into and out of different state mental and drug abuse institutions, so throwing more money at the problem probably wouldn’t have helped him.
So should somebody(big brother) be empowered to decide this person (or any person for that matter) may one day go off the deep end, and society would be better served if he was incarcerated for life or even put down just to avoid the possibility he might do what he did ?
Of course not, but just what is the solution ? | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 9:20:56 AM | ^^^"""...It’s now known this kid has had problems for many years in-fact. I read where the State of Nebraska had spent well over $250,000.00 on this kid over the years as he went into and out of different state mental and drug abuse institutions, ..."""
These are good facts to know. Perhaps we could get a link to that information. And no, as for what is the solution, I have no idea. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 10:04:34 AM | He could have used a variety of weapons:
Plastic bags, duct tape, rope, any handy blunt object, poison, diesel fuel and fertilizer (McVeigh killed what was it 179 people in OKC with that), spray paint, matches, gasoline, tires, etc....
The point is People kill People...guns do not. all the above has been used by serial killers to kill people. A gun lets you protect yourself.
All major cities have strict gun laws, yet 100's die in each city.....gun laws never work. If you carry an illegal gun, punish that person. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 10:39:06 AM |
Someone implied that no one reached out to this kid, no one made a phone call that could have helped him, sadly that’s not true.
It’s now known this kid has had problems for many years in-fact, I read where the State of Nebraska had spent well over $250,000.00 on this kid over the years as he went into and out of different state mental and drug abuse institutions, so throwing more money at the problem probably wouldn’t have helped him.
Institutional responses seem to accomplish little. What's needed is response from family and friends, if possible. By the time it's reached the point where someone is in mental hospitals and drug treatment centers, it's probably too late to ensure they won't snap.
One smart move, and it seems to be in effect more and more, is releasing information about potential mental illness to a central registry.
WASHINGTON, June 13 — The House voted Wednesday to close a loophole in gun control laws that allowed the Virginia Tech gunman to buy firearms even though he had been committed to a mental hospital. The Senate is likely to follow suit, marking the first time since 1996 that Congress has approved a measure strengthening gun control.
The bill’s approval, on a voice vote, came on the same day as the release of a report President Bush ordered after the shootings in April at Virginia Tech, in which a student killed 32 people and himself. The cabinet agencies that wrote the report found that schools, doctors and the police were not fully aware of what information could legally be shared in a web of confusing and overlapping privacy laws.
The House bill, a compromise between gun rights supporters and gun control advocates on both sides of the aisle, would provide grant money for states to update the national database that gun dealers use for background checks on prospective buyers. The update would add more criminal records and mental health information to the database.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/washington/14guns.html?n=Top
/Reference/Times%20Topics/Organizations/V/Virginia%20Polytechnic%20
Institute%20and%20State%20University
That's at least a start.
That's one of the reasons I like our gun control laws here. To apply for one means having some basic checking done on one's ability to safely own a weapon. The police will contact a person's work, and any significant other they have been involved with recently.
That means at least a chance to catch people who may be dangerous, since those people know them fairly well.
Again, that's not going to mean that they won't go mad afterwards. 
I also think it has a lot to do with culture. If one lives in a country where guns are so often seen as "the answer" to problems, then I do feel there is more of a chance they will be misused by people . If weapons make one "powerful" , then I think that this means that crazed individuals will also feel "empowered" by using them , too.
It's a madman's version of that American gun myth, corrupted by their mental illness. One suddenly has both the power of life and death over others, and the promise of celebrity that goes with such acts of madness. If one feels forgotten and powerless, it's certainly an obvious choice for at least a temporary empowerment.
It's a worldwide problem, not limited to the USA in any way. It's just more prevalent there thanks to a unique combination of cultural beliefs, and easier access to rather powerful weapons. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 11:24:11 AM | The first artical I found that mentioned it...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315881,00.html
New details also surfaced about the gunman.
State officials said Hawkins spent four years in a series of treatment centers, group homes and foster care after threatening to kill his stepmother in 2002.
Finally, in August 2006, social workers, the courts and his father all agreed: It was time for Hawkins to be released — nine months before he turned 19 and would have been required to leave anyway.
The group homes and treatment centers were for youths with substance abuse, mental or behavioral problems. Altogether, the state spent about $265,000 on Hawkins, officials said. The aftermath of Wednesday's killings left some who knew Hawkins questioning if more should have been done.
"He should have gotten help, but I think he needed someone to help him and needed someone to be there when in the past he's said he wanted to kill himself," said Karissa Fox, who said she knew Hawkins through a friend. "Someone should have listened to him."
Todd Landry, state director of children and family services, said court records do not show precisely why Hawkins was released. But he said if Hawkins should not have been set free, an official would have raised a red flag.
"It was not a failure of the system to provide appropriate services," Landry said. "If that was an issue, any of the participants in the case would have brought that forward."
As MG pointed out , what this kid needed was family and of course Love, but then don't we all.
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 1:00:39 PM |
State officials said Hawkins spent four years in a series of treatment centers, group homes and foster care after threatening to kill his stepmother in 2002.
What a shame....gone are the days when a troubled kid like this would remain at home and their parents deal with their issues or go and live with loving grandparents, aunts or uncles.
Makes me wonder how many parents are unknowingly raising potential serial killers.
Brandie46 | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 1:29:07 PM | As Martin Luther King once said : " A riot is at bottom the language of the unheard."
The sounds of a fusillade are at the bottom the language of the unloved and forgotten.  | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 2:09:26 PM | ^That's almost dangerous thinking in the wrong hands. It's not a bad idea because it IS the solution but unfortunately it can't be the only one in effect at any given time. For too long "love" has been the institutional response to everything despite the fact that I can't imagine that any state has ever been very skilled at doling out love. The hug-a-thug mentality of Canadian law hasn't spared us much misery. In fact, I'm willing to bet that it's made things worse.
In principle I agree with you though. It seems that by itself and as the sole guiding mantra of preventative measures , it's lacking in some fundamentals. Yes, ultimately the family and friends route is the most logical and likely the most effective means of ensuring this sort of thing isn't constantly repeated but there are other factors we should include in any attempt to curb this sort of hysterical violence. We might, as I said earlier, stop giving people precisely what they're looking for by making them famous in the media. We might also engage in a campaign to make people aware of their options. "No...you don't have to go to the mall with a semi-auto and extra clips. Here's a number if you want to talk". While such services already exist for the most part, nobody seems to be very much aware of the fact.
Anyway, just throwing ideas out there to see if something sticks. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 4:44:04 PM | It's not guns that kill people, it's people that kill people!
However, if this young kid had only been able to get his hands on a baseball bat you can't help think that maybe he wouldn't have been able to do quite so much damage.
At the very least he wouldn't have been able to take his own life. You rarely hear of teenagers clubbing themselves to death do you? | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 5:11:47 PM | | There will never be a solution as the reality of it would put people out of work and our society doesn't want that...Do we? I'm talking everything in general I don't know why this kid did it..But I looked almost exacley like that kid when I was his age and I wanted to kill people at that age too I was bullied I don't know what happened to this kid when I was fired fom MacDonalds I broke into the store and ripped em off..It's like everything else homelessness, elder abuse, domestic violence, there are so many government programs that suck taxpayers money without that support those government grants alot of people would be outta work so no one really wants a solution....They just all get together and talk about it, make up programs fill kids full of drugs and a temporany answer is only that. I'm temporarly answering myself right now Jeeezus!This is some great weed..and the valium doesn't hurt either...And the other thing which is the only thing that counts is that the person involved the killer, drunk, addict, bum, abuser, has to want to change..I went to aa for 17 years and it helped to an extent..It showed me what I had missed as a child LOVE. If your going to have a kid take responsblity for the kid and tell that kid you love them, don't hit him or her..The child would much rather have love and acceptence than money and a new car..I was a runaway these other kids told me if I wanted something to read go into a doctors office there's always magazines...I got this one called " Guideposts" God he'd be looking out for me along time, all that hate, anger, rage, started slowly leaving me in my late teens early twentys, still thought about it, still do someone makes me mad enough..But then there's God and after talking to him for awhile the anger goes away....Well at least for me I aien't no preacher just a minister from hells kitchen..The funny thing about it is I don't have to change a fu@king thing about myself for God to accept me.. | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/7/2007 11:20:54 PM | The whole theory of arming or allowing every citizen with a weapon solely to protect themselves when something like this happens, baffles me. The concept that if someone commits a crime against me and because I have a gun, I can use vigilante justice just to protect myself, amazes me.
I can see it now, I'm holiday shopping in a crowded mall, a crazed psycho somehow manages to obtain a gun and starts shooting people at random. Because I'm fully armed with a weapon myself I can protect myself and take the law into my own hands and shoot back. Now, if we allow other private citizen's to pack heat, and they feel the need to protect themselves also, they start shooting along side myself.
Interesting concept,,,not only do we have a psycho with a gun, but 10-20 untrained private citizen's with guns shooting at each other..and all of this before 911 is called..
I'm guessing we will need more body bags..... | |
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| 19 Year Old Kills 8 Shoppers in Mall
Posted: 12/8/2007 12:37:11 AM | It's not about arming every single person with a handgun, it's about allowing a signifigant portion of the population who is interested in doing so carry a firearm. So you reach some sort of point where the potential killer realizes that the odds are he will be cut down by some COMPETENT individual very quickly. I'm wondering what your definition of "untrained" is. Police training? Military training? An NRA safety course?
The fact is that in situations where other citizens have had thier own firearms nearby, the killers were stopped very quickly. This is not vigilante justice. This is self defense. Vigilantism occures when you pursue the criminal after they have fled and turn into the agressor yourself. Not when you shoot somebody who is in the process of attacking you or other innocents. | |
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