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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 1:21:12 PM | ............we waterboard to save AMERICAN lives. why should the government even tell us what they are doing? i dont want to know, just bring our boys and girls home safe......geez we would have lost ww2 if we had to publicize everything we do.
.............latest news is american military forces have uncovered an al queda torture chamber with the most gruesome of indications and devices. what was someone saying about "immoral?" | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 1:48:10 PM |
latest news is american military forces have uncovered an al queda torture chamber
Hey, according to some people ......it's HIGHLY effective.  | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 2:03:48 PM |
...........we waterboard to save AMERICAN lives. why should the government even tell us what they are doing?
any proof of this claim? Why? Because the government works for us, not the other way around
.latest news is american military forces have uncovered an al queda torture chamber with the most gruesome of indications and devices. what was someone saying about "immoral?"
and proof to back this up? | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 2:27:58 PM |
logically, to know as a country, that torture is immoral then rationalize its use makes our country immoral, that is why this administration is so hell bent to NOT define waterboarding as torture, but if they do, then they CAN"T sanction it, all of you saying it is immoral but should be used, the government will not be able to do this That could very well be, but the discriminating parsing of words didn't start with this administration, it's something that has existed since the dawn of the legal profession, granted one of the more famous examples is the recent existential debate over the word “is”, but that is merely an example of the language manipulation, not the sole example .
I think at first blush everyone would agree that killing someone during the commission of a violent crime such as robbery is wrong and stringent punishment is warranted. But what if it is the victim of the violent crime, who kills the perpetrator, is it still wrong? The same cessation of a life occurred; do we not make a moral judgment at that point in determining which of the participant’s lives has more value?
those who condone immoral acts are themselves immoral even IF they can rationalize that evil will bring about good, an individual may have the ability to do this, but again not a country A decent philosophical vantage, but what constitutes a "country"? Merely the existence of defined sovereign boundaries or, the individuals that comprise its citizenry? When faced with a dilemma of this import, it is human nature to choose the perceived lesser of two evils, and morality plays little if no part in the equation.
the individual that can condone waterboarding is the same individual that could condone the My Lai Massacre, Haditha and Abu Ghraib, none of these were condoned by our government either, because America does not condone those things it finds immoral, the only way that our government can allow waterboarding is to define it as not being torture, so if they ask all of you waterboard enthusiasts your views, make sure you tell them it is indeed torture This a far deeper well in which you have dipped your bucket... Torturing for sadistic pleasure as seems to be the case for Abu Ghraib, Haditha, and to a lesser extent even Gitmo, while utilizing methods of temporary discomfort for interrogation purposes is vastly different both in concept and application. There is no moral parallel between the two. There are many who claim that prison confinement, i.e.; housing criminals in cells, causes undue stress and discomfort. Are we to release the inmates under that guise of a universal application of morality? Is it moral or amoral to favor the comforts of criminals at the expense of the safety of the innocent? At what level of imposed discomfort are we as a nation to set the bar of acceptance, 30 seconds, 2 minutes, 25 years to life?
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 405 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 2:33:54 PM | Wrong! He wasn't there....he was told ...it's been posted several
times....including the very first post!"
I can not find the page I found it on, nonetheless, in the meanwhile,
regardless IF he was there or not, the procedure worked and vital
information was gained, you fail to mention that.
"those who condone immoral acts are themselves immoral even IF
they can rationalize that evil will bring about good, an
individual may have the ability to do this, but again not a
country"
Wow, now I feel bad,,ok,,,I really don't, nonetheless, I could care less
if anyone thinks torturing a prisoner to gain vital information to
save lives is immoral, in fact, I find it immoral the attitude on
this thread, it's all about love thy enemy? Excuse me as I laff on that one,
for the terrorist's techniques are far worse, whether they are
effective or not, but as everyone is tending to ignore on this thread,
even if not 100% effective, torture does work.
"the individual that can condone waterboarding is the same
individual that could condone the My Lai Massacre, Haditha and
Abu Ghraib,"
I will say you are wrong on this statement, if I wanted to retaliate,
I can say people such as yourself burn our nation's flag, you spat on
our soldiers as they came back from Vietnam and you support a peace
movement that never aided in anything except for the sale of marijuana and
flowers and oh yeah, candles, not to mention more than likely making the song "kumbaya" number one on the nation's top hits chart.
"latest news is american military forces have uncovered an al queda torture chamber with the most gruesome of indications and devices. what was someone saying about "immoral?"
"and proof to back this up?"
The following are links by CNN in reference to torture chambers being found
in Iraq.
This one was in 2003.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/02/sprj.irq.iraq.torture/index.html
This one is recent and found in Newsvine which was taken from the press.
http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2007/12/20/1177436-torture-chamber-found-in-iraq
I'm sure this one will be ignored on this thread as usual, if it's not
a liberals view, it MUST be wrong, well this is reality, whether you
copy and pasters agree or not. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 3:07:26 PM |
The following are links by CNN in reference to torture chambers being found
in Iraq.
This one was in 2003.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/02/sprj.irq.iraq.torture/index.html
This one is recent and found in Newsvine which was taken from the press.
http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2007/12/20/1177436-torture-chamber-found-in-iraq
I'm sure this one will be ignored on this thread as usual, if it's not
a liberals view, it MUST be wrong, well this is reality, whether you
copy and pasters agree or not.
These are Iraqi torture chambers run by Saddam, not Al-Qaeda torture chambers run by Bin Ladan. It's not like I don't believe you, but you are using the wrong information. It's like saying there is no speed limit on the Autobann in German, therefore we should not have a pool at the house.
Al-Qaeda does not equal Iraq.... | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 3:19:02 PM | | It seems that they are Al Queda. Sad that humans resort to such behavior! The Iraqi people can't seem to catch a break. First Saddam, then us, then Al Queda. The ones in the middle of everything, never asked for any of this. | |
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edisto
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Joined: 9/11/2007
Msg: 408 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 3:20:42 PM |
the individual that can condone waterboarding is the same individual that could condone the My Lai Massacre, Haditha and
Abu Ghraib,"
I will say you are wrong on this statement, if I wanted to retaliate, I can say people such as yourself burn our nation's flag, you spat on our soldiers as they came back from Vietnam and you support a peace movement that never aided in anything except for the sale of marijuana and flowers and oh yeah, candles, not to mention more than likely making the song "kumbaya" number one on the nation's top hits chart.
i stick by my statement ~
i do not mind you making the comparison concerning myself, or rather you, not wanting to "retaliate" but doing it anyway...
I did not burn the flag or spit, but I was upset with those men/women who went to VN to fight, I did support the peace movement, not the one you experienced however, the one I was part of helped to end the VN "conflict", I am part of the peace movement now that has put some pressure on this country to at least talk about ending this fiasco, as far as marijuana and flowers, they're okay too, and yes, even candles, oh , and kumbaya still has that "mystical" quality about it...they're all good...
however, the controversy of waterboarding is what the destruction of the CIA tapes is all about, if they were ever released as were the pictures of Abu Ghraib, the world's perception of America would be one more black eye for this country, before you type the words, "who cares about the rest of the world's view of America", let me say, I DO...perception is everything, it is al qaeda's recruiting rhetoric, show Americans torturing and you have hundreds more terrorists/freedom fighters (depending which side of the occupation you're on)...
if the world thought Abu Ghraib showed America at its worse, just imagine what a tape of Americans waterboarding another human being (yes, human being) the affect it would have on the world generally and al gaeda specifically...
if waterboarding is legally proven to be torture, then America cannot use it, those that continued to use it could be accused of criminal actions, again, the destroyed tapes are/were a smoking gun, if waterboarding is legally defined not to be torture, then it will be considered only an "enhanced interrogation technique", but as 18 pages of this forum points out, those who advocate its use are in agreement that it is torture... legally America will be walking a tight rope if it continues to use it and it will become a legal nightmare, it doesn't matter how many American lives people "think" it will or did save, if I have to live in a nation that continues down the path of serial wars then you have to accept that waterboarding will have to be put on the back shelf under the label "not to be used until humans are so impassive that they will accept its use even knowing that it is torture", some of you however, are already there! | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 409 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 3:25:30 PM | You are correct in reference to the first link, which is just an example of the torture chamber found, which was one of many actually, on the last link, the excerpts below are from the article with HUGE claims that the site was an insurgent torture chamber, meaning
terrorists. The assertion by the gentleman who you replied to was indeed that Al Queda had a torture chamber that was found, hence why the last link was placed to support what he said, because what he says is indeed fact. Below are excerpts from the article to support what he said.
claims of insurgent abuses and the silence of frightened Iraqis —
have emerged with increasing frequency and clarity recently as
U.S.-led forces push deeper into former extremist fiefdoms and
forge alliances with tribes seeking to reclaim their regions.
The reports and tips now pouring in build a harrowing portrait
of rule under al-Qaida and its backers: mass graves, ruthless
punishments, self-styled Islamic courts ordering summary
executions.
The captives told U.S. soldiers they had been sentenced to
death by an insurgent court and had the choice of either
beheading or a fatal gunshot. | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 410 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 3:31:25 PM | "I did not burn the flag or spit, but I was upset with those
men/women who went to VN to fight, I did support the peace
movement, not the one you experienced however, the one I was part
of that helped to end the VN "conflict"
The peace movement is NOT responsible for our boys coming back home
from Vietnam, President Nixon was the last president in office to
order all troops back, therefore, it was the President, NOT the peace
movement who enabled this, and the reason our troops were FINALLY ordered
home, is due to losing the war, not because of any diligent act that
the peace movement supposedly peformed. Give me a break.
"kumbaya still has that "mystical" quality about it...they're all good..."
Of course it MUST have mystical quality to it, for this the peace movement's
national anthem lol
"legally America will be walking a tight rope if it continues to use it and it will become a legal nightmare,"
Actually this will not happen unless the courts get involved in a case
by case basis, otherwise, the terrorists are being tortured according
to the rules of war and military tribunals, therefore, as of right now
the US courts are basically sitting with tied hands.
"but I was upset with those
men/women who went to VN to fight,"
Oh, you mean the ones who were drafted and didn't have a choice? Or you mean the ones who didn't run to canada like the cowards they were and are? ummmm ok,,,I"m sure you were not as upset as their wives/families/children were when they more than likely came home in a body bag. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 3:41:39 PM | [latest news is american military forces have uncovered an al queda torture chamber with the most gruesome of indications and devices. what was someone saying about "immoral?"
and proof to back this up? ]
Yep here is an article by the AP on 12/18/2007....
[U.S. soldiers carrying out operations in Diyala also recently found mass graves with a total of 26 bodies next to what the U.S. military described as a torture center.
Blood-splotches on walls, chains hanging from a ceiling and swords on the killing floor - the artifacts left a disturbing tale of brutalities inside a suspected al-Qaida in Iraq torture chamber. But there was yet another chilling fact outside the dirt-floor dungeon. Villagers say they knew about the torment but were too intimidated by extremists to tell authorities until now.]
Thats just part of the Article..... Had the honor today of being with the Patriot Guard welcoming home a true hero, his name is Sgt Nick McCoy of Reading Pa... Sgt McCoy lost both legs to an IED in Iraq... See he and others like him that make the ultimate sacrifice are the real hero's in life, you libs that sit and whine and complain about every little thing especially the liberal males who have stopped being males and have become lil whiney b*tches in life make me sick to my stomache.. Just remember while you sleep all comfy and cozy in your beds tonight some young American is risking his life so you can..... Like I said before waterboaring someone for 30 seconds is nothing compared too what them folks give out..... Too Sgt McCoy and the rest of the brave young American and Canadian Military personal I thank you, for you people know that freedom is not free, just wish more people would realize that, but according too the libs here we should just offer them a box of chocolates and make nicey nice..... | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 3:54:23 PM | No, people like YOU have placed them in harm's way.
They aren't fighting for freedom there, they are occupying so Haliburton can make profit there.
Liberals care about the soldiers, that's why we didn't want them to go in the first place.
In fact, a lot of the soldiers are, egads, Liberals.
It is sad that our heros are coming home broken!
None of this is their fault. They are heros! They continue to do their patriotic duty, despite being placed in such a dark position. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 4:09:47 PM | | Well ask an ordianry Iraqi how they feel about the freedom the finally have ? The fact is we are winning over there people over there are starting too enjoy the freedom they have gained by the sacrifice the young men and women.... And before you say we ain't winning over there how come the Iraqi war is not even an issue too the candidates anymore ? Yes all the dems say they are going too end it, but by the time they get in office it will be over and mission will be accomplished, oh and another thing there exodusi, Iraq has 81 oil wells, and 70 of them are owned by American companies... So for your argument we are there for the Oil and Haliburton has no weight cause we already owned the oil.... | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 4:09:47 PM |
^^^^is morality an option....or do you abandon it unilaterally?
He chose to separate the issue of morality from effectiveness - morality is his point 2, which merits its own discussion. If one wants to abandon the argument that torture should be banned because it is only sometimes effective and rely entirely on morality, then fine. | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 416 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 4:17:18 PM | "No, people like YOU have placed them in harm's way.
They aren't fighting for freedom there, they are occupying so Haliburton can make profit there.
Liberals care about the soldiers, that's why we didn't want them to go in the first place.
In fact, a lot of the soldiers are, egads, Liberals."
Once again I see you are speaking on behalf of soldiers when indeed
you were never one yourself, why do you keep doing this?
"t is sad that our heros are coming home broken!
None of this is their fault. They are heros! They continue to do
their patriotic duty, despite being placed in such a dark
position."
I agree with you on this statement believe it or not.
"repub, "freedom is not free." The soldiers who made the ultimate sacrife didn't do it to make us free, we were already free."
Yes you canadians are free because there were canadian soldiers who
fought for you to be as such!!!! | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 4:22:21 PM | 1) they don't have freedom, they are DEAD! The reason violence has subsided is because Genocide is working!
2) they pump more than TWO MILLION BARRELS of oil EVERY Day. Do you think that comes out of 81 wells?
You must study with Meistro!
Yes, I have sacrificed! I may not have served, but I have more than done my part! I do understand their sacrifice! | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 4:31:04 PM | ...........nona i agree with you in your exasperation with the liberals among us. they would like us to play pattycake with our enemies and give the republic away to the bad guys. so they criticize us at every turn. anything ANYTHING that helps our military effort im all for. we are fighting the most "moral" war in history, bringing our blood and treasure and ultimately leaving the field to the inhabitants hands....what other country does that? does china? russia? ha ha ha.
im predicting a big backlash in the 08 elections.....you have it here on record........where the american people keep in power a "law and order" style administration and possibly even in congress as well. these liberals are in the gay/divorced woman/minority/illegal who could care less minority. they are spouting the (wrong) protestations of a generation ago; it was wrong 40 years ago and its wrong now. the polls are crap, something for the media to report. indeed, americans are sleepwalking, but on election day they will make them selves heard loudly, proudly and unquestionably and the flotsam and jetsam will just blow out to sea, hopefully never to be heard from again. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 4:37:20 PM | You are right about one thing Peter. Dems aren't strong enough. They should have impeached this corrupt administration days after taking office. They wouldn't have been able to remove them, but Dems are afraid of the political backlash. Only Kucinich has the guts to stand up, and the media makes him sound like a kook.
But rest assured, the repubs will be swept from power next fall! The evil regime comes to an End! | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 4:57:50 PM |
No, people like YOU have placed them in harm's way. Actually that's not true, even the most recent Congressional vote on continued funding of the war demonstrates this is not a partisan issue (and never has been) ... at least not INSIDE the beltway. The Congressional record demonstrates a majority of the Democrats voted in favor of continuing to fund the war. There is a difference between what politicians say, and what politicians do, this is not exactly a startling revelation....
They aren't fighting for freedom there, they are occupying so Haliburton can make profit there. You need to stop watching CNN so much and read the Congressional record, you'd be surprised at the disparity between voting records and sound bytes!
Liberals care about the soldiers, that's why we didn't want them to go in the first place. Right.... that's why Murtha called them murderers and Kerry equated them to terrorists saying young American soldiers were ”going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women.” If that's your idea of support, I think the troops would rather live without it.
In fact, a lot of the soldiers are, egads, Liberals. Who by the way volunteered AFTER the war started ... the typical enlistment in the Army is 3 or 4 years, we are now approaching the 5th anniversary, and it’s been more than 3 years since the claim of faulty intelligence.
It is sad that our heros are coming home broken! Whats sadder is they went voluntarily and you diminsh their sacrifice by implying they were forced to go.
None of this is their fault. They are heros! They continue to do their patriotic duty, despite being placed in such a dark position. They voluntarily put themselves in harms way so that even people who ridicule the principals which they fight for can continue to berate and belittle the democracy they defend.
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 5:02:39 PM | I am every biit as patriotic as you are. I don't blame the troops. I support the troops and have sacrificed heavily in my life because of that sacrifice.
But blindly supporting this occupation does not equal support for the troops. They are mutually exclusive actions. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 5:19:57 PM | I am every biit as patriotic as you are. I don't blame the troops. I support the troops and have sacrificed heavily in my life because of that sacrifice. Who said you were unpatriotic? As for your sacrifices vs. mine, you have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you're talking about. You know nothing about me, my prior military service or the current service of my friends and immediate family. Personally I resent you even claiming to support the troops while ridiculing everything they VOLUNTEERED to do, it mocks their very existence.
But blindly supporting this occupation does not equal support for the troops. They are mutually exclusive actions. Actually they are mutually exclusive. Supporting the troops means being in favor of and pushing for better conditions in VA hospitals, increased benefits for veterans, wages that will help them provide for their family while on active duty. Voting to fund the war, as was the last bill passed by the DEMOCRATIC Congress, merely provides financial support for the "occupation", it did nothing to actually demonstrate support for the troops.
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 5:31:40 PM | No I don't YOU mock their existence by supporting actions that put them in harm's way. YOU don't have a freaking clue about me either.
I grant that you may have sacrificed as well and or served. AGAIN, your sacrifice vs. mine is another mutually exclusive argument.
This is an illegal war and occupation. By supporting this illegal action YOU help keep them in a position that puts them at risk and diminishes our standing in the world.
As for the last part of your statement, I agree 100%
I don't question your patriotism or sacrifice, but you have no idea how much I have sacrificed. It is personal. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 6:02:12 PM | No I don't YOU mock their existence by supporting actions that put them in harm's way. I think you need to read more and type less... it's an ALL VOLUNTEER military, they put themselves in harms way, stop diminishing their sacrifices by implying they are forced to serve, there is no draft!
This is an illegal war and occupation. Ummmm.... no it isn't
By supporting this illegal action YOU help keep them in a position that puts them at risk and diminishes our standing in the world. By "YOU" I assume you mean those wonderfully principled Democrats that swept into Congress last year and have voted in lock-step to continue funding the war they also voted to start? Check the congressional record my friend, you won't continue to spew all this venom once you learn that there is a HUGE difference between what they say and what they do.
I don't question your patriotism or sacrifice, but you have no idea how much I have sacrificed. It is personal. Then stop bringing it up. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/22/2007 6:32:32 PM |
Dems aren't strong enough. They should have impeached this corrupt administration days after taking office.
Yeah, because what this world needs is more reminders of Bill Clinton. | |
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