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 Author Thread: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
 Fandango!

Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 1001
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 6/30/2009 12:18:45 AM
Whiskypapa
Yes, I was taken aback but the Moyers article but it is indeed slanted to transfer blame for the development of the Mujahideen from the US to Bin Laden.


Let's get this straight Whiskypapa. As soon as the Soviet Union entered Afghanistan, there was resistance. That resistance was known as the Mujahadeen. This became a central rallying point for radical Islamists around the world and, a focus on which countries such as Saudi Arabia who had problems with radicals to find a way to ship them out so they wouldn't be so pesky at home and, all the while, look like they were really devout Muslims. Hence, most of the money came from the Middle East as well as China, Iran and Pakistan. The US and Europe, still fighting the Soviets in the cold war, kicked in expertise and money in a heartbeat.

And yes, the US helped them by supplying weapons and bribes as well as some training to use those weapons. All to help fight a nuclear armed force such as the Soviet Union bent on domination of Europe and Asia. I turn, Osama and his fellows accepted those weapons and training to defeat an enemy. Much the same way as russia accepted US aid to defeat the Germans in WWII and then became a force to be reckoned with.

OBL was 23, not a leader and, not a fighter however, he helped raise funds and later, once the war was over and half of the countries that sent these radicals to the wilderness didn't want them back to stir up trouble at home, helped found Al Qaeda. AQ was never a certainty. In fact, either was the Taliban but for their ability to fight and, with a lot of luck. Together, they beat out the other factions and became 'the Base' and 'the Pious Students.' Nobody in the Mujahadeen was on the 'CIA payroll' however. To be discovered profiting like that would be a death sentence.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 1002
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 6/30/2009 11:06:25 AM
^^^ Agree with Fan. The CIA funded many groups that either disliked or fought openly against the Soviets over "decades", not just during the Soviet War in Afghanistan during the 80's. The context was the Cold War and the thinking was the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Like Fan just wrote and I mentioned a few pages ago, we have no better example of this in practice than how the allies helped the Soviets defeat Hitler in WW2. Certainly Churchill knew it was a devil's bargain and Stalin was a monster; in many ways no better than Hitler, but he was shrewd enough to know Hitler was the bigger threat at the time and needed to be stopped first, so threw his support behind the Soviets. Roosevelt was also under no illusion about the nature of Stalinist Russia, but he thought he "control" Uncle Joe enough to win the war and lay the foundation for post-hostilities democracy in Eastern Europe. Right before Roosevelt died he was in the process of finally coming to grips that no one can politically out-maneuver so canny and ruthless a dictator like Stalin, and would have almost certainly followed Churchill's hard line after the war had he lived.

Back to Bin Laden. The critics make it sound like he "alone" was singled out for special training and treatment by the CIA? A kind of personal pet project that had the highest clearance from the highest levels of the US government. Nonsense. He was just another face in countless thousands of mujahideen that benefited from the financial and military largesse of many nations, not just the US. To portray it otherwise is a complete distortion of the facts.
 Fandango!

Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 1003
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/1/2009 12:03:26 AM
One thing that Osama and the USA agree with is that he was not working for the US. If he were ever proven to have done so it would make him an Apostate and subject to death at the hands of his followers.

Only morons make this connection.
 kabiosile

Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 1004
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/2/2009 12:59:06 PM


One thing that Osama and the USA agree with is that he was not working for the US. If he were ever proven to have done so it would make him an Apostate and subject to death at the hands of his followers.


Laughable.

I am certain neither of us are experts on what his people would think but, it seems to me they might also just as likely think him even smarter/glorious leader by using the USA to take their money and weapons to help with immediate problems and then turn it against them later.

If they were concerned about him being an Apostate he would have never gotten the thing rolling in the first place. He and his family have been "Apostates" from the beginning.

I believe he is nothing more really than a figure head and one of the ways they got some of their money. (I would not doubt it if he is already passed away from cancer to be completely honest.)

The Bin Laden family have long had very close ties to people like the Bush family and other western oligarchy.. Osama was born an "apostate." They obviously could care less about all of that. Groups use these religious argument to control their masses much like other extremist Christian groups do. There is no getting around the fact that Osama was born an apostate and he worked with the covert side of the USA. To what extent etc can be argued but, you can't just go revising the history because it is inconvenient now..

I remember quite well president Reagan pronouncing that the USA will aid the mujaheddin whom he called "freedom fighters." Now people try to cover it up and down play it because they are likely to be busted red handed profiteering.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 1005
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/2/2009 2:50:28 PM
Please supply verifiable "PROOF" Bin Laden is really a US spy and has been on the government payroll all this time?

Just because the Bush family has strong ties with a "few" members of a very LARGE Bin Laden family doesn't prove the connection. Many government and business officials, past and present, throughout the world also have strong ties with the family. Why? Because the family is one of the wealthiest and most politically connected in the Arab world, and as such has forged numerous, global relationships. Are they all part of Osama’s terrorist network, too???

Furthermore, just because Osama is part of the wider family by birth doesn’t implicate the rest of the family by the guilt of association, does it? If you had a fifth cousin in jail because of stealing, does that give me the right to label you a crook, too?

Re. Bin Laden’s extended family, some background is in order.

The bin Laden family, also spelled bin Ladin, is a wealthy family intimately connected with the innermost circles of the Saudi royal family. The family was thrown into media spotlight through the activities of one of its members, Osama bin Laden. The financial interests of the bin Laden family are represented by the Saudi Binladin Group, a global construction and equity management conglomerate grossing $5 billion U.S. dollars annually, and one of the largest construction firms in the Islamic world, with offices in London and Geneva. According to an American diplomat, the bin Laden family also owns part of Microsoft and Boeing.

The family traces its origins to a poor, uneducated Yemenite, Sheikh Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden (died 1967). Mohammed bin Laden was a native of the Shafi`i (Sunni) Hadhramaut coast in southern Yemen and emigrated to Saudi Arabia prior to World War I. He set up a construction company and came to Abdul Aziz ibn Saud's attention through construction projects, later being awarded contracts for major renovations at Mecca, where he made his initial fortune from exclusive rights to all mosque and other religious building construction not only in Saudi Arabia, but as far as Ibn Saud's influence reached. Until his death, Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden had exclusive control over restorations at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. Soon the bin Laden corporate network extended far beyond construction sites.

Mohammed's special intimacy with the monarchy was inherited by the younger bin Laden generation. Mohammed's sons attended Victoria College, Alexandria, Egypt. Their schoolmates included King Hussein of Jordan, Zaid Al Rifai, the Kashoggi brothers (whose father was one of the king's physicians), Kamal Adham (who ran the General Intelligence Directorate under King Faisal), present-day contractors Mohammed Al Attas, Fahd Shobokshi and Ghassan Sakr and actor Omar Sharif.

When Mohammed bin Laden died in 1967, his son Salem bin Laden took over the family enterprises, until his own accidental death in 1988. Salem was one of at least 54 children by various wives.

American and European intelligence officials estimate that all the relatives of the family may number as much as 600 (did you hear that - 600!). In 1994, the bin Laden family disowned Osama and the Saudi government revoked his passport. The Saudi government also stripped Osama bin Laden of his citizenship, for publicly speaking out against them, after they permitted U.S. troops to be based in Saudi Arabia in preparation for the 1991 Gulf War.

The groupings of the family, based on the nationalities of the wives, include the most prominent "Saudi group", a "Syrian group", a "Lebanese group," and an "Egyptian group". The Egyptian group employs 40,000 people as that country's largest private foreign investor. Osama bin Laden was born the only son of Muhammed bin Laden's tenth wife, Hamida al-Attas, who was of Syria origin, making Osama a member of the Syrian group.

As anyone can see, the bin Laden family is rather extensive and has some very complex roots. But the critics waste no time in making absurd extrapolations and fantastic assumptions about the Bush family being in cahoots with Osama simply by virtue of its friendship with other bin Laden family members. Nice try, but no cigar.

Finally, if Osama's terrorists worshippers ever found out he had "any" ties with the US government he would be assassinated on the spot.
 Fandango!

Joined: 4/20/2009
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/2/2009 6:16:50 PM
An expert;

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/08/15/bergen.answers/index.html


BERGEN: This is one of those things where you cannot put it out of its misery.

The story about bin Laden and the CIA -- that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden -- is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently.

The real story here is the CIA didn't really have a clue about who this guy was until 1996 when they set up a unit to really start tracking him.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 1007
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/2/2009 7:12:31 PM
Fan, as with all loony conspiracy theorists, they will go and run to their favorite conspiracy web sites and copy/paste reams of what they think is irrefutable “evidence” of the connection. In reality, all they’re supplying is outright lies, recycled propaganda discredited years ago, out-of-context quotes, innuendo, real facts shoe-horned together in such a way as to look “damning”, and pet theories masquerading as the “Truth”.
 whiskeypapa

Joined: 5/19/2008
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/4/2009 10:21:00 AM
Bin Laden is basically a redherring to distract from the cause of all the trouble in Eurasia. The US created and funded the Mujhideen to destroy the Taraki government simply because they felt a stable government would be to difficult to bend to the will of the US oligarchies. Brzerinski openly admitted that he did not think the fanatics they recruited would develop into much of a threat, a classic case of blowback.

The Af-Pak war is ambitious . The US wants to pacify the South of Afghanistan so that the TAP pipeline can be built. They want to subdue Baluckistan to gain access to its riches (natural gas, oil, uranium and copper) and get a port on the Arabian Sea. The US is not in Eurasia to import the ideals of democracy, it is there for the loot, plain and simple.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/4/2009 11:42:49 AM
^^^ Now wait a minute, couldn’t I use the same argument for Vietnam? That it was really the Soviets and the Chinese who are responsible for US intervention by fomenting American outrage with their backing of arms and other material aid to the Vietcong? Using your logic, I could easily say it was North Vietnam’s interference and infiltration in the South, backed by military aid by the Soviets and Chinese, that stoked US fears of a total communist takeover and "provoked" US actions? They were the reasons that “pushed” LBJ into escalation? We didn't create the Vietnam War, we were "goaded" into it by Soviet interference! Looking at it "your" way lets the US off the hook of responsibility and throws all the blame on the communists? Is that how you want to play this? It means the Vietnam fiasco wasn’t our fault ...Whooppee! I'll trade responsibility for Vietnam with Afghanistan any day...lol.

Hopefully you see the problem with your logic?


TAP pipeline can be built…they want to subdue Baluckistan…. (we’re) there for the loot, plain and simple


Not that frickin’ pipeline argument again? Who are "they"?? More conspiracy garbage. I didn’t believe it then and certainly don’t now. Obama isn’t Bush, remember? Bush and his “cronies” aren’t in office anymore, so just “who” are the ones pushing for the pipeline "now"? Proof. I need names, Obama administration policy statements, and independent analysis to back up your claim.
 whiskeypapa

Joined: 5/19/2008
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/4/2009 1:18:18 PM
Inserting Vietnam into the discussion is just another redherring.

The "they" I mentioned are the US oligarchies from the previous paragraph.

For an independent analysis regarding pipelines in Euroasia look up Pepe Escobar writing for the Asia Times 26 March 2009.

Eric Margolis and the crowd at antiwardotcom are another source for analysis of the Afghanistan and Pakistan conflicts.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/4/2009 1:33:10 PM
Vietnam IS practical and germane to a point "you" brought up, not me, so don't now try to back out and avoid facing your own logic.

Asia Times? Antiwar.com? I said supply direct proof that Obama is directly involved in a pipeline for profit scheme? Give me names of those involved in the "conspiracy" and evidence Obama will handsomely profit from it, not regurgitated, recycled stories or web sites with an ax to grind and an agenda to promote?

Btw, here is some background of Justin Raimondo, who runs antiwar.com:

Major ideas and recurring themes

Several themes recur regularly in Raimondo's writing, mostly derived from his libertarian ideological roots. He strongly opposes the Israeli occupation of Palestine. He believes that initiatory war is wrong, immoral, and counterproductive, that a small group of neoconservatives in both major American political parties have been responsible for "lying us into war" repeatedly, and that the ideals of the Old Right conservative movement have been consistently sold out since around the time of the Vietnam War, when neoconservatives united with religious conservatives to pursue an expansive foreign policy, often in support of Israel.

Long before John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt argued that Israel exerts a dominant force in the formulation of American foreign policy (see The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy), Raimondo was essentially saying the same thing. Raimondo also believes the United States was led into World War II through lies by President Franklin D. Roosevelt and that the US provoked a war with Japan deliberately through economic sanctions. Raimondo's views have been compared by Christopher Hitchens to those of Charles Lindbergh, whom Raimondo describes as an "American hero sprung from the heartland." However, it seems clear that Raimondo does not endorse Lindbergh's Des Moines speech in which the famous aviator decried Jewish influence on the media. Raimondo has also written repeatedly about the Israeli Art Student conspiracy and he has written that elements of Israeli intelligence operating in the U.S. had advance knowledge of the September 11, 2001 attacks.

Raimondo is openly gay, but as a libertarian, he believes the government should refrain from adopting laws that would prohibit discrimination against gays. He believes gays have a right to discriminate against non-gays. He also is against gay marriage, both mocking the idea that gays should adopt a heterosexual model of sexual and emotional relationships, and noting that as a libertarian he opposes "State incursion into such private matters." He also has written that after years of persecution by the state gay rights activists want to "use the battering ram of government power" to actively intervene on behalf of homosexuals.

He describes himself as a "conservative-paleo-libertarian." (Huh??)

To me, Raimondo is a crackpot conspirist cut from the same cloth as all the other conspiracy loonies, has an agenda to promote, and as such is NOT an evenhanded, impartial, fair, non-partisan commentator on the subjects discussed here. The context and background of the messenger is extremely important, so watch who you use as a source.
 Fandango!

Joined: 4/20/2009
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/4/2009 8:55:48 PM
Whiskypapa
The US created and funded the Mujhideen


Holy! Don't you think 'created' and 'funded' without mentioning the scores of Afghan, Pakistani, Tajik factions as well as the tens of thousands of west hating radicals from all over the Middle East involved along with the supporting nations of Asia and Europe is a bit strong? So, if what you say is true, when the Soviets invaded, everybody in Afghanistan sat around waiting for an American, any American, somebody, anybody to parachute in and show them the way? Then, once they agreed to allowing them to fight for the USA, they sat around once again and waited for payroll to show up and have them sign up for their benefit packages, then, wait once more for guns and ammo to arrive.

I think a more plausible reality is that the Mujhideen existed from the git go and the Arab world used this as a Muslim uniting cause and fired money, arms and recruits at it. The US, China, Pakistan and a host of others saw it was against their nemesis the USSR and gladly jumped in anyway they could. So, your statement should, I believe, read 'The US helped fund and sustain the Mujhideen.'

To say 'created' takes everything away from Islam in this struggle. Something I would expect few, Osama Bin Laden as well as all of the Muslim world would agree with you on.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/4/2009 11:27:28 PM
No, Fan, to people like whiskey and the like, the US alone is responsible for all the evil in the world. WE created/invented the mujahideen, WE created the Taliban, WE created bin Laden, WE created the terrorists that struck on 9-11 (that is when they're not busy frothing at the mouth and falling over themselves saying terrorists had nothing to do with it, that it was an "inside job" by our own government, military, and business interests -- sniveling nonsense from idiots that couldn't see a terrorist if he/she stuck an AK-47 up their butt). WE created the present troubles in Pakistan. There is no level they will stoop to in throwing all blame on America, and then apologize for, appease, forgive, sympathize, enable, and explain away the culpability of the perpetrators of 9-11, and all the other terrorist acts that preceded it. They didn't attack us, they were "pushed" into it by our evil policies?? That's it, right whiskey? They don't like us because we had the audacity to be "mean" to them? Boo Hoo! We should bow down at the feet of terrorists and ask their forgiveness for "provoking" them into attacking us! What kind of bizarro, upside-down world are critics living in? Moreover, they are "still" giving terrorists a free ride on the backs of "evil" Bush and now, what, "evil" Obama??? The stupidity and irrational hatred for America will never end for these people, and they use it as a springboard to justify the most outrageous lies and "theories" to prove their points.
 Outdoor2

Joined: 4/1/2006
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/4/2009 11:50:10 PM

Liquid war: Welcome to Pipelineistan
By Pepe Escobar

What happens on the immense battlefield for the control of Eurasia will provide the ultimate plot line in the tumultuous rush towards a new, polycentric world order, also known as the New Great Game.

Our good ol' friend the nonsensical "global war on terror", which the Pentagon has slyly rebranded "the Long War", sports a far more important, if half-hidden, twin - a global energy war. I like to think of it as the Liquid War, because its bloodstream is the pipelines that crisscross the potential imperial battlefields of the planet. Put another way, if its crucial embattled frontier these days is the Caspian Basin, the whole of Eurasia is its chessboard. Think of it, geographically, as Pipelineistan.

All geopolitical junkies need a fix. Since the second half of the



1990s, I've been hooked on pipelines. I've crossed the Caspian in an Azeri cargo ship just to follow the $4 billion Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan pipeline, better known in this chess game by its acronym, BTC, through the Caucasus. (Oh, by the way, the map of Pipelineistan is chicken-scratched with acronyms, so get used to them!)

I've also trekked various of the overlapping modern Silk Roads, or perhaps Silk Pipelines, of possible future energy flows from Shanghai to Istanbul, annotating my own do-it-yourself routes for LNG (liquefied natural gas). I used to avidly follow the adventures of that once-but-not-future Sun-King of Central Asia, the now deceased Turkmenbashi or "leader of the Turkmen", Saparmurat Niyazov, head of the immensely gas-rich Republic of Turkmenistan, as if he were a Conradian hero.

In Almaty, the former capital of Kazakhstan (before it was moved to Astana, in the middle of the middle of nowhere) the locals were puzzled when I expressed an overwhelming urge to drive to that country's oil boomtown Aktau. ("Why? There's nothing there.") Entering the Space Odyssey-style map room at the Russian energy giant Gazprom's headquarters in Moscow - which digitally details every single pipeline in Eurasia - or the National Iranian Oil Company (NIOC)'s corporate HQ in Tehran, with its neat rows of female experts in full chador, was my equivalent of entering Aladdin's cave. And never reading the words "Afghanistan" and "oil" in the same sentence is still a source of endless amusement for me.

Last year, oil cost a king's ransom. This year, it's relatively cheap. But don't be fooled. Price isn't the point here. Like it or not, energy is still what everyone who's anyone wants to get their hands on. So consider this dispatch just the first installment in a long, long tale of some of the moves that have been, or will be, made in the maddeningly complex New Great Game, which goes on unceasingly, no matter what else muscles into the headlines this week.

Forget the mainstream media's obsession with al-Qaeda, Osama "dead or alive" bin Laden, the Taliban - neo, light or classic - or that "war on terror", whatever name it goes by. These are diversions compared to the high-stakes, hardcore geopolitical game that follows what flows along the pipelines of the planet.

Who said Pipelineistan couldn't be fun?

Calling Dr Zbig In his 1997 magnum opus The Grand Chessboard, Zbigniew Brzezinski - realpolitik practitioner extraordinaire and former national security advisor to Jimmy Carter, the president who launched the US on its modern energy wars - laid out in some detail just how to hang on to American "global primacy". Later, his master plan would be duly copied by that lethal bunch of Dr No's congregated at Bill Kristol's Project for a New American Century (PNAC, in case you'd forgotten the acronym since its website and its followers went down).

For Dr Zbig, who, like me, gets his fix from Eurasia - from, that is, thinking big - it all boils down to fostering the emergence of just the right set of "strategically compatible partners" for Washington in places where energy flows are strongest. This, as he so politely put it back then, should be done to shape "a more cooperative trans-Eurasian security system".

By now, Dr Zbig - among whose fans is evidently President Barack Obama - must have noticed that the Eurasian train which was to deliver the energy goods has been slightly derailed. The Asian part of Eurasia, it seems, begs to differ.

Global financial crisis or not, oil and natural gas are the long-term keys to an inexorable transfer of economic power from the West to Asia. Those who control Pipelineistan - and despite all the dreaming and planning that's gone on there, it's unlikely to be Washington - will have the upper hand in whatever is to come, and there's not a terrorist in the world, or even a "long war", that can change that.

Energy expert Michael Klare has been instrumental in identifying the key vectors in the wild, ongoing global scramble for power over Pipelineistan. These range from the increasing scarcity (and difficulty of reaching) primary energy supplies to "the painfully slow development of energy alternatives". Though you may not have noticed, the first skirmishes in Pipelineistan's Liquid War are already on, and even in the worst of economic times, the risk mounts constantly, given the relentless competition between the West and Asia, be it in the Middle East, in the Caspian theater, or in African oil-rich states like Angola, Nigeria and Sudan.

In these early skirmishes of the 21st century, China reacted swiftly indeed. Even before the attacks of September 11, 2001, its leaders were formulating a response to what they saw as the reptilian encroachment of the West on the oil and gas lands of Central Asia, especially in the Caspian Sea region. To be specific, in June 2001, its leaders joined with Russia's to form the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. It's known as the SCO and that's an acronym you should memorize. It's going to be around for a while.

Back then, the SCO's junior members were, tellingly enough, the Stans, the energy-rich former SSRs of the Soviet Union - Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Tajikistan - which the Bill Clinton administration and then the new George W Bush administration, run by those former energy men, had been eyeing covetously. The organization was to be a multi-layered economic and military regional cooperation society that, as both the Chinese and the Russians saw it, would function as a kind of security blanket around the upper rim of Afghanistan.

Iran is, of course, a crucial energy node of West Asia and that country's leaders, too, would prove no slouches when it came to the New Great Game. It needs at least $200 billion in foreign investment to truly modernize its fabulous oil and gas reserves - and thus sell much more to the West than US-imposed sanctions now allow.

No wonder Iran soon became a target in Washington. No wonder an air assault on that country remains the ultimate wet dream of assorted Likudniks as well as former vice president****("Angler") Cheney and his neo-conservative chamberlains and comrades-in-arms. As seen by the elite from Tehran and Delhi to Beijing and Moscow, such a US attack, now likely off the radar screen until at least 2012, would be a war not only against Russia and China, but against the whole project of Asian integration that the SCO is coming to represent.

Global BRIC-a-brac
Meanwhile, as the Obama administration tries to sort out its Iranian, Afghan, and Central Asian policies, Beijing continues to dream of a secure, fast-flowing, energy version of the old Silk Road, extending from the Caspian Basin (the energy-rich Stans plus Iran and Russia) to Xinjiang province, its Far West.

The SCO has expanded its aims and scope since 2001. Today, Iran, India, and Pakistan enjoy "observer status" in an organization that increasingly aims to control and protect not just regional energy supplies, but Pipelineistan in every direction. This is, of course, the role the Washington ruling elite would like the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) to play across Eurasia. Given that Russia and China expect the SCO to play a similar role across Asia, clashes of various sorts are inevitable.

Ask any relevant expert at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing and he will tell you that the SCO should be understood as a historically unique alliance of five non-Western civilizations - Russian, Chinese, Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist - and, because of that, capable of evolving into the basis for a collective security system in Eurasia. That's a thought sure to discomfort classic inside-the-Beltway global strategists like Dr Zbig and president George H W Bush's national security advisor Brent Scowcroft.

According to the view from Beijing, the rising world order of the 21st century will be significantly determined by a quadrangle of BRIC countries - for those of you by now collecting New Great Game acronyms, that stands for Brazil, Russia, India and China - plus the future Islamic triangle of Iran, Saudi Arabia and Turkey. Add in a unified South America, no longer in thrall to Washington, and you have a global SCO-plus. On the drawing boards, at least, it's a high-octane dream.

The key to any of this is a continuing Sino-Russian entente cordiale.

Already in 1999, watching NATO and the United States aggressively expand into the distant Balkans, Beijing identified this new game for what it was: a developing energy war. And at stake were the oil and natural gas reserves of what Americans would soon be calling the "arc of instability," a vast span of lands extending from North Africa to the Chinese border.

No less important would be the routes pipelines would take in bringing the energy buried in those lands to the West. Where they would be built, the countries they would cross, would determine....

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/KC26Ag01.html
That's page one. There is much more to learn.
Have you heard of the SCO or BRIC? They are not fairy tales!

On June 15th and 16th the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) will hold its ninth annual heads of state summit in the Russian city of Yekaterinburg.

It will be attended by the presidents of its six full members - China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan - and by representatives of various ranks from its four observer states - India, Iran, Mongolia and Pakistan - and from several aspiring partner nations yet to be announced.

The SCO as an institution and as a concept represents the world's greatest potential and in ways is its major paradox as its capacities and their realization to date are so far apart.

Its six full members account for 60% of the land mass of Eurasia and its population is a third of the world's. With observer states included, its affiliates account for half of the human race.

At its fifth and watershed summit in the capital of Kazakhstan, Astana, in June of 2005, when representatives of India, Iran, Mongolia and Pakistan attended an SCO summit for the first time, the president of the country hosting the summit, Nursultan Nazarbayev, greeted the guests in words that had never before been used in any context: "The leaders of the states sitting at this negotiation table are representatives of half of humanity.” [1]

Former Joint Chief of Staff of the Russian Armed Forces and political analyst Leonid Ivashov later described the significance and unique nature of the SCO in asserting that, "Contrary to Samuel Huntington's concept of the allegedly inevitable clash of civilizations, the conclusion drawn in the SCO framework was that harmonized interactions between civilizations and their mutual assistance were possible.

"The contours of an alliance of five non-Western civilizations – Russian, Chinese, Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist – began to materialize." [2]

To emphasize the world-historical prospects of the organization, he added: "The SCO is supposed to be a special world without a clearly defined boundary, a world spanning the entire global space.

"The quadrangle of the new global entity – Brazil, Russia, China, and India – is already taking shape....The above and certain other formations are related to the SCO." [3]

The quartet Ivashov mentions above - Brazil, Russia, China, and India - has since 2001 been known by the acronym formed by the first letters of the nations' names, BRIC, the world's fastest and most consistently growing economies with the largest foreign currency and gold reserves.

BRIC held its first summit last May in the same city as this year's SCO summit will occur, Yekaterinburg, and will be holding the next in June.

Three of the four members of BRIC are also members or observers of the SCO, as are four of the world's seven official nuclear states.

As a Russian daily said in 2006, "The SCO is a momentous organisation which occupies territory from the Arctic to the Indian Ocean and from Kaliningrad to Shanghai.

"It may become the second political pole of the world." [4]

SCO members and observers also take in a stretch of Eurasia from the South China Sea to the Baltic Sea and from the Persian Gulf to the Bay of Bengal.

At the 2006 heads of states summit in Shanghai the presidents of Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan - Hamid Karzai, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Pervez Musharraf - attended as observers. Photographs of the three standing side by side appeared on numerous websites at the time and abounded in importance, both symbolic and substantive. The Afghan and Pakistani presidents had been hurling mutual accusations for years over the other's nation being the base of destabilization of his own and there even had been loss of life in military exchanges between the two states' armed forces.

Iran was the intended victim of thinly veiled threats of US military strikes. In fact the granting of observer status to the nation in 2005 and Ahmadinejad's attendance at three successive heads of state summits - China in 2006, Kyrgyzstan in 2007 and Tajikistan in 2008 - played no small role in thwarting whatever plans the United States and Israel have nurtured for attacking Iran.

To see the three above-mentioned leaders in the founding city of the SCO under the auspices of a multinational security alliance headed by Russia and China, as all three of their nations were at war or could soon be, revealed the regional and global prospects for the SCO as a new model for conflict resolution and cooperation.

During the 2007 summit the SCO discussed establishing a "unified energy market" and then Russian president Vladimir Putin stated, "I am convinced that energy dialogue, integration of our national energy concepts, and the creation of an energy club will set out the priorities for further cooperation." [5)

The following year Kazakh Prime Minister Karim Massimov speaking in reference to an impending meeting of SCO energy ministers and in affirming that "the existing system of pipelines on the SCO space connecting Russia, Central Asian states and China is a serious basis for the establishment of an SCO unified energy space," said:

“The projects on the establishment of a unified energy market and the SCO common transport corridor could become bright examples of the global approach to defining the forms and mechanisms of cooperation.” [6]

By 2007 the SCO had initiated over twenty large-scale projects related to transportation, energy and telecommunications and held regular meetings of security, military, defense, foreign affairs, economic, cultural, banking and other officials from its member states. No multinational organization with such far-ranging and comprehensive mutual interests and activities has ever existed on this scale before.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13707
Just the beginning of a very lengthy article.

Here's a short excerpt about the decline of the USD as the preeminent world currency.

China, as Hudson points out, has already struck bilateral trade deals with Brazil and Malaysia to denominate their trade in China’s yuan rather than the dollar, pound or euro. Russia promises to begin trading in the ruble and local currencies. The governor of China’s central bank has openly called for the abandonment of the dollar as reserve currency, suggesting in its place the use of the International Monetary Fund’s Special Drawing Rights. What the new system will be remains unclear, but the flight from the dollar has clearly begun. The goal, in the words of the Russian president, is to build a “multipolar world order” which will break the economic and, by extension, military domination by the United States. China is frantically spending its dollar reserves to buy factories and property around the globe so it can unload its U.S. currency. This is why Aluminum Corp. of China made so many major concessions in the failed attempt to salvage its $19.5 billion alliance with the Rio Tinto mining concern in Australia. It desperately needs to shed its dollars.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/06/15-0

Axes to grind and agendas to promote?
BTW....in case you haven't figured it out yet...it's not about Obama, (nor would it be about McCain if he had been elected) it's more to do with much (potentially 60%) of the world fed up with one country dominating and directing world affairs.
When it comes to OIL and MONEY nobody gives a flying phuck about your political leanings.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 1015
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/5/2009 12:36:03 AM
Just what is all that dribble above supposed to mean? Forgive me if I have to spend all day trying to figure out what the hell it's all supposed to drill down to? Nowhere do I see the past and present administration embroiled in a scheme to reap millions in profit from an Afghan pipeline? Isn't that what the fuss is about? that we only went into Afghanistan for a "pipeline"?

And just who is supposed to be behind it? Bush? If he is then where's the proof?

Big Oil? Of course oil companies will take advantage of any route that will benefit their company and their bottom line, along with enriching their stockholders. But show me where oil companies are pulling the strings and making Obama dance? He's the one in office, right?

If our government "isn't" directly involved, then what's your point?

If the argument is oil and money makey the world go around ..... Ahh, is that really news?? But you forgot who is really reaping the biggest profits. The countries of OPEC (which produces about 40 percent of the world’s crude and account for two-thirds of the world's oil reserves). They set the price of global oil and either increase or decrease production when "they" want, not when the US, or China, or Europe, or anybody else does. We have to go hat in hand whenever the global price spikes or supply dips and ask, ever so nicely, would they please lower prices or increase demand so us gas-hog Americans won't b*tch and moan about paying $3-$4/gallon at the pump to fill our big trucks and SUVs.

Gawd I will love the day when we finally stop our addiction to oil and let the oil producing countries eat it.
 Outdoor2

Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 1016
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/5/2009 1:21:20 AM

Gawd I will love the day when we finally stop our addiction to oil and let the oil producing countries eat it.

The only way the US can stay afloat is if you continue your addiction because oil (today) is traded in USD...currency exchanges makes profit...
One needs control before profits are realized...and to insure them...
But you forgot who is really reaping the biggest profits.

I haven't, but perhaps you have. The biggest profiteer is the one who controls which denomination oil is traded in. The value of the USD is tied to the value of oil.

Just what is all that dribble above supposed to mean?

Read slower if you must....perhaps even twice...and think...and for the love of god, stop being so reactionary!
 Fandango!

Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 1017
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/5/2009 2:14:56 AM
Outdoor2
I haven't, but perhaps you have. The biggest profiteer is the one who controls which denomination oil is traded in. The value of the USD is tied to the value of oil.


It's a unit of measurement for pricing. Nobody is physically exchanging anything unless they don't have a bank account. In which case, if buying from Bolivia for example, they'd have to have a suitcase full of pesos or whatever equal to the amount of oil they were buying measured on the pesos/dollar exchange rate for that particular day.
 motownmaniax

Joined: 8/13/2006
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/5/2009 2:33:27 AM
Again, outdoor, what's your point? Explain it to me in simple terms in your own words, or is that too difficult?


The only way the US can stay afloat is if you continue your addiction because oil (today) is traded in USD...currency exchanges makes profit...
One needs control before profits are realized...and to insure them...


And just how valuable is that currency right now? It's been falling for years and currently at a fraction of it's former value? China has had a policy in place to purposely undervalue the yuan vs the dollar in order to keep the trade deficit in its favor. Why? Currency manipulation occurs when a nation purposely undervalues its currency, making its exports artificially cheap and foreign imports wildly overpriced. This distorts trade, allowing the nation with the undervalued currency to maintain consistently huge trade surpluses. The victims of the practice, on the other hand, are forced to compete on an uneven playing field, lowering production and leading to job loss.

China is the most well-known practitioner of this illegal practice. Recent estimates have assumed that their currency is undervalued anywhere from 20 to 40 percent vis-à-vis the dollar. That has lead China to accumulate an astounding $1.4 trillion surplus since 2001 with the U.S.


Read slower if you must....perhaps even twice...and think...and for the love of god, stop being so reactionary!


How about this? Maybe if you gave me a coherent, concise, “personal” view of your position, using your “own” logic and thought processes, instead of running to the net and copy/pasting long reams of confusing articles and editorials to back up flawed arguments, I might make heads and tails of what you’re getting at?
 marita_b

Joined: 6/15/2005
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/14/2009 8:20:01 AM
boys play nice,...OK?

in⋅sol⋅vent  /ɪnˈsɒlvənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [in-sol-vuhnt] Show IPA
Use insolvent in a Sentence

–adjective 1. not solvent; unable to satisfy creditors or discharge liabilities, either because liabilities exceed assets or because of inability to pay debts as they mature.
2. pertaining to bankrupt persons or bankruptcy.

–noun 3. a person who is insolvent.

Synonyms:
1. penniless, destitute, impoverished, bankrupt.

*****************************************************************************

The only way the united states stays afloat,...(and trust me at this point that's all you get to claim),.....is because other countries globally allows it,...if everyone called in all the debts the USA ows at once,...the USA would cease to exist,....

So far this is not in their own interest but be carefull, don't forget that so far throughout history, no one has ever stayed number one forever,....

Not the Greek, the Egyptians, the Myans, the Incas, Aztecs....Chineese, Germans,...The British Empire,.....well you get the point,...

so remember what you use on other's because there is always a chance they might use it back,.....I am now referring to waterboarding,..or any other form of brutallity,...our imagination in which shows no bounds,.....

So how about getting back to the subject matter ok?

or start a new thread,....the downfall of the most recent empire,....
 kabiosile

Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 1020
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 7/15/2009 9:28:19 AM
I am sure motown will call this guy a conspiracy theorist, and try to distort what he has to say, or play the I know what everyone thinks or why they say what they say game in order to dilute the message but, I think it is worth a read for everyone.



Dear Mr. President,

I am an American combat veteran; a witness and survivor of multiple al Qaeda suicide bombings in Iraq and the destruction of our Marine Barracks and Embassies in Lebanon; an eyewitness to genocide in Bosnia; and a rescuer at the Pentagon crash site on 9/11. My late father, another veteran of three wars, fought in WWII as a 15-year-old African American sailor. He survived numerous suicide attacks of the Japanese Kamikaze in the Pacific. My family has more than a century of combined naval service. We know the meaning of both courage and terror.

I am compelled to write you in the capacity of a technical expert and intelligence professional, and hopefully, as a Navy Chief Petty Officer is sworn to do--to provide a voice of reason and common sense.

A few short years ago, I was teaching members of the armed forces and intelligence community how to resist terrorist exploitation and captivity at the Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) school in Coronado, California. SERE school is the gold standard for truth about the depths of inhumanity and the immorality of torture. It is the repository of America's corporate knowledge of brutality. It is built on the harrowing experiences of thousands of American soldiers who were taken captive, interrogated and, in many cases, killed at the hands of torturers.

One core truth that I taught to more than 5,000 service members is that torture, stress and duress, fear and despair and the heartless brutality that is physical and psychological coercion do not work. There is no yardstick long enough to measure the failure of torturers. I can say to you quite assuredly that torture never works.

As a SERE instructor role playing an al-Qaeda Emir or Ba'athist Major, I have contorted men and women into horribly painful positions, slapped their faces until they openly weep, slammed them repeatedly against walls, played cruel and inhuman sounds until they clasped their ears and placed them in cold boxes the size of a dog kennel. I have performed or assisted in hundreds of waterboardings and was subject to all of these techniques myself.

It was my job to expose Americans to the most cruel and heartless behaviors of totalitarian governments and terrorists. We used examples of our enemies' methods as an inoculation to brutality in captivity--not to inflict pain, but to reach a learning objective.

We now find that this curriculum, designed by our enemies, was engineered into a torture program to make al-Qaeda captives "talk." Torture is effective only in eliciting false confessions. What the torturer wants to hear, he gets. This "intelligence," invariably unreliable, is easily spoiled by the captive.

Today the architects of this shameful program are fighting a desperate rearguard action to justify and rationalize these methods as "critical and necessary" to the national security of this nation.

Some defenders of torture blithely refer to these techniques in seemingly benign terms. But we know that "enhanced interrogation" is a Nazi term of art for techniques used on unfortunate members of the French resistance. The entirety of the SERE program comes down to three simple words: Return with Honor. That is no longer possible for any of our service members until we determine how SERE was twisted to signify American-style torture. The precedence for captive abuse has been set. Unless we investigate there will always be "acceptable levels" of torture, no matter what you say or what our generals order.

You and I have sworn an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States. I have risked my well-being time and again to live up to that oath. I vowed to safeguard this nation's honor with my life.

But our oath does not give us the luxury of dismissing violations of law. When a serviceman breaks the law, he is held to immediate and full account by military court martial. So it must be with civilians in government service, particularly in wartime.

There is no middle ground when it comes to the honor of the nation. There must be a public reaffirmation that we are a nation of laws, that we stand for justice and the dignity of human life as a model to enemies and allies alike.

America is a tough and resilient nation. We can make it through this. Please heed the call for an investigative commission into torture and abuse. We cannot forget Al Qaeda's blinding hatred that brought us to this point. But, if words of regret are never uttered, the acts of brutality done in our name not publicly aired and those who ordered laws to be broken out of mischief or arrogance are not held accountable, then we will continue to err with Osama Bin Laden's personal approval.

I am proud of you as an American. I know you have the best interests of the nation in your heart.

If you find it hard to make the difficult choice to endorse this plea, just recall the equally difficult sacrifices that fill the allied cemetery at Colleville-Sur-Mer and those made daily at Buchenwald.

God bless you. Good luck.

Malcolm Wrightson Nance,

Counter-terror intelligence specialist and combat veteran


You can find this at amnesty international. It is one of ten letters you can send to president Obama opposing torture since they are now talking about looking into this matter on a justice department level. Please take action. We should never be silent while some in our nation starts to take pages out of the Nazi handbook and call torture "enhanced interrogation."
 marita_b

Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 1021
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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
Posted: 8/7/2009 12:51:52 PM
it would certainly go a long way to regain some of your countries admiration ,....
you were once held in such high regard,....do you really want to loose that globally forever?

I know some of you have said who cares,...etc,....but I suspect most of you do,....
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