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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/24/2008 6:54:10 AM | Gees, guess where the money from war came from?
I already told you. We went into DEBT to pay for the war. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend? It wouldn't have mattered if we reduced taxes or not, we didn't have the additional money in our budget to pay for it.
Why would the lower income earners need to support the wealthy?
Huh? Was this question up for discussion? The question was why should the wealthy support the lower income (excluding the poor -- obviously someone needs to keep them from starving and living on the street).
In Canada and in some european countries they might not have the luxuries of health and of great scientific research, but they do have dignity for all
Last I checked there were 5 million homeless people in Toronto, and Canada has the second largest homeless population of any first world nation (we are first).
Frankly I see two systems that have problems, but socialized medicine is not the solution.
YOu cannot abandon the weakest to their destiny.
That's why we have welfare and Medicaid for the poorest people in this country. What Canada, and many countries with socialized medicine do is pay for EVERYONE'S health care. What does this have to do with the poorest people?
The very poorest in our country ALREADY have health care. All we need to do is provide affordable health care to everyone else. I actually like Hillary Clinton's program, because it provides affordable health care to everyone, and allows them to choose from various plans, keeps the administration OUT of government. The poorest still get covered the way they always have.
Wow, 80 HIGH RISK pregnancies! I wouldn't say that that's a real big trend, would you?
That's JUST in BC. But the point is that Canada doesn't have the facilities to provide health care to its citizens now, and with an ageing population that problem is going to get worse. So you're sending your moms here. If the US didn't have redundancies in its system, we wouldn't be able to accommodate your mothers (not to mention people with other medical conditions that either come here and pay full freight, or that Canada sends here and pays for the care). If we didn't have those extra beds, some Canadian mothers would be having their babies on the street.
When was the last time you heard of a person coming to Canada because our health system didn't have beds? Equipment? Couldn't otherwise accommodate a patient?
Canada has entered the medical tourism field. In comparison to US health costs, medical tourism patients can save 30 to 60 percent on health costs in Canada.
The US has many more people coming to this country for health care than go to Canada, and both Americans and Canadians go abroad for health care. Some people in the US go abroad to save money. Canadians go abroad because they don't want to face unacceptably long wait times. Sometimes they are afraid that they will die while waiting.
The hot countries for medical tourism aren't the US OR Canada, but emerging 3rd world nations like India.
How many Americans go to Canada for health care, in a year, would you say? LOwer cost, equal or better quality......... any guesses?
Very very few. Canada has a serious shortage of essential medical equipment and hospital beds. There may be a few medical tourists that go to Canada for niche specialties, but for the most part there's nothing in Canada to attract most medical tourists. The entire country doesn't even have a proton therapy machine (unless you count the eye facility at Triumf). You have a couple of hundred MRI machines for 33 million people. Canada simply doesn't have the facilities to take care of its own, much less medical tourists.
Speaking of medical tourism, Ontario and BC have systems in place for the patients that they can't treat. Unfortunately the paperwork is so onerous that many patients just go ahead and pay for itself. But do you think that a provincial medical system that had adequate resources would be sending its patients out of the country?
http://medicaltourism.ca/medicaltourismcanada.html
I don't know of a single country with universal health care that doesn't have serious problems. It seems silly to trade one set of problems for another. This is why we need a different solution. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/24/2008 8:52:20 AM | Listen, Flyonthewall: you obviously have some problems in buying into the concept of social responsibility.
If businesses were socially responsible, the idea of universal health care would go into the garbage for good.
But the fact is that many individuals are unable to be individually responsible, let alone socially responsible....for ignorance, laziness, or whatever other reason, it does not matter.
Perhaps instead of teaching children to become money grabbers, we should teach them about social responsibility. Instead of teaching them than they are no. 1, we should teach them that there is a whole world out there of people below -1.
Those in Canada that don't have the patience to wait in line, are more that welcome to go in front of the line in the US......I don't see a problem with that. Affordable health care is not compatible with the needs of profit oriented corporations. Again, you can't leave judgment in the hands of sharks.....It is the principle that matters the most.
and Canada has the second largest homeless population of any first world nation (we are first) Exactly: you are the first.....Have you ever wondered why a huge homeless population is always a reality in the capitalist system but not in the socialized or mixed-economy system?
The US should realize that they will soon have no choice other than putting aside their run for power and starting caring about its own people....not feeding them and entertaining them, so that they lose the ability to think and to set priorities straight. This is not the time for war, it is time for humanity......Greed is driving us to death, don't you see? Are you still willing to support capitalist health care??? Wow, that would really matter, if you hadn't food, water and gas. What a way to set clear and socially responsible priorities!
Although Canada's system is not perfect and flawless, the difference is that we treat all people, not just the rich. In the US, even those with insurance, might have problems, without good lawyers, in having their rights acknowledged: it is a disgrace. If rich canadians don't want to stand in line like the rest of the common guys, they can buy their way to the front of the line in the US. I don't care about my life that much....It is more important that civil rights are guaranteed to all. | |
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Posted: 5/24/2008 1:45:55 PM |
If businesses were socially responsible, the idea of universal health care would go into the garbage for good.
Can't help you there. I pay for the health insurance for the employees of all of my businesses. I even pay their deductibles and copays.
The point isn't whether industry is socially responsible, but what do you do to make health care affordable so that most people can pay for it. The reason that most of the Democratic presidential candidates suggest extending the Federal employee health benefits to everyone is because they are affordable and have good service. Congressmen and Hill staffers also particpate in the plan (as I did when I was on the Hill).
Those in Canada that don't have the patience to wait in line, are more that welcome to go in front of the line in the US......I don't see a problem with that.
They are not only doing that, but availing themselves of the increasing numbers of private clinics -- especially prevalent in BC -- that offer joint replacements and other services for which patients wind up waiting on long lines. In fact, the President of the Canadian Medical Association, Brian Day, owns a private orthopedic clinic.
Eventually Canada will be two-tiered just like the UK. It might take a long time, but it's slowly been going in that direction.
Exactly: you are the first.....Have you ever wondered why a huge homeless population is always a reality in the capitalist system but not in the socialized or mixed-economy system?
Canada is second in the developed world, and not much behind the US. A few years ago it was AHEAD of the US.
That isn't much to brag about IMO.
Nonetheless, if you like your system, I have no problem with that. I don't live in Canada and outside of a visit I'm never going to be there. | |
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Posted: 5/25/2008 11:08:50 AM | We are simply in disagreement over the issue, Flyonthewall: I don't see a problem with that, you keep your opinion and I keep mine....the world is interesting because it is varied!
My main objection is this: I do not think that employers should be responsible for health insurance premiums. I do not trust my employer to do my taxes, why would I trust my employer with my health? And what about the millions that do not have an employer? It is a matter of justice. How much it costs, should not be a concern:they can cut other expenses...health and education should be priorities in a civilized society. I have never bought into the concept of keeping the market going....going where? Useless spending and major debt need to be controlled: you can't leave them in the hands of the individuals because the individuals are not responsible enough to make decision that benefit society at large. The individual tends to make decisions that benefit his Ego first, not society. But this is just my philosophy: old european school. | |
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Posted: 5/26/2008 2:02:31 AM | Flyonthewall
where are you getting your facts ?
ie. "Last I checked there were 5 million homeless people in Toronto, and Canada has the second largest homeless population of any first world nation (we are first)"
Toronto's population is 2.8 million.......so how could they have 5million homeless ?
A lot of your "knowledge" of the Canadian healthcare system seems to be unsubtansiated as well.
Our igloo hospitals are just so darn cold we have to send our patients in droves to the mighty American Express Hospitals. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/26/2008 3:04:29 AM | Our igloo hospitals are just so darn cold
Man you got that right. A fellow could freeze to death in the hospital here. Put a fellow in half a robe with a thin sheet and blanket then turn the thermostat down to just above freezing. Stupid. Let me die warm at least.
I hope the US is never selfish nor stupid enough to follow our social system. It's far too expensive to "carry" everyone all the time. I lose 52% of my gross income to various taxes just to maintain a socialist system of privelidged poverty. The wealthy may pay a smaller portion but it amounts to far more dollar wise and they do keep the economy going. If it were up to the lower and middle classes we would be bankrupt as well as highly lethargic. I would far sooner have the opportunity to keep my earnings and pay my own way while taking the chance i might have to use my health insurance than stay under this inept, costly system. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/26/2008 4:47:12 AM |
Toronto's population is 2.8 million.......so how could they have 5million homeless ?
Sorry, that was a typo. It was 5 thousand in 2006. The source was the City of Toronto Street Needs Assessment Report.
http://www.toronto.ca/housing/streetneeds.htm
On the other hand, New York City with a population of over 8 million had 3,025 homeless:
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/city-sees-drop-in-homeless-population/
So it seems the tide may be turning the other way with Canada outranking us and regaining the number one position in the developed world.
I may goof once in a while, but NOTHING I say is unsubstantiated. I've just given up putting in links and references because this thread is so LONG. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/26/2008 8:25:53 AM | http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deborah-burger/ugly-health-care-waiting-_b_55749.html
Here's a good article on waiting times in Canada and the US. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/27/2008 8:45:38 AM | Sorry fly you goof a lot more then once in awhile, and far more then you think of what you say is unsubstantiated. Nor does the posting of links alone prove a point.
NYC with a population greater then 8 million had 3,025 RECORDED street homeless however that was because of moves since the Guiliani administration to hide, disavow, and deport homeless in NYC that has continued to this day. That does not include the 33,597 homeless in the shelters. The true estimate of NYC's homeless is 102,187 as of 2007. And thats without tracking how many might be transient between the city and Long Island/New Jersey. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 5/28/2008 7:35:55 PM | Just something to make us laugh...something that I heard from Malher.
" The good news: Bush finally acknowledge that global warming is a reality.The bad news are: He wants to invade the sun"
A typical example of how one can find solutions that make no sense , from a standpoint of social responsibility......like the plan for private health care: how to shoot one's own foot. OH My! | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/1/2008 1:50:16 AM | The Canadian health care system is not "free"..but it is viewed and defended as a "basic right" that every Canadian is entitled too regardless off their income or social status.
I am a Canadian. My boyfriend works in the US and I have seen first hand how ridiculous the insurance companies can be when they have to reimburse clients (like my boyfriend) for minor medical costs. He has a very good job with a major airline...yet he is still required to pay almost $175.00 a month for medical coverage and is constantly trying to vlaidate most of his medical claims and expenses to the insurance company. Exactly who has the power in the US health care system right now?
Can anyone explain to me how the US administration can justify spending billions on a war with Iraq, yet can't support the people in their own country when a massive disaster happens? What kind of doctors are you attracting to your medical profession when there is no consience on the doctors part. What kind of hycoriciy exists in the medical field when doctors have no problem turning away patients who need help..based on a finacial portfolio and accessable medical insurance coverage of the patient.
I have met alot of arrogant Americans when I have travelled throughout the US for business. The one thing that strikes me most is the indiguous arguments that some make in attemp to show "patriotism". Funny thing is..it is easy to be patriotic if you get a substancial write off....and enjoy great medical coverage.
I live in Ontario. I pay 13% tax for any retail purchases I make (even the poor people do). I pay taxes at a rate of 33% of my salary to the government. I pay almost 4% in taxes of what my home's estimated value is....I may not be on top of the income scale..and may contribute less than some..but I will never complain about the taxes I pay as long as there are basic social services available for those who need them.
Anyone I know who is trying to raise a couple of kids does not have an extra $10 after paying the mortage and car payment..let's not forget those fees for activities the kids want to be involved in.
However, the one thing I am certain of is that in no way will the Canadian government be successful in implementing a two-tiered haelthcare system accross Canada.
Perhaps BC and Quebec have been marginally successful in opening some private health care clinincs in those provinces....but Canada is not like the US.....we will hold our Federal government responsible for the provinces they govern. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/1/2008 5:25:32 AM | It's not widespread yet, but there are clinics of EVERY type from ob/gyn to family medicine, and not just in Quebec and BC. I don't know if you're familiar with a website called "findprivateclinics.ca", but they list various places where you can get private medical care in Canada.
Since you live in Ontario, here are a few near you:
Wellpoint Health Services
http://www.wellpointhealthservices.com/
Mississauga Wellness
http://www.mississaugawellness.com/
Regal Health Services
http://regalhealthservices.com/
This last one works with OHIP, and will get reimbursed where services are covered, you have to belong to the service at a cost of $3,300 per year. For that you get to see their physicians without the usual interminable waiting lists to see a doctor. They also arrange out of province or out of country diagnostic testing when necessary. It's a lot like the conceirge medical services offered in the United States.
Anyway, it's not terribly hard to get private medical care, even in Ontario. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/2/2008 5:35:18 PM | Oh Gosh Flyonthewall, who gives a shit if some private clinics in Canada are successfull in making money out of the wealthy. Who cares if it is possible for private clinics to make money, unsupported by the government? Canadians are a way too socially responsible and too humanitarians ( and far ahead as far as human rights, just after France) to accept this kind of compromise.
After all, we are CIVIL. We make peace, not war.
We care the most for those that are not wealthy and still receive health care. Some people just can't understand the principle ( mainly your big brains in the US, with an Ego bigger than a tower.....).
Personally, even if I could, I would never ever move to the US....the sheer ignorance and rudeness in social matters that I have personally encountered would never be forgotten. And they think they have the best there is! Good Lord. Better Europe then.
already told you. We went into DEBT to pay for the war You were broke a long before, primarily because your economy is built on debt. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/2/2008 5:40:26 PM | the fact is if you are poor, that means no assets, you are covered 100% by medicaid. its only the working poor who dont have good or any health plans that get screwed. the middle classes and above have good health plans that cover them, the rich have money to cover, and the poor and illegals use the emergency rooms like they were doctors offices. its a bogus issue, but thats nothing new for the democrats who tie it into global warming and the like.
$175 is cheap if its a good health plan. florida just signed into law a program requiring ALL businesses to offer plans, requiring the employee to pay at least $150.
word on the canadian medical system is that you can die waiting for it. whether thats true or not, thats the word. i notice the canadians dont come down here to winter in the numbers they used to.... im guessing they go to cuba, south america or other areas. | |
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Posted: 6/2/2008 5:46:02 PM | | wrong: the middle class in the us choose not to have health care because they can't afford it ( it is partly irresponsibility, yet sometimes taking the risks pay off, if it doesn't, well, if it doesn't you are broke: too bad - politicians say) . Not only the street poors, a larger number of the population has problems in getting their rights acknowledged in the USA. And the ethics of the medical doctors is where? In the emergency room, of course, where do you expect it to be? Not everything has a price, remember: social ethics can be free. But whom I am talking about.....education that can barely be called as such, a run for power and money that only destroys.....when will people wake up and make their government responsible? I bet pretty soon it will happen. Words about the canadian medical systems are often unjustified......can you imagine if journalists could publish all the bad stories of US health care? Unfortunately they can't. You guys are soooooo brainwashed with the love of your country, that cannot even see what is in front of the world's eyes. Good luck with the European Union coming strong....they have better values, everybody knows that. If a country cannot bridge the gap between wealth and poverty in terms of social rights, it is destined for failure: all the great empires went down because of corruption and moral irresponsibility...The US is next......unless somebody puts a break to the fall. Why do you think that Obama is going so strong? Not only because of him, but mainly because the times are ripe. If Hillary didn't look as corrupt as she could or could not be, she would be ahead. But she bought into the crap in the past, it's obvious that people don't trust her. Better a young man that seems to be as strong as one can be, under the circumstances. After all, America likes meritocracy ( and there is a lot of good things to say about that, don't get me wrong: it's not all shit, just the health care in the US is -- and I would add "high school education"- but that is just the opinion of a socialist european. If only americans studied the Classics instead of watching sitcoms!) | |
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Posted: 6/2/2008 6:44:01 PM | | In Canada, it happens that an hospital does not have enough beds available and the patient gets re-located....that is mismanagement. But what about the insurance companies in the US establishing maximums allowed? It's like saying that a condition cannot be too serious, otherwise they cut the funding? uh??? There are cases of middle class americans who went bankrupt because they had a baby being born with a genetic condition that required super care. Is that fair? Socially speaking it is a disgrace. Sure in Canada, you might have to wait, but at least you don't go bankrupt. Is is a matter of choosing the less evil of the two. In the end who holds the power matters. Not that here it is perfect, just more civil, in my opinion. People should not be scared of the future because they cannot pay enough. | |
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Posted: 6/2/2008 6:46:02 PM | OK, let me put it this way: if Medicare were relegislated and was no longer restricted to the aged and disabled so that an individual or through one's employer could purchase the plan.....is that "socialized medicine"?
And if, because it is a very large group of people and has very good economies of scale and low administration rates (5% vs. 30% for private insurance), if it were also a very good buy and a lot of people, say even the majority of people, were to choose it....is that "socialized medicine?". | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/2/2008 6:52:22 PM | To me that is socially responsible medicine. There is no such thing as socialized medicine, we are not at the time of the russian empire anymore........"Socialist" means socially responsible, not "run by politics". Ideally you could imagine a socially responsible private health care, but not under the current US social thought.......there is no basis: money rules.
My ex business administration professor used to say that businesses should have a sense of social responsibility....I told him he was a dreamer, but hei, he died of cancer even though he was wealthy.....maybe he was right. I just can't imagine a society of put down egos in name of equanimity......we are not that civilized, the sense of self-survival will always take over. This is why the government needs to step in. Can't leave health care in the hands of sharks. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/2/2008 7:14:47 PM | forumbloom, you make some good points but I would also add that in my opinion as a public health professional in state government, insurance itself is the wrong model for health care. Insurance is financial indemnity, it is geared to salvage organs like it is geared to repair cars or boats or houses and indemnify people from financial loss.
It is not suited to the health care needs of today. 65% of people in the US account for less than 2% of health care costs, 80-90% is from less than 25% of people and nearly all of them have one or more chronic diseases.
If you look at chronic diseases ...diabetes, asthma, heart disease ...most of these are lifestyle-related, the money pays for lifestyle-related disease.....not epidemics or accidents. And only a very small percent of people ever need the high tech, high risk stuff ......HUGE amounts of money can be saved by better preventive care and better chronic disease management, but insurances are just not geared for it.....and there is no money in preventive care for the providers, either.
It's not just how it is financed, it's how it's organized but the organization of it is also dictated by the financing.
A good example, asthma is the biggest cause of ER and hospital admissions in Massachusetts, yet a Harvard study showed that only 14% of asthmatics had an asthma management plan on record........the rest of them, it can be assumed, did not know how to manage their asthma so off to the ER or admitted for observation to a hospital at $1,500 a day.
Would if that number were 94%, what a differnce that could make!
I dont mean to pick on asthmatics, but just as an example ..... it takes patient teaching, follow-up, good nursing care, proactive care, etc. .....not waiting until a severe event, which is when insurances usually kick in .....and not waiting for an organ to be salvaged, but preventing it from ever having to happen.
The way it is in America is about profit, what the money flows to ...
I think Obama and Clinton have it wrong with their universal health care ideas based on the Massachusetts model, they are compromising and they are bowing to the insurance and medical lobbies who will benefit greatly. Better than what we have, but a big, big price tag.... and not the way to go. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/2/2008 7:43:54 PM |
If you look at chronic diseases ...diabetes, asthma, heart disease ...most of these are lifestyle-related, the money pays for lifestyle-related disease.....not epidemics or accidents. And only a very small percent of people ever need the high tech, high risk stuff
Say WHAT asthma a lifestyle related disease? Where on earth did you get that? Your correct in that insurance is the wrong model, technically any profit model is the wrong model but thats an arguement the general populace remains willfully ignorant of. | |
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Posted: 6/2/2008 8:00:38 PM | Darling Steven, that is a matter of education. People can get their education on line nowadays. But with genetic disease all you can do is to gain the information you can to cope. I agree, Both Obama and Clinton will compromise, but who would try getting the power off those money handlers without getting killed? Only one willing to compromise can. Hillary is not compromising at all on health care and this is why she is losing: she is too strict, and the many born liberals don't like "too strict": smells like of prison to them. Like freedom was at all possible in a civilized society  One does what one can with what one what has. USA was born out of pioneers who liked to risk....nothing one can do about it....you have to work with what you have got. | |
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| ?FREE? Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/2/2008 8:13:07 PM | FREE ?
nothing is free....
we are what?.. 9 trillion in debt..
oh yea...25+% of ALL FEDERAL INCOME TAXES
GOES TO PAY...JUST THE INTEREST..on our CURRENT DEBT
just the interest !
untill this country gets a handle on it foolish debt
there should be no new programs..of ANYTHING
and...current programs need to be SLASHED TO THE BONE | |
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Posted: 6/2/2008 8:29:29 PM | Firenight: Lifestyle does affect the incidence and control of asthma. My state has the highest incidence, there is no excuse for not teaching people how to control it as well as how to eliminate triggers in the home and workplace, etc.
And my darling Forumbloom, control of diabetes isn't just something you get out of a book or pick up online. The Joslin Diabetes Center here has an inpatient teaching program that is very intensive and a lifesaver, they have to subsidize the cost of it from donations and other sources of funds, very hard to get insurances to pay for it.
Hilary is hoping to open up Medicare to the general population, I am pretty certain of it ......but I still maintain that insurance is the wrong model, just more bringing antiques into the future. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/2/2008 8:33:17 PM | | are you against or in favor of Hillary's plan? Yes, funding for resource centers and information centers would be great: public awareness is always a great thing with everything. It's mainly work done by associations and not-profit organizations for now, at least in Canada. But the most urgent thing in the US would be to get coverage for everybody. If it is was up to me, I would demand it.....but thank God I am not a politician: they would immediately kill me. You know, I run italian blood, like Sonia Ghandi. | |
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| FREE Federalized Health Care
Posted: 6/3/2008 7:34:32 AM |
Lifestyle does affect the incidence and control of asthma. My state has the highest incidence, there is no excuse for not teaching people how to control it as well as how to eliminate triggers in the home and workplace, etc.
Umm sorry no Steven Lifestyle does not infact affect incidence of asthma. It can and does affect attacks, but not the origination of the disease. The exception of that of course is smokers. Causes for asthma are many and varied and only a few VERY few are even remotely lifestyle related. As to controlling the disease or any illness yes we can work to prevention but the current system does not. Thats a different issue however. If your premise is that chronic diseases are lifestyle matters and can be prevented outright your are very very off the mark. | |
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