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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/18/2007 9:25:46 PM | Merc said:
Well if you believe the group I cite to be fictional how about you go into the wokplace tomorrow and tell everyone and everyone our thoughts about them, even when someone has pissed you off and see how long you last. Sure you have a right to speak your mind- but dont expect to stay long
Honestly, I'm not sure what your point is. Can you clarify?
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Republiman said:
I didn't see all this ranting when US soldiers were tortured and beheaded, ...
Despite what you may think, there is (and has been) contempt for the brutal tactics of the terrorists/insurgents. But they are the bad guys; that kind of conduct is almost expected (otherwise, they wouldn't be bad, right?). We don't have any control over what they do. But we're supposed to be the good guys. So when we use practices like waterboarding, that have a long and storied history with brutal dictatorships, we get painted with that same brush. So yeah, you're probably going to see/hear a lot of people object to it.
And as an aside, it appears that after world-wide condemnation of their beheadings, they stopped doing it. They decided that whatever benefit they thought they were getting from it wasn't worth the price they paid internationally. It will be a good day when our own government is astute enough to recognize the importance of image on the world stage.
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Exodusi said:
It doesn't save lives, so are you against it?
I have to admit that I'm curious on what you are basing your claim that torture/waterboarding has never saved lives. So far as I know, nobody has said that torture won't get some truthful information. The problems are:
1) sifting through the false information to find the true information
2) it's use as a recruiting tool by our enemies
3) the damage that it causes to our international reputation
4) the moral boundary that is crossed by legitimizing torture in our country | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/18/2007 10:14:53 PM | Certainly. Since you insist that there are individuals who cannot come out within the services, of whom youd like to believe is a fictional group, I figured if you doubted that people have restrictions of what they can say- to try it out yourself.
And Ill follow it up with two questions:
Isnt it reasonable to believe that there are interregators who do see waterboarding as a practical tecnique? After all, I know of very few issues where there are not a difference of opinion.
And secondly, would it be in the best interest of an agent's career to come out and speak a favorable opinion of waterboarding? (Doesnt the climate of this issue infer risk of a career?) | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/18/2007 10:59:08 PM |
Isnt it reasonable to believe that there are interregators who do see waterboarding as a practical tecnique?
It is almost certain there are, just not any of the good ones. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/18/2007 11:40:16 PM | in msg 228, Merc said:
Since you insist that there are individuals who cannot come out within the services, of whom youd like to believe is a fictional group, I figured if you doubted that people have restrictions of what they can say- to try it out yourself.
Actually, I am not the one who is insisting that there are individuals who cannot come forward and endorse the virtues of torture.
I'd "like to believe" don't exist? Once again:
There is No Debate Except for Torture Apologists
- Malcolm Nance
Coming from this background, it has been disappointing to observe the ongoing debate about torture in interrogation, usually carried out by people who have never interrogated a soul.
- Stuart Herrington
So, I'll ask again: what do you know that they don't? What experience or information do you have that conflicts with, and is more compelling than, their combined experience?
//-----------------
Isnt it reasonable to believe that there are interregators who do see waterboarding as a practical tecnique? After all, I know of very few issues where there are not a difference of opinion.
Anything is theoretically possible. But that is not proof of the validity of the technique. But, just for the sake of argument, let's suppose that you were to find an interrogator who actually thinks it's a good idea to torture people in order to get information; I can tell you with an extremely high degree of confidence that his competence would be seriously questioned by his peers. And despite your attempt to portray it as such, it is not a question of being politically correct. It is because the institutional knowledge that has been passed along to interrogators is very clear on this point. For an interrogator to hold such a belief would indicate that he has ignored his actual training for the "training" he has gotten from pop culture. I am sure that you are probably already familiar with some manifestations of this phenomenon, especially when it comes to weapons handling, no? It can be difficult for military training (or any training, for that matter) to overcome the years and years of repetition that many people get from TV. So, you may be able to find the odd interrogator who thinks torture is a good idea, but it would be in spite of his training, not because of it.
As Herrington and Nance have already stated, there is NO debate raging about this issue by professionals behind closed doors. That is another myth, used by people who are looking for reasons to justify torture. At this point, the closest thing to a debate is probably an expression of frustration over the cloud that has been cast over their profession.
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And secondly, would it be in the best interest of an agent's career to come out and speak a favorable opinion of waterboarding? (Doesnt the climate of this issue infer risk of a career?)
Officially, it probably wouldn't make a difference, unless they were to state that they had done it. Then they would probably have their rights read to them, and for good reason. Unofficially? Again, people would probably start to question their competence, or at the very least would start to question if maybe their emotions were clouding their objectivity and discipline. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 7:00:12 AM |
And secondly, would it be in the best interest of an agent's career to come out and speak a favorable opinion of waterboarding? (Doesnt the climate of this issue infer risk of a career?)
IF it was as valuable as people claim, and an interrogator strongly believed in it's validity, I think we could have possibly expected to see a few things happening.
1) I think those tapes would have been made public, showing how "easily" information was obtained (although what information would be obviously withheld from the public), and that a concerted effort to have such individuals come forward would have been made.
2)The Army field manual would have been changed to allow it.
3) People would have not spent so much time and effort trying to say it WASN'T torture.They would have produced your "professional" witness as a perfect example of WHY this procedure was in fact needed.
4) People like those listed would have not as come out as harshly and decisively against it.
I think those tapes were destroyed not because they showed the validity of waterboarding, but far more because (as Harrington noted about knowing it when you see it) it would have PROVED to almost every person watching it how odious the procedure actually was.
As for saving lives there's a bit of a logical fallacy going on here.
Number one, no one's been able to show how or why those lives were saved. We may have to live with that, for good operational reasons, or it may be someone talking through his hat . We'll never know.
Number two, there's no way of ever knowing if alternate methods would have worked as well, or perhaps even better.
Number three, there's also no way of ever knowing how much the risk has increased due to the enemy using it against the USA, to encourage others. If, in two years, another terrorist crashes a plane into a building, and we discover he was originally radicalized by reports of inhumane treatment like waterboarding - do we add the people killed by him to the plus/minus calculation ?
If America survived from it's inception without waterboarding, against some far greater threats, why is it suddenly so vital now ? | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 10:06:06 AM | Montreal Guy said:
If, in two years, another terrorist crashes a plane into a building, and we discover he was originally radicalized by reports of inhumane treatment like waterboarding - do we add the people killed by him to the plus/minus calculation ?
Damnit. Once again you have presented it, phrased it, in a way I wish I had thought of.
This aspect of the problem cannot be stressed strongly enough. I have quoted Nance, Baer, and Herrington all saying essentially the same thing. I'm hoping that if it gets repeated enough times it will begin to sink in.
OUR USE OF TORTURE MAKES IT THAT MUCH EASIER FOR OUR ENEMIES TO RECRUIT NEW FIGHTERS. <-- That is a bad thing. This is not conjecture or theory; it has been well-established. Captured AQ leaders have said as much. Look at what the Abu Ghraib photos did to the image of the US military in Iraq. It made our job there infinitely harder. There is no doubt in my mind that Coalition Soldiers were killed by people who joined the cause as a result of what happened there. And it has nothing to do with the media. As Iraqi's were released from Abu Ghraib, word spread quickly. And if anybody thinks that the rest of the world makes a distinction between what happens at Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, and secret CIA prisons, think again. They are all perceived as being different elements of a consistent policy. And guess what? They are.
Again:
The Israelis figured all of this out a long time ago. For the last three years I have been in and out of Israeli jails interviewing members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Many of them had been in suicide bomber cells — just the kind of people the Israelis would want to extract every last detail out of. None of them, however, claimed to have been tortured. The Israelis found out what they needed to know using traditional, legal police methods. It simply isn't worth it for them to risk damaging their already shaky international reputation by torturing suspects on the slim hope they just may get a lead.
- Robert Baer
This is not an issue of "idealism vs. realism", as I have seen claimed a few times. At least in this particular case, idealism and realism are in perfect alignment. This is the reality. Our use of torture is bad policy.
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 10:15:13 AM |
it has been well-established. Captured AQ leaders have said as much. What a baseless argument. Of course they will say That, they dont want themselves or their comrades to be tortured. Are you really that delusional. I believe that we should adopt the philosophy of "by any means necessary"People whose purpose in life is to instill terror, should experience some terror of their own. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 10:33:15 AM |
What a baseless argument. Of course they will say That, they dont want themselves or their comrades to be tortured. Are you really that delusional.
Just because it doesn't conform to your beliefs doesn't mean it's delusional. I suppose you know better than the vast majority of the intelligence community? Are they all delusional as well? Forced to choose, I know who is more likely to be delusional. I'm pretty sure that they know more than you do about this subject. This idea is not new or even controversial. But for those people for whom Jack Bauer is porn (wish I could take credit for that phrase, but as far as I know it was coined by Shieldvulf in another thread), they choose to ignore reality when it oh-so inconveniently gets in the way of their emotion-based, revenge-laced, jingoistic slogans like "they should experience terror of their own", which is just another way of saying that they support state-sponsored terrorism, but only when they do it. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 1:29:09 PM |
All that changed -- and Zubayda reportedly had a divine revelation -- after 30 to 35 seconds of waterboarding, Kiriakou said he learned from the CIA agents who performed the technique.
The terror suspect, who is being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, reportedly gave up information that indirectly led to the the 2003 raid in Pakistan yielding the arrest of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, an alleged planner of the September 11, 2001, attacks, Kiriakou said. Did you not read the article by the OP? You think torture is wrong, that is fine but you cannot deny the fact that it does work sometimes...I support whatever it takes to insure the safety and well being of our citizens if that includes torturing people who mean to kill innocent civilians then so be it...interesting attempt to discredit my positon by making allusions to a television show, for the record I have never watched the show, have heard about it though, just never interested...Do you have any conclusive proof that torture never works?First of all I find it hard to believe that any method of retreiving information from terrorists never works..secondly, I think that given your belief in the immorality of torture you really don't care about the efficacy of torture... | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 1:34:02 PM | | I'll catch some flak for this but thats life..... I remember vividly on the evening news the day of 9/11 thousands upon thousands of muslims in the middle east dancing in the streets over what happened here that day, I saw them rejoicing as others suffered, I saw man, woman, and child over acting like it was a day of jubilee, well folks in that one instant I stopped caring or worrying about anyone and anything in that part of the world..... If we waterboard a hundred of them too instill just an ounce of fear I'm all for it, for those people that you all feel sorry for, on that day stopped being people too me, they and I mean every one of them are the enemy.. And come on tell me they are human beings, and I'll tell you I find not one thing human about them... So you can post on here all you want about how wrong we are for water boarding these scum, and you have your right too your oppinion, as do i... You feel sorry for them thats great i on the other hand feel satisfaction everytime one of them is run out of existance.... | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 1:48:17 PM | Montreal guy, book, not everything that is benificial is carried out, for whatever reason. Slipperly slope or liability, we see and hear these reasons every day. The Army montreal the army does not have he same mission nor the same experience in the intell buisness as the CIA. Its an issue with PR and this is definately a loaded subject.
And to believe that agents who put themselves out there in support of limited waterboarding in this political climate arent making themselves vunerable is irrational | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 239 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 1:49:52 PM | Ok, I"m adding my two cents as usual. Interrogation andsometimes torture is called upon to save lives of innocent civilians as well as military members, if they do not talk, you MAKE them talk, is it humane? Of course not, torture is never humane, but please tell me when a terrorist or the enemy ever just volunteered information upon the request of "please"? It's never happened, where I"m stating this, it should be performed by professionals who have been trained with this technique as well as other techniques, and also in stating this, I'm not saying that our nation has not put immature power hungry in charge of our prisons, whether civilian or military for that matter, proof of this is down in Tallahassee, the prison guards there were having sex with the female inmates, and of course in the military sector, Abu Gharib, I was honestly disgusted at all the pictures of the "thumbs up" while leaning over dead bodies, it was disgusting and disrespectful to the dead, however, the CIA is an agency that is not trained to be humane, they are trained to do what we mere civilians could not even fathom, even within our worse nightmares, and they do it to keep us safe, therefore, one can say, the torture would not occur if they enemy would just talk, so can one really blame our nation for forcing information out of them that can save lives?
These techniques are not utilized on people who the CIA merely round up because they are bored, these are techniques utilized on some atrocious criminals who are trained not to talk, and I support our nation doing whatever it takes to get the information out of these monsters, anyone who whines and cries about torture of notorious criminals meaning terrorists, etc...has obviously not been the blunt of these monsters, but people can whine all they want, the reason people can whine in th is country is because agencies such as the CIA keep us safe on a daily basis from terrorism, and believe me, terrorists have their torture techniques as well, but I see no one criticizing their treatment of our own people, they butcher, maim and behead our people of course while taking soldier's dead bodies and dragging them in cars, only to leave them out in the desert to attract flies, where is your outrage there? SO excuse me if I do not show pity to people who do this to OUR people, they deserve what they get, and our nation is far more humane than other nations, I support torture, because it is only common sense to know this is how information is gathered. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 2:10:53 PM | We are the occupying force, so does that mean it is ok for them to torture our soldiers?
Ask John McCain if it works, read the works of Adm. Stockdale.
Just because someone in the CIA uses torture, doesn't make it right. The information attained by torture is NEVER viable.
What part of that don't you understand? | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 241 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 2:44:29 PM | The part that I do not understand is how you can think that missions have been accomplished without torture. John McCain was tortured, along with many other POW's in Vietnam, our men were beheaded during the Death March for merely falling out of the formation due to being so starved and dehydrated they could no longer walk, our OWN men have been forced to live in squalor conditions, and where are the people complaining about this? Torture works, not only for our own country, but for others, hence why it is used. Therefore, what part of that do YOU not understand?
I also wanted to add here that I find it quite humorous people denouncing our techniques but yet NOT denouncing techniques utilized by the enemy, it's even more humorous to even believe that even if our nation did downgrade their techniques that the enemy would do the same, that is enough to actually make me laugh, but this is not a laughing matter, terrorists should be treated with the same brute force which they have bestowed upon our people, and if it takes "Waterboarding" or even Chinese Water Torture, to make them talk, so be it, lives are saved due to these techniques, and I for one support the works of our CIA as well as appreciate agencies such as this, largely because, I don't have to do it, and I know they are saving lives and keeping us safe here within our own country. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 3:00:49 PM | Nona said:
Torture works, not only for our own country, but for others, hence why it is used. Therefore, what part of that do YOU not understand?
It seems some people haven't been keeping up-to-date with the discussion. For the late comers, the "War-And-Peace" explanation is found on page 9, in msg's 203 and 219, and on this page in msg's 232 and 234. Yes, it's a lot to read, but it's necessary if you want to make an informed decision on the subject. But just to address the quote above, I'll review (again):
When I was in the CIA I never came across a country that systematically tortures its citizens and at the same time produces useful intelligence. The objective of torture, invariably, is intimidation.
- Robert Baer, 20-year veteran of the CIA | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 243 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 3:07:24 PM | "When I was in the CIA I never came across a country that systematically tortures its citizens and at the same time produces useful intelligence. The objective of torture, invariably, is intimidation.
- Robert Baer, 20-year veteran of the CIA"
Where I respect a 20 yr veteran of the CIA, one must also state that this is HIS opinion, an opinion is what everyone is entitled to, but do notice how he is in the minority stating this, and where this man is entitled to his opinion, it doesn't make it law nor factual, it's still just his opinion, where he is very credible, and his information should be taken wholeheartedly, but, i'm sure the other CIA agents who do not support his opinion are just as credible, butI do not see any of their names, only the name of "one" man who does not support it. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 3:11:26 PM | Your jingoistic rant is nothing more than vitriolic nonsense.
There is NO EVIDENCE that torture has SAVED ONE life.
If torture was so effective, then why haven't we captured bin Laden?
If it is so effective, then why wasn't the Bush Administration able to prevent the attack on 9/11?
Torture doesn't work ans is immoral.
No one condones our enemies using torture or ciolence against our troops. That is such an ignorant statment that it demonstrates your lack of education. But condoning the US sinking to their level means you are not a good person! WWJD? I don't think he would condone torture, so I'm guessing you are NOT a Christian? | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 3:27:07 PM | Nona said:
but do notice how he is in the minority stating this, ...
On what are you basing this claim? What evidence do you have that he's in the minority? All of the evidence that has been presented in this discussion has clearly shown that his opinion is in the majority.
... only the name of "one" man who does not support it.
Reading this statement, it is clear that you haven't read the posts I recommended. But it is worth noting, yet again, that the ex-CIA officer cited in the OP, John Kiriakou, also considers waterboarding to be torture and is against it's use. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 3:32:59 PM | Hiding behind the guise of ineffectiveness is immoral. You are opposed to torture because you think it immoral.Trying to manipulate the facts and offer opinions of those who share your views does not make them anymore true. Whether you like it or not Torture does work not everytime but no means of gathering information from our enemies is 100% effective. Jesus would do what he would do, unfortunately we are not the son of God so we cant rely on divine intervention or the holy spirit to inhabit our enemies and force them to impart their knowledge.So we rely on means such as torture....
There is NO EVIDENCE that torture has SAVED ONE life There is NO EVIDENCE that torture hasn't saved Lives.
Waterboarding was an important technique, and some of these other techniques were important in collecting the information," he said. "But I personally didn't want to do it. I didn't think it was right in the long run, and I didn't want to be associated with it. What this means for all of you who are having difficulty comprehending is that torture does work and that most who are opposed are opposed because they think it immoral not ineffective. | |
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edisto
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Joined: 9/11/2007
Msg: 247 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 3:37:53 PM | great...
now we have someone calling waterboarding "torture" but now defending its use
go ahead America, give waterboarding your seal of approval
but don't complain when American troops are waterboarded
so what's next? because some fanatics behead, is that next on our agenda?
let's just dismiss the pesky Geneva Convention and hell, any other document that may appear humane
our new policy should be “anything goes” whoopee!!! | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 3:41:21 PM | I dont want to hear about people complain about the intelligence community if there is another attack. You people are so quick to tie the hands of the intelligence community and then expect magic.
They won't blame intel, they'll blame Bush 
"We( DEMOCRAT President FDR) also locked up Japanese-Americans and kept them in camps- times change and so does what we need to do."
Which was found thank god to be unconstitutional!
But detaining terrorists in Guantanamo was not. Additionally, you guys can thank FDR for resurrecting military tribunals that laid the foundation for Bush to do the same. | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 249 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 3:52:05 PM | "No one condones our enemies using torture or ciolence against our
troops. That is such an ignorant statment that it demonstrates
your lack of education. But condoning the US sinking to their
level means you are not a good person! WWJD? I don't think he
would condone torture, so I'm guessing you are NOT a Christian?"
What does my religious status have to do with this thread? Nothing,
therefore, keep religion out of the mix here, this is a thread about
torture, thank you :)
"If it is so effective, then why wasn't the Bush Administration
able to prevent the attack on 9/11?"
That is actually a good question, but I don't' think torture had
anything to do with a group of terrorists who decided to hijack planes
and ram them into the WTC.
"Torture doesn't work ans is immoral."
This is your opinion and I do respect that, alot of people agree with
you, but I for one support Torture if it's a means to save lives, and
the government obviously agrees with that logic.
"No one condones our enemies using torture or ciolence against our
troops. That is such an ignorant statment that it demonstrates
your lack of education."
I did not say anyone is condoning violence on our troops, what i said
before you so ignorantly became rude and showed YOUR lack of education,
is that people within the thread are denouncing tactics utilized
on the enemy but I did not see anyone denouncing tactics utilized
on our own people, therefore, this is a debate, not an argument with
you, and remember, once you become rude and obnoxious, it opens the
doors for others to do so, therefore, this was your freebie with me
next time I won't be so nice. By the way, for someone to accuse me
of not having an education, I want to demonstrate one of your words
in which you wrote , it is the following..."ciolence", last time
I checked, violence is spelled with a "V", not a "C", and who has
the lack of education?
"Reading this statement, it is clear that you haven't read the
posts I recommended. But it is worth noting, yet again, that the
ex-CIA officer cited in the OP, John Kiriakou, also considers
waterboarding to be torture and is against it's use."
You are correct, because more than likely I have already read it,
where once again, there are people who oppose it, obviously there is
a majority who do NOT oppose it otherwise, why would it still be happening? | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 250 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/19/2007 3:59:37 PM | "but don't complain when American troops are waterboarded"
They don't utilize the waterboarding techniques on our troops, primarily
the terrorists just slice their heads off.
"let's just dismiss the pesky Geneva Convention and hell, any
other document that may appear humane"
Actually, our nation even with the firestorm currently brewing does majority
wise follow the Geneva Convention, one of the few countries which
does, where I do support torture of enemy combatants, I believe our
country could learn alot from Israel in their interrogation methods,
The Israeli's have rules and their techniques are far better than
our nation's, they perform things actually which is more effective
than beatings, they deprive the combatants of food and sleep and they
do not even have to lay a hand on them, where I support torture, if
it is viable for that particular situation, but one can not sit
and state that it's wrong for our nation to gain information from
combatants at times by any means necessary and fail to notice the
treatment of our own troops in the hands of the enemy, that is
primarily my point. | |
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