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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/14/2008 7:22:17 PM | Reply to redarcangel:
To generalize..by grouping all Pagan faiths into one..as you have done throughout this thread..only allows room for you to be educated..and enlightened into the world of others belief systems.
I've only spoken of pagans in relation to whether or not Christian customs were taken from pagan ones. Yes, I'm aware of there being many different types of pagans. It doesn't make my use of "pagan" collectively any more inaccurate than another poster's use of the word "Christian", even though there are many types of Christians.
If your faith is as strong..and you are as knowledgable of your faith..as you lay claim..learning of others faiths can only enrich your own.
No argument there. I have to learn a lot about religions given my family and cultural situation. As an Indonesian, most of my extended family on my mom's side is either Muslim or Hindu, my great-grandparents were probably animist, and my mother is Protestant (Seventh-day Adventist). My dad's side is almost entirely nominally Episcopalian or agnostic. I'm the only Catholic in all directions of the family since the Protestant Reformation.
Never..have I heard of an instance where a Wiccan..out of his/her faith..has ever committed a crime. Never! Not one Wiccan has ever burned a Christian..or human being of any faith..including their own..for the sake of their religious belief.
I don't know. It might depend on how old you believe Wicca to be. If you believe Wicca to have started in 1954 by Gerald Gardner, then you're right, it's probably rarely or never happened. If the Christian population was as small as the Wiccan one, and you counted from 1954 onward, you'd also be hard-pressed to find any examples of Christians committing faith-based crimes.
On the other hand, if you consider Wicca to be the revival of pre-Christian religions in Celtic or Germanic societies, then you will certainly find examples of Christians being burned or otherwise killed. So, it depends.
Likewise:
No Wiccan would dare ever cross the Rede..its self-inflicting consequences would be horrendous..three times over. The Threefold Law.
This is a bit like saying that no Christian would ever dare commit a mortal sin (or for simplicity's sake, break one of the Ten Commandments) because the consequences of hell, or even the thought of displeasing God, would be too much. Makes sense, but people do it anyway. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/14/2008 8:33:07 PM |
You're still single in the eyes of God. It can't be a sin to date
to be brief(hint, hint)...
it wasn't god who shunned her, made her feel unwelcome at mass and generally made life miserable for her when she tried to partake of a life that includes catholicism. the priests and the rest of the holier than thou crowd on the other hand... | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/14/2008 9:12:30 PM | Reply to biketrvlr:
it wasn't god who shunned her, made her feel unwelcome at mass and generally made life miserable for her when she tried to partake of a life that includes catholicism. the priests and the rest of the holier than thou crowd on the other hand...
It's no one's fault, except for the supposed husband. As long as the priests are following canon law, they're just doing their job. There are certain requirements to make a full declaration of nullity. If the priests weren't doing their job, then that sucks, but that doesn't mean all priests are bad, nor does it affect whether or not Catholicism is a correct faith. When I was 16 and wanted to convert to Catholicism, I walked a few miles from my house to the nearest Catholic church. The priest didn't want to baptize me because his parish had a form to fill out which required a parental signature. I could never get one, but that didn't keep me from walking to that parish church every Sunday to attend Mass without receiving Communion, since I was still an unbaptized heathen even though I believed every teaching of the Church and would give me life for them. When I turned 18, I got a job, bought a car with the money, and used it to drive to a much more traditional church on the other side of town. I walked in, talked to the deacon for 5 minutes, and he asked, "which weekend did you want to be baptized?" I replied, "this Saturday". I was baptized in a quiet corner of the church with just myself, the priest, the deacon, and my godfather, on the morning of Christmas Eve 2005.
Also, everyone at Mass, regardless of their belief or number of sins, is welcome to attend, period. The Catholic Church has an open door policy. One must have a "clean slate" and a proper spiritual disposition to receive Communion, though. Receiving Communion isn't required to participate and spiritually assist at the Mass. I don't receive Communion at every Mass myself, because I might have some sin on my soul (even if I'm one of the altar servers that day), or maybe I just was zoning out in the middle of Mass and didn't come prepared to receive Christ in the Eucharist. No big deal. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/14/2008 11:32:23 PM | jacobus101 said:
I've only spoken of pagans in relation to whether or not Christian customs were taken from pagan ones. Yes, I'm aware of there being many different types of pagans. It doesn't make my use of "pagan" collectively any more inaccurate than another poster's use of the word "Christian", even though there are many types of Christians.
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Jacobus.....let me get you in touch with reality! ALL RELIGIONS BEGAN IN PAGANISM! Before there were the known religions that we know.....there were Pagans. Paganism is the first, original religion on the planet. ALL RELIGIONS HAVE THEIR ROOTS IN PAGANISM! | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 2:07:04 AM |
" Paganism is the first, original religion on the planet. ALL RELIGIONS HAVE THEIR ROOTS IN PAGANISM "
Oh fer cryin' out loud.... now you're starting to sound like one o' them danged born-agains, yourself. (and yelling like them, as well)
I think the anthropologists studying Asia, India, and Africa might just have a bit of a quibble with ya there, pal.....
Leave the proselytizing to the fanatics, and go find a campfire to dance around, ok? with that attitude, YOU DON'T SOUND ANY DIFFERENT THAN THEM! Capiche?? | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 2:24:22 AM | Acapella: Let me state again......ALL religions began in Paganism. That, my friend, is a historical fact! Paganism is the first and oldest religion on the planet. There were no religions before Paganism. There was worshiping, but not as an organized religion. Pagans came first, then other religions branched off them. Even the Asian religions began in Paganism. ALL religions have their roots in Paganism.
BTW: It's spelled "capisce". There's no "h" in it. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 2:46:41 AM |
" There were no religions before Paganism. There was worshiping, but not as an organized religion. "
...and you just jumped in your little time machine and asked them all about it, right? Uh huh... nothing controversial about that, nossir.
" That, my friend, is a historical fact! "
Prove it.
(Hopefully without pages of unverifiable quotations from your holy books, or links to obviously biased websites, etc.)
Again... when you make statements like that, you sound NO different than the Xtians, Muslims, Jews, et al. No different. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 3:00:49 AM | By any chance, May I ask how *all religions started from paganism? Such as Jewish faith? Not what it sounds like but how it actually started. I hear this from others and I only hear the statement and a few similar stories, but no Facts and Hard Factual Evidence that It has Pagan Roots. Would you please help me with this?
also. for the both of you. It's Capito. the "ca-peesh!" slang is Americanized. Like Goumba. But that's a different story all together, right? heh | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 3:05:51 AM | Well thank you kindly for recognizing my quality and my knowledge. I did a study of religions some years back and learned the Paganism was the first religion from some people who are much more knowledgeable than I am. These were prople that had spent a good percentage of their lives in and around religion. Am I to presume that they don't know what they are talking about and teaching?
As for proving it. I am not required to do that. I am just stating a fact. If you don't like what I state.....don't read it! You are under no obligation to read what I post. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 3:27:58 AM | ?????????
I suppose that my curiosity in faith has brought me to those that say that all religions started in paganism or have pagan roots. I'd like to find out (factually mind you) how this came to be.
I can appreciate your respect for those that have devoted the majority of thier lives to learning about religion, and your high self respect to boot. However you misjudged me by accusing me of requiring you to prove your extremely empassioned statement. You are not required in any way by my last post, you were requested. You could have simply recommended a book that I may look up or a site address on here if you couldn't quote me something exactly enough to suit your truths that all religions started in paganism. Better yet, if I was to not receive any results that support your personal truth, You could have told me it was none of my business? Then again, that would defeat the purpose of being so empassioned about your knowledge of the roots of all faith. Thus defeating your statement. Wouldn't it?
I speak to you in calm, simple respect and sincere honesty. If you wish not to answer my question feel free to disregard this answer. I'm sure that someone has factual evidence as to how paganism is the root of all religions. You'll forgive me if I choose not to hold my breath though. Gratzie.  | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 4:02:33 AM |
You're still single in the eyes of God. It can't be a sin to date to be brief(hint, hint)... it wasn't god who shunned her, made her feel unwelcome at mass and generally made life miserable for her when she tried to partake of a life that includes catholicism. the priests and the rest of the holier than thou crowd on the other hand...
I am self-assured that I am very single and have the civil paperwork to prove it. I know it was an invalid marriage, but I don't have anyway to "make" them give me an annulment. God and I know it isn't a sin for me to date under canon law, but communion is withheld just the same and the Church does not agree. I am a good poker player and I know when to fold. Five local priests, the chancellor and two petitions before the tribunal all indicate no annulment will be forth coming unless I want to take a trip to Rome. If I ever get to Rome, it will be for a honeymoon. My former husband and I are quite civil to each other because there are children involved, even if they are adults. I want to keep it that way. I have had to deal with his trips to the ACLU because he felt he did not get what he deserved in the divorce. He wanted my retirement, my 401k, provided health insurance the rest of his life, payment for non-covered medicals and to pay for his truck which was at my credit union. He had 30 jobs in 30 years and the judge ruled if he had stayed anywhere, he would have had his own benefits. I know I was an idiot to stay, but he threatened to take the children and disappear and I know him well enough to know that he would have.
I applaud your studies, perhaps you can help to make changes in the Church to help in instances such as this. In the mean time, I attend a protestant church were I am welcomed with open and loving arms. I accept communion (with my own thoughts of what happens at the offering of bread and wine-not necessarily what the minister may think) and I am loved and my every need is met by my community, study and social groups. The pastors always hug me and tell me how wonderful it is to see me.
It is always sad when a child is turned out or turned away. The parent always thinks they are doing the right thing. But not always.
I wish you well. I think I have been in this forum long enough. For me it is time to put it to bed.....unless there is something I really disagree with..................... | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 4:11:35 AM |
" These were prople that had spent a good percentage of their lives in and around religion. Am I to presume that they don't know what they are talking about and teaching?
As for proving it. I am not required to do that. I am just stating a fact. If you don't like what I state.....don't read it! You are under no obligation to read what I post. "
" That, my friend, is a historical fact! "
Sorry Mr. Erudite, but it just doesn't wash.
Look at the above clips from your last 2 posts. Now, imagine those quotes coming from the Xtians that you (and I) usually get so annoyed with. It sounds absolutely the same. Smug dismissal, intolerance, and a myopic refusal to reason. Just like "baldy" on the "would you marry an athiest" thread, who kept throwing out his unproven "facts" about the history of the US.
You just don't get it-- It doesn't really matter whether you're "right" or not! With an approach like that, you will never convince anyone of anything other than that you are an egotistical "know-it-all", who only wants to (ahem) preach.
Go ahead and get in your "last word", I'm gone for tonight... but think about it, man. You must want people to "read what you post", or why bother?
P.S. "prople"??? | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 4:21:37 AM | Jacobus..
I've tried to extend knowlege of Wicca to you. You don't seem capable of learning what a Wiccan is..when it started..or their belief system. I will try one last time to teach you about the divising factors of the sects/branches/variations of Paganism.
To say that ALL Pagans..being that they were the first religious order..were guilty of such horrendous crimes..your own monotheists..the pre-Christians..were guilty of these crimes. The very reason for the splitting of the sects of Pagans in pre-monotheism..was the difference in believing and participating in the letting of blood..for the sake of their beliefs. Thier were those that refused to spill blood for the sake of religion..thus..the birth of Wicca. The wise ones of the healing faith.
You can not compare the strength of convictions..between the Christian 10 Commandments..and the Wiccan Rede. There is none. Wicca..a faith so strong as to secretly survive being driven underground for centuries by the monotheists..through blatant Laws of death or penance with conversion..remained true to their beliefs and the Rede to this day. "An ye harm none..do what ye will." The Christians however..pledge to God and their country..as soldiers..fighting wars..killing in the name of thier God..to this day..breaking one of their own 10 Commandments.."Thou shalt not kill." Anyone in the services claiming to be Wiccan.. is no Wiccan..maybe a Pagan..but not a Wiccan.
Fear of death..and death itself..drove Wicca to its near dismantlement and it's near extinction..but..it not only has continued on..it has gotten much stronger..and with many..many more practitioners..looking for a peaceful co-existance they seem unable to find in monotheism. More and more of the Christian Catholic/catholic..and protestant churches of all denominations in my area..are merging and subsequently closing their doors for good. Lack of attendance seems to be the reason publicly given.
Therefor..I stand behind what I say when I state..Wiccans have NEVER murdered in the name of their religion. Not BEFORE or after 1954. NOT the Wiccans. You would have to do alot more research in order to understand a religious order that was driven underground for centuries..yet still called upon to heal. To heal..anyone (including those that drove them under) as they have always been known as the White..or Green Witches..or simply The Healers..by the very monotheists that cast them out. Healers..not takers of life. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 4:39:03 AM | Congratulations! You have arrived at the ultimate goal of catholicism, which for centuries, has screwed up the lives of it's supplicants. Your church seems to have secured the obedience of your family, who (as good catholics) would support your local priest over you, (their flesh and blood).
Wicca is basically a belief in natural origins, and appreciation of life, and our earth.
If your 'lady' believes in Wicca, then she is very likely to give your poor thinking a reasonable chance, which is a whole lot more leeway than your family gives you.
Would you buy a used car from someone who had a record of screwups, or from someone who simply told you it was 'blue' and had four wheels?
Try thinking for yourself, for a change! | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 4:44:21 AM | Acapella..
Have you never heard of Ra..the ancient Egyptian Sun God? That was the beginning of religion..and belief in higher powers. There were many dieties that the ancient Egyptians worshipped..thus..paganism was born..and it only branched out throughout the world from there. Ever hear of Greek and Roman gods/goddesses/demi-gods/demi-goddesses..and the Norse gods/goddesses and so on..the Celt/Irish gods/goddesses..etc.? We won't get into the "demon" aspects. That usually scares the shite out of people. Pagans are the pre-Christians..pre-monotheists..proven facts for many..many centuries. Proven facts even by the very archeologists you mention.
Hope this helps to use as a guide for theological references. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 5:13:27 AM | Damcute..
Hope this answers some more of your questions. For where religion got it's start..look up a little further in this thread. I tried to the best of my ability..to answer all questions..honestly and openly. May peace and love be with you..blessed be.
The word AMEN used by monotheists to show the end of prayer..means..so be it..and was first used by the Pagans to show the end of their "will"..aka..spell.
"The use of temples..and these dedicated to particular saints..and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense..lamps..and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holy days and seasons..use of calendars..processions..blessings on the fields..sacerdotal vestments..the tonsure..the ring in marriage..turning to the East..images at a later date..perhaps the ecclesiastical chant..and the Kyrie Eleison..are all of pagan origin..and sanctified by their adoption into the Church." by John Newman
*It is interesting to note that John Newman was a Catholic prelate..this was not yet more Catholic-bashing by a Protestant. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 6:09:08 AM | Redarc-- yes... I've taken several comprehensive religion courses in my day, and am well aware of the wide-spread influence of Paganism throughout Europe, northern Africa, and even parts of Asia. That's not the point.
Look, I really don't want to get into it with you people-- you really seem like good folks (y'know-- "some of my best friends are Pagans", and if I had a sister, I'd surely let her marry one, 'k?)
The point I'm trying to make is more along the lines of friendly advice. When you folks say such things as this:
" Have you never heard of Ra..the ancient Egyptian Sun God? That was the beginning of religion..and belief in higher powers. "
...it all but ruins your credibility, and makes you sound VERY similar to the bible-thumpers who expect you to swallow everything they spew because they're so "sure" of their "historical sources".
I'm sorry, but "that was the beginning of religion" is a, well... not even controversial, statement anymore, so much as just plain wrong. Paleontologists and anthropologists have long-since proven that practices fulfilling all requirements of the definitions of "religion" were in existence waaay before the advent of recorded history… long before the Egyptian culture evolved. There is convincing evidence that even the Neanderthals had a system of spiritual belief, and ritual.
Again, as I tried to say to Mr. Erudite up there… when you make such sweeping, dismissive, controversial, and frankly easily-disprovable statements, it only brings you down to the b-thumping level.
Let THEM make the "historical proclamations", and take the risks. You guys were doing fine until the "that is historical fact!" crap started coming from your camp….
P.S. nice profile... there's an "Exeter" in PA?? IBD.... | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 7:16:43 AM | Acapella..
Ahhh..the stone age religion. I heard a teaspoon about this..theory..as I was to understand it..not..factual. Science is your game. Okay..let's hear all about it. I'd like to learn about the facts and the proof of these organized religions with rituals. Who was their God/s? What types of rituals? Did they sing as well as dance? Chant..perhaps. Make me a believer that these were actual spiritual drawings of an organized religion..and not a ritual based from fear or hunger by the one individual that drew some (deciphered) pics on a cave wall. I hope you'll do more than just spew unsubstantiated..scientific discoveries but..give us..actual proof. After all..how long was Pluto considered a planet..by fact? Yet..now science has..ummm..changed it's mind? Become the teacher.
OOTD..taught me the difference between Catholic/catholic..Church/church..being a non-Catholic/catholic my entire life..I enjoyed learning something new. Jacobus taught me a great great deal as well..especially about marriages of his religious belief. I thank them both very much for this..learning something new everyday. I love to learn.
Btw..I don't consider answering questions to be the best of recorded factual knowledge as being..thumping..but the hostility in your post..makes me glad I'm in Pa..and your in Arizona. Blessed be. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 11:08:16 AM | To all:
Merry meet!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religions
I think that will show you the beginnings of religion. It doesn't say "Paganism" per se, but it does tell of the beginnings.
I would also like to say that I have not challanged anyone to prove their point as I have been challanged.
I am in full agreement with outofthedesert. I think it's time to put a lid on this one.
Peace and blessed be to all. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 8:25:11 PM | Reply to outofthedesert:
I am self-assured that I am very single and have the civil paperwork to prove it. I know it was an invalid marriage, but I don't have anyway to "make" them give me an annulment. God and I know it isn't a sin for me to date under canon law, but communion is withheld just the same and the Church does not agree. I am a good poker player and I know when to fold. Five local priests, the chancellor and two petitions before the tribunal all indicate no annulment will be forth coming unless I want to take a trip to Rome. If I ever get to Rome, it will be for a honeymoon.
I believe persistence is a virtue. During the controversy in the 4th century about Arianism (the belief that Jesus was not God) and Trinitarianism, St. Athanasius, the bishop and Patriarch of Alexandria, was the only bishop in the entire eastern half of the Church to still preach the Trinity, and this was even after the Council of Nicaea and the Nicene Creed. Athanasius was exiled from his own diocese into the Egyptian desert and excommunicated five times, including one signed under duress by the Pope himself, but every time he kept coming back. It created a Latin saying, "Athanasius contra mundum"; that is, "Athanasius against the world". Through his sole perseverance, Arianism was reduced to a forgotten error in the dustbin of history, and to this day Athanasius is known as a saint, especially in the East.
By the way, if you do go to Rome, it's beautiful, although crowded and with graffiti everywhere. One of the pics in my profile is at the Trevi Fountain in the Eternal City.
Reply to redarcangel:
I've tried to extend knowlege of Wicca to you. You don't seem capable of learning what a Wiccan is..when it started..or their belief system.
No need to make judgments about my intellectual capabilities are lack thereof. I'm open to learning.
You can not compare the strength of convictions..between the Christian 10 Commandments..and the Wiccan Rede. There is none. Wicca..a faith so strong as to secretly survive being driven underground for centuries by the monotheists..through blatant Laws of death or penance with conversion..remained true to their beliefs and the Rede to this day. "An ye harm none..do what ye will." The Christians however..pledge to God and their country..as soldiers..fighting wars..killing in the name of thier God..to this day..breaking one of their own 10 Commandments.."Thou shalt not kill." Anyone in the services claiming to be Wiccan.. is no Wiccan..maybe a Pagan..but not a Wiccan.
Very well. When I was in basic training for the Army, I had two comrades and friends in the same platoon who were (or claimed to be) Wiccans. There was even a (supposed) Wiccan chaplain on-base to celebrate the Wiccan liturgies. I was one of the few soldiers in the unit who didn't poke fun at them at all (not to say they were abused or not liked, but the Wiccan aspect was made fun of and stereotyped, just like folks nowadays seem to enjoy sterotyping all Catholic priests as money-grubbing child molesters). If you say they aren't really Wiccans, though, I'll take your word for it.
At the same token, though, does this mean that... if we judge Wiccan history only by the actions of those Wiccans who rarely or never sin against their beliefs... does that mean we can say the same about Christianity? That the history of Christianity should be judged not by a textbook, but by Butler's "Lives of the Saints" or the Martyrology? St. Justin Martyr, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Anthony of Padua, St. Ignatius Loyola, St. Teresa of Avila, etc. But even I know this wouldn't be wholly accurate, even though I do love to talk about the saints. They're important and they set the example for all other Christians (at least Catholics and Orthodox; Protestants tend to not like them much and go for "reformer" types instead), but the Church as a whole is more like a hospital for sinners than a parlor hall for saints.
That's an honest question, though. If I'm wrong, let me know.
At the same token.... you should be open to learning more about Christianity. You said:
You can not compare the strength of convictions..between the Christian 10 Commandments..and the Wiccan Rede.
A truly devout Christian (at least a Catholic or Orthodox, as I can't speak for other traditions here) would sooner wish to die than commit a mortal sin. St. Louis IX, King of France, wrote a letter to his son saying this:
"My dearest son, my first instruction is that you should love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your strength. Without this there is no salvation. Keep yourself, my son, from everything that you know displeases God, that is to say, from every mortal sin. You should permit yourself to be tormented by every kind of martyrdom before you would allow yourself to commit a mortal sin."
Likewise, his mother, Queen Blanche, often said to him while he was growing up:
"I love you my dear son, as much as a mother can love her child; but I would rather see you dead at my feet than that you should commit a mortal sin."
Continuing:
a faith so strong as to secretly survive being driven underground for centuries by the monotheists..through blatant Laws of death or penance with conversion..remained true to their beliefs and the Rede to this day.
Cannot the same be said about the Catholic faith in England and Ireland after the Protestant Reformation? For centuries after the establishment of the Church of England, Catholicism was illegal. St. Thomas More, the Lord Chancellor and second-in-command after Henry VIII, preferred to die rather than sign the oath to the Act of Succession. Priests caught in the country were put to death, yet many men such as St. Edmund Campion and St. Henry Morse fled to France to be ordained as priests and came back to minister to their people in England until they were hanged, drawn and quartered. St. Margaret Clitherow was sentenced to be crushed to death by stones for using her house as a hiding place for priests to say Mass and hear confessions from between the walls. King James II was actually kicked off the throne and exiled to France during the "Glorious Revolution" for being a Catholic. And yet, the Catholic faith persisted until Catholic Emancipation in the 1840's. The Anglican minister John Newman, whom you quoted, was one of the first men in the post-Emancipation Britain to convert, and he eventually became a cardinal. Last month, a news article reported that in the UK today, more Catholics attend Sunday liturgies than Anglicans, even though Anglicanism is the established faith of the UK, and also that the former prime minister Tony Blair converted to Catholicism. And of course, nothing needs to be said about Ireland, which remained mostly Catholic all throughout British rule. Many pubs throughout Ireland have secret doors which lead to rooms for priests to say Mass, and many Catholic altars made out of crude, Stonehenge-like stones are scattered throughout the fields of the Emerald Isle as a reminder of those days.
Anyway, this wasn't meant to be a "mine is bigger than yours" debate; all I'm saying is that perhaps you're overlooking the capacity for Catholics (and other Christians, of course) to be devout even into death for their beliefs.
Here is another opportunity for learning:
The Christians however..pledge to God and their country..as soldiers..fighting wars..killing in the name of thier God..to this day..breaking one of their own 10 Commandments.."Thou shalt not kill."
The Fifth Commandment ("thou shalt not kill", Exodus 20:13) can be a point of confusion for those not raised or educated in the full context of the Scripture and the writings of the Early Church Fathers.
There are, of course, many interpretations of this and other things from different Christians, so don't expect them all to agree with me. Here is mine:
The Hebrew word used for "kill" in Exodus 20:13 is "ratsach", which means "to murder", or literally "to dash in pieces". This is very different than the generic Hebrew word for killing, which is "harog". In today's English, a much more accurate way of translating the verse i "you shall not murder". And this is indeed what a lot of modern Bibles do.
Before you accuse me of mental gymnastics just because I'm a soldier, look at the very next chapter of Exodus, the 21st (and remember that the author of the text didn't actually divide it into chapters and verses, those are just for convenience). The whole of the law of Moses continues, by saying:
(Exodus 21:14) If a man kill his neighbour on set purpose, and by lying in wait for him: thou shalt take him away from My altar that he may die.
As you can see (and probably already knew), the very same set of laws proscribes the death penalty for those who murder (some specific definitions of what constitutes murder, according to the law of Moses, may be found in Numbers 35).
There is, thus, a significant difference between killing and murdering. God is the author of all life, and can give or take away as He wills. It is not a sin to kill in the defense of others (for example, carrying a gun at home in case of burglars or psychos), or to kill in the defense of a society (the death penalty and just wars). In fact, it can very well be a sin to allow others to kill without taking any action. That's the sin of omission.
Finally:
killing in the name of thier God..to this day..
This is a common misconception, I think. Christians do not kill "in the name of God", and they never have. However, they do don armor and weaponry in defense of their faith and people, and invoke the name of God for their protection.
For example, there seems to be a gross misconception that in the Crusades, Christians killed Muslims "in the name of God" and obtained salvation by some sort of kill count, and Ridley Scott's movie "Kingdom of Heaven" only spread it even further. I doubt many of these folks have actually read Pope Urban II's speech at the Council of Clermont, which called the First Crusade into action. The First Crusade was called at Clermont as a response to the Byzantine Emperor Alexius I's plea for help from the west. The Byzantine Empire was being overrun by the Seljuk Turks, and thus the Emperor asked for military assistance from Christians of the West. As well, Jerusalem had been captured by the Turks and Christian pilgrims had been killed and prevented from entering the city. Urban II told the crusaders that they would obtain salvation if they died in the course of their duties, i.e. they would die as martyrs. He appealed to the novum mandatum (the new commandment) that Christ gave to His disciples: "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends." As a soldier (although I am now just reserve), this is what I believe about my profession: that I stand in harm's way so that others don't have to. It's the spirit of personal sacrifice that lies at the heart of Christ's message.
If you disagree with what I said above, that's fine. My point wasn't to argue for or against the morality of fighting wars or killing in self-defense or anything like that. My point was to demonstrate that (Catholic) Christianity does not and has never taught a pacifist outlook on the Fifth Commandment; and Christians do not break their own teachings because they (justly) kill. The Israelites who originally received the commandments never understood it that way, either: they took the tablets of the law inside the Ark of the Covenant and used it to cross the Jordan into the Promised Land and conquer it by military force.
If you made it this far, thanks for reading. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 8:49:43 PM | Willdo01 said:
Congratulations! You have arrived at the ultimate goal of catholicism, which for centuries, has screwed up the lives of it's supplicants. Your church seems to have secured the obedience of your family, who (as good catholics) would support your local priest over you, (their flesh and blood).
Statements like this are about as ridiculous and uncalled for as the ones that Wiccans and/or pagans I imagine have to tolerate on a regular basis. It also doesn't demonstrate any self-thinking that the poster refers to. If he did think for himself, I doubt he would say something as ignorant about an entire religion as that.
Oh, I almost forgot:
"The use of temples..and these dedicated to particular saints..and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense..lamps..and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holy days and seasons..use of calendars..processions..blessings on the fields..sacerdotal vestments..the tonsure..the ring in marriage..turning to the East..images at a later date..perhaps the ecclesiastical chant..and the Kyrie Eleison..are all of pagan origin..and sanctified by their adoption into the Church." by John Newman
*It is interesting to note that John Newman was a Catholic prelate..this was not yet more Catholic-bashing by a Protestant
Cardinal Newman is DA MAN! No, really, his books, such as "The Idea of a Univeristy" and "Apologia Pro Vita Sua" are masterpieces. I hope he's canonized a saint someday.
The quote you provided appears very often on Protestant websites as one of those "you see? Even one of your own cardinals admits that you're pagan!" things.
His Eminence was right, many elements of Catholic ritual are taken from pagan culture and "baptized" for Christian purposes. Ain't nothing wrong with that. However, this is not the same as saying that Catholic DOCTRINE is derived from pagan doctrine. That is to say, that Catholics don't believe Jesus rose from the dead because Mithras rose from the dead, but because they believe the Resurrection was a historical event that happened regardless of any similarity of lack thereof in other faiths. Likewise, Catholics don't believe that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God and the Queen of Heaven because their ancestors believed in Isis or Ishtar, but because they believe that's who she is, regardless.
At the same token, just because there are some rituals and customs adopted from paganism does not mean that Catholics have never had an original idea. That's why I brought up the fact that the Easter egg developed independently of pagan Norsemen, and that the date of Christmas is actually believed to be the birthdate of Christ, regardless of Saturnalia.
Furthermore, Cardinal Newman's quote perhaps places too much credit on pagan influence and not on customs directly commanded by God on the Hebrews in the Old Testament. The law of Moses commanded a tabernacle (later the Temple of Solomon), vestments for the priests, a menorah and incense, a calendar with feast days, holy water, etc. Although one could also argue that God commanded these because the Hebrews were already familiar with them from their use by their Egyptian masters and put them to His own purposes.
The bottom line there is that, for Catholics, just because a thing is practiced by pagans doesn't mean it's wrong or evil. I have never argued that. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/15/2008 10:12:23 PM | jacobus101 said:
The bottom line there is that, for Catholics, just because a thing is practiced by pagans doesn't mean it's wrong or evil. I have never argued that.
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I speak now from the Wiccan side of Paganism. There are folks that would argue that with you. Many devoutly religious people say that spell casting is evil. Spell casting is the exact same as praying. Church folks pray for what they want....Witches cast spells. Same thing! A true Witch will never ever cast an evil spell. If we did it would be breaking #16 of our own code. "Cast ye not an evil spell, lest ye receive it back in threefold".
I understand what you are saying here and you are correct about Pagan practices. They are a lot different than what is considered "normal" with the church folks. | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/16/2008 3:32:01 AM |
I believe persistence is a virtue.
Yes, it is, but I am all out of funds to persist. Know anyone who wants to bankroll the persistence of annulment, if I do? | |
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| Catholicism vs Wiccan
Posted: 1/16/2008 4:43:13 AM | First allow me to say..thank you to all those of the Catholic/catholic religions for allowing me to understand their view point/s. I may not agree with all of them but..I am intrigued by your knowledge of them..and enjoy the learning experience. Blessed be..to all..may you find the peace and joy in the love of life.
Jacobus..
So..your last paragragh tells me that you don't stringently believe/follow in all the facts as stated and the "exact" worships of the Catholic /catholic Churches/churches descriptions..using your own "choice" of what is meant then by the fifth commandment..and that justification of the "difference" between killing..and murder..are not at all different but..one and the same. Not sure I understand the part about the Catholics/catholics not participating in killing for the sake of relgion/religious beliefs. Are you then saying the popes apologies for the Spanish Inquisitions was not forthcoming..and that the inquisitions wasn't killing in the name of religion/religious beliefs? I'm just trying to understand your point of view on this subject. No malice intended I assure you.
Yes..I know of soldiers that lay claim to being Wiccans..as I have also heard of prisoners in some US prisons as stating they are also Wiccans. IMO..they can not be so..as they have not followed the one..great Rede. Following this Rede..the Law..and the 13 Principals..and learning the rituals and the beliefs behind them..is what makes one a Wiccan. With that stated..I would also like to say..the possible non-existance on the areas of selecting the exact type or form of religion..as is the case in many places for the Pagan society...a soldier/prisoner..may only be given the option of the loosley mis-used "term" of Wicca as a choice for a polytheistic religous belief (rather than a monotheistic choice)..and not truly be Wiccan but..a different type/form of Pagan altogether. This is yet just another sad statement for the Wiccans. I know POF doesn't show any different types of selections of polytheism other than Wicca either. The use of a priestess for these so-called Wiccans amazes me. Have these so-called Wiccans never heard of the Solitary Practitioner? I would love to know all about these so-called priestess's as well..are they hired by the government/s services..and federal (government)/state prisons..the tax-payers? If so..who does the hiring..and how does this process take place? I would love to know how one priestess can be that well-versed as to care for all the different types/forms of pagans..and how she justifies payment for the worship of the god/goddesses and so on? The Threefold Law is in effect for all those that subscribe to the belief of Wicca. I would love more information on this subject. Oooopsy..my quest for knowledge is showing.
The Catholic/catholics never went into full or complete hiding as to make it seem their religion itself no-longer existed..or became considered "mythology" as opposed to an actual recorded practice..as far as I ever understood the Irish/Britanic wars/IRA..and the wars between the Catholics/catholics..and the Protestants anywhere but..were exiled to another area..or left on their own accord..to practice their faith somewhere else. They continued to practice their faith as openly as possible..right? Not have them hide even the fact of their being any such on-going religion..or turning it into myth for centuries. The Catholics/catholics fought back. Do you see the difference then in even just the attitude of the Wiccan (pacifists) and the Christian/Catholic/catholic & Protestants (aggressors)? Please enlighten me on this..I am truly interested. Oh the stories the Wiccans could tell about the Protestants! I'm pretty sure there's no need to get into the Salem Witch Trials(?) here with the oh so tolerant Puritans either.
I'm sorry if you think of any of this as argumentative on my part. Why all the defensiveness? This isn't combativeness to me..it is inquisitiveness..and asking "the tough questions" is sometimes what it takes to learn and to be ceratin you are being heard as well. Pacifism in the physical sense..with a tinge of aggressiveness in the sense of speech. I do feel that sometimes..Wicca..used as a religious base for most and/or all Pagan beliefs (passive and aggressive)..as the only polytheistic religion listed or heard of most times..as a sort of cover-all..or catch-phrase..and is therefor..very miscontrued by those of other religious beliefs..and mis-information of actual factual events as well then can be dismissed as mythological or worse bogus..and the religion then loses all validity and viability..to those with a closed mind..and heart. It's always best to have the ability to think for oneself..and not let a religion..especially one filled with hate..think for one. Those not "wanting" to listen so as to learn of the differences and/or the commonalities between all the religions..but just feel "safer" spewing their own well-published.."popular" and someimes hateful views and scriptures..is something the Wiccans and Pagans of all forms have become too accustomed to..and the Wiccans are just now beginning to speak out..somewhat. The "re-formation" of the Witta Tradionalists in the name of Wicca (with many different forms/variations/branches/sectors of Wicca itself )..practice a very "like"..or quite possibly identical belief system as those of the ancient religion. What at one time was considered completely lost..or had become a myth by so many..has returned to being truth for so many more of it's new followers.
I find it very unfortunate that Acapella hasn't been back to teach us of his beliefs in the founding of organized religion amongst the Neanderthals. The bit of knowledge that I do have on this subject..is more of a "scientific theory" (and only embraced by some scientists..not all) as it being a religion..and not a fact of organized religious beliefs being worshipped through rituals with a hierarchy. In fact..what I saw (based on cave drawings mostly) made it seem to me..to be more of the beginning of "the mens club" with it's pre-hunting rituals..then an actual organized religion. I would love to hear these facts presented by him. Oh well.......
Oh..and..can everyone learn to smile? Sheesh!
Btw..Wicca and Catholic/catholics (sorry..not sure if it's both C & c) share a Saint..Bridget. She is worshipped by the Celtic/Wiccans/Witta Traditionalists..as the mother Goddess. Supposedly one and the same person..both a goddess..and a Saint. | |
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