|
|
|
|
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 7:19:15 AM |
Here's a simple question for all those supporting torture. . . and here are some equally simple answers…..
Why can't we torture murder suspects in this country? Because most murder suspects in the US aren’t affiliated with known terrorist organizations.
If we torture them, they will admit their crimes right? Probably
Then we can convict them! But, oh, the courth throws out their testimony don't they. I wonder why? Beause people being tortured do not tell the truth, they tell you what ever they think you want to hear. OR…. Perhaps it’s because the legal system treats those not yet convicted of crimes in the US as innocent. You’re under the misguided notion that the US Constitution has a global application. It does not apply to non-US citizens on foreign soil, nor does it apply to enemy combatants.
Let's say Bush is torturing you . . . He wants you to admit he's smart. . . You cave and tell him he is the smartest person you've ever met. Does that make him smart? Heck, it doesn't even make him smarter than a fifth grader! Ya know, it would seem you want to have it both ways… some days your posts proclaim him to be the dumbest, most simple minded man on planet earth, and others he’s the most evil manipulative and diabolical politician that ever existed, able to dupe the best and the brightest of your representatives at will… Can ya pick one position on the matter and stick with it?
1) torture is not an effective means of gathering intelligence.
Based on your opinion.
2) it is ALWAYS wrong and immoral. Wait a second… I thought it was only Conservatives who tried to impose their brand of morality on the masses….
 | |
|
| |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 7:37:28 AM |
No, conservatives are hardly moral. Greed, power, hate, torture, those are hardly "family values!"
That's a pretty broad brush.... it could just as accurately be used to paint liberals, but then again we're back to an opinion, not facts.
*No opinions were misrepresented as fact in the presentation of this post.
| |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 7:49:59 AM | No, it is a fact that torture is immoral.
It is a fact that many conservatives that condone torture.
thus; many conservatives are immoral.
It is a fact that conservatives prefer to save a few tax dollars, rather tham make sure that 19 year olds don't die becasue they can't afford a liver transplant.
Thus; conservatives value their wallet, more than the life of a child. (too bad she wasn't an unborn fetus, then there would have been a groundswell of support to save her from the right. They want to keep Schivo alive, who is brain dead, but let a 19 year old die. I just can't understand the ignorance, greed and lack of compassion on the right. Republicans use to stand for something.
Now it is Christmas, yet I hear no oone on the right who is a Christian. Christ would not condone greed. He would not condone torture. I believe that he had it right, not the evil on the right.
America should be better than that. You should be better than that! | |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 8:47:39 AM | No, it is a fact that torture is immoral. No, it isn't a fact, it's an opinion based on your moral standards. You do not set the bar for morality for anyone other than yourself.
It is a fact that many conservatives that condone torture. Agreed, it is also a fact that many liberals condone torture.
thus; many conservatives are immoral. And it is equally factual that many liberals are immoral (based on your standards of morality)
It is a fact that conservatives prefer to save a few tax dollars, rather tham make sure that 19 year olds don't die becasue they can't afford a liver transplant. I have no idea how you got there, it was her insurance company (CIGNA) that delayed the approval of the transplant, not a national consensus of conservatives regarding the health care of young women with Leukemia. By all means keep blaming everything on the administration, the Chicken Little approach combined with constant cry of WOLF seems to be working so very well to improve the credibility of your position.
Thus; conservatives value their wallet, more than the life of a child. (too bad she wasn't an unborn fetus, then there would have been a groundswell of support to save her from the right. How much did you contribute to funding her transplant? Does anyone else smell the hypocrisy cooking?
They want to keep Schivo alive, who is brain dead, There are some things about Miss Schiavo that you apparently aren't aware of.... her death was not a matter of simply pulling a plug followed by immediate expiration, they removed a feeding tube and starved her to death over a two week period. I'd equate it to allowing anyone incapable of feeding themselves to starve to death, such as an infant, a quadriplegic, a victim of Alzheimer’s, or Parkinson’s, etc... While I do agree it was her husband’s decision to make, facts should be known before an opinion as to what is right or wrong is formulated.
but let a 19 year old die. I just can't understand the ignorance, greed and lack of compassion on the right. Republicans use to stand for something. I think you applied the word ignorance to the wrong side of the issue... it wasn't "Republicans" who delayed the approval, it was CIGNA. In this case, it would seem that "Republicans" (me) seem to stand for arresting the perpetuation of ignorance.
Now it is Christmas, yet I hear no oone on the right who is a Christian. Christ would not condone greed. He would not condone torture. I believe that he had it right, not the evil on the right. Now I'm really puzzled... in another thread you insist that religion, SPECIFICALLY Christianity, has no place in government or society, now you want all republicans to be more Christ-like?
America should be better than that. You should be better than that! I am better than that, and I exhibit that behavior everyday by not making false accusations against a particular group of people in order to garner support for my personal perspective.
| |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 9:00:23 AM | If you are offended, then you know you are wrong.
WE prosecuted those who tortured our soldiers as WAR CRIMINALS. Do you not understand that that MEANS Torture is a Crime even in times of war.
DAMN! I can't believe how ignorant the right wing has become. Republicans use to stand for something, now it seems they fall for anything.
The right wing seem to believe that they are Christians. That is why I brought it up. However, name one, just one, who acutally ACTS like a Christian?
Liberals are NOT against people having beliefs, we believe everyone should have a RIGHT to THEIR beliefs. We just don't want the government dictating whom you pray to. That should be personal.
But, if you call yourself a Christian, then act like one. Show some compassion.
Torture doesn't work, EVER. You are being LIED to. Name one terrorist that has been arrested because we caught them by torturing someone? Name one. Just one.
It is so easy to spread the lies of the right, they stay on topic well. But you are being lied to. | |
|
edisto
|
Joined: 9/11/2007
Msg: 382 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 9:10:46 AM | no one can “prove” that torture is wrong, just like no one can prove there is a God
so we ask, does it work?
it may…
but if we shoot a robber, he wouldn’t rob again, if we shoot a rapist, he wouldn’t rape again, but in America, it’s not allowed, but it would be effective
Saudi Arabia beheads and stones rapist, drug traffickers, armed robbers and women who don’t follow the dress code or who are the victim of rape, in America we condemn their mode of punishment, because of its severity, but again, it is effective
to say something “works” does not prove ANYTHING if the morality of the action is the real issue
the moral dilemma is not IF it works, it’s should we, as a nation legitimize torture
imho, waterboarding is comparable to Saudi Arabia beheading and stoning, all possibly effective, but all morally despicable
legalize torture, no, never! | |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 9:17:20 AM | Montreal: And, to use the famous example, what if "the clock is ticking....?"
If all other reasonable means are exhausted- then what other options do we have than to waterboard, even though it poses a risk of losing that short term memory? All because a method is not always 100 percent effective 100 percent of the time, we do not declare it to ineffective based on the fact that it is not perfect.
Montreal: The greatest propaganda threat is when a nation that stands for justice, rights, and democracy crosses the line and tortures ANYONE. Again, I find this like the "40 second" argument. A little is good, a lot is immoral ?
Time and application are certainly standards in he differentiate crime from non-crime. Like I cited earlier, if you leave a six year old child alone in the room for a moment and he bumps his head its an accident. Now if you were gone for several hourse we call this neglect. Your standard seems to be that terrorists cannot be incovienced to any degree.
As for the propaganda piece your entirely off base. Propaganda is within its own right an attempt to frame a subject in a particiculiar light. So in this regard even if the United States had/does not interroage using torture (extreme waterboarding), it doesnt matter, because propaganda gives the impression that it is happening nonetheless.
Montreal: In the case of Nance, he's probably one of the most valid witnesses to the actual method used by the CIA.
Again, we do not know WHY these people believe in WHAT they do. We know their positions, and they do expound to some degree, but we are not privy to their experience. If forceful methods are all that they have been a part of without restrictions and guidlines, then their views are limited to such. | |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 9:36:30 AM |
Your standard seems to be that terrorists cannot be incovienced to any degree.
Not at all.
Tried and justly convicted of a crime worthy of a death sentence, and go ahead and shoot them by firing squad. I personally am not for the application of the death penalty, but you would not see me protesting their fate whatsoever in this case.
Like spies in war, this can be done quite easily - and legally.
But to torture them, or anyone ? No , again I cannot accept it for not only ethical reasons, but also because every single source I've quoted says it doesn't work as well as the alternative.
Again, we do not know WHY these people believe in WHAT they do.
Well, in the case of Nance, we do know....because that's the entire point of his speaking out. It's based on exceptionally valid experience, exactly matching the discussion at hand. Decades of experience, with exactly the type of people were are discussing, and using a method he is totally familiar with, has experienced himself, and has trained others in to assist them if captured.
If we take all those interrogation experts, from all over the world, and with experience in interrogating various cultures ( including Americans) we see a common thread developing in ALL of them. That would certainly suggest to me that what they are saying is quite valid, simply because a modern day interrogator in America , and a Nazi interrogator in WW2 Germany arrived at exactly the same success - using the same principles of interrogation.
That's a pretty clear sign it's a universal concept with some weight.
If all other reasonable means are exhausted...
As I said, what if it's an eight year old child....or a woman ? That same threat is there, and it's not going away. That clock is ticking Merc4aGoodCause, innocent Americans are going to die.....you can't lose any more time.
Are you going to tell me you'd torture that kid, or woman ? Are you going to take that little kid's hand, and smash every bone in it one by one ... and then go on to the next.
Say they keep silent, until they die.
(American troops did exactly that in WW2, and Vietnam. Others have, too. )
Say they lied to you to get you to stop, and the bomb goes off anyway. You've lost on both sides of the issue.
Say you were wrong, and they really knew nothing about it, and were framed by someone else.
Let's say that when that story leaks out a thousand others join the cause in anger.
These are the things at stake here. | |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 9:45:55 AM |
If you are offended, then you know you are wrong. I'm not offended at all by blatant hypocrisy, in fact I find a great deal of humor in exposing it.
WE prosecuted those who tortured our soldiers as WAR CRIMINALS. Do you not understand that that MEANS Torture is a Crime even in times of war. I understand, clearly you do not. Soldiers are not the same as terrorists. Soldiers are uniformed combatants representing a government, terrorists are not.
DAMN! I can't believe how ignorant the right wing has become. Republicans use to stand for something, now it seems they fall for anything. Well, we're not falling for this.... Know anymore country songs that you can quote lyrics to?
The right wing seem to believe that they are Christians. That is why I brought it up. However, name one, just one, who acutally ACTS like a Christian? Again with the Christianity… You know, there are a lot of conservatives who are Jews, should they abandon their religious beliefs so that you are happy? I can actually name quite a few conservative public figures that I think exhibit the epitome of Christian behavior, but since you only asked for one ... Billy Graham. No, he isn't a republican, but I don't think anyone cognizant of the difference between liberals and conservatives would classify him as anything other than a conservative.
Liberals are NOT against people having beliefs, we believe everyone should have a RIGHT to THEIR beliefs. We just don't want the government dictating whom you pray to. That should be personal. I agree, but that wasn't the subject of your post, it was why conservatives weren't demonstrating what you feel to be an adequate amount of Christ like behavior, which as I pointed out is in stark contrast to your posts in other threads. Not all Conservatives are Christians any more than all Liberals are Atheists.
But, if you call yourself a Christian, then act like one. Show some compassion. I didn't... some seem to think I do, but since I don’t necessarily strive to be Christ-like in my every deed I think it would be hypocritical to call myself one … and, I do....
Torture doesn't work, EVER. You are being LIED to. Name one terrorist that has been arrested because we caught them by torturing someone? Name one. Just one. You're asking me to divulge classified information? Clearly you have a very high opinion of me if you think I would be privy to that sort of information. Take a deep breath and think logically, if torture didn’t work, why is it still used? Is it your position that its purpose is not as an interrogation tactic, but rather personal sadistic pleasure?
It is so easy to spread the lies of the right, they stay on topic well. But you are being lied to. We know we are, by the left apparently.... we just don't drink your flavor of Kool-Aid exclusively, and clearly you do.
| |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 9:48:59 AM | waterboarding seems kinda lame if you think about it. With the Patriot Act being use to invade our personal lives, spying on our e-mail and cell phones, billion dollar spy satellites and increase of the spy budget and the ONLY way they can obtain info is through torture is suggests that our other info gathering methods need to be reviewed.
torture doesn't really make the info 100% correct anyway. Besides if we spend billions of $$$$$ and the only way we can obtain info is by using a bucket of water, we should limit their budgets. | |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 9:51:46 AM | I think you are a terrorist. We should torture you, then you will confess and prove torture works.
That is your logic!
You are ignorant! You are destroying the values of America. You are what is wrong with America! | |
|
Nona37
|
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 388 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 10:07:52 AM | "Then submit them for review, not just by me....but everyone here."
Why would I want to re copy and paste things that are already within
this thread? One good example was the article stating that Germany
of all people wanted to press charges on Cambone, they could NOT
press charges on Cambone for obvious reasons, therefore, in that
instance, it would have been nice to view something more pertinent
to the topic at hand, for it's obvious German authorities can not
prosecute anyone here in the states due to alleged crimes which occur
within the states, therefore, I feel that source was a waste to read,
no offense intended here.
"Actually, you've supplied none..... "
Actually yes I did, but you fail to mention or acknowledge it, as
usual. In reference to name calling, I have not engaged in that with
you Montreal Guy, for I find that more times to none you and I
can find middle ground, have I utilized ad hominems to others? Yes
I have, and before you try to speak to me in reference of ad hominems,
I suggest you speak to your little followers, for they are notrocious
for it, therefore, touche'.
"Hard to do when all the experts mentioned here say there IS no
valid point to torture, and actually argue exactly
(and indisputably) against it on ethical and even tactical grounds."
Yes, the quote experts have opinions, but the fact of the matter is
if they represented the MAJORITY, torture would not still be utilized.
"So morality is only valid if you are not endangered, and
immorality is allowed if lives can be saved ? Sorry, but that's
an emotional response. Morality exists in an of itself, separate
from any influencing factors. We can see that clearly expressed
under international law:"
Yes, in my eyes, the immoral act of torture SHOULD be performed if
lives are at stake, where I find the acts immoral, I support these
procedures to save lives, and what is more immoral here? The actual
act of torture? Or the possibility of not utilizing torture and
innocent lives being lost? I find the later to be more immoral on the
scale of immorality.
"No, conservatives are hardly moral. Greed, power, hate, torture,
those are hardly "family values!"
This thread is not about family values, it's about techniques of
torture.
"No, it is a fact that torture is immoral."
I agree with you there but from my own personal belief, but you are incorrect
stating that is is a fact that torture is immoral as a whole, for everyone's
moral values are different, you can't speak for all mankind.
"It is a fact that many conservatives that condone torture."
I'm a libertarian and I support torture, we are such dirty snakes!!! lol
"Torture doesn't work, EVER. You are being LIED to. Name one terrorist that has been arrested because we caught them by torturing someone? Name one. Just one."
ok, how bout Jose Padilla who was captured after he was given up by Zubaydah. And how about Zubaydah who was waterboarded and after claiming that "Allah" came to his cell during the night and told him to cooperate due to his cooperation would make things easier on the other brothers who had been captured, and after this, he
answered every question. The Agent who tortured him was CIA Agent John
Kiriakou. Since this situation, this same agent has declared that
waterboarding is wrong, but he does not dispute that it worked with
this particular terrorist. You asked for just one, so there ya go.
"torture doesn't really make the info 100% correct anyway. Besides if we spend billions of $$$$$ and the only way we can obtain info is by using a bucket of water, we should limit their budgets."
Sorry,,that was funny literally, not being sarcastic lol
"You are ignorant! You are destroying the values of America. You are what is wrong with America!"
Umm the same thing could be said of religious fanatics such as you :) | |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 10:18:12 AM |
I think you are a terrorist. We should torture you, then you will confess and prove torture works.
That is your logic!
You are ignorant! You are destroying the values of America. You are what is wrong with America!
cant you come up with anything better then that?
Sorry,,that was funny literally, not being sarcastic lol
Thank you, it was meant to be funny. | |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 10:25:44 AM |
The Agent who tortured him was CIA Agent John
Kiriakou.
Wrong! He wasn't there....he was told ...it's been posted several times....including the very first post! | |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 10:25:53 AM | I've never been called a religious fanatic before. Too funny!
Nona;
Torture is always wrong, always evil. There is no middle ground.
Your mentality is the exact same thing that allowed such great things as slavery and genocide. Hitler, Stalin, slaveholders, crusaders, even those feeding Christians to the Lions in Rome had supporters. Does that make any of those thing even slightly moral?
You are wrong, there is no middle ground. History will judge you in the same light that those who condoned the genocide of Hitler or the enslavement of a race by early Americans. Your name will be forgotten, but your ignorance won't be. | |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 10:30:48 AM |
1) torture is not an effective means of gathering intelligence.
True, but so what? As has been pointed out repeatedly, it *sometimes* works but *usually* does not. That's true of most things.
The real issue is: do you keep it as one option among many, or do you abandon it unilaterally?
By analogy, should doctors ban the option of risky treatments that fail more than they succeed? | |
|
| |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 10:50:18 AM | This thread has lasted 16 pages, what do we have to show for it?
1.Torture works sometimes in the opinion of most "experts" on this thread.
2. In the opinion of most experts conventional methods are more effective.
3. In the opinion of those who are against torture, torture is immoral.
4.Water-boarding is torture.
5. "Chritians" should act like Christ.
6. According to this thread Opinion=Fact.(if the person offering it is an alleged expert)
7.Most who are not against torture concede most of these points.
8. Those who opposed torture state that torture simply does not work to strengthen their morally based position.
9.experts who support the effecacy of torture are not vocal about their beliefs given the social climate.
10.many of those opposed to torture classify terrorists as POW's and think that they should be entitled to the protection offered by the Geneva Convention.
11. Many who are not opposed to torture of terrorists think that terrorists shoud not be Covered by the Geneva Convention. Because they usually are not part of a recognized army and dont represent a specific Country.
12.many who are against the use of torture of terrorists can not seperate terrorism from the War in Iraq.
13. Most who are against torture are influenced by their hate of Bush and the present administration.
14. those who are against torture of terrorists because of moral reasons on this thread have shown themselves to be more judgemental and more willing to spew venom at those who oppose their position.
15. Morality is not as easily defined as those who are against torture would like us to believe. Are all things that are considered "immoral", "immoral" in every situation or circumstance.Do all people in the World agree on what constitutes "Moral" behaviour?
I've never been called a religious fanatic before. Too funny! Wow! really?
| |
|
Nona37
|
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 395 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 10:54:04 AM | "The Agent who tortured him was CIA Agent John
Kiriakou.
Wrong! He wasn't there....he was told ...it's been posted several
times....including the very first post!"
I will find the link to the source I read, give me a few, I didn't
bookmark the page. I tried to find it, UGH,,,
"Nona;
Torture is always wrong, always evil. There is no middle ground.
Your mentality is the exact same thing that allowed such great
things as slavery and genocide. Hitler, Stalin, slaveholders,
crusaders, even those feeding Christians to the Lions in Rome had
supporters. Does that make any of those thing even slightly moral?"
Since you are on your soapbox mr religion, you better examine religion
as a whole, for religion universally has violent histories, read
about the crusades how the Christians time and time again tried
to shove their belief's down the throats of Muslims, and by the way,
the Muslims did not stand for it and basically won in battle each
and every time except once, therefore, where you say that I represent
immorality, well, just the fact of you being religious in my eyes is immoral,
for organized religion is responsible for many murders and world wide
violence, so tell me how you belonging to organized religion can
stand on a soapbox and preach about immorality, it's basically, "the
pot calling the kettle black" and this is why you will not be taken
seriously in your stance, at least not by me.
"I've never been called a religious fanatic before. Too funny!"
Somehow I find that hard to believe. | |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 10:59:36 AM | Yeah, really, that was a first.
I am a Christian, but I don't like organized religion.
I don't care what religion or lack thereof for anyone.
I don't, however, believe that the religious right are really Christians.
However, when it comes to torture, there is no middle ground. It is evil. Because anyone, or even if everyone belived it was OK, it still isn't.
Slavery has existed for all of human history. It still exists today. So, there are people in this world that think slavery is acceptable on moral grounds. They are wrong, as is anyone who condones torture. | |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 11:14:05 AM | Ex
I think you are a terrorist. We should torture you, then you will confess and prove torture works.
That is your logic! Let's see if I follow what you classify as "my" logic. I am amenable to giving the CIA special latitude to conduct harsh or "enhanced" interrogations of terrorists, and recognize the Presidents authority to do so and that makes me a terrorist?
You are ignorant! You are destroying the values of America. You are what is wrong with America! We're all entitled to our opinions, and in my humble one, you are far more of a danger to the preservation of human liberty than anything I have ever done or my moral fiber will allow me to do. Have you not noticed that your posts seem specifically designed to eliminate discussion, while mine simply point out the flaws and the apparent absence of common sense in the presentation of yours? Encouraging intelligent discourse is the keystone of liberty, stifling opposition is the keystone of fascism, and you compare our perspective to Nazi Germany and Hitler?
Torture is always wrong, always evil. There is no middle ground. Yavol, mein heir! Forgive me for having an opposing opinion of the issue.
Your mentality is the exact same thing that allowed such great things as slavery and genocide. Thank you for comparing us to Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Monroe and the other founding fathers..... Although I have to admit I'm not crazy about the comparison to Clinton.
Hitler, Stalin, slaveholders, crusaders, even those feeding Christians to the Lions in Rome had supporters. Does that make any of those thing even slightly moral?
It's not any more or less of an indication that your opinion on this issue is even "slightly moral". I did find humor in your comparison of the historic atrocities of Nazi’s and Jews, seems as though you hold contempt for just about everyone who doesn’t share your views
You are wrong, there is no middle ground. History will judge you in the same light that those who condoned the genocide of Hitler or the enslavement of a race by early Americans. You name will be forgotten, but your ignorance won't be. Now you have the ability to see into the future? What a terrible burden it must be to have to establish acceptable morality, champion the "rights" of terrorists AND tote that crystal ball around.
I appreciate your position, honest I do. I just see the matter as being the lesser of two evils; I can endure the guilt of a terrorist’s temporary discomfort on my conscience much easier than I can swallow sitting idly with my apathy intact, potentially contributing to the death of innocents, merely to justify a false presumption of moral superiority.
| |
|
Nona37
|
Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 398 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 11:14:53 AM | "I am a Christian, but I don't like organized religion."
Hmmm you claim to be christian meaning christianity is part of a
religious affiliation, therefore, you are subconsciously belonging
to "organized religion", if you were truly not religious, you would
claim NO affialiation. Just to let you know.
"However, when it comes to torture, there is no middle ground"
I don't believe middle ground is being sought here, even when two
people can sit and say that torture is immoral, it's one side or the
other on this, and I for one while stating torture is immoral, I
still support torture techniques, for what I would find immoral is
incompetent interrogations where innocent lives are lost.
"Slavery has existed for all of human history. It still exists
today. So, there are people in this world that think slavery is
acceptable on moral grounds."
Yes, these people are called moral relativists. In their minds they
are right, and you can not say THEY are wrong, due to the fact, in
their minds they are right, I must say, I do agree with you on the
grounds of slavery being wrong, for I'm a universalist, I believe in
sat ethical standards, but when one is interrogating a known terrorist
to save human lives, morals has nothing to do with this picture and
SHOULD be discarded temporarily, it's about saving innocent lives, not
morals. | |
|
edisto
|
Joined: 9/11/2007
Msg: 399 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 12:21:17 PM | logically, to know as a country, that torture is immoral then rationalize its use makes our country immoral, that is why this administration is so hell bent to NOT define waterboarding as torture, but if they do, then they CAN"T sanction it, all of you saying it is immoral but should be used, the government will not be able to do this
those who condone immoral acts are themselves immoral even IF they can rationalize that evil will bring about good, an individual may have the ability to do this, but again not a country
the individual that can condone waterboarding is the same individual that could condone the My Lai Massacre, Haditha and Abu Ghraib, none of these were condoned by our government either, because America does not condone those things it finds immoral, the only way that our government can allow waterboarding is to define it as not being torture, so if they ask all of you waterboard enthusiasts your views, make sure you tell them it is indeed torture | |
|
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 1:00:44 PM |
"The Agent who tortured him was CIA Agent John
Kiriakou.
Wrong! He wasn't there....he was told ...it's been posted several
times....including the very first post!"
John Kiriakou was on the team that interrogated al Qaeda capo Abu Zubaydah. Kiriakou says that he did not waterboard Zubaydah but did question him.
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/12/12/video-ex-cia-agent
-john-kiriakou-says-waterboarding-saved-lives/
"al Qaeda Capo " ? I think someone's been watching too many Soprano's episodes. 
He told ABC News that Abu Zubaida was being defiant and uncooperative mid summer 2002 when he was tied down on a board, his nose and mouth wrapped cellophane to stop him breathing while water was forced down his throat. As the terrified detainee struggled for air water poured into his lungs and he broke down in about 35 seconds.
Mr Kiriakou said he was carefully briefed on what had happened.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article3244719.ece
( Btw, as I understand the procedure, water would never "pour into his lungs" as the head is lowered to prevent exactly that from occurring. The risk of water damaging the lungs would be too great, hence the reason for that procedure. ) | |
|
|
| Page 16 of 41
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41 |
|
Home
login 
