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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 11:56:46 AM | Of course the government tortures people. Because it works.
Murder is illegal too but it would be naive to think we will ever live in a world where people aren't going to rape and murder one another. As long as we have governments, we will have torture, oppression and genocide. Because it works.
If you oppose torture and genocide, then you should oppose the government and their war. Stop paying taxes. Stop consuming oil. Oppose any and all military expenditure. Because that's what this is about. Powerful people making a lot of money. Regardless of how their actions affect others.
The Bush administration has lied, they have destroyed evidence. They have no respect for the law or the rights of others.
The people of the Middle East have borne the brunt of American Imperialism. While the American people have chosen to pretend it does not exist. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 12:27:27 PM |
There is a medic/doctor who is monitors the event. Well that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy and secure inside. So if the CIA decides to "Waterboard" a loved one (or anyone for that matter) ... we can be sure a medic / doctor will be monitoring it. Hmmm ... the fact that a medic / doctor has to be monitoring it ... I wonder if that could be an indication that it's not entirely "medically sound"? DUH!!!!
if somebody had info that would save your childs life would u then want it done. What color "alert" is this? Is my child's life really in danger or is this just another scare tactic? Is this so-called "info" truly info or is it just hype to scare me into believing that my child's life is in danger?
The point is ... the whole damn nation was told of WMD's that didn't exist (not to mention even if they did ... none would have ever reached our shores) ... but we were hyped up to believe we were in imminent danger. Every time you turn around there's some sort of "red alert" or "orange alert". Do this enough times and people start to believe we are in constant danger. They use that crap to justify using torture on other human beings.
Waterboarding 'saved lives' Right off ... I'm not convinced that it did.
I'd also say none of the attacks would have taken place if the US could just keep it's nose out of others' business. We need to mind our own business and take care of our own problems at home.
Let Israel fight their own battles ... they have nukes (have had for a long time) ... they can protect themselves. We need to let them fight their own battles. If they want to go off and greedily steal others' land and settle it ... they should not ask for our backing and we should not offer it. That's what got us into this in the first place (IMO). Israel has Washington in their back pocket.
FOLLOW THE MONEY.
The payoffs weren't big enough for some and so they had to also go after Iraq's OIL. Some folks just can't get their throat full and our military is paying the price ... a high price indeed. Oh did I mention all the innocents who are also paying the price ... just collateral damage ... right?
What's important is that Israel is supposedly protected (so they can keep stealing more land in record amounts) and our president and his cronies get rich off of our military's back ... in many ways.
YUP ... start out with minding our own business and take care of our own people first before we go off to supposedly save the world.
There wouldn't be a need for Waterboarding if we hadn't created a "terrorist" atmosphere ... 
EDIT to below ...
Wow- some people make no effort to hide their hatred for the Jewish people!!! NOPE ... just can't see where it's necessary for ANY country to go in and greedily take something that does not rightfully belong to them whether it's land ... or OIL ... or whatever.
Ask Daniel Pearl or Nick Berg ... I do not believe that any amount of "Waterboarding" of any detainee would have contributed to saving the lives of those two men. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 12:38:33 PM | Wow- some people make no effort to hide their hatred for the Jewish people!!! As far as waterboarding goes- by all means, if it got us information that prevented the loss of ONE American life then it was well worth it and should be continued.
Ask Daniel Pearl or Nick Berg if they would have preferred being waterboarded to the fate they suffered. Oh sorry- they were EXECUTED by the "peaceful" Muslims thaty captured them. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 1:27:56 PM | - Let's not forget that water boarding is simply swimming, but free style backstroke. I wonder how many more intelligent senators serve in US government's senate.
- Below is what one of these intelligent senators, Kit Bond said on PBS.
GWEN IFILL: Let me ask Senator Bond a little bit about this issue of waterboarding. And let me describe for our viewers first to remind them what it is. It's when there's a piece of cloth that's placed over the mouth of a person who's been strapped down, and water is poured on their face so they feel like they're inhaling water, and it gives a sensation of drowning. Do you think that's torture?
SEN. KIT BOND: [Long, non-responsive answer.]
GWEN IFILL: I just would like to -- but do you think that waterboarding, as I described it, constitutes torture?
SEN. KIT BOND: There are different ways of doing it. It's like swimming: freestyle, backstroke. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 1:44:06 PM |
Wow- some people make no effort to hide their hatred for the Jewish people!!!
So you're starting the argument with an accusation of anti semetism. Which is good, if you're not actually trying to convince anybody but instead make them upset.
As far as waterboarding goes- by all means, if it got us information that prevented the loss of ONE American life then it was well worth it and should be continued.
I'm curious, do you feel the same way about abuses on your own population? Lets say, if every American who was arrested had to undergo waterboarding, just in case they were guilty of something, would you think that this is a reasonable procedure.
Ask Daniel Pearl or Nick Berg if they would have preferred being waterboarded to the fate they suffered. Oh sorry- they were EXECUTED by the "peaceful" Muslims thaty captured them.
Nice to see the moral standard you're upholding. If you don't do the worst possible thing, you get a free pass. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 1:58:42 PM |
As far as waterboarding goes- by all means, if it got us information that prevented the loss of ONE American life then it was well worth it and should be continued.
GREAT !
Then let's replace every single courtroom in the USA with one faucet. Imagine all the American lives that could be saved with a waterboarding unit in every police station. Not only that, but think of all the time and money saved as simply an additional bonus to be gained. 
Let's televise every single session too, that might even reduce the crime rate to zero. Imagine the ratings THAT reality show would generate.
Anyone have FOX's phone number ?
Too bad "Big Brother" is already taken, it would have been the PERFECT name for the show.
Sigh.
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 2:32:58 PM |
...Americans have been supporting and doing this for years,...
Ain't that the truth....decades, actually.....teaching others too.
They have a cute little handbook called Kubark...a lot more than just waterboarding...
...written with the help of a certain "doctor" by the name of Ewen Cameron whom the CIA funded for many years.... | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 4:02:48 PM | So- we were against waterboarding in WWII???? We( DEMOCRAT President FDR) also locked up Japanes-Americans and kept them in camps- times change and so does what we need to do.
I am not saying waterboarding should be a common prtactice but if we have reason to believe that a TERRORIST has information that can save American lives then we are compelled to get the information. Thanks to our Canadian "friends" but we will handle our national security, you handle yours. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 4:18:24 PM | We( DEMOCRAT President FDR) also locked up Japanese-Americans and kept them in camps- times change and so does what we need to do.
Which was found thank god to be unconstitutional!
I love how this country states We have to be better then the terrorists,we have to take the moral high ground.And yet waterboarding is condoned.Waterboarding has not been found to be an effective technique.As for daniel pearl cutting off heads I find that also disgusting! | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 4:26:19 PM | According to some experts, harsh interrogation techniques lead to false confessions. "'The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law,' claims John Sifton of Human Rights Watch."[24] "It is 'bad interrogation. I mean you can get anyone to confess to anything if the torture's bad enough,' said former CIA officer Bob Baer."[24] The Independent reports "legal experts said Khalid Sheikh Mohammed appeared to be exaggerating his role for his own self-aggrandizement and may also have deliberately floated false claims to send US investigators on wild goose chases."[25
On September 6, 2006, the U.S. Department of Defense released a revised Army Field Manual entitled Human Intelligence Collector Operations that prohibits the use of waterboarding by U.S. military personnel. The department adopted the manual amid widespread criticism of U.S. handling of prisoners in the War on Terrorism, and prohibits other practices in addition to waterboarding. The revised manual applies only to U.S. military personnel, and as such does not apply to the practices of the CIA.[57] However, under international law, violators of the laws of war are criminally liable under the command responsibility, and could still be prosecuted for war crimes.[58] | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 4:30:32 PM |
Thanks to our Canadian "friends"...
Ewen Cameron was a Canadian....perhaps you should read up on him, what he did, and where he got his funding from. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 4:35:56 PM | Like I said time and time again and not one person will adress (it seems that those of you who are oppossed it go after the weakest arguments) the issue. It doesnt have to be an all or none issue. It can be regulated.
The senator who described it as such is absolutely right. There was an ex-navy seal who subjected himself to it twice. He has declared his oppisition to it. I too, have watched the video and the duration and application constitued. He had it done to himself for 24 minutes and the way it was applied was a rag was jammed in his mouth while the "interregators" poured water on the rag. This was certainly a far different experience than what has been admitted recently has been done. 40 seconds with the cellephane method is a different story.
And I never advocated using it in domestic court systems. Way to twist that one. I said it should only, let me repeat myself self: only, only, only, only
It should only be used for mid-high level terrorist leaders and should only be applied when all else has failed.
What's next for the chopping block?
sleep deprivation?
standing for long periods?
perhaps maybe these terrorists should be given a room at the ritz?
And yes it has saved lives- this declaration is comming from an interregator who opposes it- if anything validating its effectivelness. The debate now is, does it constitute torture? | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 4:37:12 PM |
I am not saying waterboarding should be a common prtactice but if we have reason to believe that a TERRORIST has information that can save American lives then we are compelled to get the information. Here's a thought ... Couldn't we save lots of lives as well by not starting a war just to greedily rob another country of their OIL?
... but we will handle our national security ... Hmmm ... and when is that going to start? What color is the alert level right now? | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 4:48:48 PM | The debate now is, does it constitute torture?
Kiriakou said the waterboarding was approved by the White House and it worked. However, he said he has since struggled with the now-outlawed procedure, and considers it torture and something Americans should not do.
It’s torture, says Malcolm Nance, a counter-terrorism and intelligence consultant for the special operations, homeland security and intelligence agencies. Nance, writing for the Small Wars Journal website, called the debate over waterboarding "a crisis of honor."
And accepting it as a tool for interrogation, he says, does the United States no honor.
"As a former master instructor and chief of training at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School in San Diego ... I know the waterboard personally and intimately," he wrote. "I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people."
SERE, he wrote, is designed to show how "an evil totalitarian, enemy would use torture at the slightest whim. If this is the case, then waterboarding is unquestionably being used as torture technique."
Is waterboarding torture?YES | |
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edisto
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Joined: 9/11/2007
Msg: 40 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 5:06:39 PM | there is NO way that those who see waterboarding as torture will change their minds nor will those who think it's just an effective interrogation technique will think it's torture...
however, my comment is...
"I have seen the enemy and it is us!"
Americans, discussing the use of waterboarding!
imho, bin laden isn't only responsible for killing over 2,000 citizens, he is also indirectly responsible for the loss of America's soul! | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 5:36:49 PM | "I have seen the enemy and it is us!"
This is actually a great representation of a good portion of the left. You said it, not me.
And JED, in the post above yours I explained the tecnique that the ex-seal had done to him. 24 mimnutes with a forceful method is certainly not going to contested - its torture. However, 40 sec- 1 minute using the cellephane is not the the same as 24 minutes with a rag jammed in the mouth. These issues are not necessarily yes or no issues, but across a spectrum. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 6:05:17 PM | In my youth, I was a die-hard liberal. The years go by, and I’ve seen too much injustice, intolerance, greed… enough to make the “die-hard”… well… die. Then again, I’m reminded of the words of Winston Churchill, “Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains”. I’ve learned that the law and indeed, society in general, is not uniform, but has at least two flavors: one for the wealthy, one for the rest of us. Maybe 3 flavors if you consider the poor and disenfranchised.
What does this have to do with waterboarding? Well, it does seem to me that our leaders, with very few exceptions, have been the types who prattle, “Do what I say, not what I do.” And this is hardly limited to the current administration or the U.S. They seem to do whatever they please and then use the most ridiculous justifications to placate the masses. And we let them get away with it. Oh, sure, maybe a couple days of “righteous indignation” by some folks and the media, but wait a week or two, and all is forgiven and forgotten – we go on with our lives, we have troubles enough to fill the days.
Waterboarding is just another example. And if people in our government or military perform such heinous acts – remember Abu Ghraib? – what can WE, THE PEOPLE, do? What control do we have over such situations? And does our rule of law work for or against us? You know, such tidbits as “due process”, “innocent until proven guilty”, or the 6th Amendment “Confrontation Clause”, a jury of your peers, and so on. Military vs criminal courts? Congressional panels to investigate these matter seem to take years (not to mention cost taxpayers millions of dollars)? And after all that, what? Of course, let us not forget the “Presidential Pardon” trump card.
When is enough, enough? Will a time ever come (again) when WE, THE PEOPLE, fight back against tyranny and oppression? Quite frankly, I don’t know. I do appreciate everyone here for speaking their minds and hearts – thank god we haven’t lost freedom of speech… yet. | |
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edisto
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Joined: 9/11/2007
Msg: 43 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 6:09:35 PM |
This is actually a great representation of a good portion of the left. You said it, not me.
Merc and little merc, it is no wonder that you are fighting over semantics, over the definition of “torture” since YOU don't even understand the meaning of the word "us" in the quote, “I have seen the enemy and it is us"
the definition of us...
"I and the rest of a group that includes me"
us…it means you and me and everyone else, NOT them or a group within a group!
torture is illegal, waterboarding is torture, before Bush that was not even questioned, why is it being questioned NOW? because Bush allowed waterboarding, to save his ass and those in his administration, he cannot take back the waterboarding, BUT, he can change the definition of torture...way to go minions!
our message to the world is go ahead and waterboard OUR troops, it’s not torture…way to go minions again! | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 6:15:47 PM | The problem of course in saying "we should only use it on terrorists" is - how do you define who is a terrorist?
Once you condone a practice as being "OK" on certain people, you can be sure that the practice becomes even more "OK" to use on other sectors of the population. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 6:43:41 PM | It is so depressing that we are no longer the good guys.
TORTURE doesn't work.
It is a lie, torturing the terror suspects saved no lives, but as one apt poster correctly stated before me, it has cost many Americans their souls!
We didn't torture the Hessians.
We didn't torture the Germans.
We didn't torture the Japaneese.
Only ignorant people think toruture is a valid response! | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 6:56:29 PM | Montreal Guy: You would be outraged seeing an American, Canadian or European soldier or citizen being waterboarded. Perhaps you have forgotten that the last signatory to the Geneva Convention in a war we have fought was Nazi Germany! Japan was not a signatory to the Geneva Convention, and they brutalized Allied POWs horribly.
In the 1991 Gulf War, Iraq was not a signatory to the Geneva Convention. All of the fighter pilots who were shot down were tortured. Perhaps you didn't pay any attention to Saddam parading them on television, but I recall it very vividly. They were not just subjected to a 40-second episode of waterboarding. They were beaten severely at the hands of Saddam's thugs.
Perhaps you don't recall that the Iraqi Army literally surrendered to anyone who was from the West--including news crews. General Schwartzkopf had something like 150,000 Iraqi prisoners of war, and they were all treated according to the Geneva Convention. Of course, the massive numbers overwhelmed the military's ability to house and feed them, but the Coalition did their best to treat the Iraqis according to the Geneva standards knowing that our own men were being tortured.
The real issue is that Al Qaeda members are not subject to the Geneva Convention. They are not members of a national army nor are they wearing the uniform of any nation. They violate all of the laws of war by engaging in terrorism. They hide among the civilian population.
I agree that we should not resort to brutality; but if the terrorists know that they have nothing to fear by falling into the hands of the Americans, we are sunk. I suggest that you read Mark Bowden's article "The Dark Art of Interrogation" that was in "The Atlantic Monthly" about five years ago. There is a difference between torture and coercion. The one thing that the human mind cannot tolerate is uncertainty. Physical pain is easy to bear once it starts. It's the not knowing what's going to happen that is the real torment. That is something that a smart, successful interrogator can use as a psychological weapon against a terrorist without laying a finger on him. | |
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edisto
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Joined: 9/11/2007
Msg: 47 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 7:39:11 PM | ^^^^^^^^
Physical pain is easy to bear once it starts. It's the not knowing what's going to happen that is the real torment. That is something that a smart, successful interrogator can use as a psychological weapon against a terrorist without laying a finger on him.
NOT TRUE!
"According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in."
these men knew that they wouldn't drown and they knew what was coming next!
yet they couldn't take waterboarding so your premise of "not knowing what's going to happen is the real torment" is totally bogus!
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866
Merc, so your “humane” way of waterboarding is:
not to use it on women…
so women who may have some insight into say a planned terrorist attack wouldn’t be waterboarded…HA!
only the CIA will use this technique
since waterboarding is illegal and the CIA used it, this should show you that ANY agency can rationalize its use
only waterboard for 40 seconds!
oh, right, that’s why the CIA agents could only take 14 seconds, silly whiners, they should have known it’s not torture until the 41st second…
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 7:40:04 PM | Edisto dont even try to it- "The Enemy is us" is a reference to Americans. Its something your brand has been preaching for years now. Its part of the Noam Chompsky cultural leftist values
And to the effect that you, nor anyone else on this board who are against it, still has not wrestled with the heart of the issue, the tecnique itself. Ive laid out two examples and have given REASONING as to which one constitutes torture and which one does not.
As for having concerns about it being used elsewhere in the justice system, its certainly an issue to be adressed. This can be adressed, with regulatory guidlines. It wouldnt be in the interest of the CIA to overuse the tecnique and run the risk of losing it. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 8:11:21 PM |
Might have saved some lives. But it cost more people their souls
I'd gladly give my soul to protect my country, its children from seeing what I saw overseas, in a heart beat no questions asked,
Next time you drive by a school look at the kids and imagine everyone of them dead from lack of food, bomb, murder , hacked up, sold off as slaves etc (real world in africa) | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 12/12/2007 8:39:24 PM |
while the "interregators" ...
An ex-navy seal who new he'd get out alive...
What? No comment on those who didn't know they'd get out alive? What about those test subjects? You know....the ones who were subugated involentarally???
What's next for the chopping block?
The question should really be...
What's next on the opting block?
It wouldnt be in the interest of the CIA to overuse the tecnique and run the risk of losing it.
HA!
The CIA has been doing it, and teaching it for DECADES...these are not new relevations.....the only difference is what they did in secret before is now....
"...the new normal..."
Nice catch-phrase right after 9/11........... | |
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