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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/12/2008 8:24:23 PM | This is very much a derailment from the original topic, so for those not interested in this post, feel free to ignore me. I'm just going to reply to Outofthedesert's comments:
I am 57, was raised in the Catholic Church, taught dogma/CCD for 25 years and understand what the Church teaches. There are many non-Catholics who believe in transsubstanitation. The Church does not ask that belief of someone before communion, they ask you be a Catholic.
The Church clearly requires that a communicant believe in transubstantiation; and if he didn't, I'm not sure why he would even want to receive. As I said before, "For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself" (1 Cor. 11:29).
The Church also allows Eastern Orthodox to receive Communion, because they share the same beliefs on the Eucharist and their priests administer valid absolution in confession. The Code of Canon Law states:
"Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full Communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned" (CIC 844 § 3).
I have spoken to many Catholics who have difficulty with that belief and others, but still take communion and without Confession. I understand about their state of grace, etc, but it is not my job to judge their state of grace.
It's not my job, either. But I can safely say that the Church requires communicants to have absolved their sins through the sacrament of confession. This is, again, a principle derived from the Church's understanding of Scripture: "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup" (1 Cor. 11:27–28)
This understanding has existed in Christian teaching since the very beginning, as the 1st-century document, the Didache, states:
"But first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one" (Didache 14)
And so, the Code of Canon Law states:
"A person who is conscious of a grave sin is not to . . . receive the body of the Lord without prior sacramental confession unless a grave reason is present and there is no opportunity of confessing; in this case the person is to be mindful of the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, including the intention of confessing as soon as possible" (CIC 916).
If you ask what the church believes--it is based on the Bible and tradition--study will reveal those traditions were based on pagan ritual to entice the new converts to have a familiar act to make the transition from their pagan belief to the Christian easier.
The Church's teachings are founded on Scripture and (capital-T) Tradition; that is, the oral traditions handed down from the Apostles, given that most of the Apostles never wrote a word of Scripture. This is what St. Paul admonished Christians to do: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle." (2 Th. 2:15)
There is no doctrine of the Church which is "pagan". For example, you've listed "Christmas trees, Easter Eggs. yule logs, Christmas Stockings and I could go on." However, none of these are doctrines of the Catholic Church. I don't have a Catholic family, so I don't even exercise any of these customs.
But do I demonize them because of their dis-belief? No. That is not my job. The Bible says my job is to love them.
Then you can put that to practice by not demonizing my Church or my beliefs. Thank you.
I understand the concept of confession but also know that the Bible teaches that no one shall come to the Father except through me-Jesus. I can pray directly to God, so I can ask Him to forgive my sins.
And the Bible also teaches that the Apostles and their successors (those bishops, priests, and deacons who can trace their ordination in an unbroken chain of succession to one of the Apostles) have the power to absolve sin in Jesus' name. That is why Christ breathed the Holy Ghost on them and said:
"Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.' When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.'" (John 20:21-23)
It is important to note, BTW, that this is the only other time in Scripture that God breathes on man: the other is when He breathed life into Adam in Genesis. Indeed, the sacrament of confession/reconciliation breathes life into the soul.
The role of priests as ambassadors for Christ is, again, a Scriptural idea. "For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins. And he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us, for Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God." (2 Cor. 5:19-20)
As far as the popes, read the history of the popes.
I have. All 267 of them, from Peter to Benedict XVI, from both Catholic and secular historiographies. I naturally had to consider these before I converted.
Some were married and had children and several palaces--non-marriage was a recent change (as the history of the church goes). Popes had mistresses, amassed wealth--
Indeed, the first pope, St. Peter, was married. The status of a pope being married or not is irrelevant to their legitimate authority; (my priest is married, because he was formerly an Episcopalian priest before he converted and was given a dispensation to be ordained as a Catholic priest anyway. And many Eastern-rite priests are married.) Also irrelevant is whether or not they led moral lives. Some had mistresses and amassed wealth, sure: and others remained lifelong virgins and maintained monastic vows of poverty even after being raised to the Papacy. Does it matter either way? No; Peter did not lose the keys even after he denied Christ three time on the morning of Good Friday.
The question about a priest's morality or lack thereof reminds me of a story about St. Francis of Assisi:
"Francis was not a reformer; he preached about returning to God and obedience to the Church. Francis must have known about the decay in the Church, but he always showed the Church and its people his utmost respect. When someone told him of a priest living openly with a woman and asked him if that meant the Mass was polluted, Francis went to the priest, knelt before him, and kissed his hands -- because those hands had held God."
do you know which bank is the richest in the world?
Citigroup, at $2.4 trillion, according to Forbes Global 2000 in March 2007.
I imagine you were itching to bash the Catholic Church by saying it's the "Vatican Bank", but the Institute for Religious Works (the Vatican Bank) is not even in the top 2,000 richest companies in the world.
If you are as tolerant and not bitter as you say you are, then you wouldn't toss around these kinds of accusations.
Do you know where a great deal of the money and art work was protected during the WWII?
Vatican City, of course. The Vatican protected many things and people during that era, including many Jews and Allied soldiers from the Nazi occupation forces. Between 4,000 and 7,000 Jews were hidden, fed, and clothed in the Vatican and in Church properties around the city of Rome, as well as the Pope's summer residence in Castel Gandolfo. The Jewish historian, Rabbi Daniel Lapide, writes:
"in Rome we saw a list of 155 convents and monasteries—Italian, French, Spanish, English, American, and also German—mostly extraterritorial property of the Vatican . . . which sheltered throughout the German occupation some 5,000 Jews in Rome. No less than 3,000 Jews found refuge at one time at the Pope’s summer residence at Castel Gandolfo; sixty lived for nine months at the Jesuit Gregorian University, and half a dozen slept in the cellar of the Pontifical Bible Institute."
After the war ended, the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, converted to Catholicism and was baptized with Pope Pius XII's first name, Eugenio, in thanks for his role in protecting the Jewish community. For this, Albert Einstein said:
"Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty."
Has it been returned to its rightful owners?
I don't have an inventory, so I can't say. I can say, however, that most of the Vatican's supposed "wealth" is not actually owned by the Church. If you're thinking of the many statues, artworks, gold candlesticks, etc., most of them belong to the government of Italy or private owners, even though the Church commissioned and paid for them at the time they were created.
Read the Bible story about the widow's mite. She gave all she had. Jesus had nothing. The pope lives in a palace with servants.
Just because there is a palace in the Vatican does not mean that the Pope himself lives in the lap of luxury. The Vatican Palace grounds are, for the most part, open to the public where generations of the faithful and non-believers can admire the works of the master arists of the past. As for the Pope himself, he lives in an apartment which is actually rather stark, with a simple bed, a desk, and a chair. He lives a rigorous schedule of work and prayer from 5 in the morning until midnight. A lot of people would probably die from exhaustion from it. You say you do not judge; if you don't, then don't judge the lifestyle of the Pontiff.
By the way, many Catholic priests, bishops, and even popes, do indeed give up everything they have, when they join a monastic or mendicant order such as the Benedictines, Franciscans, Dominicans, or Carmelites. And of course, all clergy who are celibate give up sex and lifelong companionship for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Don't forget that.
What I am trying to get you to understand is that your faith has to be in God not in a building or what a group of men rewrite as your beliefs every several hundred years.
My faith is in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Again, you are (apparently) making judgments about me. But the Church is still important to me, because the Church is not just a building or a hierarchy, but is the mystical body of Christ which all the faithful are a part of. Thus, when you talk trash about the Church, you talk trash about me, because I am a part of her.
The Catholic Church refuses communion to another Christian because we assume he/she does not believe as we do since they call themselves a Methodist, Baptist, etc. We ASSUME, we did not ask. I now attend a protestant church who say "the table is open to all who confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior". Catholics don't ask what is believed by the non-Catholic, they assume.
The Church assumes in good faith that anyone who comes forward to receive Communion has spiritually prepared themselves by confession, fasting, and a faithful disposition which reveres and worships Christ in the Host.
If I find myself in a Protestant church during their Communion, I politely refuse to receive from them, out of respect for my and their beliefs. When I was about 17 and refused Communion at my mom's Protestant church, a lot of my elder friends, who were ministers or deacons there, were frustrated. There is a lot of assuming going around everywhere. I don't hold it against them, though, nor do I bash their church here.
The newer converts fall in love with the ritual just as the older ones who have it so ingrained. I love the ritual but I also understand--as would you with some research--all that ritual is based on paganism (black and white). Before I get flamed--I know that not all do this--I am simply trying to get the poster to understand the rituals are not Christ based but based on what the "temple" worshippers in Rome and the Holy Land did. The altar for the sacrifice of animals, virgins, fruit, first born or the bread and wine. The drinking of blood or wine. Christmas trees, Easter Eggs. yule logs, Christmas Stockings and I could go on.
Although I freely admit to attending only traditional Catholic Masses sung in Latin, I didn't convert to Catholicism because I liked rituals, but only because I believed it to be the faith taught in Scripture and proven by history.
There is no ritual in the Catholic Mass that is not centered on the mystery of Christ's passion, crucifixion, and resurrection.
The altar for the sacrifice of animals, virgins, fruit, first born or the bread and wine.
In the pre-Vatican II Mass, the priest recites the 43nd psalm at the beginning of Mass, which says, "And I will go in to the altar of God: to God who giveth joy to my youth."
The altar of sacrifice is laden throughout the Old Testament, from Abel and Cain's sacrifice, to Noah's after the flood, to Abraham and Isaac, to Melchizedec's offering of bread and wine, to the covenant of Moses. In fact, in the Roman Canon of the Mass, before the priest consecrates the Host, he cites these Scriptural examples when praying:
"Deign to look upon them with a favorable and gracious countenance, and to accept them as Thou didst accept the offerings of Thy just servant Abel, and the sacrifice of our Patriarch Abraham, and that which Thy high priest Melchisedech offered up to Thee, a holy Sacrifice, an immaculate Victim."
And according to Revelation, there is an altar in heaven. "And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God." (Rev. 8:3)
The drinking of blood or wine.
This isn't Christ-centered? Jesus said: "He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever." (John 6)
Christmas trees, Easter Eggs. yule logs, Christmas Stockings and I could go on.
As I said before, Catholicism is really independent of these family customs. Being a single bachelor in a non-Catholic family, I don't practice any of these. Ain't nothing wrong with Christmas trees and Easter eggs, though.
You are preaching to the choir---------I have read all the dogma, all the CCD Books and what I understand most is that the Church failed me--God didn't.
So are you, I suppose. Before I was Catholic, I was a Protestant. It doesn't really matter, though. This is a discussion forum, and discussion happens. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/12/2008 9:51:38 PM | THIS IS A TEST: Do any of you Catholics know where the fish on Friday tradition started? I'll tell you!
Back in the days of the Vikings and the Viking religious preferences...each God had a specific purpose. Freya was the Goddess of love and beauty and she was also the Goddess of the fisher folk. To honor her they set up a day that was known as
"Freya's Day". It was the fifth day of the week and over a period of time "Freya's Day" became Friday. On that day only fish were eaten. No red meat was cooked, or served. When the Catholics came to be and migrated into the Nordic countries...they took the tradition of fish on Friday and began using it themselves
And that's where the fish on Friday thing started. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/12/2008 9:53:32 PM | RE: First post again.
Jesus... catholic schoolgirl outfits or naked dancing ceremonies... its a seriously "hard" choice... pun intended. ^_^ | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/12/2008 10:13:30 PM | THIS IS A TEST: Do any of you Catholics know where the fish on Friday tradition started? I'll tell you!
Back in the days of the Vikings and the Viking religious preferences...each God had a specific purpose. Freya was the Goddess of love and beauty and she was also the Goddess of the fisher folk. To honor her they set up a day that was known as
"Freya's Day". It was the fifth day of the week and over a period of time "Freya's Day" became Friday. On that day only fish were eaten. No red meat was cooked, or served. When the Catholics came to be and migrated into the Nordic countries...they took the tradition of fish on Friday and began using it themselves
And that's where the fish on Friday thing started.
No offense, but your answer is just plain wrong and unhistorical. It's a bit like the myth that "fish on Fridays began so the pope could boost his fishing industry". Thanks for trying, though.
The custom of meatless Fridays was written about in the 1st century document, the Didache, as well as by early Church Fathers of the Greek-speaking region of the Roman Empire such as Tertullian (160-235 AD; De jejun., xiv) and St. Clement of Alexandria (150-211 AD; Strom., VI, 75), long before the Middle Ages and the Vikings. The purpose of abstaining from meat is to make a token act of penance in remembrance for the day Christ died (Good Friday). Fish was not considered meat in canon law, though, because the Latin word for "meat", "carnis", refers only to land animals. Fish was also permitted to give people the necessary amount of nutrients.
Of course, the idea of penance is obscured when certain people go out to eat crab and lobster at an expensive restaurant on Fridays. It would make more sense to forget fish as well and stick with a salad. As for myself, I try to keep to the spirit of the tradition by eating a simple meal of bread and fish, alone (and I hate fish). Bread and fish was the diet most often mentioned in the gospels regarding what Christ and the Apostles ate on a daily basis. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/12/2008 10:30:27 PM | Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I will certainly pass this along to a friend who is a professor of Nordic History and see what he says.
And.....as one Cardinal said to another: "I don't care what the Pope says! I'm still eating fish on Friday!"  | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/12/2008 10:44:46 PM |
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I will certainly pass this along to a friend who is a professor of Nordic History and see what he says.
I'm a major in History and perhaps a future history professor. History professors sometimes say weird things, or things that over-emphasize the significance of whatever subject they specialize on. This reminds me of my East Asian History professor who claimed that the line "but deliver us from evil" was added to the Lord's Prayer as a result of the medieval Mongol invasions! This is despite the fact that "but deliver us from evil" is clearly in all of the oldest gospel texts we have available.
Anyway, this isn't to discredit history professors, because they are often extremely smart in their fields of study, but they'll say some pretty off-the-wall things every once in a while. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/12/2008 11:14:59 PM | I was scrolling back along this thread and found this by metalvixxen:
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Are wiccans pagans?
I think they're close...
and most catholic traditions are derived from paganism. I never understood really why catholics have a problem with pagans. I can see why with wicca... witchcraft...
But is she wiccan or wicca?
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Not all Pagans are Wiccans and not all Wiccans are Pagans. You mention here "Wicthcraft". May I presume that you think Witchcraft is evil? Let me clear the air about this.
White Witchcraft is definitely NOT evil. It is an Earth Science. It is the knowing of which herbs leaves, roots etc are good for healing. Witches who practice White Magic are healers and teachers. There is nothing evil about that.
Now on the other side of that coin we have Black Magic. This IS evil. Those who claim to be a Witch and practice Black Magic are not true Witches. They are Witch wannabes. They have taken what we consider sacred and turned it into evil. They are the ones who will cast an evil spell. We true Witches will NEVER cast an evil spell. We would be breaking our own code by doing that. Number 16 in the Witches Code is: "Cast ye not an evil spell, least ye receive it back in threefold." In other words....if we were to cast an evil spell on someone....we would get it back...three times as bad.
Generally speaking the term "Witchcraft" had been maligned with evil simply because those who hear, or read it don't know that there are two types of Witchcraft. White and black.
Does that help clarify things? | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/12/2008 11:33:34 PM | Where the hell are all the pagans who dance naked around campfires? The non-pagans seem to know more about this than I do. Maybe I have met the wrong Wiccans and other pagans.
Err,,Guardnerians and many others do skyclad rituals ,,its the wiccan way for many,,get used to it,(skyclad means butt naked by the way)
as far as the OP ,,,it really depends on what kind of wiccan she is.Is she a traditional wiccan?Dianic Wiccan?
Or perhaps she is a ecletic wiccan?
If she is traditional,,you wont know that she is a memeber of a coven more than likely.
Is she a High Priestess?What degree?While not all covens have both a High Priest and a High Priestess,,many do,,so,,would you have a problem with her performing rituals with another man as her High Priest?
If she has not yet reached her 3rd degree,,and she is a traditional wiccan,,would you mind her performing sexual activity in her initiation rite into the 3rd degree?It is reguired that 3rd degrees perform the GReat Rite,,,which involves sexual activity of some sort or another.(this is common knowledge by the way,,you can find it in books at any book store)
Will you have a problem with that?Not all wiccans act out the great Rite,,some do it symbolicly.Either way,,you will be connected to a coven somewhat,,if she is,,even if you are never aware of it.But not all wiccans are involved in covens,so at the least you will need to be tolerant of her views,,dont try to convert her,,dont become alarmed if you find little leather bags and pentagrams hanging around the house.
Witchcraft is a way of life,,it is a religion,,and its roots are deep to those who have embraced the Goddess of the Witch.
So it will depend upon her level of involvment and dedication.
Do you like drumming circles?(get used to them,,they are fun)
Do you mind her celebrating the 8 sabbats in your home?Will you tolerate an altar to a Goddess in your home?Will you tolerate her invoking another God?Like say The Horned God?Or,Hern the Hunter?Or,,Pan?Or,,take your pick.
Do you like incense and candles?
Will you have a problem with her covenmates coming to your home,,if she askes them too?You may not know they are her covenmates,but a coven is a family,,so if she is involved with a coven,,she will have her magickal family that you may not be a part of.
Can you handle that?
And do you mind your children being taught the ways of the witch?Children ussually are not allowed to take part in any type of mentoring,,until they are of age.But I am sure some of her ways will be taught to her daughter if their is one.Even if you dont know it.
And lastly,,like I said,,it depends on what kind of wiccan she is,,has she been initiated?And into what tradition?Its like christians,,if your girl friend told you she was a christian,,it would seem reasonable to ask,,what church or denomination do you adhere to.Or ,What church do you attend.
Not all churches are tha same.
So ask yourself these questions,,and if she allows it,,ask her if you can attend one of her esbats or sabbat celebrations,,and get a book on wicca and read it,,but ask her for advice on what book to get,,it will reflect her brand of wicca I believe.
If she tells you her tradition,,then research it.
If she loves you,,keep her.
But whatever you do,,dont mess with her,and dont misstreat her.
Treat her like you would treat a Goddess,especially if she is a HPss,,or treat her like you would the Virgin Mary(except for the virgin part,and you dont have to pray to her )
Good luch. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/12/2008 11:46:21 PM | MAGICAT: I too have heard those tales about Pagans dancing naked around a fire and in some cases that may be true???? I have a feeling, though, that this tale is nothing more than a fairy tale, concocted by one who had no concept of Paganism. Along the same lines as all of us Pagans drink goat's blood. I, personally, prefer 
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/12/2008 11:58:18 PM |
MAGICAT: I too have heard those tales about Pagans dancing naked around a fire and in some cases that may be true???? I have a feeling, though, that this tale is nothing more than a fairy tale, concocted by one who had no concept of Paganism. Along the same lines as all of us Pagans drink goat's blood. I, personally, prefer
That kind of thing will be said about almost everyone. I don't know if you know about "Maria Monk" or Jack Chick tracts, but some people seem to really believe that nuns' convents exist to serve as brothels for priests, and that the babies that are produced from these unholy unions are sacrificed to Satan on subterranean altars. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 12:08:32 AM | Jacobus101 said:
That kind of thing will be said about almost everyone. I don't know if you know about "Maria Monk" or Jack Chick tracts, but some people seem to really believe that nuns' convents exist to serve as brothels for priests, and that the babies that are produced from these unholy unions are sacrificed to Satan on subterranean altars.
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Now that I haven't heard, but I'll put in the same boat as Pagans drinking goat's blood. A whole lot of nonsense! | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 12:13:02 AM | {quote]The Church clearly requires that a communicant believe in transubstantiation; and if he didn't, I'm not sure why he would even want to receive. As I said before, "For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself" (1 Cor. 11:29).[/quote}
This may come as a shock to you, but even with your quote the idea of transubstantiation is still a tradition and not one of the 93 statements that form the core of Catholic canon and which are required to agree with to be a Catholic. Much of every religion is tradition rather than mandatory belief. Most of the Catholic required beliefs are included in the creed, which is almost completely the same creed said by other Christians. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 12:22:29 AM | In 1993 I reneted a room to a Wiccan. She was a little odd but not in the bizarre category. On the other hand I also rented rooms and had acquaintances that were Catholic and other mainstream faiths that were outright bizarre! It si the degree of the person's faith and their character and exhibition of strangeness that should be the determining factors. At rare moments I sing Stevie Nicks in my shower and car on occasion when I have the radio on but that does not mae me a bizarro... uh, er... well, let's see, I did contemplate dancing around a campfire last week buck naked and yesterday did contemplate riding out of a Santa Monica traffic jam on a broom. Hmmmm. Do you suppose??? | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 12:23:32 AM | If I can get a word in here without any bad joo joo,
I think it should be an issue between the the two people who are dating.
I have my belief system,and they have theirs,we can agree to disagree or
find some common ground between our two beliefs.
I enjoy listening to what others have to say,but it does'nt make me
a practitioner of that certain subject.
Just as I have my own beliefs,I don't expect anyone to jump onto my band wagon either.Personaly I can't stand faiths that constantly have to smother people
that theirs,is the only true faith.It's not a competition or game that needs
to be won! | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 12:38:57 AM |
This may come as a shock to you, but even with your quote the idea of transubstantiation is still a tradition and not one of the 93 statements that form the core of Catholic canon and which are required to agree with to be a Catholic. Much of every religion is tradition rather than mandatory belief. Most of the Catholic required beliefs are included in the creed, which is almost completely the same creed said by other Christians.
Why do you say that? It should be pretty clear that the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is at the heart of the Catholic faith (see Pope Benedict XVI's letter, Sacramentum Caritatis, "On the Eucharist as the Source and Summit of the Church's Life and Mission"). http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html)
You're right, most of the Catholic faith's core teachings can be summed up in the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed, but they don't contain everything.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states plainly:
1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."
Furthermore, the Council of Trent itself made two canons on the subject:
"CANON I.-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.
"CANON II.-If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema."
If that's not a strong enough source (speaking from one Catholic to another; naturally, the Council of Trent doesn't mean anything to anyone else on this board), then I offer my apologies for being an "unenlightened" or "unliberated" Papist. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 4:48:10 AM | [Where the hell are all the pagans who dance naked around campfires?]
Try a pagan festival such as the one in Sherman, New York...It's called "Brushwood"! They have HUGE bonfires in the summer and many walk around (dance too) naked..(Large drum circles too... fabulous!) It's a clothing optional campground for pagans and ones who are interested. They have an online site too.. just go look it up....they have things going on in the pagan community all year round. There are many pagan activities and festivals all over. Almost all locals have some pagan group of some sort you might want to join and learn more from too, if anyone may be interested.
As to Christmas trees and mistletoe and yule logs ONLY being tradition and not part of the Catholic core or doctrine and another comment saying that nothing was wrong with the trees, easter eggs, etc.... The Scriptures state that one bad apple will spoil the whole barrel. So one TRADITION that is tainted, ruins the rest of the religion. If these things aren't actually part of worshiping God and accepting Christ what are they doing there making the faith IMPURE? The Scriptures state God is holy and nothing else will be accepted by him as far as pure faith.
Guess ALL Christianity is impure! The Scriptures are incomplete, and the grand majority of so-called Christians are also pagan by supporting Easter itself since Christ never rose on the traditional Easter of today. And Easter comes from the goddess Ester, goddess of fertility, thus the EGGS. There was also a great feast, easter dinner of today, etc. Same with Christmas and the yule log, mistletoe, feast, presents, etc. It might not be doctrine of a church, but it is the practice of most Christian faiths, including most Catholics. Christmas isn't held on Jesus birth either but rather celebrates pagan Saturnalia. The sheppards were in the field during Jesus' birth. (Said to actually be around Oct 1st or 2nd) The weren't in the fields in December.. it was too cold! There is more.. but I will leave it all up to the true truth seekers to find such truth. The facts are out there.. just research.. if you dare! Thus Christianity is "tainted" with paganism making it IMPURE and unacceptable by the Christian God.
The Catholic Church is noted for hiding and accepting wrong doing and changing the rules to suit the current need, doctrine or no doctrine. (Fish on Friday.. where are all the dead Catholics who ate meat on Fridays back then, now? Hell? Purgatory?) They were party to killing thousands of innocents in the Crusades, and the Pope blessed the Catholic Germans in WWII and blessed the Catholic USA soldiers too. Blessed them to kill each other as Christians killing their Christian brothers. But one can blind themselves to anything in any religion if they want to be blinded, rather than to deal with the truth.
You can argue for centuries on this. It all comes down to what YOU as an individual believe and how well informed you are. Most can not actually support their beliefs when challenged because they follow TRADITIONS. Maybe the TRUTH the Bible says to seek is the fact that there is NO pure faiths out there anymore.. but pure and good PRINCIPLES to live by?? The Beatles had it. Imagining that there is no religion!!! Many truths are found in songs and folklore!
Blessings and Blessed Be,
Linda | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 5:37:01 AM | Scripture says 'this is my body, this is my blood'. Could it be metaphorical, could it be that Jesus was showing them what was to happen to him and he was showing them they would soon join him in that destiny? That they would share that cup? Read the life of the 13 and see what happened to them. Yes, there were 13 apostles. Not to be a sacrilege (although I have married and divorced twice and accepted communion at a protestant table--I am sure the Church has already categorized me), when I play a board game, the gaming piece represents me and the game piece goes through the action of what happens to the "me" in that game of life. It is not what happens to me forever.
Transubstantiation was written into canon law by men. What you believe you believe by faith. I am not trying to dissuade you from what you believe, simply to get you to understand others may believe differently and it does not ensure either of us a bigger crown. Yes, I believe Jesus was sacrificed for us, but to sacrifice Him on a daily basis in the form of bread of wine (under transub) means I am making or taking part in a HUMAN sacrifice on a daily basis. Communion reminds me of what HE did for me. What I believe is that I sacrifice a small part of Him every time every time I don't live according to how He would want me to live. I can repair that by confessing to HIM what I have done, how I have wronged another. Better yet, not offend or hurt another to begin with. I can only make it right by telling that person when possible that I regret how I hurt them. I will also apologize and try to make right even if I THINK I have hurt them, asking forgiveness. I hold no grudges, I hate no one. That is not my job. People don't believe how easily I forgive. Simple, when you hate another, they don't care. The only person you hurt is yourself. When you go to confession, confess and are given prayers to contemplate, that is to tender your heart--but there is another step--correction with the offended party (if there is one) or correction with self--to not repeat the offense. Tell the priest I sinned--if it is something I want no other to know and I need to get it off my chest, I have gone to confession although the last time was years ago. But I derived no satisfaction from it. Confession had a two fold reason for being. Yes, we were told to confess our sins but it gave the Church opportunity to monitor and control people. If I know I have to tell the priest I did something would it stop me? Nothing can make me. Being written in canon does not make me get in the car and go to the priest and tell him what I have done. I think it was Mark Twain who said, two people can keep a secret only if one of them is dead. If I don't tell another human, then it won't be open for discussion. I know that priests are not to tell what goes on in the confessional, but priests are not do to lots of things a very minute few do. We are dealing with a human and I believe in something higher than man.
If you read old diaries, you will find where mothers and fathers confessed on behalf of their children whom they felt were sinning. Sure, ask someone to pray for them, but to confess for another or tattle on them? It was felt the priest ran and knew everything in the towns of early times. He did, he knew from the confessional. No wonder others have the concept of party hardy on Saturday, confess on Sunday and are right back at it on the weekend.
Each believes their own brand of religion. Jesus said I AM. To me that is He will reach me in the way He knows how. I have studied comparative theology for years and have found things in all of them that I have incorporated into my beliefs. Except for those darn snakes. Not for this girl. I understand new converts. For some that feeling never changes. For others, the ability to see and think beyond what we are blindly told to believe comes into play. Am I perfect? Far from it. Will I ever reach perfection? Never. To I believe what others consider fairy tales? Yes, by faith. Do I try to convert every one who does not believe as I do? NO! Will I discuss how I believe and why--only if asked, gently and only with reasonable people who will agree to disagree. I would love to sit down with a couple of the Wiccans on here to hear their stories and how they arrived at where they are.
As I said, I incorporate several beliefs in "my own brand of religion" (need my own church by the way). I believe as the Taoist, Buddhists, Indians and Wicca’s--love and revere the earth and first do no harm. I also believe in herblogy which I have learned much in the Appalachians. Where do you think modern medicine came from? It did not start in the lab.
The Christians should also do no harm. I can't tell you how many times that gossip was passed along in the form of a prayer request. Susie and Johnnie are having trouble, he's messing around and their daughter is pregnant--bless their hearts, will you pray for them? The only thing I needed to know is that Susie and Johnny need prayer. My prayer is simple--"God you know the needs of Susie and Johnny, I ask healing and peace be given to them and that they feel Your love wash over them in this time of need". I simply need to let Susie and Johnny know I love them. How was telling me what is going on in their lives helpful? It simply makes me one more person who did not need to know. I believe that the Wicca Code would disallow this type of noise.
I recycle compost and properly dispose of things. I know some of you are asking what does this have to do with religion? If I believe that God created the earth and in scripture he gave Adam and Eve dominion over the earth, then I am a caretaker. To not properly care for and steward what I have been given is wrong. Don't the Indians and Wiccans believe this?
I think dancing has a place in worship. David danced before the Lord and in his underwear. At least we would have our clothes on. Swaying with the music is a meditation, it does not have to be tawdry or have sexual conitations.
My quiet time and meditation time is from the Eastern beliefs. God cannot talk to me if He can't get through the noise. Warming a pew on Sunday, alone, won't get it. I burn candles and incense and sage. The belief that the candles light the way for and the smoke carries the prayers where I want them to go. Indians, Easterns, Wiccans and Christians all do this. Understand the concept of where this came from and give thanks that the traditions of another were incorporated into what you believe and appreciate the joy that tradition gives you. It was not based in Christianity. This earth was in existence before Christianity.
I have a friend who believes this earth system as we know it and from scripture is just what survived with Noah and the stories he knew to tell. There is not one reference to dinosaurs in the Bible but there is proof existence. Was there life before Adam and Eve and God got hacked off as in the time of Noah and trashed it all? Possible, scripture says He will do it again but by fire. Do I know for sure—hey, I am only 57.
Tithe--I disagree with this one. At the time it was set up, the whole system was different. There was no one taking a big whopping amount of taxes from a paycheck to care for the widow, orphans and the disabled. The church did it. Now the church still does this but not from the road, but from a stained glass, multi-million dollar palace which contains numerous works of art and a gym. How does a gym heal my soul and save me from damnation? Yes, there are programs for youth to draw them into the church but how is this helping the widows, orphans and disabled who often do not have enough to eat. Basketball is will not fill their stomach no matter how long you cook it. It is used as an enticement to draw them in much like the early temple prostitutes. Procurement is procurement no matter the form. I know that is extreme, but you get my point. I render aid on my own where I know it needs to go.
I think there are a couple of Wiccans on here who if they sensed I needed help, would probably be on my doorstep to administer aid. Would I accept it? YES!, because it would have come from the heart. I would not ask their beliefs. It would be a simple act of one human helping another, loving another.
We are all different, whether it is hair color (mine changes with the bottle and brand), height, body size and form, thought processes, IQ, or beliefs. We need to co-exist. You probably work with people whom you like but who in the privacy of their lives have a very different philosophy but you aren’t aware. If you knew, would it change how you feel about them? For a great deal, yes. Do I wish we all believed the same? Yes, but it is not possible. There is a bumper sticker that I have seen which says coexist and the letters are all made from the symbols of the major religions. In its simplicity, it makes a powerful statement. I tried to paste it here, but it wouldn't carry over. The website to view is: http://www.stampandshout.com/shop/bumper-stickers/coexist.php
Comments: Every letter has a symbol that represents a system of thought: The crescent and star for Islam; the pentagram for Wicca; the relativity formula for science; the star of David for Judaism; the Karma Wheel dotting the i for Buddhism; the Tao symbol for Taoism; the cross for Chrisitianity.
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 6:05:44 AM |
Then you can put that to practice by not demonizing my Church or my beliefs. Thank you.
I am not demonizing your church or your beliefs--simply trying to get you to see other points of view. As for "your" church. I was Catholic long before you were thought of and I believe that the Church should belong to God as in "His Church" and we are a part of the body known as the church. I was a full participating Catholic until I was told I could not date because I had no annulment--which the Church would not grant even though my former husband had a live-in, had stolen my ID, wiretapped my house, stolen money from accounts, inflitrated my email, hacked all of my on-line accounts and filed false charges against me and our son. Am I bitter? No. Am I sorry that the Church would accept my checks graciously but yet fail to adminsiter to me? Yes.
As far as the banking remark, would it have changed if the word privately-owned was inserted? I was on the council at my church, I was the council chair for several years. I understand quite well the working of the financial doings of the church, when and how money is administered. Before you jump, I have also been privy to board information at protestant church. As long as humans are involved in anything, nothing will be perfect.
I want no war with you. I simply want you to understand why others disagree with you as they will with me and that is fine. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 6:45:01 AM | Outofthedesert,
Great post! AMEN for the most part!... which btw, for those who do not know, only means "I agree", or affirming what is being said, and is not religious, but taken to be.
I was taught God said "I AM", and not Jesus. But then, I was taught they were not part of a trinity. Again, all Christians do not have the same beliefs among themselves, but most believe theirs is fact. One huge problem I have always had in my heart that shows me none of them are correct entirely... among others lol.. Research on religion... Christianity in particular, lead me straight away from it!
LOVE should be the key.. and in the vast majority they say it is. But you sure don't see it practiced much anymore. All religions point to that being important.. Its values and morals that really count.. not what god/gods/goddesses you worship. As always.. its about the person within....
Anyway,
Linda | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 6:57:03 AM | Then you can put that to practice by not demonizing my Church or my beliefs. Thank you.
HOW can anyone demonize a person's church or beliefs.. Only the individual can do that.. Other's are only expressing opinions.. If you think someone can do that to you, it's YOUR problem and YOU need to find out why you think someone can have that sort of affect!!
The truth is not what YOU believe necessarily.. Especially since so MANY think what they believe is also TRUE.
Just open your mind to take in other thinking.. might open up a whole new world and an epiphany!!
Linda | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 7:24:15 AM | op
So you are catholic and she is wiccan.
catholics burn candles
wiccans burn candles
some catholics burn incense
wiccans burn incense
catholics honor certain [holydays]
wiccans honor certain transitional days
by lighting candles an incense, which often coincide with the same days that catholics do,,,,,whats the problem
not like you indicate her being a satanist, she is just a wiccan and they generally accept as fact not everyone believes the same as them and not all wiccans believe exactly the same as others that claim to be wiccan. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 9:48:03 AM | Lindy--loved your profile, but could not send you email to tell you as I am definitely not what you are looking for and blocked.
I guess we all answered the OP's question. Catholicism VS Wiccan--read the post. Self explainatory. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 12:25:48 PM | My reply to Lindy's comments:
As to Christmas trees and mistletoe and yule logs ONLY being tradition and not part of the Catholic core or doctrine and another comment saying that nothing was wrong with the trees, easter eggs, etc.... The Scriptures state that one bad apple will spoil the whole barrel.
The idiom "one bad apple, etc." doesn't come from Scripture, actually. You can search for it yourself if you wish, but it's not there. Were you thinking of something else, perhaps?
So one TRADITION that is tainted, ruins the rest of the religion. If these things aren't actually part of worshiping God and accepting Christ what are they doing there making the faith IMPURE?
Traditions such as the Christmas tree and the Easter egg are generally treated as entirely cultural and not religious in nature at all; therefore, there is no connection. However, the tree can still be used as a reminder which directs the Christian's mind to God. The tree represents the tree of life in Eden; in Scripture, trees are a symbol of new life (Ezekiel 47:12 and Revelation 22:2, for example). The Christmas tree is sometimes stripped at Good Friday to make a cross.
Guess ALL Christianity is impure! The Scriptures are incomplete, and the grand majority of so-called Christians are also pagan by supporting Easter itself since Christ never rose on the traditional Easter of today.
The dating of Easter has nothing to do with paganism. The dating of Easter, as set by the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, is called the "Computus". It is always the first Sunday after the 14th day of the lunar month after the spring equinox (March 21). This was to provide a date which falls near the date that Christ died on the Passover of 33 AD, while being independent of the Jewish system.
And Easter comes from the goddess Ester, goddess of fertility, thus the EGGS.
Yes, that's repeated very often in forums like this. However, Ester was a Teutonic goddess (of the northern Germanic tribes), yet the Catholic faith before the Muslim conquests and the Crusades was centered in Rome, the Greek/Middle Eastern world, Africa and the Mediterranean. Saying that Christians observe easter because of the goddess Ester is a lot like saying that Jews celebrate Chanukah because the Chinese celebrate the Chrysanthemum Festival (that is to say, there is no connection whatsoever other than possibly a name similarity).
This explanation of yours is also ignorant of the fact that "Easter" is only called "Easter" in the English language; likely from the Anglo-Saxon word "Eostur" which means "the season of rising" or springtime. In Latin, the official language of the Catholic Church, the feast day is called "Pascha", which derives from the Hebrew word "Pesach" for "Passover". Similarly, in the languages that most Catholics of the world speak, it's a derivative of the same. For Italians, it's "Pasqua". For Spanish, it's "Pascua". For Dutch, it's "Paschen".
Regarding the eggs.... the Mediterraneans have been using the Easter eggs long before the tribesmen of northern Europe practiced Christianity. Here's an image of an Eastern Christian icon with St. Mary Magdalen with the egg. http://fisheaters.com/marymagdalenwithegg.jpg
According to tradition, Mary Magdalen went to Rome to meet with the Emperor Tiberius and tell him about the Resurrection of Christ. She held the egg out to him as a symbol of the resurrection, and the Emperor scoffed, saying a man could no more rise from the dead than the egg in her hands could turn red. As he said it, the egg indeed turned red as blood. This is why, in the icon I linked you to, the egg in the Magdalen's hand is red. Originally, Easter eggs were painted red, but eventually in western culture, other colors were used, and this account was made obscure. In eastern Christianity, though, this is better observed.
Christmas isn't held on Jesus birth either but rather celebrates pagan Saturnalia. The sheppards were in the field during Jesus' birth. (Said to actually be around Oct 1st or 2nd) The weren't in the fields in December.. it was too cold!
Actually, the only time shepherds spend the night with their sheep is when the sheep are giving birth. The ewes are attracted to the rams in July, after the longest day of the year. The gestation period is about 5 months, so the sheep give birth in mid-December. Thus, the shepherds having been out at the time of Christ's birth is a positive indicator of Christ's birth being in December. Furthermore, it is only fitting that the "lamb of God" is born at the time when all other lambs are born, especially in 1st-century Hebrew culture, which was born out of shepherds.
There are two other reasons why Christmas is dated December 25, although to understand, one must have a full grasp of the entire Christian calendar, not just the days that people like to go to church. The specific date of 25 was chosen because of the belief that a prophet is martyred on the day he was conceived in the world. March 25 is the date of the feast of the Annunciation; that is, the day the angel Gabriel announced to the Blessed Virgin Mary that she would conceive a Savior in her womb. This date was chosen because on the Friday of the Passover in 33 AD, the day Christ died, it was on March 25. Nine months later is December 25, the feast of the Nativity (Christmas).
Another indicator of Christ's birth on December 25 is the date of the feast day of St. John the Baptist, on June 25, after the summer solstice. We know when John the Baptist was born through Scripture because his father, Zecaharias, was a Temple priest who lived according to a strict ritual calendar. See Luke 1:23-24. He went home to his wife "as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished". We know when this is because the Temple priests offered perpetual sacrifice according to their shifts. Zecharias' shift was "the course of Abia" (Luke 1:5), which ends in October. Thus, Zecharias went home to his wife in mid-October and John was conceived at some time between October 15 and the end of the month. This means he would have been born in mid-to-late June.
Not surprisingly, the feast day of John the Baptist is on June 25. And, we know from Scripture that Jesus was born six months after John: December 25. The significance of each being close to the summer or winter solstice derives from what John said about Christ: "He must incease, and I must decrease". After John's day, the days decrease in length. After Christ's, the days lengthen.
There is more.. but I will leave it all up to the true truth seekers to find such truth. The facts are out there.. just research.. if you dare!
As you can see, I've done plenty of my own research. I've already done the daring.
The Catholic Church is noted for hiding and accepting wrong doing and changing the rules to suit the current need, doctrine or no doctrine. (Fish on Friday.. where are all the dead Catholics who ate meat on Fridays back then, now? Hell? Purgatory?)
Wherever God has judged them to go, obviously. The phrase "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" comes from St. Ambrose, bishop of Milan in the late 4th century. His principle was this: to observe the customs of the church where you are. Thus, when he was in Rome, he would fast on Wednesdays and Fridays, as was the custom of his church there. When in Milan, he would not, and instead observe their proper customs.
They were party to killing thousands of innocents in the Crusades
And being killed in the Muslim conquests in the centuries before, and up until the 1453 conquest of Constantinople.
and the Pope blessed the Catholic Germans in WWII and blessed the Catholic USA soldiers too. Blessed them to kill each other as Christians killing their Christian brothers.
You obviously have not actually looked into it. Try reading Pope Pius XI's encyclical "Mit Brennender Sorge", On the Church and the German Reich, co-authored by the man who would become Pius XII. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html
It contains a sweeping condemnation of the war and the Reich. An excerpt:
"The experiences of these last years have fixed responsibilities and laid bare intrigues, which from the outset only aimed at a war of extermination. In the furrows, where We tried to sow the seed of a sincere peace, other men - the "enemy" of Holy Scripture - oversowed the****e of distrust, unrest, hatred, defamation, of a determined hostility overt or veiled, fed from many sources and wielding many tools, against Christ and His Church. They, and they alone with their accomplices, silent or vociferous, are today responsible, should the storm of religious war, instead of the rainbow of peace, blacken the German skies."
And don't forget Pope Benedict XV's plan for peace for WWI, which he issued in 1917. Every nation except for Austria ignored it completely, and President Wilson was actually indignant that the Pope would dare to interfere with the war. Nevertheless, he took the Pope's plan and converted it into his Fourteen Points when the war ended. http://net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/1917/popeace.html
But one can blind themselves to anything in any religion if they want to be blinded, rather than to deal with the truth.
One can also be blinded into anti-clerical hatred and ranting, refusing to see the good that priests, bishops, and popes have done throughout the centuries. It goes both ways.
Most can not actually support their beliefs when challenged because they follow TRADITIONS.
I don't fit into the "most" category.
Maybe the TRUTH the Bible says to seek is the fact that there is NO pure faiths out there anymore..
And maybe the Bible says the opposite. Christ said to Peter, " thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18) | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 3:36:40 PM | after sifting through the last page, i just can't help myself...
I don't fit into the "most" category.
jacobus, when it comes to long-winded, bellicose and annoying posts that can be boiled down to an "i am right and you are not" attitude... you really are the most. while your dedication to the church and tenacity in research to support your statements, may be admirable, for every one of your fact-supported statements i'm sure that somewhere out there in cyberland, there are fact-supported rebuttals. to me it seems that while others are interested in discussing this, you are only interested in being right.
this is the attitude that drove me(and most likely many others) from the catholic church, and eventually most religions period. even as a child i could never reconcile the attitude of the church with the words of the bible, preaching love and acceptance, while practicing the opposite. this led me to question other aspects of catholicism(and again, other aspects of christianity) and not being able to get suitable answers, it was only a matter of time before i realized that the church just wasn't for me.
when it comes to practicing love and acceptance, i've never met a wiccan who would condemn someone outright for being a non-wiccan. i can't say the same about the catholic church. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/13/2008 4:57:29 PM | Jacobus101
You contradict yourself. And so much of what you say is only beliefs perceived. The Bible is interpreted many, many, ways. (with many books and writing deleted!) Who IS to say one person is correct and another wrong? I can argue with you till the end of time, and still get no where. You twist and turn so much you could be a magician.
There are many ways to explain what one believes. I have heard what you say, and have heard others explain things several other ways. All sound logical until you examine them again in another light and in total detail. The Bible says to "make sure of all things."
I didn't say I personally believed any of my comments btw... I sort of play "devil's advocate" many times. I only wanted to see what you and others would do with them. It is always good to make people think.
You talk a good game. Yet you say they stripped the Christmas Tree at Easter time into a cross? Yet you keep inferring to it as a Christmas Tree and for an Easter Tradition.
I am not ignorant to the name EASTER being ENGLISH.. duh.. I think I pointed that out by saying it was Ester, the goddess of fertility. And your explanation goes with mine in that it was the season of rising.. rebirth.. the earth becoming fertile etc.
You tell stories.. Mary and the egg... where is there proof of that?
Also.. wrong analogy... sorry.. but still Biblical.. and where they "one apple spoils the bunch" came from possibly. It does state.. maybe in Galations? that " A little leaven leavens the whole lump." Same principle! Add one falsehood and it taints everything!! It is no longer PURE!
As far as the Pope and WWII.. rubbish.. he shouldn't ever interfere, let along bless Catholics on each side to kill one another! Scripture state to give "God's things to God and Caesars things to Caesar"! You do not mix the two.... Yet religion has it's nose in politics EVERYWHERE and for centuries! And the Catholic Church is noted for this very thing, big time! God's kingdom is "not of this earth"! So, maybe YOU are the one who isn't looking at all carefully!
And Hitler wasn't just against any one church.. but against many faiths.. the Jews, and Jehovah's Witnesses were some he tried to wipe out! Hitler had people blindly following him and a good many of them believed in him and what he stood for... and looked what happened? Things aren't always as they seem. Be careful what you convince yourself to believe.
The Scriptures also say the path would be narrow and few on it..yet the Catholic Church is huge!!
Anyway, I am done with this bantering back and forth. I just don't have the time to rip apart and reply to everything you said. I have a life off here, and I am sure all are getting bored with this anyway. I believe what I do, you believe what you do, and have a happy life. I will however keep trying to see truth and not the truth of false religion. Keep seeking.. and you will find.
Peace and Blessings.
Linda | |
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