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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/6/2008 5:15:35 PM | dennyden, you get insurance from your employer, i assume? you know that if you dont see a doctor in a year but someone who does, the rates you pay are for the entire group .......sick or not. Doesnt that trouble you? I mean, you pay the same amount of money and dont see a doctor, but someone who pays the same might get 10 or 100 times that amount if they are sick, which means that you pay for them.
And someone who doesnt work ......well, if they are between jobs and unemployed and get sick, then.........what? Suffer and die?
Or is it the welfare mom.......insurance for her kids, maybe? Or do they suffer and die, too? Or insurance for them, but not the mom? the mom suffers and dies?
Who must suffer and die for you? the elderly dont work, nor do the disabled.
And bob-0-colo, you want to see kids suffer and die? What a nice man you are.
What is it you guys cant get past to go to the idea that everyone pitches in what they can afford and everyone benefits? were talking about health care, not TVs or Cadillacs or caviar.
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/6/2008 5:59:31 PM |
And bob-0-colo, you want to see kids suffer and die? What a nice man you are.
I said foster care or maybe prison... The US has the best heath care in the world don't you know...
I watch 60 mins last sun... They had a segment about Haiti....
The doctor said his patient had better care than in the US... These are people eating mud they are so poor...
The health care in this country is crap....... We need The french to donate more Dr's with out Borders .... | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/6/2008 6:52:43 PM | bob-O-colo, so now youre saying kids in foster care should be allowed to suffer and die if they dont have insurance?
Or people in prison? Many prisoners might wish to work, if they could, but they have no choice. So is it rapists and murderers who should be allowed to suffer and die, but not white collar criminals or those, too? Everyone? What about someone arrested on a DUI? | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/6/2008 6:56:59 PM | Fire Knight....... don't go slamming my ideology when you don't work in the medical field. Yes, I do provide medical services. Let me clarify it for you. I am an American Registered Diagnostic Sonographer. I do ultrasound and went to 3 years of school.
I just happen to work for a company that is an Ins. Co and also we have medical clinics/services . I work in the medical group aspect.
I was going to debate the rest, but decided not to waste my energy. It doesn' matter what we say. It will all come down to election time, who is voted in to office, then decided from there.
So, all you CAN do is, VOTE for who you support. If one doesn't vote, then they have no say in the matter in my opinion. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/6/2008 7:55:52 PM | Actually Smart-Blonde I do work in the medical field on several levels. My area of speciality happens to be emergency medicine however by its nature that means I deal with almost ever facet of medical care. I stepped my involvement back in that I no longer am as involved as I once was, focusing my career else where. Mostly because of the issues you chose not to debate.
As I said I too have worked for an Insurance Co one of the larger ones for that matter, and in one of the largest cities. So Yes I will slam your ideology when you make comments like the one you made about medical professionals leaving. Its simply not true, and it disregards the current problems. | |
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Posted: 5/6/2008 8:08:45 PM | I guess we will see in the end. Who gets into office, what happens and if it changes to a more socialized health care, and what happens to the field of professionals.
You and I can debate all we want, we can both voice our opinions... Do either of us know the actual outcome? No. Unless you can see in to the future... I know I can't. I only know how all the Physicians and professionals I work with feel about it. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/6/2008 9:19:02 PM |
.................USA 47 million uninsured........
............... Millions more underinsured......
............... Half of all the Bankruptcies caused by medical bills....
You can BUY insurance with more extensive coverage for less than you would pay in taxes if it were free. Guaranteed. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/6/2008 9:28:27 PM | | That is because government is NOT the answer. If government is the answer then it must be an awfully STUPID question! FREE health care? Just who in the hell do they think is going to be PAYING for it? Us, kiddos...........Mr. and Mrs. Taxpayer, that's who! NOTHING in life is free. There IS no such thing as a free lunch..........OR free health care either. Anyone who thinks that there is needs to put down their crack pipe. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/6/2008 9:42:56 PM |
You can BUY insurance with more extensive coverage for less than you would pay in taxes if it were free.
My taxes would have to go up by $8,436.00 a year. And every year my rates are higher. Until I reach 65 when I can get Medicare, I have to do without a lot of other things to keep health insurance.
Perhaps for younger people, insurance is not so expensive, but just try being too young for Medicare but old enough that you are considered a medical risk. By the way, many employers will not offer insurance to it's mature employees because the rates are so high. | |
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Posted: 5/6/2008 10:06:55 PM |
You can BUY insurance with more extensive coverage for less than you would pay in taxes if it were free. Guaranteed.
You can Guarantee me a better rate than I have now????
Have you a lot of Insurance Experience???
You can guarantee me insurance with out an exclusion for a pre existing condition??
I don't believe you........ What kind of coverage do you have??? | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/6/2008 10:15:56 PM | | It is funny to realize why things happen in life.....In answer to all the post here, I think you all should see the movie I just seen. It is called SICKO | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/7/2008 6:09:21 AM | | mayflowerf, yes, Sicko was a terrific movie, factual and informative, but there are those diehards who will cleave to their ridiculous assertions and bite their own noses off their own faces for them, too. Its a waste of breath. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/7/2008 10:57:45 AM |
but there are those diehards who will cleave to their ridiculous assertions and bite their own noses off their own faces for them, too. Its a waste of breath.
No i don't want children in foster care or prison...
It was a question for diehards... How do you deal with this persons situation or that persons situation ...
I get tired it is a waste of breath...... | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/7/2008 12:31:12 PM | My opinion is that no one in government is talking about giving the public healthcare. They are all talking about giving us health care insurance policies. Why would any comprehensive plan waste money on having insurance companies in the loop? The driving force is the insurance industry and they will be the only big winners in any thing that comes out of this. The general public will have insurance policies but still not be able to afford the co-payments and or the deductibles. I already know people that have insurance but they cannot afford the co-payments or the drugs prescribed even when they do see a doctor.
The government getting involved in healthcare is what made healthcare unaffordable to begin with so I’m pretty confident that more government will just make things worse.
There are many pretty easy answers for all of this. For example, quadruple the number of doctors and it is pretty certain that their fees will drop substantially. Small pharmaceutical companies used to provide many inexpensive drugs but they were pushed out by over regulation by the FDA backed by the large pharmaceutical companies. These days, government regulations are used by big business to drive little business under and it was competition from these small companies that kept prices low and affordable. . | |
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Posted: 5/7/2008 12:56:21 PM | WarmthnPassion,
Nice post, at least it actually says something..........
Yet, what percent is doctors' fees of the entire health care bill? Not quite sure how you quadruple doctors, but if there are 4 times as many then that percent would go up 400%, wouldnt it? Minus whatever savings they accrue.
Were small pharm companies pushed out by overregulation at the FDA? Do you have examples of that? And was it the small companies that kept prices low and affordable, such as?
I thought that holding the patent for 7 years on a drug and brand name is what made the money in the business, not so much selling generics ....is that no longer true?
In fact, something like 60-70% of the increase in the cost of drugs is from MARKETIG COSTS, not R&D, no production.......just marketing. Do you watch TV? We pay for those commercials and in prime time, they are quite expensive. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/7/2008 6:10:33 PM |
You can Guarantee me a better rate than I have now????
Have you a lot of Insurance Experience???
You can guarantee me insurance with out an exclusion for a pre existing condition??
I don't believe you........ What kind of coverage do you have???
Yesyesyes. I can do all of that, Bob. Just send me ALL of your personal information & I would be more than happy to set something up for you.
I have the free insurance, Bob... You know, the kind (which I already stated) I have to pay for. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/7/2008 7:26:12 PM | I dont have the formula for this but we spend $2 trillion a year in America on medical care. Medicare administrates at 5% of claims and insurances at 30% overhead, so that is roughly a difference of $100 billion a year in overhead vs. $600 billion.........a difference of $500 billion sucked up by insurance companies who are, like Big Oil, making record profits off the so-called health care crisis.
Would anyone suppose that we could cover evryone in the country AND make health care less expensive AND control costs through that?
All it really would mean is one, big Medicare program for everyone.
What's so "socialist" about that? | |
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Posted: 5/7/2008 8:10:45 PM | Steve, I really do not follow your logic about doctors. The fact is that if you take the ratio of what doctors have made in comparison to the minimum wage, you will see that doctor's wages have gone up like crazy since the 70's. Prior to that, I think doctors made about 12 times minimum wage or something close to that. Just like in any occupation, if you increase the number of people with that expertise, the cost for that expertise decreases. So, that is why I said training more doctors would reduce the cost of a doctor's visit and healthcare in general.
The most common sickness is bacterial which requires an antibiotic. The basic cost of getting an antibiotic requires going to a doctor in the USA. (Now, if we lived in a 3rd world economies like India or Mexico, a doctor's prescription would not even be necessary and those are the countries cranking out bacteria resistant to antibiotics.) The doctor, not knowing any better, tells you to take some time release nonsense instead of something simple like erythromycin which would cost 1/10 of the time release version. All in all, the cost typically exceeds $200.00 for $12.00 worth of medicine.
Another thing that would be helpful is placing a line item on every hospital bill entitled "deadbeat charge." The USA already has free healthcare for the poor. That cost is placed on the paying customers. Instead of taking the free medical care that the government requires hospitals to provide and distributing it over each and every product and service they provide to the actual paying customers, it would be nice to see exactly what your actual service costs and how much you are paying for all the strangers you don't know.
Litigation is for sure one of the biggest problems in healthcare. Large companies can sue small companies without any merit and pretty much drive them out of business in civil court through endless litigation. This has become the modern way for large companies to steal products from smaller competition. It's very effective and almost always works.
Yes, getting a drug through the FDA is unbelievably expensive and time consuming. Part of the problem is that they feel that they are experts in drug manufacturing and on an equal footing of expertise as the actual manufacturers when in fact they are about the most incompetent people in the field. At one time they would just make sure that your products were what they were labeled but nowadays they actually feel that they know how to manufacture better than the people in that business. Like many government entities these days, they are above the law and can do searches without a search warrant for one example. One of my companies has a drug that saved burn victims that surely would die without it. After 12 years of trying to get approval, we just gave up which was of course very upsetting because it did mean that about 10,000 would die per year that otherwise could have been saved if not for the good ol FDA.
Those commercials that you see from drug companies are there to advertise drugs but also really aimed at making it public about the adverse effects of the company’s drugs. That way, in court, they have proof that the consumer should have known about the hazards of the drug. Most drugs have a profit of 100 times or more of what the actual cost to manufacture it costs. It's obscene. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/7/2008 8:29:56 PM |
.................USA 47 million uninsured........
............... Millions more underinsured......
............... Half of all the Bankruptcies caused by medical bills....
I see these numbers posted all the time, yet no one ever posts the government source where they come from. Are they really true? I thought if you did not have insurance you got medicaid or medicare? Does that mean the government can not even cover the poorest of the poor? if they are failing in that, how can you expect them to run a nationwide healthcare system?? Sounds like the demise of any healthcare for ALL AMERICANS to me, is what you are advocating.
The Communists have free healthcare, look what it got them........ what was their standard of living? what was their life expectancy?
The USA has the best healthcare anywhere and the liberals and socialists want to tear it down. Well I am not standing by and watching it happen. Are you???!! | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/7/2008 10:17:15 PM |
The USA has the best healthcare anywhere and the liberals and socialists want to tear it down. Well I am not standing by and watching it happen. Are you???!!
I thought if you did not have insurance you got medicaid or medicare?
Is it nice to not know about loosing insurance?? ........
You must not read very much.
Your experience with health insurance is very limited....
Health Coverage & The Uninsured
Lack of health insurance coverage for 46 million Americans is one of the nation's most pressing problems.
http://www.kff.org/uninsured/index.cfm
Underinsured
http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/Underinsured-in-America-Is-Health-Coverage-Adequate-Fact-Sheet.pdf
another 16 million adults were underinsured in 2003, meaning their insurance did not adequately protect them against catastrophic health care expenses, finds a study in Health Affairs
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=280812
In "Insured But Not Protected: How Many Adults Are Underinsured?" (Health Affairs Web Exclusive, June 14, 2005), The Commonwealth Fund's Cathy Schoen, Michelle M. Doty, Sara R. Collins, and Alyssa L. Holmgren find that inadequate coverage—much like no coverage at all—creates obstacles to care and other burdens. Underinsured adults are almost as likely as the uninsured to go without needed medical care and to incur medical debt. Lower-income and sicker adults are most at risk of having inadequate coverage.
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=280812
A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy was $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses.13 Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
The Impact of Rising Health Care Costs
National surveys show that the primary reason people are uninsured is the high cost of health insurance coverage.2
Economists have found that rising health care costs correlate to drops in health insurance coverage.8
Nearly one-quarter (23 percent) of the uninsured reported changing their way of life significantly in order to pay medical bills.9
In a Wall Street Journal-NBC Survey almost 50 percent of the American public say the cost of health care is their number one economic concern.10
In a USA Today/ABC News survey, 80 percent of Americans said that they were dissatisfied (60 percent were very dissatisfied) with high national health care spending.11
Rising health care costs is the top personal pocketbook concern for Democratic voters (45%) and Republicans (35%), well ahead of higher taxes or retirement security.12
One in four Americans say their family has had a problem paying for medical care during the past year, up 7 percentage points over the past nine years. Nearly 30 percent say someone in their family has delayed medical care in the past year, a new high based on recent polling. Most say the medical condition was at least somewhat serious.
A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy was $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses.13 Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.
One half of workers in the lowest-compensation jobs and one-half of workers in mid range-compensation jobs either had problems with medical bills in a 12-month period or were paying off accrued debt. One-quarter of workers in higher-compensated positions also reported problems with medical bills or were paying off accrued debt.14
If one member of a family is uninsured and has an accident, a hospital stay, or a costly medical treatment, the resulting medical bills can affect the economic stability of the whole family.15
A new survey shows that more than 25 percent said that housing problems resulted from medical debt, including the inability to make rent or mortgage payments and the development of bad credit ratings.16
A survey of Iowa consumers found that in order to cope with rising health insurance costs, 86 percent said they had cut back on how much they could save, and 44 percent said that they have cut back on food and heating expenses.17
Retiring elderly couples will need $200,000 in savings just to pay for the most basic medical coverage.18 Many experts believe that this figure is conservative and that $300,000 may be a more realistic number.
According to a recent report, the United States has $480 billion in excess spending each year in comparison to Western European nations that have universal health insurance coverage. The costs are mainly associated with excess administrative costs and poorer quality of care.19
The United States spends six times more per capita on the administration of the health care system than its peer Western European nations.19
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
Bankruptcy • 2005 • 1,637,254
http://www.uscourts.gov/Press_Releases/bankruptcyfilings82405.html
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/7/2008 10:46:00 PM | | bob0colo, there is still nothing in what you posted that would suggest that government is the answer to all of these problems. Nothing in it refuted the first guy that you quoted. I submit that this crisis is real but it was in fact a result of government intervention in a system that was working fine without them involved. More government involvement will just make it even more expensive and at a lower standard of care. Great post by he way, very informative and with sources. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/7/2008 11:17:12 PM | .
I posted links ask for......
There is a mountain of opinion and plenty of information here. This is his op.
I have gone into detail many times here. People wanting to live with third world health care should move to an impoverished country. Oh.... wait thats kinda what we are becoming.
People that justify, paying one man $1.6 billion dollars for being the CEO of United Healthcare, just don't think like I do, and never will. We do not have the Best health care in the world. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/8/2008 9:15:12 AM |
I submit that this crisis is real but it was in fact a result of government intervention in a system that was working fine without them involved.
And I submit you have alot of reading to do warmthnpassion. The fact is the current crisis has nothing to do with government involvement but lack of it. The facts are lack of regulation has allowed the pharmecuticals, the medical supply industrials, and insurance companies to rape their customers, the medical system, AND the government. And people such as yourself who are more interested in grinding axes and philosophies instead of dealing with the real numbers are allowing it to continue and making it worse. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/8/2008 9:19:48 AM | re:""""The United States spends six times more per capita on the administration of the health care system than its peer Western European nations.19"""
BUT WE MUST PROTECT THE INSURANCE COMPANY PROFITS!
To hell with everyone and everything, it is our top national priority! Those Socialist **stards, kill them, kill them all! Who do they think they are, anyway? We need a tortured, complicated, twisted non-system that has lots of room for hot, little hands to take a piece and turn over whatever is left to those disgusting little sick people! It's the BEST! God bless America!!!!!
And we will defend this non-system with our lives!!! Or deaths. Or whatever!!!!  | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/8/2008 9:28:49 AM | WarmthandPassion:
""""Steve, I really do not follow your logic about doctors. The fact is that if you take the ratio of what doctors have made in comparison to the minimum wage, you will see that doctor's wages have gone up like crazy since the 70's. Prior to that, I think doctors made about 12 times minimum wage or something close to that. Just like in any occupation, if you increase the number of people with that expertise, the cost for that expertise decreases. So, that is why I said training more doctors would reduce the cost of a doctor's visit and healthcare in general. """
You said that adding 4x as many doctors would save money. My math tells me that if the tab was, say $1M then it would become, say, $4M. Now flooding the market with doctors probably would depress their wages, let's say by 25%. that would make the new cost $3M, which is still triple the original cost.
Anyway, it's academic. Most people get nursing care and see very little of doctors. | |
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