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 Author Thread: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 801
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/7/2009 6:50:38 AM

The chickens merely came home to roost on 911.


So, you “do” think we had it coming. How sad to actually believe 3,000 innocent people should have died to placate a terrorist’s irrational and misguided hate for America. I’m sure you’ll help arm the next terrorist bomb then.


The point being made is that if you go to country X and train people in terrorism tactics to fight country Z whom is supposedly at the time, your enemy don't it just kinda make sense that one day that might just backfire? Well it did. Not just with Bin Laden and gang but, with Saddam as well. Both were pet projects of our lovely folks in the CIA and other shadow ops.


Bad logic. So according to you we should have turned a blind ear to Afghan pleas for assistance in fighting the Soviets and let them perish under Soviet guns. Furthermore, we should have a hands off policy and never help another nation militarily, in any situation, even if it’s in our own national interests.

In order to avoid “any” messy future scenario we should withdraw from the world, become isolationist, and never get involved in “anything” for fear it will adversely affect some future event. Maybe we can enclose the entire country in bubble wrap?

Another analogy to bring home “your” point: A gang of really vicious criminals that your local police are powerless to stop is terrorizing your neighborhood. Local officials understand the problem and have the ability to arm the neighborhood with weapons for personal protection (this, btw, is the only way to get such weapons). However, the authorities deny such action out of fear the weapons might end up in the hands of the gang, or worse, you may turn around and use them against the very officials that provided them, either now or in the future.


I believe we should make it a part of international law, that waging war be illegal 100%. We should also make sales of weapons to other nations illegal/treason. We should make training militarily, any and all outside of our nation TREASON! That will curtail some of the mess in the future.


Oh really? And just how would you “enforce” such laws? Who would be the policeman? The UN has been a toothless tiger for decades and hasn’t stopped a damn thing. There have been more genocides in the past 60 years than almost our entire world history.


If no one trained and armed the Mujaheddin there would have been no Al Qaeda they are one and the same. If Reagan did not help to build all of the schools to teach radical Islam and send the CIA and special forces to train those A holes there would not be this isssue for the USA today.


Reagan helped build madrassas that taught radical Islam? Terrorists hate us for arming the Mujahideen, which “helped” them repel the Soviets? What? That makes absolutely no sense. Where are you getting your history from? You’re not only misinformed and illogical, but also delusional. I can’t believe you actually believe such crap.

What terrorists “do” hate us for is supporting Israel and what they feel is our unwanted intrusion in Middle East affairs. And this was way before waterboarding and Iraq were even a glint in Bush’s eye. To them, our entire Mid-East policy since WW2 is objectionable. But in the span of history that’s an extremely short time. European powers like England and France have meddled in the region’s affairs much longer, and done WAY more damage, than anything the US has ever done up to 9-11. If islamofascist hate us for our actions over such a short time, they should be boiling mad at Europe?


No one is saying the the nation as in we the people deserve to be attacked. What people are saying is that IF YOU RAISE A VENOMOUS SNAKE THAT ONE DAY IT WILL BE NO SURPRISE IF YOU GET BIT!


Wrong, that’s “exactly” what you’re saying, in every smug reference and cynical phrase. You haven't said one word against the terrorists that launch the attacks so I can only surmise that’s where your real sympathy really lies.
 cotter

Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 802
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/7/2009 7:28:33 AM

The UN has been a toothless tiger for decades and hasn’t stopped a damn thing.
That's right. And a perfect example of that is the US ... sitting in there vetoing (anti-enforcement) all sanctions and resolutions against their good buddy (fellow bully in the Middle East) ... Israel.

What terrorists “do” hate us for is supporting Israel and what they feel is our unwanted intrusion in Middle East affairs. And this was way before waterboarding and Iraq were even a glint in Bush’s eye. To them, our entire Mid-East policy since WW2 is objectionable.
Correct ... spot on.

Israel is a big problem and we have been taking direct hits for years because of our affiliation with them. It's time for the greedy in Washington to stop filling their pockets with money from the Zionists and get a freaking spine. Dump the Israelis into the bed of fire they have created for themselves and let them fend for themselves.

If not for our support for Israel, Bobby Kennedy might still be walking among us. If not for our support of Israel, 911 would not have occurred. "The Shrub" would have had to find a different reason to invade a sovereign nation. Not to say he wouldn't have found one since we all know he had that plan long before 911 ... 911 was just extremely useful in putting it in action.

OT ...
This is an old thread ... it's already been established that water boarding DID NOT save lives. It's just BS propaganda to justify torture.

It's nothing more than a bunch of evil degenerates getting some sort of sick satisfaction out of it. Nothing more ... except that it is illegal and anyone involved in it in any way needs to go to prison.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 803
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/7/2009 7:35:34 AM
Bobby Kennedy? What does his assassination have to do with this? Do you honestly believe if we broke ties tomorrow the Muslim world will suddenly embrace us and forgive what they consider past "sins". Nothing I've seen would indicate such a thing.

Simple question that has no hedging: Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
 Kaos86

Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 804
Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/7/2009 7:58:08 AM
Mowtownmaniax love your responses, your smart and informed.


Israel is a big problem and we have been taking direct hits for years because of our affiliation with them. It's time for the greedy in Washington to stop filling their pockets with money from the Zionists and get a freaking spine. Dump the Israelis into the bed of fire they have created for themselves and let them fend for themselves.

I now believe in Reincanation and we have located the spirit of Hitler.

It's all Israels fault..... but weren't they there first?
When you think about that arguement, how many nations should legally exist today.
You cannot keep fighting wars from hundreds of years ago.

The left needs to get over it.
Israel exists because of their claims to the land and because the majority of the world wanted it as so. Just as you advocated in an earlier post (Americans must have their say) the world had it's say after WWII.

When will Obama be waterboarded to discover the truth behind the Terrorizing of New York City last week?
 cotter

Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 805
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/7/2009 8:12:20 AM


If not for our support for Israel, Bobby Kennedy might still be walking among us.

Bobby Kennedy? What does his assassination have to do with this?
Just one more loss due to our support of Israel. Are you not aware that Bobby's assassin killed him because of Bobby's pledge (if elected) to support Israel with more military aid?

... the assassination was an open-and-shut case. Numerous witnesses had seen Sirhan Sirhan, the 24-year-old Palestinian immigrant who'd been apprehended at the crime scene, fire at Kennedy. Sirhan himself admitted he must have shot the Senator (since so many witnesses had seen him), even though he couldn't remember anything about the evening from the time he'd had a cup of coffee with an attractive young woman until after he'd emptied his gun and lay pinned to the pantry steam table.

Sirhan also seemed to have a clear motive. When he was taken into custody, the police found in his pocket a newspaper clipping criticizing RFK for opposing the Vietnam War while favoring military aid to Israel. A background check revealed that as a young child in Palestine, Sirhan had seen the bloodied bodies of Arabs bombed by the Israelis, and his own brother was killed by an enemy truck as it veered to avoid sniper fire. Authorities reasoned that those early experiences had left Sirhan embittered against American politicians, like RFK, who supported Israel.



Simple question that has no hedging: Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
There are more than enough websites out there ... both civilian and military (IDF) ... that indicate and support the idea that Israel could exist quite peacefully along with a Palestinian state if the greedy killer Zionists were not involved.

I have Palestinian friends as well as Jewish friends. All of my Jewish friends agree that in order for there to be peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis ... the Zionists have to go. They are convinced that the two can live (as before) peacefully if the Zionists are taken out of power.
 ManFromMesa

Joined: 4/14/2009
Msg: 806
Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/7/2009 8:16:28 AM

Do you honestly believe if we broke ties tomorrow the Muslim world will suddenly embrace us and forgive what they consider past "sins". Nothing I've seen would indicate such a thing.


Heavens no,we have meddled way to much for that to happen,we would almost have to stop having any interest in the regions resources,then years ,decades would have to pass of our non intervention and years of not making them a topic before they could ever begin to feel there ways, and feel its exclusively there countries,good lord it would take decades of non activity.

Will never happen as soon as there neighbor drives a tank over the border you can be sure we will torture someone to find out,why,when and how many more,and does this invasion bring risk to our oil fields that we think are ours to protect.
 kabiosile

Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 807
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/7/2009 2:16:59 PM


So, you “do” think we had it coming. How sad to actually believe 3,000 innocent people should have died to placate a terrorist’s irrational and misguided hate for America. I’m sure you’ll help arm the next terrorist bomb then.



I do not think WE had it coming I think our government sold us out for big oil and the opium trades interest in the region, as well as their zealotry in anticommunism. They purposefully created a military power where there was none. I do not condone ANY act of violence if you have not figured it out yet I believe and stand firmly on the side of non-violence.

My heros do not carry guns but the message and living example of love compassion and forgiveness. Look up Jesus, Gandhi, Martin luther king Jr Mandela etc. These people brought about change against empires, and other wicked forces without the use of violence. The only weapon they carried was love and even the grandest of empires crumbled in the face of it.

I believe this is the proper course for humanity most especially in this time where it wouldnt take but a few nukes to wipe it all out and make it all a moot point.

I would never help any terrorist be they from another country or this one. I am opposed to ALL war, ALL violence and ALL terror. So it is you whom is being irrational.

I simply pointed out that Bin Laden and gang as well as Saddam were "made" by our own government and trained how to do wicked things like terrorism to fight the USSR in the case of the nuts in Bin Laden's gang and given weapons and training that they would have never been able to manage invent or come by themselves..

The point is that you fail to grasp is they, bit the hand that fed them. I am saying you cannot say that this is just some homemade movement of Islamic origins. Where did they receive their original momentum? My point here that you are trying to twist into something it is not, is you cannot play these kinds of games in other countries and expect for them not to backfire. I was just as grief stricken as any other American on 911 that all of those innocent people had died on that horrific day. The difference between me and you though is you only blame others and I know it is more complex than that.




In order to avoid “any” messy future scenario we should withdraw from the world, become isolationist, and never get involved in “anything” for fear it will adversely affect some future event. Maybe we can enclose the entire country in bubble wrap?


Those are your words not mine. I simply believe if we are opposed to terrorism as a nation we should not be engaging in it and perpetuating it by training people to commit it.

I wish we would really oppose terror. To do so would not have anything to do with military at all. War IS terror. I wish we would be the example in the world and start dealing with problems without the use of violence. We could lead by example you know instead of talking out of both sides of our face. There were better ways to try to stop Al Qaeda than to invade Afghanistan but, revenge was too much of a bait to get us over there. Our leaders could not resist the call for an eye for an eye to make the whole world blind.





Another analogy to bring home “your” point: A gang of really vicious criminals that your local police are powerless to stop is terrorizing your neighborhood. Local officials understand the problem and have the ability to arm the neighborhood with weapons for personal protection (this, btw, is the only way to get such weapons). However, the authorities deny such action out of fear the weapons might end up in the hands of the gang, or worse, you may turn around and use them against the very officials that provided them, either now or in the future.



This is the crux of our disagreement. You seem to think the only way to fight terrorists is with violence. I am saying with conviction giving into violence is the root of terror. You become what you supposedly oppose by giving into violence. Violence begets violence.




Oh really? And just how would you “enforce” such laws? Who would be the policeman?


I am not talking about simply the UN. As far as international law goes if people can sanction and isolate other governments for infractions of international law the same goes for this. If we as a species and nations stood firmly opposed to terror we would not allow this militarism to be spread all over the globe....

Further if there were national laws here that it is treason to supply other countries with weapons and training game over lest they wish to face the penalties for treason.




Terrorists hate us for arming the Mujahideen, which “helped” them repel the Soviets? What? That makes absolutely no sense.


Your words not mine. You are twisting the meaning of my words since you cannot refute them.





Wrong, that’s “exactly” what you’re saying, in every smug reference and cynical phrase. You haven't said one word against the terrorists that launch the attacks so I can only surmise that’s where your real sympathy really lies.


Oh my dear brother I do love when people think they can tell me what I think and am saying and most especially where my sympathies lie.

I oppose ALL forms of violence be they poverty, war, terror, etc. My point for pointing these things out is I have met too many Americans whom are brainwashed to believe that all of this appeared from out of no where and some group whom supposedly "hates our freedoms" or "hates our way of life." They do not wish to delve into the long history of shadow ops stirring the hornets nest and arming and training these thugs and murders to be more efficient murderers. My point here is that all sides in this are guilty as sin and have the blood of many innocents on their hands.

IF a nation truly has "interests" in a nation or region would it not make more sense that they would NOT want to aid the spread violence to it? Or is it that they don't just have "interests" and really desire hegemony?

This is where the issue lay. I think empire is a foolish course that leads to Destruction of all parties involved. That road leads to misery of epic proportions.

I believe a great many nations that find themselves in a situation of being one of the most powerful nations in the world get tempted by the idea of empire. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I do not think you can even begin to comprehend the love I have for my people, this nation, and the world.

People whom condone violence often have no clue what love really is.
 xzanthius

Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 808
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/11/2009 3:09:58 PM
Kabiosil... ditto...nice.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 809
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/13/2009 2:34:03 AM
Very good article by a writer/commentator whose intelligence and common sense I deeply admire.


Torture? No. Except . . .
By Charles Krauthammer, Friday, May 1, 2009

Torture is an impermissible evil. Except under two circumstances. The first is the ticking time bomb. An innocent's life is at stake. The bad guy you have captured possesses information that could save this life. He refuses to divulge. In such a case, the choice is easy. Even John McCain, the most admirable and estimable torture opponent, says openly that in such circumstances, "You do what you have to do." And then take the responsibility.

Some people, however, believe you never torture. Ever. They are akin to conscientious objectors who will never fight in any war under any circumstances, and for whom we correctly show respect by exempting them from war duty. But we would never make one of them Centcom commander. Private principles are fine, but you don't entrust such a person with the military decisions upon which hinges the safety of the nation. It is similarly imprudent to have a person who would abjure torture in all circumstances making national security decisions upon which depends the protection of 300 million countrymen.

The second exception to the no-torture rule is the extraction of information from a high-value enemy in possession of high-value information likely to save lives. This case lacks the black-and-white clarity of the ticking time bomb scenario. We know less about the length of the fuse or the nature of the next attack. But we do know the danger is great. (One of the "torture memos" noted that the CIA had warned that terrorist "chatter" had reached pre-9/11 levels.) We know we must act but have no idea where or how -- and we can't know that until we have information. Catch-22.

Under those circumstances, you do what you have to do. And that includes waterboarding. (To call some of the other "enhanced interrogation" techniques -- face slap, sleep interruption, a caterpillar in a small space -- torture is to empty the word of any meaning.)

Did it work? The current evidence is fairly compelling. George Tenet said that the "enhanced interrogation" program alone yielded more information than everything gotten from "the FBI, the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency put together."

Michael Hayden, CIA director after waterboarding had been discontinued, writes (with former attorney general Michael Mukasey) that "as late as 2006 . . . fully half of the government's knowledge about the structure and activities of al-Qaeda came from those interrogations." Even Dennis Blair, Obama's director of national intelligence, concurs that these interrogations yielded "high value information." So much for the lazy, mindless assertion that torture never works.....

Full Article at ==> http://tinyurl.com/dncwf8

I'll answer kabiosile presently.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/13/2009 4:08:23 AM

I do not think WE had it coming I think our government sold us out for big oil and the opium trades interest in the region,


Proof, my dear friend, proof. And not from some mindless conspiracy web site or crackpot author.


They purposefully created a military power where there was none. I do not condone ANY act of violence if you have not figured it out yet I believe and stand firmly on the side of non-violence.


And being totally non-violent is your right. However, it's NOT your right to speak for and represent the interests of a country you haven't been elected to protect and defend. The people in charge of such things don't have the luxury to be non-violent in all circumstances and still be able to carry out their functions effectively. In your world view there should be no armies or weapons or bad guys. Poof, and their gone. Unfortunately, we live in the real world, not a utopia.


My heros do not carry guns but the message and living example of love compassion and forgiveness. Look up Jesus, Gandhi, Martin luther king Jr Mandela etc. These people brought about change against empires, and other wicked forces without the use of violence. The only weapon they carried was love and even the grandest of empires crumbled in the face of it.


See previous comment


I believe this is the proper course for humanity most especially in this time where it wouldnt take but a few nukes to wipe it all out and make it all a moot point.


Again, when you have the responsibility to protect the nation and the lives within it, and are faced with people that don't share your doctrine of non-violence, peace, love, and understanding, you can try persuading them. If they don't agree I guess you can try persuading them again. Maybe use harsh language next time. But to unilaterally dismiss any potential hostile action (even military) when confronting a demonstrable threat just gives a potential enemy with no such scruples an invitation to attack. This basic tenet has been proven again and again throughout history.


I would never help any terrorist be they from another country or this one. I am opposed to ALL war, ALL violence and ALL terror. So it is you whom is being irrational.


See all above. You're saying the same thing over and over again, just slightly differently. I "get" your doctrine is non-violence. Who's isn't? No one is advocating we all go out and kill the next person we see. It's time to get past polemics and tell me what you would do if attacked?


I simply pointed out that Bin Laden and gang as well as Saddam were "made" by our own government and trained how to do wicked things like terrorism to fight the USSR in the case of the nuts in Bin Laden's gang and given weapons and training that they would have never been able to manage invent or come by themselves..


We didn't "make" bin Laden (when did Hussein get involved with this?). This twisting of facts and exaggerating the help he received really has to stop. Bin laden's ideas crystallized before he ever received help from CIA/Pakistani intelligence in fighting the Soviets (help that many other mujaheddin benefited from, too, btw). The "training" he received was marginal. The whole reason he took up arms in the first place was not his passionate hatred of America, but his religious duty to join the jihad against the Soviet domination of Afghanistan. Kicking the Soviets out of Afghanistan was a goal of both the US "and" mujahideen, remember? Only when US forces we're stationed on his sacred Saudi soil during Gulf War 1 (with the total blessing of the Saudi government, btw) did his hatred turn fully on us.

As for Hussein, a classic misdirection tactic used by critics. Iraq was a bungled sideshow that took our focus off of securing and rebuilding Afghanistan. If we hadn't shifted our resources so quickly and blindly Afghanistan might be more stable today. We're talking Islamic fundamentalist groups now, so don't dilute the present debate with Iraq.


The point is that you fail to grasp is they, bit the hand that fed them. I am saying you cannot say that this is just some homemade movement of Islamic origins. Where did they receive their original momentum? My point here that you are trying to twist into something it is not, is you cannot play these kinds of games in other countries and expect for them not to backfire. I was just as grief stricken as any other American on 911 that all of those innocent people had died on that horrific day. The difference between me and you though is you only blame others and I know it is more complex than that.


I never said it was a "homemade movement of Islamic origins". It had many fathers and influences. But your repeated attempts to lay the lion's share of "blame" at the feet of America is simplistic and misguided. It also gives Islamic terrorists cover and an excuse to perpetuate their hate forever. Do you honestly believe that withdrawing support for Israel will placate their demands? Are we to operate under the notion that whenever a fanatical group anywhere in the world feels "aggrieved" and wants a country to do their bidding, all they have to do is threaten attack to get their way? If so, won't that just embolden them to demand more? Where would it end? Disgruntled extremists could blackmail anyone?

You're also getting caught up in the narrow focus of what is motivativating such hate and defending their right to act on it without asking other obvious questions, such as how to deal it, what is the range of responses we can take, and what to do if nothing works and attacks are eminent?

Last thought. After reading all your impassioned pleas against violence, I find it supreme irony how much you defend Islamic extremists that use it as their basic weapon of choice.
 whiskeypapa

Joined: 5/19/2008
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/13/2009 10:37:49 AM
Krauthammer is one of the leading neocon propagandists whos' unabashed support of the illegal invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq is used as confirmation that what Bush has done, while illegal, is the right thing to do. The Bushites return the favour by using him as the "authority" for justification of their monstrous acts of wholesale slaughter and torture. Frankensteins two pus-filled legs.

Krauthammers' recent persuesive article is based on Tenets self-justification for torture in the hope he will recieve a short sentence when he is prosecuted for crimes against humanity.

If you need proof that the Bush administration sold you out to big oil and the opium trade you need only to look at the BTC pipeline. That oil goes to the Euorpean market, how does that benefit the US? as soon as the US invaded Afghanistan the opium trade was revitalized, how did that benefit the US?

Tell us how in your "real world" the continued occupation of Afghanistan is benefitting the US. don't bother telling us about the bogeyman coming to attack the US in the night, by now most americans are sleeping with a ligh on.

The "lins share" of the blame for islamic fanaticism can be laid at the feet of the US. It began with the funding and training of the Mujahadeen used to overthrow the Taraki government. the Mugahadeen were not native Afghanistans, they were gathered from throughout the middle east, most with a strong background in Wahabism which is more ancient tribal custom than Islam ,endemic to Saudi Arabia. It was the torture of prisoners in Au Graib that was the poster child for fanaticial al-Quida recruitment. In short there would be no "islamic extremists" if the US had not created them and furthered their reason for existence by occupying and looting their countries.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 812
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/13/2009 12:58:45 PM
Oh, so I'm supposed to take all your sources on faith, but you can reject all mine by labeling them as unworthy. I see, selective reasoning -- as long as you're doing the selecting. Sorry, but I still like Krauthammer's views and analysis on a variety of subjects and will take his over yours anytime.

Again, bin Laden was NOT "created" by the CIA. He fully and eagerly accepted help from "any" source in fighting the Soviets because it benefited him. If Switzerland provided the aid he could have cared less. The fact is at that time we went by the dictum that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. No one had a crystal ball telling us Khobar Towers, the African embassy bombings, USS Cole, etc, and 9-11 lay in our future. You certainly didn't.

We have no better example of helping a potential enemy than WW2, or have you forgotten? We supported, armed, and fought side by side with Soviet Communism, even though Churchill knew we were making a pact with the devil and Roosevelt misguidedly thought he could "handle" Uncle Joe. The reason being that Hitler and Nazism were deemed worse "at the time". It should have surprised no one that immediately following the end of hostilities Stalin quickly broke solemn pledges to give Eastern Europe the right of self-determination and holding free elections. Instead he enclosed them in an iron curtain of totalitarism, fear, and hopelessness that wasn't lifted for 50 years.

Abu Ghraib happened many years "after" bin Laden's so-called creation in Afghanistan, the WTC bombing in 1993, and even 9-11 --- remember? You're jumping all over the place; your logic's getting sloppy. Please don't mix events and timeframes and make it sound like one, connected event in time. They aren't and you know it.

I know where the mujahideen came from and how it morphed into the Taliban. Pakistan's government allowed their bases creation and insured their continued existence by a policy of appeasement and internal government corruption. Now they're paying the price, and that price could very well lead to their ultimate overthrow and regime change.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 813
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/13/2009 1:35:46 PM
Found another flaw in your logic. If we were so hellbent on "looting" Afghanistan and profiting from the opium trade, why did we abandon the country so quickly after helping to defeat the Soviets? The country at that time was totally devastated and ripe for the picking. The Taliban had yet to build up and there was no central command structure in place? Why wait years to follow up and have to face a far more formidable foe after the Taliban consolidated power?

Why, when Bush finally went in, did he almost immediately "shift" to Iraq and pour almost all our resources there, basically letting Afghanistan rot on the vine? You'd think with his evil intent he'd never allow Europeans to get rich off that Afghani pipeline instead of himself?

As for the opium, some farmers, corrupt Afghan government officials, and Taliban strong arms who use it to fund their operations are getting the profits, not Bush.

If I'm to believe all this evil genius masterminding attributed to Bush, why was he so sloppy carrying his plan out?
 whiskeypapa

Joined: 5/19/2008
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/13/2009 7:46:51 PM
Thought I had better get on here before you found another flaw in my logic.

Propaganda cannot teach you anything new nor can it change your mind once it is made up. Propaganda can only tell you what you already know. Propaganda only releases your inner voice. krauthammer writes propaganda justifying torture, you agree with torture so Krauthammer writes with intelligence and common sense. I don't agree with torture so all I see is an old pompom girl chanting Yea Bush! Yea torture!

as I recall the US wasn't occupying Afghanistan after the soviets were driven out. I suppose we will have to check the Reagan years to find why Afghanistan was left to wither on the vine. What was going on at that time? I think it was the beginning of the dissolution of the soviet Union and the looting of Russia by the Jewish oligarchys. Only so many hands and so many pockets I suppose.

I have to agree, the "decider" isn't an evil genius. The "high functioning moron" was a tool of the neocons . The neocons were not in the game for personal wealth, theirs was the goal of zionist domination of the middle-east. Their program revealed in their PNAC and their paper "A Clean Break" outlined the order of the countries to be attacked, Syria, Iraq and Iran. Afghanistan was a deviation from the plan but Bush was under considerable pressure from UNOCAL to rid Afghanistan of the Taliban so that a more malleable administration could be put in place.

right now no one is benefitting from an Afghanistan pipeline because none are in place. But the US has placed a huge base in the "desert of death" straddling the proposed route of a trans-Afghanistan pipeline.

Bin laden was only one of the Mujahadeen recruited to overthrow the Taraki government and drive off the Soviets. That he was to assume leadership of al-quida by virtue of his deep pockets came later. But as I stated it was the US and the Saudis who recruited and paid for the Mujahadeen. and it is the US who is responsible for the rise of he Taliban by funding their administration.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 815
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/13/2009 7:54:07 PM
Another logic problem I have with cynics is the selectivity of their arguments.

If Bush is the target, a conspiracy scenario is used to fit the apparent circumstances within his specific administration. If they don’t fit, then the US government “as a whole” over multiple administrations is used instead, as if all ex-presidents (and sitting ones, too, since a conspiracy over such a time would need careful coordination between administrations) periodically get together to map out grand strategy and make needed adjustments. Whether the individual pieces fit, or even make logical sense, doesn’t seem to bother the cynics one bit. It’s all grist in the mill to portray our government as one, supreme, long-lasting, interconnected bogeyman.

That any conspiracy with more than a few people has a nasty tendency to unravel very quickly is another dichotomy evidently lost on the cynics. The magnitude of what we're talking about here would need to include hundreds if not thousands of willing participants, all sworn to secrecy. In all this time not one has come forward and said, yes, there was a secret government plan all along, over multiple administrations, to create bin Laden, set him up as leader of al Qaeda, and orchestrate 9-11. Of course I'd need a little thing called "proof" to back up the claim. Tall order indeed.
 cotter

Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 816
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/13/2009 9:39:37 PM
From the original post ...
The former agent, who said he participated in the Abu Zubayda interrogation but not his waterboarding, said the CIA decided to waterboard the al Qaeda operative only after he was "wholly uncooperative" for weeks and refused to answer questions. All that changed -- and Zubayda reportedly had a divine revelation -- after 30 to 35 seconds of waterboarding, Kiriakou said he learned from the CIA agents who performed the technique.

And now not even 18 months later ...
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/13/interrogation.hearing/index.html
'Enhanced interrogations' don't work, ex-FBI agent tells panel
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The contentious debate over so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques" took center stage on Capitol Hill on Wednesday as a former FBI agent involved in the questioning of terror suspects testified that such techniques -- including waterboarding -- are ineffective.
From left: Sens. Lindsey Graham, Sheldon Whitehouse, Patrick Leahy and Dianne Feinstein listen Wednesday.
Ali Soufan, an FBI special agent from 1997 to 2005, told members of a key Senate Judiciary subcommittee that such "techniques, from an operational perspective, are ineffective, slow and unreliable, and harmful to our efforts to defeat al Qaeda."
His remarks followed heated exchanges between committee members with sharply differing views on both the value of the techniques and the purpose of the hearing itself.
Soufan, who was involved in the interrogation of CIA detainee Abu Zubaydah, took issue with former Vice President****Cheney, who has said that enhanced interrogation techniques helped the government acquire intelligence necessary to prevent further attacks after September 11, 2001.
The techniques, which were approved by the Bush administration, are considered torture by many critics. Watch analysts discuss harsh interrogations and torture »
"From my experience -- and I speak as someone who has personally interrogated many terrorists and elicited important actionable intelligence -- I strongly believe that it is a mistake to use what has become known as the 'enhanced interrogation techniques,' " Soufan noted in his written statement.
Such a position is "shared by many professional operatives, including the CIA officers who were present at the initial phases of the Abu Zubaydah interrogation."
Soufan told the committee that within the first hour of his interrogating Zubaydah, the suspected terrorist provided actionable intelligence.
But once the CIA contractors took over and used harsh methods, Soufan said, Zubaydah stopped talking. When Soufan was asked to resume questioning, Zubaydah cooperated. After another round of more coercive techniques used by the contractors, however, Soufan said it was difficult for him to re-engage Zubaydah.
One of four recently released Bush administration memos showed that CIA interrogators used waterboarding at least 266 times on Zubaydah and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the suspected planner of the September 11 attacks.
"People were given misinformation, half-truths and false claims of successes; and reluctant intelligence officers were given instructions and assurances from higher authorities," Soufan testified.
"I wish to do my part to ensure that we never again use these ... techniques instead of the tried, tested and successful ones -- the ones that are also in sync with our values and moral character. Only by doing this will we defeat the terrorists as effectively and quickly as possible."

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/05/soufan_lawful_techniques_unlike_torture_got_key_in.php
Soufan: Lawful Techniques, Unlike Torture, Got Key Intel From Zubaydah
By Zachary Roth - May 13, 2009, 11:38AM
This is fascinating...
Sheldon Whitehouse is leading Ali Soufan through questioning. What Soufan is saying is that when he used lawful interrogation techniques agaist Zubaydah, he got actionable intelligence within an hour, including the identification of Khalid Sheik Mohamed as the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks.
However, when a contractor came in and began using harsher techniques, Zubaydah clammed up. It became clear that Zubaydah had received training on how to resist torture.


OT ...
This is an old thread and obviously, we have discovered that not only is torture illegal ... (the past administration tried to make it "legal"), but now we have found out through testimony that it did not in any way "save lives".
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 817
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/13/2009 9:48:21 PM
Again, until ALL the relevant memos are released that tell "both" sides of the story I'll reserve final judgment.

This also still doesn't answer the question about the other five techniques, and whether one feels they should be banned, too? If so, the next logical question would be what "is" acceptable?
 cotter

Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 818
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/14/2009 7:11:27 AM

Again, until ALL the relevant memos are released that tell "both" sides of the story ...
I'm thinking that the CIA may be scrambling to produce those so-called memos that show any relevancy. It's not easy to make your case when it's apparent (via the testimony of eye-witnesses) that in fact, the water boarding was counter productive.

I'll reserve final judgment.
I don't recall that anyone was putting pressure on people to pass any kind of judgment or express any kind of opinion.

But since that's what we do in here ... let's just say that there are lots of things that go into forming an opinion. In many cases, it's history and past behavior that often influences opinion. On the other hand ... there are those of us who are just waiting to see what develops.

We already know the water boarding occurred. Now we are waiting for some concrete evidence that it supposedly "saved lives". Making such a statement IMO appears to be in line with the previous administration of just another tactic of fear-mongering.

Using those words to say that it was effective and/or intimate that it was justified, still does not justify it. And in the end, that's all they're really trying to do. It's just a bunch of lawmakers trying to justify breaking the law in a horrific manner.

Apparently there are some humans ... you know, the ones who attempted to legalize torture, the ones who ordered the torture, the ones who implemented the torture, and now those who apparently feel the illegal torture was justified ... that just never progressed past the "animal" level.

How sad.

OT ...
This is an old thread. We are now finding out that water boarding really never saved any lives.
 Kaos86

Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 819
Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/14/2009 9:15:01 AM

Apparently there are some humans ... you know, the ones who attempted to legalize torture, the ones who ordered the torture, the ones who implemented the torture, and now those who apparently feel the illegal torture was justified ... that just never progressed past the "animal" level.

Yes including Nancy Pelosi.......

Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002
In Meetings, Spy Panels' Chiefs Did Not Protest, Officials Say
By Joby Warrick and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, December 9, 2007; Page A01

In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.

"The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough," said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664.html

So with ancy Pelosi present a member of her tour group asked the question "if the methods were tough enough".
Obviously they accepted the fact that the methods were necesary to saving US lives.
 kabiosile

Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 820
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/14/2009 11:30:45 AM


Obviously they accepted the fact that the methods were necesary to saving US lives.


Not at all. The use of torture is directly responsible for us getting into the Iraq situation which cost more than 4000 lives on our side and countless more on the Iraqi side. A man was tortures on behalf of the USA by Egypt the man told a lie to stop the torture and that lie was the lie Bush used to get us into the war.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/11/alshaykh-allibi-whose-fal_n_201904.html





Al-Shaykh Al-Libi, Whose False Confession Under Torture Tied Iraq To Al-Qaida, Found Dead In Libyan Jail: Reports



bradblog.com:

British journalist and historian Andy Worthington, an expert and author on Guantanamo, reports that the man who had supplied a key false tie between Iraq and al-Qaeda --- after being tortured in Egypt, where he had been rendered by the U.S. --- has died in a Libyan prison. "Dead of suicide in his cell," according to a Libyan newspaper.






In Egypt, he came up with the false allegation about connections between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein that was used by President Bush in a speech in Cincinnati on October 7, 2002, just days before Congress voted on a resolution authorizing the President to go to war against Iraq, in which, referring to the supposed threat posed by Saddam Hussein's regime, Bush said, "We've learned that Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb making and poisons and deadly gases."

Four months later, on February 5, 2003, Secretary of State Colin Powell made the same claim in his notorious speech to the UN Security Council, in an attempt to drum up support for the invasion. "I can trace the story of a senior terrorist operative telling how Iraq provided training in these [chemical and biological] weapons to al-Qaeda," Powell said, adding, "Fortunately, this operative is now detained, and he has told his story." As a Newsweek report in 2007 explained, Powell did not identify al-Libi by name, but CIA officials - and a Senate Intelligence Committee report - later confirmed that he was referring to al-Libi.

Al-Libi recanted his story in February 2004, when he was returned to the CIA's custody, and explained, as Newsweek described it, that he told his debriefers that "he initially told his interrogators that he 'knew nothing' about ties between Baghdad and Osama bin Laden and he 'had difficulty even coming up with a story' about a relationship between the two." The Newsweek report explained that "his answers displeased his interrogators - who then apparently subjected him to the mock burial. As al-Libi recounted, he was stuffed into a box less than 20 inches high. When the box was opened 17 hours later, al-Libi said he was given one final opportunity to 'tell the truth.' He was knocked to the floor and 'punched for 15 minutes.' It was only then that, al-Libi said, he made up the story about Iraqi weapons training."


Found that at bradblog.com


Once again torture is the most ineffective method of interrogation in the world. It more often than not causes people to say anything to stop it. There was also a canadian man whom was carted off to the middle east to be tortured from the false naming of him by another tortured man. That hit the news big time since it Canada also ended up involved and shamed in the mess.

Torture destroys lives.

Further to the poster whom has made accusations that I some how defend the terrorists. Get a grip. I am opposed to ALL whom perpetrate violence period that includes the terror groups. You only say such things because you do not like my message. You claim anyone whom disagrees with the course this nation has gone down somehow hates America.

Nothing could be further from the truth. If people like us hated America all we would have to do is stay silent and allow these people to drag us down this course of insanity without a word for this is the course of the destruction of this nation. It is bankrupting us, making us less safe and causing more enemies in the world. It is the path of pure foolishness. Torture, violence, and war, is sick. No one is going to join that cause with any bit of sanity.

I could care less whom is guilty as I said before they should be punished to the extent of their involvement. If Speaker Pelosi knew about it and failed to come forward she too should be sanctioned or punished in some way for not coming forward sooner. It will be nothing compared to the sentence I am certain the perpetrators and those whom gave the orders have coming.

She should be offered to turn witness for a lesser charge of course as is done in any case.

The people whom were responsible for these acts should not be allowed to hide behind political maneuverings. We must take a zero tolerance stand against torture if we wish to have any moral ground to stand on at all in order to have any chance of having foreign policy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvsvO9kvSdo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biGRQY67VOA&feature=channel

That man is a real interrogator dont believe the man of peace hear for yourself the words of a man in the business for decades. He tells you plain and simple that torture is not the way! He tells you perfectly clear torture only aids the enemy in recruiting. You make them a more glorious martyr to their cause.

I believe the people whom are condoning torture are simply being sadistic... You obviously are not thinking of the best interest of our nation here. If you were you too would wish to see these people punished for breaking our laws and making our nation less safe and getting us into a war based on the lies of a tortured man whom simply wished the pain to stop.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 821
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/14/2009 11:40:16 AM
Agree Kaos. I always found it hard to believe Pelosi didn't know. She either has very selective memory or she purposely chose to be frozen out. Even then, rumors of it had to be circulating around like crazy. Washington isn't known for keeping secrets since even a sieve has better filters.

Cotter, no one is for "legalizing" torture, but using interrogation techniques in very specific, measured, controlled environments in circumstances when time is of the essence and previous methods didn't work. No one is for the wholesale use of any of the enhanced techniques and you know it, so quit trying to portray it that way.

Kabiosile, I'll say it again, until all the pertinent memos are released telling the whole story, no one can say any of the EI methods used weren't successful.

I understand where the critics are coming from. The way any interrogation technique looks to the rest of the world certainly doesn't entail great press (the very fact we broadcast such things is telling). I also understand the outrage people have when we, as the so-called beacon of democratic freedom in the world, need to resort to the techniques when the mindset is we should act better than our enemies (as if their methods aren't infinitely worse).

We should be very proud we have a system in place that can expose abuse and ask such questions of ultimate propriety.

But the larger question is how to best deal with global terrorism. Capture and interrogation is one facet of our approach, which I think still extremely valuable and needed. If so, are "any" interrogation techniques off limits? Are we to be bound with self-imposed shackles the people bent on destroying us aren't? Are we to bow to critics who only see one side of the story, then tailor our policy to their wishes? Are we act with one hand tied behind our backs with the likely outcome of accepting more domestic terrorist attacks like 9-11, secure in the feeling that, well, at least we're "better" than them. You go tell that to the families of loved ones killed next time.

I happen to agree there should be some limits on what we can do in war (and we "are" at war, people, make no mistake). I also understand just as well that if we place too many limits it will dilute our ability to effectively deal with a vicious, smart, organized, fanatical enemy.
 kabiosile

Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 822
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/14/2009 11:57:17 AM


Kabiosile, I'll say it again, until all the pertinent memos are released telling the whole story, no one can say any of the EI methods used weren't successful.


No need we already know torture got us into Iraq more than 4000 dead on the US side alone. Torture is allowing these terror groups to recruit far more members due to the backlash it is causing that is many more whom are willing to take more lives that before might have thought those groups over there just a bunch of nuts.

These actions are aiding the enemy not hurting them. These cases of torture are strangling any chance the US had at all at combating these groups. These cases of torture are not saving lives they are costing lives in the extreme!

They are nothing more than a recruiting tool of the very groups our government is claiming they are against. So show me where they saved lives. I just showed you plenty where they cost us more than 4000 lives and our standing in the world. Is it worth it for those whom are for torture to get their sadistic kicks off of knowing one man was tortured? 4000+ of our young men and women dead, countless Iraqis dead not to count those whom are maimed for life! All over the lie of a tortured man being used by our president to go take care of a sick family vendetta. INSANITY!

They should all be given trials and dealt with through the legal system.

We are acting like we never learned a thing from history.

You do not oppose terror by spreading terror. War = Terror! Torture = terror. When you become the terrorist how can you claim to the world that you wish to stand with them opposed to it? The answer is obvious.... You cannot.

As much as I do not wish it to be so, or even to say it, the world would be correct to choose to treat us like North Korea right now for these actions. We have an indelible shame on our nation right now. The only chance we have at all for even a bit of redemption would be to have trials and show that we as a nation do not condone this garbage. We must find out whom is responsible for this and they should be if found guilty brought to justice.
 whiskeypapa

Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 823
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/14/2009 12:17:59 PM
How do you deal with global terrorism??? Stop terrorizing.

had the US not overthrown the Taraki government of Afghanistan there would be no Al-quida and no Taliban. Afghanistan would have been by now a progressive prosperous country.
Had the US not begun its' terrorist drone attacks in Pakistan the Swat Valley would still be a tourist attraction.
had the US not invaded Iraq the US would not have pawned the future of their grandchildren to enrich a few already bloated US corporations and there would not be so many dead and maimed US soldiers.
had the US not supported the oppression of the palestinians there could be a prosperous vibrant country there now.

there is an old saying: When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 824
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/14/2009 12:49:55 PM
In the interests of telling both sides .....

The CIA's Questioning Worked --> http://tinyurl.com/dzzvrz
By Marc A. Thiessen
Tuesday, April 21, 2009

In releasing highly classified documents on the CIA interrogation program last week, President Obama declared that the techniques used to question captured terrorists "did not make us safer." This is patently false. The proof is in the memos Obama made public -- in sections that have gone virtually unreported in the media.

Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques "led to the discovery of a KSM (Khalid Sheik Mohammed) plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles." KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast. The memo explains that "information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the 'Second Wave.' " In other words, without enhanced interrogations, there could be a hole in the ground in Los Angeles to match the one in New York.
......

The memo notes that "nterrogations of [Abu] Zubaydah -- again, once enhanced techniques were employed -- furnished detailed information regarding al Qaeda's 'organizational structure, key operatives, and modus operandi' and identified KSM as the mastermind of the September 11 attacks." This information helped the intelligence community plan the operation that captured KSM. It went on: "Zubaydah and KSM also supplied important information about al-Zarqawi and his network" in Iraq, which helped our operations against al-Qaeda in that country.

All this confirms information that I and others have described publicly. But just as the memo begins to describe previously undisclosed details of what enhanced interrogations achieved, the page is almost entirely blacked out. The Obama administration released pages of unredacted classified information on the techniques used to question captured terrorist leaders but pulled out its black marker when it came to the details of what those interrogations achieved.
_________________________________________________________

Again, we don't know the full story, not that it'll make a difference so some.
 kabiosile

Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 825
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 5/14/2009 1:08:31 PM


How do you deal with global terrorism??? Stop terrorizing.


Good start. There are other ways that do not involve violence that also would have been a better choice for taking on these groups than invading countries and playing into their hands.



had the US not overthrown the Taraki government of Afghanistan there would be no Al-quida and no Taliban. Afghanistan would have been by now a progressive prosperous country.
Had the US not begun its' terrorist drone attacks in Pakistan the Swat Valley would still be a tourist attraction.


Now here I have to disagree to a certain degree. We have no idea what would have happened had the US not made matters worse. I am not here to pin all of the blame on the USA because that also goes too far in the opposite direction from those whom try say the opposite. I simply want to say that we do have to look at what our governments actions had to do with making matters worse there. I agree it would have been more difficult for the groups there to get to the level of sophistication that they have obtained without the training, financial and weapons they were given by the US. I would not however say that the whole thing is the sole fault of the US actions. It is a bit deeper than that of course. My point in bringing those things up is that we must learn from our mistakes and we cannot do that by lying to ourselves and saying our governments actions have not contributed to the mess. Equally I think it not helpful to go to the opposite extreme.

It is what it is I only ask that we be realists when it comes to this.



had the US not invaded Iraq the US would not have pawned the future of their grandchildren to enrich a few already bloated US corporations and there would not be so many dead and maimed US soldiers.


Here I think nearly everyone will agree with you. That which happened in Iraq was complete foolishness through and through and many of us were screaming it at the top of our lungs before it ever happened.



there is an old saying: When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging.


Well said. So true but, so few today get it. The thing is many people are sold that the way for the US to solve problems is with violence since our nation has spent so much effort and funds in the direction of being efficient at destruction and war. It is said a nation is best at what they deem most important. We have to move in a direction that changes our value system in a serious way if we wish to be a nation that brings good things to the world again. We have the potential to be the beacon of freedom, hope and bring good things to the world. This nation has wonderful people in it whom wish to do good things. We also have the reverse potential and it all depends on what we the people are permitting to be sold as our values.

We need to wake up, and start seeing that the world has a chance to move past the era of violence that we have seen in the past. We have a chance to bring the world to a more peaceful way but, we have to set and example in that direction. Right now we are fast dragging the world back in the opposite direction by, our actions and our in my view foolish reactions to the actions and reactions of others..

We do not have to tell the rest of the world how horrible and useless war is. The memory is still fresh in their minds. We have to remind the people of our nation of it though.
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