my comment: so, do you think that US soldiers who KILLED thugs in WWI, WWII, VietNam, and Iraq, in protecting actual civilization, are (or would be, would you be religious) condemned?

My expectation is that God will give them a medal for courageously fighting for a peaceful world, at the expense of the thugs.

Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'

“I said he was important,” “You’re not going to let me lose face on this, are you?” says Bush.

Hey at least were not choping heads off!!!!!

you can not offer any type of opinion on what it is like to be a soldier,
reason being? YOu were never a soldier, I on the other hand
have been a soldier, therefore, yes, I'm still laffin at your attempt
in speaking for soldiers.

If we used your logic, the military would play board games with the
enemy as compared to gaining pertinent information to save lives, where
torture is utilized for different means, its also utilized to gain
information, and being "nice" to them does not work overall, I'm
glad those who have been in the hands of the enemy and after being
interrogated were treated with dignity and respect and made it through
the interrogations with their lives, but not all military personnel
as well as civilian personnel are that lucky, and that is a fact, I
do believe you along with others refuse to realize. Nice overall, does
not work.

WASHINGTON, Dec. 13, 2007

House Passes Ban On Waterboarding

Approves Intelligence Bill Outlawing Harsh CIA Interrogation Techniques

The House of Representatives on Thursday approved an intelligence bill that bans the Central Intelligence Agency from using waterboarding, mock executions and other harsh interrogation methods.

The 222-199 vote sent the measure to the Senate, which still must act before it can go to President Bush. The White House has threatened a veto.

The administration particularly opposes restricting the CIA to interrogation methods approved by the U.S. military in 2006. That document prohibits forcing detainees to be naked, perform sexual acts, or pose in a sexual manner; placing hoods or sacks over detainees' heads or duct tape over their eyes; beating, shocking, or burning detainees; threatening them with military dogs; exposing them to extreme heat or cold; conducting mock executions; depriving them of food, water, or medical care; and waterboarding.

Waterboarding is a particularly harsh form of interrogation that involves strapping down a prisoner, covering his mouth with plastic or cloth and pouring water over his face. The prisoner quickly begins to inhale water, causing the sensation of drowning.

The CIA is known to have waterboarded three prisoners but has not used the technique since 2003, according to a government official familiar with the program who spoke on condition of anonymity because the information is classified. CIA Director Michael Hayden prohibited waterboarding in 2006. The U.S. military outlawed it the same year.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/13/national/
main3616832.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_3616832

We now know that in October 2001, Khalid Shaykh Muhammad -- the mastermind of the September the 11th attacks -- had already set in motion a plan to have terrorist operatives hijack an airplane using shoe bombs to breach the****it door, and fly the plane into the tallest building on the West Coast. We believe the intended target was Liberty [sic] Tower in Los Angeles, California.

Rather than use Arab hijackers as he had on September the 11th, Khalid Shaykh Muhammad sought out young men from Southeast Asia -- whom he believed would not arouse as much suspicion. To help carry out this plan, he tapped a terrorist named Hambali [Riduan Isamuddin], one of the leaders of an al Qaeda affiliated group in Southeast Asia called "J-I" [Jemaah Islamiyah]. JI terrorists were responsible for a series of deadly attacks in Southeast Asia, and members of the group had trained with al Qaeda. Hambali recruited several key operatives who had been training in Afghanistan. Once the operatives were recruited, they met with Osama bin Laden, and then began preparations for the West Coast attack.

Their plot was derailed in early 2002 when a Southeast Asian nation arrested a key al Qaeda operative. Subsequent debriefings and other intelligence operations made clear the intended target, and how al Qaeda hoped to execute it. This critical intelligence helped other allies capture the ringleaders and other known operatives who had been recruited for this plot. The West Coast plot had been thwarted.

http://waterboarding.org/success_story

Which aspects of this plot could Khalid Shaikh Mohammed's waterboarding have revealed?

* We learned about Al Qaeda's interest in flying planes into buildings on September 11, 2001.

* We knew about Al Qaeda's use of shoe bombs from Richard Reid, captured in December 22, 2001.

* We knew about Jemaah Islamiyah at least since the Bali Bomb attack on October 12, 2002.

* The "key al Qaeda operative" and pilot for the plot, Zaini Zakari, was arrested by Malaysian authorities in December 2002.

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was captured in Rawalpindi, Pakistan on March 1, 2003 — after the plot was discovered, after the plot was "derailed", after the pilot of the plane was captured. Khaled Sheikh Mohammed could not have "provided valuable information and saved lives" when all aspects of the plot were well-known and the attack had been foiled prior to his capture.

- Ibid

The victim will lose consciousness by any one or all of the following: blocking of the carotid arteries (depriving the brain of oxygen), blocking of the jugular veins (preventing deoxygenated blood from exiting the brain) and closing off the airway, causing the victim to be unable to breath. Only 11 pounds of pressure placed on both carotid arteries for 10 seconds is necessary to cause unconsciousness. However, if pressure is released immediately, consciousness will be regained within 10 seconds. After 50 seconds of continuous oxygen deprivation, the victim rarely recovers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard
.php?az=view_all&address=389x2462592

DESCRIPTION: Specifically, anoxia is a condition in which there is an absence of oxygen supply to an organ's tissues although there is adequate blood flow to the tissue. Hypoxia is a condition in which there is a decrease of oxygen to the tissue in spite of adequate blood flow to the tissue. Anoxia and hypoxia, however, are often used interchangeably--without regard to their specific meanings--to describe a condition that occurs in an organ when there is a diminished supply of oxygen to the organ's tissues.

PROGNOSIS: If the patient's respiratory and cardiovascular systems can be supported properly, recovery may occur, but depends upon the severity of injury. As recovery proceeds, a variety of psychological and neurological abnormalities may appear, persist for a time, and then disappear. Mental changes such as dementia or a psychosis may occur. Mental confusion, personality regression, parietal lobe syndromes, amnesia, hallucinations, and memory loss may also occur.

http://www.neuroskills.com/anoxia.shtml

apnœa is a technical term for suspension of external breathing.

Apnea of more than approximately one minute's duration therefore leads to severe lack of oxygen in the blood circulation. Permanent brain damage can occur after as little as three minutes and death will inevitably ensue after a few more minutes unless ventilation is restored.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apnea

and.....feel free to say that the Assistant Secretary of Defense is not
a credible source, I'm waiting for that one, which would be a joke
by the way.

War crimes prosecution

On 10 November 2006, the German Federal Government announced that it had decided, within the legal framework of universal jurisdiction, to permit the war crimes prosecution of Stephen A. Cambone for his alleged role in condoning the abuse of prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison during his tenure from 2001 to 2003 as U.S. Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence.

However, on 27 April 2007, the German federal prosecutor announced the government would not pursue charges against Cambone, Rumsfeld and 10 other U.S. officials, stating the accusations did not apply to German law, in part because there was insufficient evidence that the alleged acts occurred on German soil, nor did the accused live in Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Cambone

Transcript : Taguba, Cambone on Abu Ghraib Report

CAMBONE: The Iraqi detainees are human beings, they were in U.S. custody, we had an obligation to treat them right, and we didn't do that. That was wrong. And I associate myself without reservation to the sentiments expressed by the secretary.

To those Iraqis mistreated by the U.S. armed forces, I offer my deepest apology. It was un-American and it was inconsistent with the values of our nation.

CAMBONE: As Major General Miller, who is now in charge of detainee operations in Iraq, remarked on Saturday, the procedures established for interrogations in Iraq were sanctioned under the Geneva Convention and authorized in U.S. Army manuals.

All permissible interrogation activities were within the requirements and boundaries of applicable provisions of the convention. We are currently investigating why soldiers -- some soldiers at Abu Ghraib did not abide by those understood procedures and guidance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17812-2004May11.html

As a May 12 Washington Post editorial points out, Cambone's office approved interrogation practices that are in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040531/vest

It now turns out that Boykin, the Islamophobe, played a central role in the torture scandal now gripping the Bush administration. Last summer, Boykin briefed Cambone on a list of no-holds-barred interrogation methods that he thought should be used to extract more information from Iraqi detainees.

These included humiliation, sleep deprivation, restraint, water torture, religious taunting, light deprivation, and other techniques of torture that have since come to light. A few weeks after this crucial meeting in June, Cambone sent General Miller to Iraq with instructions to oversee the implementation of the Boykin interrogation plan in order to "rapidly exploit internees for actionable intelligence". According to Lt. General Antonio Taguba, who investigated the abuses at Abu Ghraib, Miller then instructed the Military Police to become "actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of internees". The grim trio of Cambone, Boykin and Miller also conspired to put the control of the detention facilities in Iraq under the tactical control of military intelligence. At Abu Ghraib, the job fell to Col. Thomas M. Pappas, commander of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, a move that Lt. General Taguba called contrary to established military doctrine.

It now seems likely that Cambone was only the one to invite Israeli advice (and perhaps interrogators) on how to extract information from Iraqi detainees. Before the Abu Ghraib scandal broke, Cambone freely admitted to the Washington Times that he was taking advice from the Israelis and sharing intelligence with them on the mechanics of occupation and interrogation. "Those who have to deal with like problems tend to share information as best they can".

http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair02072006.html

The orders to soften up Iraqi prisoners for intelligence interrogators (both military and private contractors) are said to have come directly from Cambone's office. In a 2006 Counterpunch article, Jeffrey St. Clair reported that Cambone is responsible for intelligence operations like Gray Fox, a kind of sabotage and assassination squad. Several sources report that Cambone has become so hated and feared inside the Pentagon as Rumsfeld's hatchetman that one general told the Army Times: 'If I had one round left in my revolver, I would take out Stephen Cambone.' " . In early December 2006 it was announced that Dr. Cambone would step down at the end of that year, becoming the first key department member to leave in the wake of Rumsfeld's resignation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Cambone

Cambone graduated from Catholic University in 1973 with a B.A. degree in Political Science, from the Claremont Graduate School in 1977 with an M.A. degree in Political Science, and from the Claremont Graduate School in 1982 with a Ph.D. in Political Science. His numerous awards include the Secretary of Defense Award for Outstanding Service in 1993 and the Employee of the Year Award with SRS Technologies (Washington Operations) in 1988.

Cambone was the Staff Director for the Commission to Assess United States National Security Space Management and Organization from July 2000 to January 2001. He was the Director of Research at the Institute for National Strategic Studies, National Defense University from August 1998 to July 2000. Before that he was the Staff Director for the Commission to Assess the Ballistic Missile Threat to the United States from January 1998 to July 1998; a Senior Fellow in Political-Military Studies at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) from 1993 to 1998; the Director for Strategic Defense Policy in the Office of the Secretary of Defense from 1990 to 1993; the Deputy Director, Strategic Analysis, SRS Technologies (Washington Operations) from 1986 to 1990; and a Staff Member in the Office of the Director, Los Alamos National Laboratory from 1982 to 1986. ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Cambone

Why would anyone continue to use an interrogation method that "they" claim has proven unreliable or at least less reliable than the "Pretty Please" method? The argument that it doesn't work is nonsensical.

Where do you get the time to respond to everyone?

Trying to lump me with with people who advocate going further than myself doesnt particuliarly say anything about me. On the flip side of the coin- those who do not support any degree of waterboarding, do not necessarily agree with your position with regard to solitrary confinment. The people who participate on here are spread across a spectrum rather than two camps.

The individual in the interview didnt decribe it in incredible detail but he did state that no water entered the throat (this was on th CNN video interview. You still may be able to find it on the CNN website

I think it's dangerous to blur that line between course of interrogation and torture. I think it ultimately makes us less safe in the world, and not more safe.

The interrogators I have spoken to say that you get better information and better cooperation through interrogation techniques that are not torture.

If in fact it's true that they water-boarded him {KSM} once and then he started talking and provided reliable information, then he falls under the category of the small minority of people on whom it works. But torture seldom works. Most people start talking...to get the pain to stop

But in many cases, the harsh intelligence techniques led to questionable confessions and downright lies, say officers with firsthand knowledge of the program. That included statements that al Qaeda was building dirty bombs.

I would like to add that if anyone is using emotion, it is the camp tht is totally against it.

You know if I truely believed that terrorists would stop drilling holes in people or beheading them if we stopped waterboarding- then Id be against it (not on moral grounds but for practical reasons)