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Mulva
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Joined: 12/28/2007
Msg: 26 | |
| Confused about religion
Posted: 1/31/2008 10:13:34 AM | | Jesus actively pursued sinners - they are the ones who need him more | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 1/31/2008 9:31:05 PM | One thing that confuses me the most is why other people are turned off at the fact one does identifying with faith, an organized faith.
I am a Christian, a spiritual Christian but not religious. I belong to an old and small community of Catholics (Maronite) that come from the middle east and we have quite a history but thats aside the point.
However I am pigeoned holed with the rest. When I say I am Christian, I come under attack and then blocked by many other people of different faiths (Pagan, Agnostic, etc) before I can defend my beliefs and state the manner in which I practice. Even Amongst other Christians (Protestants) I am being witnessed too and shot down because my sect is by many considered a heretic faith, thought its no different than Roman Catholicism save for a few different traditions, but being a Catholic is bad news in the Christian community
Its funny how many non Christians claim that Christians are closed minded and yet they themselves judge us even liberal Christians at face value and reject us because of the name. | |
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Mulva
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Joined: 12/28/2007
Msg: 28 | |
| Confused about religion
Posted: 1/31/2008 9:40:16 PM | I'm Roman Catholic and I have Catholic friends - I guess I don't run into people who judge in that way
Not that I can remember so I guess it didn't make an impression | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/1/2008 11:17:58 AM |
One thing that confuses me the most is why other people are turned off at the fact one does identifying with faith, an organized faith. Negative experiences stand out in people's minds more than positive ones. It's a pretty well documented part of psychology. This is a pretty handy survival trait, and we all know how easily we "learn from our mistakes", but the downside is that we have a tendency to find patterns in negative experiences that aren't real. Because the negatives stand out, and we forget the positives, we think there is a pattern and that shapes many of our assumptions and behaviors. It can happen regarding a specific person, a food, a group of poeple, a car company, what we read in the news, or a religion.
Let's be honest, Evangelicals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and anyone else who goes door-to-door constantly pushing people to convert really leave a long string of bad experiences in people's minds. Because they are constantly seeking out non-Christians to prosthelytize, they end up making this negative impression on a very large group of people. Meanwhile, those quiet Christians who follow the rule from Matthew 6:1-8 ("Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them") don't leave nearly as strong a positive impression and simply don't interact with as many people either. End result? Lots and lots of people think that Christians are annoying. And that's before you get into the real hypocrisy of people who kill, hate, oppress and whatnot in the name of religion.
With the sheer number of times I've been harassed or invited to a bible study or told that my parents were going to hell because they're divorced or told that I'm going to hell because I don't belong to the "one and only correct version of Christianity"--it gets very tempting to fall into the trap of blaming religion for the faults of those who claim to be religious.
Just consider it a chance to exersize your compassion. Know that the people who are turned off because you are in an organized religion are reacting to a lot of negative experiences they've had in the past. Don't take thier words and actions personally, because they really aren't.
But if you want to know why they feel the way they do, that is why: Idiots using religion as a weapon. | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/2/2008 5:42:57 PM |
Just consider it a chance to exersize your compassion. Know that the people who are turned off because you are in an organized religion are reacting to a lot of negative experiences they've had in the past. Don't take thier words and actions personally, because they really aren't.
But if you want to know why they feel the way they do, that is why: Idiots using religion as a weapon.
Thank you for your wonderful observations, Khamya. I believe you have it right.
I think one reason many good Christians get caught up in the bad-religion net is because for every Pushy, Proselytizing, right-wing fanatic, there are 1,000 silent Christians... The same goes for Islam, for every "terrorist" there are 10,000 good Muslims, but if all the GOOD Christians and Muslims don't stand up and loudly voice their disagreement with their obnoxious brethren, many presume that they are in agreement (even if they aren't).
James, Port Orchard, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/14/2008 7:41:01 PM | talk about confused...
comparing Pushy, Proselytizing, right-wing fanatic Christains with Islamic terrorists, Please, think it thru, don't sound like the proverbial parrot who knows how to repeat phrases but has no idea what he's talking about.
The former are NOT trying to blow you and your loved ones up, and they are certainly NOT saying you must convert or die! Please don't use the very few who were deranged enough to do violence upon others as an example, cuz there are plenty of left wing idealogues who have killed or destroyed in the name of whatever cause they embrace.
and why is it non-christians never seem to give credit to all the Christian churches and organizations that spend billions, raised by the way from the pockets of good christian donations not government money, to help not only in our own communities but in worlds far removed from our own nation. The drive-by media never covers that but let a christian slip up and it's all over for weeks... it's b.s.
I certainly don't see critics of christian criticizing they way Islamists treat their women or non-islamists who criticize their religion. Go ahead, give it a go and see how long before you get threats. You don't see christians putting their critics on death lists!!! Sure, the christian history is not without it's dark moments, but for all it's warts and farts it's theology and rules for living are just as good as any. I agree, christians have been silent too long, it's time to stand up for the faith and they need to show by their words AND their actions just how positive it truly is, and according to their Bible, they are to spread the Good Word.
thank you and God bless...   | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/15/2008 1:19:55 AM | There's not much differnce between moderate Muslim and Christian beliefs, or the way they are expressed. Muslims were pretty much the first out of the dark ages practicing science, phillosophy, art, etc.
Fanatics of any belief are the ones to avoid - they throw stones at those that don't agree with them and view the scars left by the stones that bounce back as honorable things. | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/15/2008 3:24:08 PM | comparing Pushy, Proselytizing, right-wing fanatic Christains with Islamic terrorists, Please, think it thru, don't sound like the proverbial parrot who knows how to repeat phrases but has no idea what he's talking about.
The former are NOT trying to blow you and your loved ones up
OH, I beg to differ. Right wing fanatics of Islam and Christianity *HAVE* blown up loved ones! Christians have killed doctors and nurses, firebombed clinics, and bombed nightclubs where gays might hang out. Fundamentalists on BOTH sides have killed in the name of their gods.
I believe the number of Fanatical Christians and Muslims are around the same percentage of their respective religions.
I certainly don't see critics of christian criticizing they way Islamists treat their women or non-islamists who criticize their religion.
If you're not seeing it, you're watching / listening to the WRONG news reports.
But again, I Personally don't see much of a difference between the Christian "promise keepers" and the right-winged followers of Islam. They both want 'seen and not heard' and women subservient to men.
James, Port Orchard, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/15/2008 4:35:09 PM | like I said... talk about confused. Admittedly the few who have caused violence and death in the name of their christian beliefs are the extreme, as are the Earth Liberationists, The Symbionese Lib. Army, Black Panthers etc. But I don't see an organized religious group armed to the teeth in control of a country training their youth to prepare to kill christians first and then the rest of you... unless of course you bow down and serve their God. Huge difference... and it's not what I read as much as what I see and know, it ain't that hard to decipher.
You still haven't shown where you have a balanced view of christianity and all the good it's done over the ages... and especially today while christians are getting slaughtered by the thousands and no one, including yourself, are taking up the defense of the innocents there???
yeah, confused for sure... | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/15/2008 6:24:10 PM |
But I don't see an organized religious group armed to the teeth in control of a country training their youth to prepare to kill christians first and then the rest of you... unless of course you bow down and serve their God.
Couple of things:
1. it's their VIEW of God, not THEIR God. Judaism, Christianity, and Muslim are brother religions all descened from Abraham.
2. Sadly, we created those countries by supporting the "benevolent" dictatorships that ran them, which seems to act a a lightning rod for fundamentalist opposition to those dictatorships. Grats us for creating our own cesspit, instead of installing democratic bodies that are historicly resistant to fundamentalists.
You still haven't shown where you have a balanced view of christianity and all the good it's done over the ages... and especially today while christians are getting slaughtered by the thousands and no one, including yourself, are taking up the defense of the innocents there???
Modern Christianity is doing pretty good, but other than the last 300 years or so, I'd say it's got a LOT to answer for on the negative side of the coin. I don't have the time or inclination to go into it right now.
As for the last part, I served during the first Gulf war. We incited the Iraqi people to rebellion with the promise that once the ground war hit we'd back them if they moved against Sadam. The ground war hit, they moved, and we "Christians" pulled out leaving thousands of rebels to die - and then their entire extended families (including women and children) when he 'cleansed' the country while we watched from the other side of the Iraqi border.
They're kinda pissed - and justafiably so (You watch 9/10ths of every relation to you get executed and dumped in the sewer and then NOT think about a little "eye for an eye" action). WE have a lot to answer for, and a LOT of trust to earn before anyone in that part of the world will even think about taking us "Christians" at our word again. | |
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Mulva
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Joined: 12/28/2007
Msg: 36 | |
| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/15/2008 6:29:07 PM | Wow, guys, you're into some deep stuff
Too deep for my pea brain | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/15/2008 8:17:10 PM | I agree on the historical portion here, but let's not confuse national and international politics with christianity. Our involvement with the middle east was not for "christian" reasons at all my friend and I'm sure you know that well enough. It was politics and economics on a global scale and the fight between the democracies and the socialist and neo communists, whoever controls the oil controls the world.
Yes, I agree, after world war one and two not only the europeans and the americans but the socialist/communists all sat down and divided the middle east precisely for the reasons above and also to prevent exactly what is going on today... nationalism on the part of the arab peoples to control their resources. Religion was not the major factor and both christian and atheist nations partook of those decisions.
Again, I agree, but it's much longer then 300 yrs, let's say from about 300 A.D. when the faith was coopted by the roman empire, it's been misused by every king, emperor, monarch, great orator AND Pope, etc. Even so, during all those years christians, as well as the other faiths, were doing good all around them. And how can today's christian answer for the deeds of those who made those decisions so long ago, come on, are any of us to be held responsible for the actions of our grandfathers? I can't agree that there's a LOT to be answered for, nor to be held responsible for, we only have control over today's events.
Like I said, thousands of christians are getting slaughtered daily, or enslaved, or deprived and I still don't hear, read, or see anyone raising hell over that. Is that because todays christians deserve it because of the mistakes that were made by generations before them? Now how in the world does that make any sense, honestly? It's cheap and easy to waste christians since they're all bound to love their enemies and not raise a hand to defend themselves, right? So tell me something good about christianity... I'm still waiting to see some fair and balanced opinions here!
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/15/2008 10:22:05 PM | | The key to remember is that there is good and bad in every 'type' however you wanna stereotype people. So take the good with the bad, and the bad with the good. | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/16/2008 7:53:14 AM | I think we should do what the OP suggested, This was NOT to be a Christian-bashing thread, and it appears to be headed down that tried and true slippery slope at this point.
To mix metaphors, do we think that we can pull this thing out of its nosedive and gain a bit of altitude?
The OP is 'confused' about Christianity because some 'Christian' woman have taken advantage of him or just screwed him over in the past.
I don't know if this thread can really go beyond the idea that any good or bad a person does has absolutely NOTHING to do with their religion. Religion is simply the path they try to follow, but no one stays on their particular path at all times. We all TRY, and of course there are some who pretend to be on a specific spiritual path, but that's just because they see some advantage to that claim.
Don't make me say, "Can't we all just get along".
James, Port Orchard, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/17/2008 2:43:57 AM |
This was NOT to be a Christian-bashing thread, and it appears to be headed down that tried and true slippery slope at this point.
Haven't seen anyone bashing yet - and I'm certainly not one to beat myself on the head, so it's not going to happen. (Yes, I am a Christian, raised, baptised, and partially educated) I do have a wider world view than some because of my experiences and travels, and I do my best to bring that to the table.
However difficult questions deserve difficult answers, and it'd disrespectful to all parties involved if we sugar coated things a bit. I do have a wider world view than some because of my experiences and travels, and I do my best to bring that to the table. You might not agree with me, but I'll do my best to make sure that all involved truly unserstand what they're asking or stating, and that you'll know my position in return. | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/17/2008 3:22:41 AM |
let's not confuse national and international politics with christianity. Our involvement with the middle east was not for "christian" reasons at all my friend and I'm sure you know that well enough. It was politics and economics on a global scale and the fight between the democracies and the socialist and neo communists, whoever controls the oil controls the world. I'm not going to argue the point about our reasons to be there, that's mostly public knowledge. I will however state the fact that when we do go stromping through various parts of the world, both our flag and the notion of "America" is highly tied to the phrase "one nation under god" and a christian cross.
nationalism on the part of the arab peoples to control their resources. Religion was not the major factor and both christian and atheist nations partook of those decisions. Again you are correct with the borad strokes. However, self determining nationalization was indeed part of the program - none of the parties involved were in the "empire building" phase anymore. Where the west failed was both lack of education to the masses on how to do it, as well as the western tendency to think "we're both smarter than the locals, and know what's best for them" and steamroll indigenous societies.
let's say from about 300 A.D. when the faith was coopted by the roman empire, it's been misused by every king, emperor, monarch, great orator AND Pope, etc. Even so, during all those years christians, as well as the other faiths, were doing good all around them. Yes and no. I say 300 years ago because that's when the chrisitan church and the general population (for the most part) stopped burning/killing/stoning everything and everyone around them that either they didn't understand, or disagreed with them. The introduction of the concept of seperation of church and state had a lot to do with this I believe. But the battle to balance rationoalism and faith isn't over. DaVinci, Galleleo, and other great thinkers of earlier times litterally shelved and hid great discoveries simply because they knew that making them public knowledge would be deemed heresy and they'd be killed. Today we're still fighting that battle on a smaller scale. "Intelligent Design" is one of those examples. It's both creationism, as well as intellectually stamping the map "beyond here lies dragons" or "God's territory". It's a topic for another discussion, but I fervently believe that we paid the price for Science when Eve ate the Fruit of Knowledge. God created the toolset, we're just learning how to work it - and no, I don't see any moral or spiritual conflicts with that.
And how can today's christian answer for the deeds of those who made those decisions so long ago, come on, are any of us to be held responsible for the actions of our grandfathers? I can't agree that there's a LOT to be answered for, nor to be held responsible for, we only have control over today's events. Walk into your local NAACP chapter and ask them aboutt the concept of "reparations" and I'm sure they'll bring you up to speed on the concept. :) Ok, seriously - atonement, humility. We as a religion and a nation have a bit of work to do on that front.
Like I said, thousands of christians are getting slaughtered daily, or enslaved, or deprived and I still don't hear, read, or see anyone raising hell over that. Is that because todays christians deserve it because of the mistakes that were made by generations before them? Now how in the world does that make any sense, honestly? When's the last time you read the Qu'ran? The Jewish scriptures? Have you ever asked a Budist about their faith, and just tried to understand it? How many "Christians" do you know that have actually studied other religions enough to understand the differences between their's and ours, and can respect the differences? Seriously, for the most part, we're a pretty obnoxious bunch that tends to think "we're going to heaven, and you Godless heathen, are doomed to hell" even with the other religions that worship the same God we do.
We have a lot to learn, and we'll keep getting bloody noses until we do.
So tell me something good about christianity... I'm still waiting to see some fair and balanced opinions here We throw a hell of a pot-luck! - as long as you don't do Kosher or Hilal restrictions. ;) | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/17/2008 1:28:12 PM | heheheh oh alright Rain, I'll get along. The OP wanted to know how a good christian woman could do him so bad, you're right. Guess none of us can live up to the do's and don'ts, not even unbelievers huh? As I was once told by an old timer, those are guidelines to try to live by and tame our wild nature so that we can "get along with each other".
Vax, my friend, yes I've read those other books and much of histories, and I too have lived a varied, rewarding and eye opening life. Every religious nation at one time or another has waged war, murdered, slaughtered, violated, mutilated and deprived another nation or peoples. Christians do NOT have the market on this. If pot lucks are the best you can offer... never mind, I promised Rain I'd get along, and I think we've reached that level where no more good can come of this discussion, so I'll just be on getting along and wish the rest of you well. God bless you friend.
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/17/2008 10:45:22 PM | I think Vaxplant hit it on the head there. Most people are confused with faith because they have stereo types and they base it on tunneled realities and maybe a few websites here and there that are of questionable credibility. I can google Christian violence, moslem violence, and even Buddist violence and find dirt on all of them. I can look up also references to war in the holy books of all faiths and find a verse here and there that calls for it. However people as a whole need more education and also need to educate themselves on faith and not have an agenda because an agenda will skew your topic information badly and in other words, you will simply looks for answers that reinforce your biased opinion on faith.
I've read the Koran and am studying the Hadith, read the Torah and now am researching Wiccan. I am Christian/Maronite Catholic and that will never change, but the worst thing anyone can do is think they are right and others are wrong. Sadly Christians are not the only ones, contrary to popular opinion to be the only closed minded people in the world. | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/17/2008 11:44:57 PM | Hoping not to offend anyone's beliefs or sensibilities, I just want to point out that all religions deal with the realm of the supernatural. What I can't explain, or understand in terms of science, but intuitively believe based on the cultural perimeters of my society, can be found either in the latest chapter of the soap on TV (just a joke) or can be "found" as a topic in some form of religion.
Seriously, I believe that humanity as a whole is "hard wired" to congregate with peers that share our ethic (and ethnic) viewpoint.
I hope this doesn't sound cynical, but to me, ALL religions are valid. It stands to reason that I would choose a religion that appeals to my cultural standpoint and my personal system of belief.
I am a Christian, but that doesn't persuade me to believe that Buddhists or a Muslims are going to be crisped like a piece of bacon because they don't accept Christ as their Savior.
Just my . 2 | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 2/18/2008 12:04:12 AM | Oh, and by the way, OP...Seems like you aren't confused about religion. Rather, you seem confused as to why a person that embraces a religion can be such a flop as relationship material.
Well, the way I see it, the worst and the best and the middling people are all in religion for different reasons. You may have a high ethical stance, you may be a proverbial Judas (even Jesus' Apostles had a rotten egg in their group) or you may drift blissfully off to sleep, lulled by the sermon and the self satisfied sense of "goodness"
People from all drifts of life go to church. People from all drifts of life stay out of church. It isn't the church: its how you equate religion with what you perceive as your life mission. | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 4/24/2009 4:25:06 PM | | Don't get me wrong I have spiritual beliefs I believe in a higher power though I don't know who he/she is and I have created my own belief system that most "religious" people would find offensive it has also been my experience that religious people leave something to be desired IMO I think that the term religious is just code for haters it does not matter what branch of religion you follow there is always a guideline of hate/discrimination several religious branches even go so far as to tell you that speaking to someone outside of your religion is a sin, I am so tired of all the hate that floats around in our society. I believe that the life we have now is all the hell we will ever need that does not mean that I think it is all bad but the bad parts are really bad even if it is just to us. | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 4/26/2009 8:53:51 PM | | Anyone can go to church or temple and say they are religious. Even the KKK think they are the best Christians and have it all figured out. You can never judge the morals of a person on what they say they believe rather judge people for their actions. Sounds obvious but people are just people whether or not they believe in god. I have known some people that are Christians by name only just to fit into a group. Or perhaps they were born into a religion. The woman you are talking about will be judged by her god just hope she remembers the SPF 10,000 lol. | |
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Sorg85
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Joined: 2/22/2009
Msg: 49 | |
| Confused about religion
Posted: 5/3/2009 6:03:55 PM | You know with everything that has been said on this thread, has been very well said.
But to be honest with you all, religion in general will always have its fanatics, hypocrits, and normal believers.
With everything in the media about different religious groups, they will always point out the fanatics and frankly the media always makes the event worse than it is. | |
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| Confused about religion
Posted: 8/25/2009 2:34:03 AM | Any mortal that claims they know what happens after death is by definition full of sh*t and anyone who claims they have a special connection with God should not be trusted. The fact is, death is a very unforgiving event, and there is nobody on this planet who can say definitively what that is. At most it is a one way gate to something beyond our comprehension and at least it could simply be a game ending play and everyone has gone home. If you need to seek comfort in your living life to deal with the possibility that there may be nothingness but a lights out non-experience, then by all means find yourself some peace and comfort in a religious and/or spiritual body. There are plenty of groups and organizations out there that can provide you with guidance.
But please keep it to yourself and don't bother me with your dogma. The same goes for all these other posters in this forum that were most likely taught this stuff as a family tradition, by a religious organization, or by some book that has been revised over a thousand times. The fear of death is real and unfortunately blind faith often accompanies it. | |
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