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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 5/23/2009 2:44:06 PM | I thiught manfrommesa capped this thread nicely with his repost of message#13.
The books: The Cell, Looming Tower and the 9/11 commission report are good propaganda because while they have a lot of true information in them they all carry the message of the US as victim of a foul attack and totally justified in the retaliation they carried out.
The creation of Al-quida can be found in US interference in Afghanistan in the 70s and 80s ; islamic extremism is the direct reaction of the US support of israel and the US installed puppet dictators of Pakistan, Iran (prerevolution) Saudi Arabia and Egypt to name a few. None of this can be found in those books. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 5/23/2009 5:10:38 PM | whiskeypapa ..............
Butt
"I never knew you were a constitutional lawyer? "....
And
"Relevance to the topic at hand?"
Please stay on topic....
That topic is the issue that I want to address..... | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 5/24/2009 8:13:41 PM |
How do you know he/she is a terrorist. That's just it ... we don't know. Most of the prisoners that we have that the previous administration consider to be so-called "enemy combatants" were SOLD to the US. Wild exaggeration. There are any number of websites that show the US "BOUGHT" prisoners ... en mass.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0531-10.htm
AP: Gitmo Detainees Say They Were Sold They fed them well. The Pakistani tribesmen slaughtered a sheep in honor of their guests, Arabs and Chinese Muslims famished from fleeing U.S. bombing in the Afghan mountains. But their hosts had ulterior motives: to sell them to the Americans, said the men who are now prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
Bounties ranged from $3,000 to $25,000, the detainees testified during military tribunals, according to transcripts the U.S. government gave The Associated Press to comply with a Freedom of Information lawsuit.
A former CIA intelligence officer who helped lead the search for Osama bin Laden told AP the accounts sounded legitimate because U.S. allies regularly got money to help catch Taliban and al-Qaida fighters. Gary Schroen said he took a suitcase of $3 million in cash into Afghanistan himself to help supply and win over warlords to fight for U.S. Special Forces.
"It wouldn't surprise me if we paid rewards," said Schroen, who retired after 32 years in the CIA soon after the fall of Kabul in late 2001. He recently published the book "First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan."
Schroen said Afghan warlords like Gen. Rashid Dostum were among those who received bundles of notes. "It may be that we were giving rewards to people like Dostum because his guys were capturing a lot of Taliban and al-Qaida," he said.
Pakistan has handed hundreds of suspects to the Americans, but Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed told the AP, "No one has taken any money."
The U.S. departments of Defense, Justice and State and the Central Intelligence Agency also said they were unaware of bounty payments being made for random prisoners.
The U.S. Rewards for Justice program pays only for information that leads to the capture of suspected terrorists identified by name, said Steve Pike, a State Department spokesman. Some $57 million has been paid under the program, according to its web site.
It offers rewards up to $25 million for information leading to the capture of al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Strange how so very many others tell quite a different story ... eh? I guess it depends on what side you're standing on as to what story is told. How the hell would a so-called "Information Minister" have any idea what the tribal warlords were up to? Does anyone think he cares?
Read on ... and you will read about how in March 2002, Afghan intelligence offered rewards for the capture of Al Qaeda fighters — the day after a five-hour meeting with U.S. Special Forces. Apparently the offered reward was 150 million "Afghanis", then equivalent to $4,000 a head.
They apparently also passed out leaflets and made announcements promising some sort of "big prize" to people. One leaflet offered millions of dollars while helicopters broadcasst similar announcements over the Afghan mountains enticing people to "Hand over the Arabs and feed your families for a lifetime."
Remember all that neocon propaganda we kept hearing about how they were getting all those prisoners from the "battlefields" ... you know, after being in gun fights with them? As we are now finding out ... it was nothing more than "fear-mongering" ... making us believe our soldiers were picking these guys up in some sort of hand-to-hand combat situation. The whole time, they were just buying random prisoners from the Pakistanis. And we have people in here complaining about Al Qaeda and the terrorists not fighting a conventional war. Someone please tell me what is sooooo conventional about BUYING prisoners of war from a neighboring country and then sending them off to be tortured to confess to things that never existed so they can invade a sovereign nation.
But a wide variety of detainees at the U.S. lockup at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, alleged they were sold into capture. Their names and other identifying information were blacked out in the transcripts from the tribunals, which were held to determine whether prisoners were correctly classified as enemy combatants.
One detainee who said he was an Afghan refugee in Pakistan accused the country's intelligence service of trumping up evidence against him to get bounty money from the U.S.
"When I was in jail, they said I needed to pay them money and if I didn't pay them, they'd make up wrong accusations about me and sell me to the Americans and I'd definitely go to Cuba," he told the tribunal. "After that I was held for two months and 20 days in their detention, so they could make wrong accusations about me and my (censored), so they could sell us to you."
Another prisoner said he was on his way to Germany in 2001 when he was captured and sold for "a briefcase full of money" then flown to Afghanistan before being sent to Guantanamo.
"It's obvious. They knew Americans were looking for Arabs, so they captured Arabs and sold them — just like someone catches a fish and sells it," he said. The detainee said he was seized by "mafia" operatives somewhere in Europe and sold to Americans because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time — an Arab in a foreign country.
A detainee who said he was a Saudi businessman claimed, "The Pakistani police sold me for money to the Americans."
This was part of a roundup of all foreigners and Arabs in that area," of Pakistan near the Afghan border, he said, telling the tribunal he went to Pakistan in November 2001 to help Afghan refugees.
The military-appointed representative for one detainee — who said he was a Taliban fighter — said the prisoner told him he and his fellow fighters "were tricked into surrendering to Rashid Dostum's forces. Their agreement was that they would give up their arms and return home. But Dostum's forces sold them for money to the U.S."
Several detainees who appeared to be ethnic Chinese Muslims — known as Uighurs — described being betrayed by Pakistani tribesmen along with about 100 Arabs.
They said they went to Afghanistan for military training to fight for independence from China. When U.S. warplanes started bombing near their camp, they fled into the mountains near Tora Bora and hid for weeks, starving.
One detainee said they finally followed a group of Arabs, apparently fighters, being guided by an Afghan to the Pakistani border.
"We crossed into Pakistan and there were tribal people there, and they took us to their houses and they killed a sheep and cooked the meat and we ate," he said
That night, they were taken to a mosque, where about 100 Arabs also sheltered. After being fed bread and tea, they were told to leave in groups of 10, taken to a truck, and driven to a Pakistani prison. From there, they were handed to Americans and flown to Guantanamo.
"When we went to Pakistan the local people treated us like brothers and gave us good food and meat," said another detainee. But soon, he said, they were in prison in Pakistan where "we heard they sold us to the Pakistani authorities for $5,000 per person."
There have been reports of Arabs being sold to the Americans after the U.S.-led offensive in Afghanistan, but the testimonies offer the most detail from prisoners themselves.
In March 2002, the AP reported that Afghan intelligence offered rewards for the capture of Al Qaeda fighters — the day after a five-hour meeting with U.S. Special Forces. Intelligence officers refused to say if the two events were linked and if the United States was paying the offered reward of 150 million Afghanis, then equivalent to $4,000 a head.
That day, leaflets and loudspeaker announcements promised "the big prize" to those who turned in Al Qaeda fighters.
Said one leaflet: "You can receive millions of dollars. ... This is enough to take care of your family, your village, your tribe for the rest of your life — pay for livestock and doctors and school books and housing for all your people."
Helicopters broadcast similar announcements over the Afghan mountains, enticing people to "Hand over the Arabs and feed your families for a lifetime," said Najeeb al-Nauimi, a former Qatar justice minister and leader of a group of Arab lawyers representing nearly 100 detainees.
Al-Nauimi said a consortium of wealthy Arabs, including Saudis, told him they also bought back fellow citizens who had been captured by Pakistanis.
Khalid al-Odha, who started a group fighting to free 12 Kuwaiti detainees, said his imprisoned son, Fawzi, wrote him a letter from Guantanamo Bay about Kuwaitis being sold to the Americans in Afghanistan.
One Kuwaiti who was released, 26-year-old Nasser al-Mutairi, told al-Odha that interrogators said Dostum's forces sold them to the Pakistanis for $5,000 each, and the Pakistanis in turn sold them to the Americans.
"I also heard that Saudis were sold to the Saudi government by the Pakistanis," al-Odha said. "If I had known that, I would have gone and bought my son back." Perhaps someone could come up with some websites that proves the US actually "captured" these so-called "enemy combatants" on an actual "battlefield" as is always being shoved down our throats in all the neocon propaganda.
Every prisoner at Gitmo was NOT waterboarded. Not sure what that means or why that's even an issue. I don't recall seeing anyone in here write that "EVERY" prisoner was water boarded ...
... the CIA is charged with waterboarding three “terrorists” ... If one checks it out, there is information that there were more. As well, the names keep changing. But the following article is interesting ... it appears that there were many more than just the three.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-worthington/waterboarding-two-questi_b_85375.html
Waterboarding: Two Questions for Michael Hayden about Three "High-Value" Detainees Now in Guantanamo Andy Worthington Posted February 6, 2008 | 04:38 PM (EST) Firstly if it's true that only three detainees were subjected to waterboarding, then why did a number of "former and current intelligence officers and supervisors" tell ABC News in November 2005 that "a dozen top al-Qaeda targets incarcerated in isolation at secret locations on military bases in regions from Asia to Eastern Europe" were subjected to six "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques," instituted in mid-March 2002?
According to the ABC News account, the six techniques used by the CIA on the "dozen top al-Qaeda targets" were "The Attention Grab," "Attention Slap," "The Belly Slap" and three other techniques that are particularly worrying: "Long Time Standing," "The Cold Cell," and, of course, "Waterboarding."
"Long Time Standing" was described as "among the most effective [techniques]," in which prisoners "are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours." The ABC News report added, "Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions." In "The Cold Cell," the prisoner "is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water."
The description of "Waterboarding" was as follows: "The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt."
The article proceeded with recollections of the waterboarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who apparently "won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess" (the interrogators tried it on themselves, but "only lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in").
According to the ABC News report, one other detainee who was waterboarded was Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, the director of the Khaldan training camp in Afghanistan, who was captured in November 2001. His current whereabouts are unknown, although there are suspicions that he was finally delivered to the Libyan government. Having slipped off the radar, the government clearly does not want his case revived, not only because it may have to explain what has happened to him, but also because, as a result of the application of "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques," al-Libi claimed that Saddam Hussein had offered to train two al-Qaeda operatives in the use of chemical and biological weapons.
Al-Libi's "confession" led to President Bush declaring, in October 2002, "Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb making and poisons and gases," and his claims were, notoriously, included in Colin Powell's speech to the UN Security Council on February 5, 2003. The claims were of course, groundless, and were recanted by al-Libi in January 2004, but it took Dan Cloonan, a veteran FBI interrogator, who was resolutely opposed to the use of torture, to explain why they should never have been believed in the first place. Cloonan told Jane Mayer, "It was ridiculous for interrogators to think Libi would have known anything about Iraq... The reason they got bad information is that they beat it out of him. *****You never get good information from someone that way."*****
My second question for Mr. Hayden concerns an allegation made by Murat Kurnaz, the German detainee who was released from Guantanamo in August 2006. In an article in the Washington Spectator last July, focusing on Kurnaz's story, as described in his book Fünf Jahre Meines Lebens: Ein Bericht Aus Guantanamo (Five Years Of My Life: A Report From Guantanamo), the following passage came after Kurnaz's recollections of being hung by his wrists for "hours and days," interrupted only by a doctor who came to "check his vital signs to determine if he could withstand more enhanced interrogation," and his recollections of seeing, in the neighboring cell, another detainee who had died as a result of this ordeal:
Kurnaz said he was also subjected to waterboarding and electric shock. And that beatings were routine and constant. He theorizes that much of the torture was a result of the failure of the American soldiers and agents to capture any real terrorists in the initial sweeps. (He was told that he was sold to the Americans for $3,000 by Pakistani police, who identified him as a terrorist.) 'They didn't have any big fish. And they thought that by torture they could get one of us to say something. "I know Osama" or something like that. Then they could say they had a big fish.'
In light of the comments made by CIA sources in November 2005, and by Murat Kurnaz in his book, I can only wonder how it's feasible for Mr. Hayden to assert that the use of waterboarding was restricted to three of the 14 "high-value" detainees who were transferred to Guantanamo in September 2006, and, by extension, to claim that waterboarding was not used elsewhere in the "War on Terror" prisons; specifically, as Murat Kurnaz alleged, in one of the US prisons in Afghanistan, which, with Guantanamo, provided the template for the well-chronicled riot of torture and abuse that later migrated to Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
I note that on a previous list here, the name of Al Libi is missing as well as Kurnaz, yet we know for certain that the men were water boarded. What's with that?
... for information that could have avoided post-9-11 attacks. As has already been shown in here in previous posts, FBI agents were present as prisoners were tortured for information to show a connection/tie-in between Al Qaeda and Saddam.
While I don't question that government officials were obsessed (to say the least) with trying to convince us there would more attacks (AKA fear-mongering) and so also tried to "bleed" such information from the prisoners, it is clear from the testimonies of several FBI agents who were present at the questionings that they were torturing prisoners to reveal some sort of tie-in to between Al Qaeda and Saddam. I'm aware that there are those in here who probably wouldn't want to believe what a prisoner says, but at least the ones who are still alive (cough) are telling their stories.
The bottom line is ... The "C0ck" DESPERATELY needed some sort of confession to justify the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation.
OT ... TORTURING DID NOT SAVE LIVES. Think about all the lives that have been lost because of our illegal invasion of Iraq ... the lives of our soldiers, the civilians, all of their families who's lives will be forever changed because of it, not to mention all those who live through horrendous maiming and mutilation.
I encourage all in here to speak with others about this ... let them know what we are finding out. Let them know how prisoners were SOLD to the US and not really "captured" on the so-called "battlefield" as is always being shoved down our throats in the neocon propaganda. Let them know how they tortured a mentally ill prisoner, how they tortured a man into false confessions just so they could illegally invade a sovereign nation.
WE HAVE TO GET THE WORD OUT. We have to let as many people as possible know what the previous administration was really up to. We have to alert them to listen up and keep all of that in mind when they go to vote the next time. | |
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Kaos86
| Joined: 3/7/2007 Msg: 930 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/11/2009 6:33:06 AM | If the Interrogation techniques do not work than why is Hussein still using them....
According to the New York Observer, Rather describes the interview as "packed with details about Mr. Boumediene's alleged torture - from intravenous needles being jammed into his arms to stories of soldiers snapping photos of the inmate's painful transport to the detention center."
However, Boumediene's most controversial claim is that torture is still going on despite the change in administrations. "Nothing change in Guantanamo," he told the interviewer. "They torture me in the Obama time more than Bush." | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/11/2009 12:21:06 PM | http://www.aworldwithoutspin.com/?p=408
Hear how Dan Rather lets us know that the so-called torture was not about "torture associated with interrogation".
Boumediene has been on a hunger strike for over 2 1/2 years and Rather says that the torture Boumediene is talking about is in reality about him being force fed with needles. Basically, in Boumediene's opinion, he feels they try to make the process of feeding him as painful as possible.
As a nurse, I can say that if a person does not have an implanted port to access for such feeding purposes, eventually one runs out of access points on the human body and yes unfortunately, it does become more and more painful (for the patient) to have the procedure done. | |
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Kaos86
| Joined: 3/7/2007 Msg: 932 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/11/2009 12:33:51 PM | Homework should be made mandatory here...
http://www.prisonplanet.com/guantanamo-prisoners-still-being-tortured-under-obama.html
Wednesday, May 20, 2009
While torture under the Bush administration was horrible, at least it has stopped. Right?
Wrong.
Jeremy Scahill (the reporter who broke most of the stories on Blackwater) says that a military police unit at Guantanamo regularly brutalizes unarmed prisoners, including gang-beating them, breaking their bones, gouging their eyes and dousing them with chemicals.
Specifically, whenever there is “disobedience” by the detainees - which can include praying, or having 2 styrofoam cups in their cell instead of 1, or refusing medication or failing to immediately respond when spoken to - the “Immediate Reaction Force” (IRF) is sent in....
It is time for Hussein the Torturer to be tortured! | |
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Kaos86
| Joined: 3/7/2007 Msg: 934 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/11/2009 2:39:14 PM |
So if someone promotes or allows torture, they too should be tortured?
Oh I am sorry I was just paraphrasing your post of #760. Now you don't want the guilty tortured Not Obama Not Pelosi not even for sh1ts and giggles?
"Save an American, Torture a Terrorist Today!" | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/11/2009 3:55:46 PM | Re. Gitmo detainees being "sold" instead of captured.
Perhaps someone could come up with some websites that proves the US actually "captured" these so-called "enemy combatants" on an actual "battlefield" as is always being shoved down our throats in all the neocon propaganda.
Another flagrant distortion. Who said all prisoners in a war are "always" captured on a battlefield? The US, along with many other countries, have routinely paid rewards leading to the capture of suspected enemies. Bin Laden still has a $50 million reward for his capture.
Associated Press, March 20th, 2004 The US House of Representatives has voted unanimously to double the reward for Osama bin Laden's capture to $50 million.
The move came in connection with a broader bill that expanded the State Department's anti-terrorist rewards program to provide cash and other benefits for those helping authorities track down drug traffickers who back terrorist activities.
The bill, which was passed 414-0 (I guess the entire House of Representatives are those hated "neocons") on Thursday, now goes to the Senate. Kathryn Harris, a Florida Republican, said it recognised the growing link between the drug trade and the financing of terrorist activities.
The legislation also amends a 1956 law to raise the maximum amount of terrorist and narco-terrorist rewards from $5 million to $25 million.
The legislation gives the State Department flexibility to give out vehicles, appliances and other goods and to explore ways to best publicise the rewards program.
Mark Kirk, Republican, said the State Department rewards program has been used in the Balkans and in securing the capture of Aimal Khan Kasi, the Pakistani executed two years ago for killing two CIA staff.
The biggest reward paid was to the person who pointed US forces to Saddam Hussein's two sons, who were killed in a US attack. The reward was $15 million for each son, and the tipster received the bulk of the $30 million.
A $25 million reward was also posted for Saddam, but that money is not likely to be given out because he was located by the US military.
CNN, January 24, 2005:
... Last July, the State Department raised the bounty for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the accused terrorist mastermind in Iraq, from $10 million to $25 million.
On Monday, the al-Zarqawi group al Qaeda in Iraq claimed responsibility for a suicide car bomb in Baghdad, Iraq, at a checkpoint near the headquarters of interim Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi's party, according to an Internet statement. (Full story)
Officials said the State Department is reviewing whether to double the reward for bin Laden to $50 million, with the final decision to be made by incoming Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.
This month, the Rewards for Justice Program also launched an advertising campaign in Pakistan to publicize the existing reward for bin Laden.
Print ads in Urdu and Pashto languages have begun to run in Pakistani newspapers featuring photos and reward amounts for bin Laden, Taliban leader Mullah Omar and other Taliban and al Qaeda leaders.
The print ads will be followed by a broadcast ad blitz in cities and border areas where U.S. officials believe bin Laden is hiding.
"The people there are largely illiterate," said Rep. Mark Kirk, who wrote the legislation that would allow the doubling of the reward. "So we're going to back up this campaign with a radio campaign that is the primary way people find out about the world."
Kirk, an Illinois Republican, returned last week from a visit to Pakistan.
Officials said the scripts for the radio ads are being finalized, and that the ads should be running within 10 days to two weeks. A television ad campaign is also in development, the officials said.
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/11/2009 5:02:04 PM | The fundamental question critics continually gloss over is if they had responsibility to protect the American people from another 9-11, what would they do?
Instead I get a lot of loose terms being thrown around about “neocons” and the “Shrub’s” evil machinations to hoodwink and bamboozle the American public. Instead of concrete answers to my questions I get hyperbole and demagoguery about the Bush administration, as if they alone are responsible.
As we all fully remember (or should?), many policy decisions immediately following 9-11 had the full backing of Congress, and that means “both” Republicans and Democrats. Furthermore, the American public in poll after poll agreed with our tough stance against terrorism and voiced no undue concern or outrage over our methods. Most Americans wanted justice and revenge and didn't give a good God-da*n over how we got it.
I guess to some people’s thinking that would mean the whole country is one vast neocon-controlled wasteland of robotic-thinking droids, devoid of any redeeming qualities.
I reject that stupid thinking for obvious reasons of basic intelligence.
Even such a figure as Colin Powell, which NOBODY would consider a neocon and Bush lover, said that if another 9-11 happened a year after the first, no one (and he means “no one”) would have forgiven Bush for not doing everything he could to stop it. If “anything” came out later that we had terrorists in our custody that “could” have possessed even a whiff of knowledge of another plot, and we didn’t do everything within our power (which would include waterboarding) to get them to talk, Bush would have been roasted alive.
First we must agree on one very specific thing: Is terrorism a threat, and if so should we be “at war” with those whose very fiber is bent on our destruction. We can debate the methods used to fight, but we must first agree there’s a threat in the first place.
The evidence that there certainly IS a threat to be faced is given by recounting the string of terrorist actions against the US that go back much earlier than (but including) 9-11. The first WTC bombing, Khobar Towers, the African Embassy bombings, USS Cole, etc, is proof of such a point.
What evidence can anyone present “against” the proposition above? I’d like to see it and your reasoning behind it.
The Clinton administration fought terrorism as one of law enforcement, so never treated it with the sense of importance and urgency it demanded. I don’t blame Clinton, though, because he could have never foreseen something like 9-11 ever happening. It was so fantastic, in fact, that very few people outside our intelligence services could have even imagined something on the scale of a 9-11.
But 9-11 happened, and once it did it changed the game forever, from law enforcement to one of war. Not a conventional war by any means, since the combatants are not sanctioned by any one national, sovereign government and are instead a loose confederation of terrorist organizations that have amorphous, shadowy, decentralized ties, if any ties at all, but a war nonetheless. Plots have and are being conceptualized, planned, and organized against the US, and to think otherwise, or worse, pretend the threat is fantasy, is beyond irresponsible gullibility. It’s sheer stupidity. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/11/2009 7:51:38 PM | "The fundemental question critics continually gloss over is if they had responsibility to protect the American people from another 9-11 what would they do?"
I would begin to deal honestly and honourably with the people of the world. I would not invade sovereign countries to loot their resources. I would not lie to the UN as Colin Powell did. I would not build an army of Mujahadin to fight proxy wars then stab them in the back when I was done with them. I would not keep the people of the US in fear of the bogeyman--Al-quida, so that I would look like their saviour and protector. I would not allow another nation to direct my foreign policy so that it only benefits that other nation. I would not fund that other nation so that those funds could come back and corrupt my politicians so that they would have no choice but to turn a blind eye when they slaughtered innocents. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/11/2009 8:15:11 PM | The same tired thinking that everything is “our” fault and everyone else is blameless. In all the sentences you wrote the inescapable conclusion is we "deserve" everything we get, we should withdraw from the world and live in isolation for fear of doing "anything" that could piss someone off in the world, and we should lay prostrate in front of enemies and beg their "forgiveness" for any real or perceived injustices they feel we've done to them.
Your answers tell me that after another 9-11 you wouldn't go after the terrorists responsible, but would rather make excuses for their behavior by blaming America. I can only imagine how "that" would go over with the American public.
You better hope and pray Obama never has to face his own 9-11. If he does, will you blame him for “creating” it? Will he be the new scapegoat and you'll give yet another free pass to terrorist violence? Or will you come up with another boogeyman to lay blame at the feet of? Maybe Bush can come out of retirement, since his critics seem incapable of letting him go and continue to love beating a dead horse.
Obama has done everything he can to reach out to the Muslim world and still protect vital American interests (and that means all of “us”, you included). He in no way created or contributed to the litany of "wrongs" our terrorist friends feel so passionate about, yet he’s still the object of scorn and violent hate by al Qaeda and spokespersons like bin Laden, which just goes to show appeasing terrorists is no answer and should never be a cornerstone of national policy. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/11/2009 8:45:02 PM | The US doesn't have to withdraw from the world. It must deal honestly and honourably with the people of the world. Pay more attention to the Carnegie Council and less to the Council on Foreign Relations and you'll find that there will be fewer people out to get you back. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/12/2009 7:21:23 AM | I'm not talking about the CoFR or the Carnegie Council, but YOUR position, which you stated quite clearly.
What it shows is exactly what I wrote. If there's another 9-11 you wouldn’t protect your fellow Americans. You’d justify terrorist attacks against innocent victims by laying the blame at the feet of our government, which in this case, if you didn’t already know, is the Obama administration, not Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld.
You’d excuse attacks against ordinary citizens by agreeing with the terrorist position and identifying with their “cause” that America is more "evil" than those that attack us, so terrorists, no matter who they are and what they represent, have a perfectly legitimate ax to grind. There is no fuzzy gray here, at least on this point, but black and white.
To me, your position is completely unjustifiable and untenable. If you ran on that platform you'd never be elected president. Obama has done the smart thing by expressing the desire to mend fences with those that hate us, but he's also aware that as president he must represent and protect the people that elected him, the American public, and not kow-tow to terrorist threats and demands. In other words, he won't do the first at the expense of the second.
If we do get hit with another 9-11, I suspect he won't go on national tv and tell the American people we were wrong, our policies contributed to the attack, and we're to blame, not the terrorists. He'll strike back. He may not do it in full view, but he'll instruct our military and intelligence services to find the culprits, their bases, and their leaders, and take some action. Bet on it. When that happens, will you be the first on these boards eager to lambast him, ridicule our government, and excuse the terrorists? Please tell me otherwise. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/12/2009 10:12:46 AM |
I suspect he won't go on national tv and tell the American people we were wrong, our policies contributed to the attack, and we're to blame, not the terrorists. He'll strike back. He may not do it in full view, but he'll instruct our military and intelligence services to find the culprits, their bases, and their leaders, and take some action. Bet on it.
It's a double edged sword. One has to strike back at any attacker, while also looking into any possible/probable contributing factors for such an attack. Any nation has not only the right, but the obligation, to protect itself and retaliate if attacked. One simply has to look at the post Munich reaction of Israel to see how such a program can be quite effective, done properly. If one effectively targets and neutralizes the minds behind the planning of such attacks, they tend to become less popular.
At the same time, one cannot ignore the contributing factors of poverty, lack of education, and lack of hope. These are the petri dishes of terrorism, as are foreign political and economic control in a colonial sense. No cause gives anyone the right to kill innocent people, but some causes are also inherently just, and cannot be ignored as being so, regardless of the actions of some independent actors in the overall struggle.
It's a bit like weeding a garden. One takes out the current weeds, and then ensures the future seeds have less chance of germination. To fail to do so means one spends one's entire time weeding, and not looking at possible ways to reduce the time spent doing that.
If one does not fight the battle properly, especially if one betrays one's historical path and views of morale actions, then one creates far more problems in the long run. Against FAR stronger enemies ( Germany, Japan, Russia) the US never used torture or waterboarding. To do so now, against an enemy of far less power, is hypocritical. | |
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Kaos86
| Joined: 3/7/2007 Msg: 942 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/12/2009 11:03:13 AM | Obama will apologize just as he did in Europe and just as he did in the Middle East. He is attempting to rewrite history and is less than truthful in his apologies. When he recently admonished Muslims of regarding Womens Rights he tempered his statements by saying "Issues of women's equality are by no means simply an issue for Islam." Example? "The struggle for women's equality continues in many aspects of American life." To equate the beatings and stonings that women suffer in Muslim countries with unequal pay in US cities is at the very least deceitful and at the worst dangerous.
The same thing goes for the Interrogation methods. There is no comparison to be made of these methods(Yes even water boarding) and the be-headings that one can see on the internet.
It is simply not true that the US had not used water boarding in the past . It is an interrogation method that date back to the 14th century. The interrogation method was used by the Japanese in World War II, by U.S. troops in the Philippines and by the French in Algeria. In Cambodia, the Khmer Rogue used water boarding against its own people. The British used it against both Arabs and Jews in occupied Palestine in the 1930s. In the 1970s, it was widely used in Latin America, particularly under the military dictatorships in Chile and Argentina (where it was known as "Asian torture.") Also the US did not simply prosecute Japeanese prisoners for water boarding rather one soldier was sentenced to 15 years for brutalities which included water boarding.
Right or wrong it is important that history be reflected accurately regardless of Obamas apologies. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/12/2009 1:54:26 PM |
It is simply not true that the US had not used water boarding in the past .
Legally, and without prosecution of anyone doing it ? Please supply a citation.
It is an interrogation method that date back to the 14th century. The interrogation method was used by the Japanese in World War II, by U.S. troops in the Philippines and by the French in Algeria.
And, even at that time, it was viewed as an atrocity.
In military circles, it was considered torture :
As one counterinsurgency study noted:
Officially, the Army condemned the water cure, which fell under [General Order] 100's prohibition of torture. Unofficially, many officers winked at the practice, and military courts proved exceedingly reluctant to punish officers charged with applying coercive methods. As the war progressed the number of incidents of abuse grew as officers...came to believe that the “cure” was the only way to uproot the guerilla infrastructure. Even well-known champions of the policy of attraction... conceded that the water cure “might be a good thing if judiciously administered in occasional doses, provided that the antis [anti-imperialists] at home did not find it out.”
Andrew Birtle, U.S. Army Counterinsurgency and Contingency Operations Doctrine, 1860-1941, U.S. Army Center of Military History (1998)
As the French say, "the more things change....."
Spanish-American War
Major Edwin Glenn of the United States was suspended from command for one month and fined $50 for using the water cure. The Army judge advocate said the charges constituted "resort to torture with a view to extort a confession" and recommended disapproval because "the United States cannot afford to sanction the addition of torture."
Philippine-American War Water cure was among the forms of torture used by American soldiers on Filipinos during the Philippine-American War.President Theodore Roosevelt privately assured a friend that the water cure was "an old Filipino method of mild torture. Nobody was seriously damaged whereas the Filipinos had inflicted incredible tortures on our people." The President went further stating "Nevertheless, torture is not a thing that we can tolerate." However, a report at the time noted its lethality; "a soldier who was with General Funston had stated that he helped to administer the water cure to one hundred and sixty natives, all but twenty-six of whom died". See the Lodge Committee for detailed testimony of the use of the water cure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cure =========================================== On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post ran a front-page photo of a U.S. soldier supervising the waterboarding of a captured North Vietnamese soldier. The caption said the technique induced "a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk." The picture led to an Army investigation and, two months later, the court martial of the soldier.
Cases of waterboarding have occurred on U.S. soil, as well. In 1983, Texas Sheriff James Parker was charged, along with three of his deputies, for handcuffing prisoners to chairs, placing towels over their faces, and pouring water on the cloth until they gave what the officers considered to be confessions. The sheriff and his deputies were all convicted and sentenced to four years in prison.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834 ==========================================
See a pattern ?
[qupte] In Cambodia, the Khmer Rogue used water boarding against its own people. The British used it against both Arabs and Jews in occupied Palestine in the 1930s. In the 1970s, it was widely used in Latin America, particularly under the military dictatorships in Chile and Argentina (where it was known as "Asian torture.")
And this is relevant to American policy, how ?
Also the US did not simply prosecute Japeanese prisoners for water boarding rather one soldier was sentenced to 15 years for brutalities which included water boarding.
Totally wrong....
"McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as 'water cure,' 'water torture' and 'waterboarding,' according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning." Politifact went on to report, "A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps."
The folks at Politifact interviewed R. John Pritchard, the author of The Tokyo War Crimes Trial: The Complete Transcripts of the Proceedings of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. They also interviewed Yuma Totani, history professor at the University of Nevada-Las Vegas, and consulted the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law, which published a law review article entitled, "Drop by Drop: Forgetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts."
http://patriciashannon.blogspot.com/2009/04/us-executed-japanese-soldiers-for.html
The United States was not alone in prosecuting water torture before national tribunals, nor were the Japanese its sole practitioner. It is worth comparing those trials with Norway’s prosecution of German defendants for the same form of misconduct, and the United Kingdom’s trial and execution of Japanese interrogators who used the method.
DROP BY DROP: FORGETTING THE HISTORY OF WATER TORTURE IN U.S. COURTS
http://tinyurl.com/mf3kbb
Far from being some "minor point", it was in fact one of the main areas of testimony and punishment.
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Kaos86
| Joined: 3/7/2007 Msg: 944 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/12/2009 3:40:13 PM | Who said anything about legally and without prosecution.? You made that up. See a pattern here?
I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong, just trying to keep perspective. The US has had incidents of water boarding throughout most of this centuries wars. During the Spanish American war a U.S. soldier, Major Edwin Glenn, was suspended from command for one month and fined $50 for using "the water cure." Yet President Theodore Roosevelt defended the practice. "The enlisted men began to use the old Filipino method: the water cure," he wrote in a 1902 letter. "Nobody was seriously damaged." On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post ran a front-page photo of a U.S. soldier supervising the waterboarding of a captured North Vietnamese soldier. The caption said the technique induced "a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk." The picture led to an Army investigation and, two months later, the court martial of the soldier.
But remember the topic is "Ex-CIA agent: Water boarding saved lives". It's not a discussion of right or wrong but rather the outcomes. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/12/2009 4:18:45 PM |
It's not a discussion of right or wrong but rather the outcomes.
It's a discussion on the overall impact of waterboarding in regards to saving lives, and as such it's moral validity is certainly part of the discussion. Actions done by individuals illegally have zero bearing on national policy, especially when such policy is placed against a American historical record that has ALWAYS stood for humane treatment of prisoners under it's care - and the prosecution of those who did not follow such guidelines, even is the American military.
The Lieber Code - the forerunner to the Geneva Convention, was first proposed and implemented during the Civil War.
It was the first expressly codified law that expressly forbade giving "no quarter" to the enemy (killing prisoners of war), except in such cases when the survival of the unit that held these prisoners was threatened. It forbade the use of poisons, stating that use of such puts any force who uses them entirely outside the pale of the civilized nations and peoples; it forbade the use of torture to extract confessions, or for any purpose; it described the rights and duties of prisoners of war and of capturing forces. It described the state of war, the state of occupied territories, the ends of war, and discusses permissible and impermissible means to attain those ends; it discussed the nature of states and sovereignties, and insurrections, rebellions, and wars. As such, it is widely considered to be the first written recital of the customary law of war, in force between the civilized nations and peoples since time immemorial, and the precursor to the Hague Regulations of 1907, the treaty-based restatement of the customary law of war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieber_code
"In 1776," wrote historian David Hackett Fischer in "Washington's Crossing," "American leaders believed it was not enough to win the war. They also had to win in a way that was consistent with the values of their society and the principles of their cause. One of their greatest achievements … was to manage the war in a manner that was true to the expanding humanitarian ideals of the American Revolution."
The fact that the patriots refused to abandon these principles, even in the dark times when the war seemed lost, when the enemy controlled our cities and our ragged army was barefoot and starving, credits the character of Washington and the founding fathers and puts to shame the conduct of America's present leadership.
Fischer writes that leaders in both the Continental Congress and the Continental Army resolved that the War of Independence would be conducted with a respect for human rights. This was all the more extraordinary because these courtesies were not reciprocated by King George's armies. Indeed, the British conducted a deliberate campaign of atrocities against American soldiers and civilians. While Americans extended quarter to combatants as a matter of right and treated their prisoners with humanity, British regulars and German mercenaries were threatened by their own officers with severe punishment if they showed mercy to a surrendering American soldier. Captured Americans were tortured, starved and cruelly maltreated aboard prison ships.
Washington decided to behave differently. After capturing 1,000 Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, he ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting. In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren…. Provide everything necessary for them on the road."
John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement. "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this — Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy have prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."
Even British military leaders involved in the atrocities recognized their negative effects on the overall war effort. In 1778, Col. Charles Stuart wrote to his father, the Earl of Bute: "Wherever our armies have marched, wherever they have encamped, every species of barbarity has been executed. We planted an irrevocable hatred wherever we went, which neither time nor measure will be able to eradicate."
In the end, our founding fathers not only protected our national values, they defeated a militarily superior enemy. Indeed, it was their disciplined adherence to those values that helped them win a hopeless struggle against the best soldiers in Europe.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1217-30.htm
This is America's historical legacy, and it was not betrayed against far stronger enemies, in far darker times. Even Washington realized what was morally right and interestingly ....the British realized what was morally wrong.
Betray this, and things like the legacy of the Lieber code, and you betray basic American historical values.
The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.
Ronald Reagan signing statement, ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984
Torture is torture.
If one did not resort to in those dark days of the Revolution, nor in the Civil War that wrenched apart your nation, nor resort to it during WW2 against the Germans and Japanese, nor resort to it during the Cold War.....then using against this enemy to validate it is nonsensical.
This overall balance sheet is important to note. Even if a few lives were saved, and I've posted some citations in this thread that prove that I've not seen any real evidence of that when placed against what was known BEFORE these men were captured, what is the potential cost for radicalizing hundreds/thousands of people with immoral and illegal actions ?
If some future 9/11 type event is carried out, and the people behind it were driven into the fold by this torture of detained individuals, will you also then add whatever the death toll in your database ? | |
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Kaos86
| Joined: 3/7/2007 Msg: 946 | |
| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/12/2009 5:26:26 PM | Thats fine if you want to frame your discussion that way I have no problem with ideas just don't put words into my messages that I did not type. It was done in WWII, Spanish American war, Vietnam by US soldiers or interrogators. I would prefer to prosecute leaders who did not do whatever was necessary to get the information to save lives. There is no sympathy for terrorists. You can deny the truth all you want but all the actions taken after 911 kept us safe. Your so called claim of the "Ticking Time Bomb" myth has been disproved so don't lecture me on morals till you have the courage to watch the video of Daniel Pearl being decapitated.
btw... I am Canadian... not American! | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/13/2009 1:11:25 AM |
At the same time, one cannot ignore the contributing factors of poverty, lack of education, and lack of hope. These are the petri dishes of terrorism, as are foreign political and economic control in a colonial sense. No cause gives anyone the right to kill innocent people, but some causes are also inherently just, and cannot be ignored as being so, regardless of the actions of some independent actors in the overall struggle.
This “petri dish” of terrorism has been around for a long time, since the age of the Pharaohs and the time of Caesar. The global conquests of the British Empire, and European colonialism in general, has caused more ethnic destruction and created more homegrown terrorism than the entire history of the United States, but I don’t hear a lot of people talking about going after Europeans with the religious fervor modern terrorists reserve for America.
Bottom line is people can try to understand (in fact it’s vital) and maybe even empathize with the circumstances that created someone that is pledged to kill you, but that doesn’t extend to leaving yourself defenseless or unilaterally taking retaliation off the table. All that does, as been shown time immemorial, is give an unscrupulous, vicious, and radical enemy open access to your throat. In the end, they don’t give a damn about Geneva Conventions or who has more moral standing and certitude.
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/13/2009 8:46:04 AM | It seems unclear who the uncrupulous and vicious enemy who doesn't give a damn about Geneva Conventions is being discussed here.... After all it was the US who invaded and laid waste to two soveriegn countries and is in the process of attacking a third.
It seems risible that after slaughtering over a million people and terrorizing millions more with death squads and drone attacks in the night that one would claim high moral standing and certitude. | |
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/13/2009 9:18:47 AM |
It seems risible that after slaughtering over a million people and terrorizing millions more with death squads and drone attacks in the night that one would claim high moral standing and certitude.
Just "who" are you talking about here? If you're speaking of Iraq there is no way the US military "slaughtered" and "terrorized" a million Iraqis.
Iraqi's have killed and terrorized "each other" by the tens of thousands in an orgy of vengeful and partisan ethnic and religious violence, but that's not the American military, is it? To even group the two in the same sentence is a complete distortion and just shows how biased and prejudiced one is against our military.
Our military men and women are trying to do an almost impossible task in hellish conditions under the stress and strain of multiple tours. They certainly don't need to be ridiculed and demonized and grouped in the same breath as militant Iraqi Sunni and Shia death squads. To do so is completely irresponsible, spiteful, and disgusting.
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| Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives' Posted: 6/13/2009 9:28:26 AM |
The books: The Cell, Looming Tower and the 9/11 commission report are good propaganda because while they have a lot of true information in them they all carry the message of the US as victim of a foul attack and totally justified in the retaliation they carried out.
Completely unbelievable the lengths "some" people go to discredit perfectly legitimate sources of information.
Btw, have you ever even "read" those books? The Looming Tower won a PULITZER PRIZE for literary excellence! Just how is that "propaganda"???
And just how is the 9-11 Commission Report, which was written by a BI-PARTISAN group of investigators with no agenda to manipulate, tainted as unworthy in your eyes?
What books would you recommend instead? I'd like to hear them and investigate the authors to see how partisan "they" are.
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