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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 12/30/2007 2:36:09 PM | You aren't any percentage vegetarian if you eat meat, even if you use that cutesy "pescetarian" term. You're an omnivore.
That said, you aren't going to be lacking anything as long as you eat a varied diet. The bulk of ANYONE's diet should be fresh produce.
By the way, the American Dietetic Association as well as the Dietitians of Canada both support vegetarian and vegan diets for ALL stages of life.
I'm a very strict vegetarian. I have been a vegetarian for almost 9 years now. I started out the exact same way. I still ate fish and then after the first two years I cut out all meat, including fish.
[...]
My personal experience with being a strict vegetarian is that I have never felt more healthy in my whole life.
Are you actually a strict vegetarian or are you just misusing the term? A strict vegetarian follows a vegan DIET (which is different than being vegan.)
p.s. vegetarians don't eat any animals. That includes fish, even for "the first two years."
The fact is that if most strict vegans were 100 % honest to themselves and society
they would say they "cheat" on their so called a diet a bit to be healthy.
lol. ok. Ignorance really is bliss, isn't it? It seems to run rampant here. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 12/30/2007 4:02:42 PM |
p.s. vegetarians don't eat any animals. That includes fish, even for "the first two years."
Well, if you wish to be technical about it, then I have been a vegetarian for the past 7 years. No meat eating what so ever, including fish. The original point I was making was that it took me some time to cut out all meat from my diet. It took me a while to find a variety of healthy things to eat to replace fish for the first few years, as it was not easy to do. I used to eat a lot of meat before becoming a vegetarian, however once I found that, it was all gone. Some people who try and cut out all meat right away, might not do so well if they try and do that all at once. As for the use of the term "strict" I stick with that. I'm a strict vegetarian and I see vegan as a whole different form of diet.
I respect anyone who at least cuts out any form of meat eating from there diet. They may not be a strict vegetarian but the way to look at it is like this. At least that is one less animal that has to die if a person cuts out meat even if it's just red meat. It's better then nothing. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 12/30/2007 6:05:07 PM |
Meat and dairy products from grass-fed ruminants are the richest
known source of good fat called "conjugated linoleic acid" or CLA.
CLA may be one of our most potent defenses against cancer.
In laboratory animals, a very small percentage of CLA—
a mere 0.1 percent of total calories—greatly reduced tumor growth.
There is new evidence that CLA may also reduce cancer risk in humans.
In a Finnish study, women who had the highest levels of CLA in their diet,
had a 60 percent lower risk of breast cancer than those with the lowest levels.
I've been on a supplement of that in the form of Black Currant Oil Capsules for over a year now and I can tell you I sure notice a different with trauma-induced-arthritis I have as the result of an accident. I've been posting about it for months around here. Sometimes I wonder if anyone else has listened. Compared to buying celebrex or other arthritis meds the stuff is dirt cheap. ($90 a month vs $23.75 for a 6 month supply) It's gotten me off celebrex and vioxx completely and I rarely use ibuprofen when things flare up (usually overuse or forgetting to take my BCO capsules for a few days) so I know it is combating the inflammation head-on. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 12/30/2007 6:06:11 PM | | PS - The brand I buy is Thorne Research. No affiliation to them, just tried a few of their products. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 12/31/2007 3:52:20 PM |
Old-Fashioned Porridge
So what are you going to have for breakfast? We need to go back to the old fashioned porridges, as I explain in Nourishing Traditions. These porridges should be soaked overnight in an acid medium to get rid of the anti-nutrients. Soaking will neutralize the tannins, complex proteins, enzyme inhibitors and phytic acid. You soak the grains in warm water with one tablespoon of something acidic like whey, yoghurt, lemon juice or vinegar. The next morning, the porridge cooks in about a minute. Of course, you eat your porridge with butter or cream like our grandparents did. The nutrients in the fats are needed to absorb the nutrients in the grains. That was one of the great lessons of Weston Price, that without the vitamins present in animal fats (vitamins A and D), you cannot assimilate minerals and other vitamins. You can be taking mineral supplements, drinking green juices or eating organic food until it comes out your ears, but you cannot absorb the minerals in your food without vitamins A and D that are exclusively found in the animal fats.
http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/dirty-secrets.html
Good enough argument right there for not going vegetarian.
Really there are many issues. The one who spurred me on to research anemia, a wonderfully brilliant young poetry writing acquaintance, helped to awaken me to how important meat really is in a diet.
Specifically in terms of iron when one eats meat the form of iron in meat assists in absorbing the form of iron in other non-meat products as well. This is why her vegetarian diet heavy in legumes and beans and rice ended her up so incredibly lethargically sick. She became severely anemic.
There is one other thing I have never seen any explanation for and that is that whenever one eats meat for about the next 24 hours their body temp is slightly warmer. That sounds invaluable to those of us living in colder parts of the country. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 12/31/2007 9:29:58 PM |
Some people who try and cut out all meat right away, might not do so well if they try and do that all at once.
I agree. That's irrelevant to what I said though.
As for the use of the term "strict" I stick with that. I'm a strict vegetarian and I see vegan as a whole different form of diet.
You can see anything you want, but you're spreading misinformation by using a term you don't fit. People like you are the reason people like me are served fish because "I know a vegetarian, and he eats fish." No, this isn't a reference to the fish thing earlier, it's similar to you calling yourself a "strict vegetarian" while eating dairy and eggs. It makes it much harder for those of us who actually fit the label you choose to use.
I respect anyone who at least cuts out any form of meat eating from there diet. They may not be a strict vegetarian but the way to look at it is like this. At least that is one less animal that has to die if a person cuts out meat even if it's just red meat. It's better then nothing.
Once again, you're arguing something that is totally irrelevant to what I said.
Good enough argument right there for not going vegetarian.
Really there are many issues. The one who spurred me on to research anemia, a wonderfully brilliant young poetry writing acquaintance, helped to awaken me to how important meat really is in a diet.
Are you serious? That's Weston Price. lol.
There is one other thing I have never seen any explanation for and that is that whenever one eats meat for about the next 24 hours their body temp is slightly warmer. That sounds invaluable to those of us living in colder parts of the country.
That's called the body working harder to try to digest what you fed it. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 12/31/2007 10:37:07 PM | You can see anything you want, but you're spreading misinformation by using a term you don't fit. People like you are the reason people like me are served fish because "I know a vegetarian, and he eats fish." No, this isn't a reference to the fish thing earlier, it's similar to you calling yourself a "strict vegetarian" while eating dairy and eggs. It makes it much harder for those of us who actually fit the label you choose to use.
I know of people that consider themselves vegetarian and still eat fish. Once again, that is why I use the term strick vegetarian for myself. I don't eat any meat, even though some people call themselves vegetarian and they do eat fish for example. I never considered myself a strict or true vegetarian the first 2 years as I said before. Yes I eat dairy and you don't see me saying. I'm a strict vegan, that would be misinformation as you put it. Thats, why you don't see me saying the word vegan tossed in with vegetarian. They are two different things and people tend to lump vegetarian and vegan in the same mix. I do see where your coming from in the point your trying to make. The difference we have is that you see vegan as a extension of vegetarian and I see them as two different choices of eating habits. See my point ? If your upset about being served fish, it's not because someone like me says I'm a strict vegetarian that causes you issues. I only ate fish for a few years and at that time, I did not call myself a strict or true vegetarian as I said before. I would agree with you fully, if I said I was a strict vegetarian and yet I still ate fish. Anyway, I respect your point of view.
Happy New Year! | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 12/31/2007 11:22:11 PM | The main nutrient lacking in a vegan diet is vitamin B12.
You can go a long time before needing to supplement this because the liver stores enough of it, and you only need tiny amounts. But to be safe, take a B12 supplement once in a while.
Tell your Doctor you are taking this supplement if you are being checked for iron deficiency because B12 can mask an iron deficiency.
Many ethnic recipes use meat mostly as a flavoring, (except in the Americanized versions of them). Try making ethnic foods using very small portions of meat for a few months until your body acclimates to the new diet.
Google the Gluten-free/Casein-free diets. There are many good cookbooks on the market now for use in the Autism community. This diet eliminates both wheat (and all gluten) and dairy. The recipes can help you find alternatives to just eating lots of bread and pasta and cheese.
Seventh Day Adventists live very long lives on vegetarian diets. Perhaps you should search some of their information.
Go to farmer's markets and buy locally grown fresh produce and get recipies from the people there. You can do your whole week's shopping there!
You can get almost a complete protein in a meal if you combine beans and rice.
Go outside at least 15 minutes per day for sunlight (on at least your hands and face.) That is supposed to give you enough vitamin D for the day. Otherwise, there are rice and soy milks that have vitamin D added to them.
Switch to sea salt for trace minerals that aren't found in regular salt. (Plus, it tastes better.)
Add fermented foods like miso, tamari, sourkraut, and various pickles to gain extra food values. Also, use various types of mushrooms. Sauted mushrooms make almost anything taste a little like meat is in it. Using small amounts of sea vegetables will help you get iodine, and add digestibility and a more savory flavor.
Use fresh lemon (instead of vinegar,) fresh garlic, fresh ginger and olive oil for more flavors.
Vegetarian is a very healthy and sensual way to eat, but even better if you can cook the food yourself, and choose a wide variety of foods. Have fun and experiment! | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/1/2008 1:04:46 AM | Ideoform.
You gave some great advice. Thank you. Regarding the beans with rice suggestion you gave. That is very healthy, I also love to steam pea pods with carrots, green pepper and make a large amount of rice. I love that, it makes a great meal and can be stored away for quite a few meals. I mainly eat just that and a lot of Boca products, along with soy milk. Only thing I have heard is that too much soy can maybe be bad, although so far I feel healthy with the amount of soy I eat.
Any thoughts regarding to much soy in a persons diet?
Happy New Year!  | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/1/2008 2:47:13 AM |
Any thoughts regarding to much soy in a persons diet? I very rarely eat soya but this is because I have a mysterious thyroid problem and am avoiding things that could potentially exacerbate it. I never really ate much soya, I don't see the need for meat-substitutes: a person can live very well on the wide range of vegetables, fruits, grains, legumes, nuts and seeds that are available to us. If you look up "raw vegan" you'll see that many people advocate a diet based on raw nuts and seeds as being the most healthy. I've not eaten meat nor fish or dairy for about 15 years but for me it was never about my health, it was the health of the animals that concerned me, and later, the health of the planet and all the other people inhabiting it.
Quite frankly, I would choose to avoid meat even if I knew my health would be a little worse for it, because I believe it is morally wrong to cause suffering when you can choose not to. Most dietary related problems seem to be the result of consuming too much meat, dairy, fat and processed food, laden with chemicals. You can be an unhealthy vegan too and live on sandwiches of white bread and hydrogenated "spread" sprinkled with monosodium glutenate, sugar and salt. A diet that is vegetarian or vegan is not automatically one that is healthy. However, I believe that it is entirely possible to eat a vegan or vegetarian diet that is more healthy than any diet that includes the cholesterol and saturated fat that is unavoidable even in lean meat and I am certain that it is healthier for the planet to choose the veggie option.
There are more cows than cars and more greenhouse gas is produced by the cows than by the cars we drive.
The protein thing is kind of a myth: if you look at our nearest animal relatives, primates, you'll find that the calories they consume in natural healthy diet approximates to the proportions 80% carbohydrate, 10% protein and 10% fats. You can use nutritional tables to compare the mineral, vitamin and protein content of meats against other foods and you will notice that the only thing that meat really has more of is cholesterol and saturated fat. It's not as good for either protein or iron as people think. If you do a search for vegan bodybuilders or vegan athletes, you'll find a wealth of information and evidence that you can build scary amounts of muscle without meat or even with quite low consumption of protein.
Even if the idea of going veggie is too much, avoiding meat for a few days each week should contribute positively to your health and will significantly reduce the amount of suffering and pollution resulting from your diet. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/1/2008 2:29:01 PM |
I very rarely eat soya but this is because I have a mysterious thyroid problem and am avoiding things that could potentially exacerbate it.
I have heard this as well about the thyroid issue. It was something that I happen to hear on a radio talk show once about soy but they also seemed to state that it was only in very excessive amounts consumed that it would be a problem. I think it's best though to do what your doing and avoid soy since you do have a thyroid problem.
Did you used to eat a lot of soy and then developed the thyroid problem? Or, have you never hardly ate soy and had the thyroid problem regardless?
The reason I ask is because the person that I happen to hear on this radio talk show was specifically addressing the issue with thyroid issues. I agree with much of your post and I also am now going to begin to cut back some on my soy consumption. I'll eat more veggies to compensate and more grains. I will still eat soy, but I'm going to work on eating a bit less then what I do now.
Thanks for the post rune3 and I also feel the same way about your statement here.
Quite frankly, I would choose to avoid meat even if I knew my health would be a little worse for it, because I believe it is morally wrong to cause suffering when you can choose not to.
I feel eating a vegetarian diet is overall more healthy then eating meat, however even if it was not I would still make the same choice that I have also and avoid meat. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/2/2008 1:38:52 AM |
Good enough argument right there for not going vegetarian.
Really there are many issues. The one who spurred me on to research anemia, a wonderfully brilliant young poetry writing acquaintance, helped to awaken me to how important meat really is in a diet. Are you serious? That's Weston Price. lol.
Yeah, you gave so many options, facts, and all to combat that. You didn't even address the original source of the info. The original info comes before that and has been well studied as nutritionists try to point out the importance of fats in our diet. They are important carriers of nutrients and add to a grains usability once its within our body.
If you'd quit laughing for a moment you'd realize a lot of people hurt themselves going vegetarian or vegan. Doing it properly is not exactly as easy as just avoiding meat. The aforementioned person I knew who ended up severely anemic and severely sick had an IQ around 165 so if she could screw it up, especially under parental supervision of a family full of vegetarians, believe me when I say anyone else could too.
If you're going to be so much help why don't you just disappear -- You already blatantly violate the terms of use of POF repeatedly with your obvious anger management issues that you wear like some preverted badge of pride. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/2/2008 4:04:20 AM |
Did you used to eat a lot of soy and then developed the thyroid problem? Or, have you never hardly ate soy and had the thyroid problem regardless? I never ate that much soya, other than soya milk on my cereal. The endocrinologist I saw had no clue about my thyroid problem, couldn't identify or suggest any possible cause or recommend any strategy: didn't even ask a single question about my diet. All they could do was say that if it got sufficiently bad they can cut my thyroid gland out and put me on artificial thyroid hormones for life so the expert health advice I have personal access to is, as you can see, pathetic. So I did a lot of reading...
The most likely cause is actually stress, for me, although an iodine deficiency was also a possible contributory factor: when I went vegan the information was that there was iodine enough in vegetables which is no longer the case, as the soil is depleted. I was unaware of this and I was also unaware that the UK government decided the best way to address the problem was to keep it quiet and to supplement cattle feed with iodine, which ensures everyone gets iodine (except the vegans). You have to be very careful with iodine, often included in multivitamins, (vegans and meat eaters alike) because too much or too little can easily cause problems. However, this is much more of a worry for women because the thyroid is busier, being involved in controlling the monthly cycles by raising and lowering levels of hormones. High levels of stress/high levels of adrenaline also cause a lot of pressure to be put on the thyroid gland.
Replace soya milk with oat, rice or nut milk. Make your own bean burgers etc without soya. Use lentils and beans more, rather than soya mince/chunks. Try to avoid processed food as much as possible, just make yourself aware of what is in those packaged foodstuffs and when you choose to eat soya, I suspect that non GM, organic soya is the better choice. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/2/2008 4:54:46 AM | What a story, rune! Spirulina is another vegetarian friendly supplement with the B-12. As far as I know its the ONLY significant vegetarian source of B-12 and because its from the ocean as a seaweed it is very high in those trace minerals including iodine.
There are now more noted cases of specific areas of soil becoming more depleted. There was one area in china devoid of selenium so that became the new overly PR'ed supermineral for awhile as the result of people having a specific selenium-deficient heart defect.
If you do have a good recipe for bean burgers using lentils and products without soy please share it in the Recipes and Cooking forums. I would love to have such a recipe as I gave up hamburger years ago myself due simply to how unhealthy most of it is. Obviously I miss a burger from time to time. If it was a good enough quality replacement I'd do it meatless.
Lentils are a very good product, nutritionally, but I rarely know what else to do with them that I actually like. When I cook them I always make them into a cold salad with olive oil, garlic, and white wine vinegar. Lasts forever in the fridge and is a good sidedish or quick meal on occasion.
Good info, Ideoform.
Vegan bodybuilding... oh, you people think of everything. The things I don't google as the result of reading on POF. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/2/2008 11:02:33 PM | I know of people that consider themselves vegetarian and still eat fish. Once again, that is why I use the term strick vegetarian for myself. I don't eat any meat, even though some people call themselves vegetarian and they do eat fish for example. I never considered myself a strict or true vegetarian the first 2 years as I said before. Yes I eat dairy and you don't see me saying. I'm a strict vegan, that would be misinformation as you put it. Thats, why you don't see me saying the word vegan tossed in with vegetarian. They are two different things and people tend to lump vegetarian and vegan in the same mix. I do see where your coming from in the point your trying to make. The difference we have is that you see vegan as a extension of vegetarian and I see them as two different choices of eating habits. See my point ? If your upset about being served fish, it's not because someone like me says I'm a strict vegetarian that causes you issues. I only ate fish for a few years and at that time, I did not call myself a strict or true vegetarian as I said before. I would agree with you fully, if I said I was a strict vegetarian and yet I still ate fish. Anyway, I respect your point of view.
There's no such thing as a "strict vegan". Either you are or you aren't. Let me break it down for you.
Vegetarian is a blanket term. It covers the 5 levels of vegetarianism. There's none of this "pollo pesce semi" crap. Five. That's it.
NO vegetarians eat meat. Fish and chicken are meat.
Lacto vegetarians - milk, no eggs.
Ovo vegetarians - eggs, no milk.
Lacto-ovo vegetarians - eggs and milk
Strict vegetarians - strictly plant based diet. Some call it a vegan DIET (which is NOT the same as being vegan) No animal products. No dairy, no eggs, no honey, nothing animal-derived.
Vegans - plant-based diet (as above). Vegan implies moral concern for animals and extends to lifestyles as well. We avoid animal products in our consumables such as shampoo, make up, cleaning products, and so on. No leather, wool, suede, silk, and so on, and we avoid animal testing.
You can eat whatever you want or don't want, but why would you use a label you don't fit?
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/3/2008 12:16:27 AM | Strict vegetarians - strictly plant based diet. Some call it a vegan DIET (which is NOT the same as being vegan) No animal products. No dairy, no eggs, no honey, nothing animal-derived.
Strict vegetarian, a no meat diet. Exactly, thats what I am, since I don't eat any meat. Some may call it a vegan diet, I don't. I never have called myself a vegan once. If someone says they are a strict vegan and they eat eggs and dairy, then you need to take that issue up with them.
You can eat whatever you want or don't want, but why would you use a label you don't fit?
Again, my lable as I described above, fits what I am. Strict vegetarian period. No meat do I consume. As I stated in a above post, you had a point about the fact that I made a mistake in my first post when I said I was a vegetarian for 9 years but I ate fish sometimes for the first two years. You pointed that out and you were correct, I was a strict, or true vegetarian for 7 years, not 9. My lable fits exactly what I am now and how I eat. If you show me where I have called myself a vegan at any point (which you won't since I never used that term for myself) then I will gladly admit your correct in your above statement.
The only other issue that I see that you have with what I'm saying is that you just don't like the term "strict" period. You see it that a person is either a vegetarian or a vegan but no such term as strict should be used. Here is why I use the term strict in the first place as I have tried to explain and you pointed out in the above. The fact is, not all people do see being a vegetarian for example the same way. There are some (not me) who see eating fish as being a vegetarian. I have heard people who do eat fish say that before. In what I pointed out in my first post, was a mistake on my part as I explained.
Now... The reason I do use the term "strict vegetarian" is to seperate myself from those who use the vegetarian label in the other fashion and yet they eat fish. I agree, that is not being a vegetarian if a person eats fish, you see? I use the term "strict" and I never get offered any kind of meat, no matter where I am or whos at the table. Most see that when I say that, they see it in the way I do. They see it (as I've been told before) that "oh he don't eat any type of meat what so ever" That frees me for ever having to say no thank you over and over when offered some form of meat that is not a red meat. Trust me, it does work.
If you read exactly what I'm saying here, you will find that even though you might not like the term, it does apply exactly to what I am in the way I use the term. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/3/2008 7:59:11 AM | @picescoda
It is impossible for anyone to live a lifestyle that does not contribute anything to animal suffering. Taken to extremes, just breathing in and out we're consuming oxygen and producing carbon dioxide, contributing to global warming and the associated environmental damage and effects on animals; stop breathing and soon your decomposing body will contribute further gases to the system. Of all the "vegan" products that you buy, most are commercially farmed and do you really think that no animals die in the production and harvesting of crops? Fewer animals die, far fewer, but still some die -- to the pesticides, the tractors, the combine harvesters, the transportation lorries, the rat traps in the grain stores... It is far less harmful to animals, the harm is largely accidental, but unless you grow all your own food and never step on a single bug or accidentally drown one as you wash your veggies, your food is always going to involve some harm to animals.
The militant brigade among the vegan community is in my opinion extremely damaging, promoting a "holier than thou" attitude that is completely repellent and destructive to the actual positive ideals of reducing our unnecessary use, abuse and consumption of animals.
Why does it bother you if a man who is not vegetarian says that he is, when it is clearly not done to deceive anyone as to his actual diet, but in order to communicate to others what he does not wish to eat. The majority of the population has no idea about the definitions you detail and so they are not functional. You cannot go into a random café and ask for a ovo-vegetarian meal and expect them to know that egg and chips are okay but a cheese toastie is out. We use words to communicate and it only makes sense to use the words by which others will understand our meaning rather than the technically correct terms. If I am teaching numeracy to students who are struggling with the absolute basics, I am going to use the word "formulas" rather than "formulae" because although the first option is technically incorrect, they understand it, it communicates what I need them to understand...
On rare occasions I will eat food that contains free range eggs. Sometimes I have not done so for years but the simple fact is that I see very little that is morally wrong with a good, small, free-range egg production compared with flying sweetcorn to the UK from Thailand, for example. I'd even keep hens myself if they weren't so... beaky. However, stating this exeption to my diet just confuses people. The label "vegan" communicates what I will eat. Making veganism into a kind of inflexible religion, in my opinion is missing the point and it's also reducing the scope.
Would you rather eat a chicken that has been treated as kindly as a pet for some years, in your neighbour's garden, and killed completely unexpectedly without it suffering any pain -- or would you choose a nut roast made from cashew nuts picked by workers who are paid so little that they cannot live, whose hands are blistered with the chemicals used to shell the nuts, who suffer respiratory disease from the chemicals sprayed without warning onto the crops whilst they work, not to mention the cost to the environment of producing these nuts and then flying them around the world. Which is really the better choice for the planet? Thankfully, we are not limited to choices like these.
We don't tend to have this choice, but to me veganism falls short because it only considers the immediate obvious consequences of the food choice. Ideally, I think we should consider the abuse of humans and the environment, not just the use of animal products as an indicator of cruelty. Why isn't fair trade a part of the definition of being vegan if vegans really care about animal abuse? Humans are animals too, aren't they? Is a free range egg from your own hen house really worse than a non-free-trade banana? The hen is less abused than the banana picker, for sure.
My point is that it is a long journey to learning to make the right choices. In my ignorance and habit I make a lot of wrong choices and one can only give so much energy to working on this small aspect of one's life. Excluding meat from your diet is a positive step and I have no problem with someone referring to himself as a strict vegetarian if he wants to communicate to others the fact that he won't eat anything that is from the animal kingdom: it serves the purpose so why fuss? Holding up a label as some kind of ideal alienates people who would feel more positively about learning about making choices that reduce the level of suffering. None of us is perfect and we'd do a lot better if we simply cheered those around us who could make any positive choices rather than criticising them for the steps they have not taken. There are many steps left for us all to take and I'm sure we could all use all the support we can get. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/13/2008 7:47:53 PM | It is impossible for anyone to live a lifestyle that does not contribute anything to animal suffering. Did I argue that? Because there's so much similarity between choosing a hamburger (which by the way, comes from a cow that eats multiple times as many plants as I do, so I still win) and accidental/incidental insect/rodent deaths during tilling (by the way, research no-till farming if you actually care and aren't just arguing for the sake of arguing). I love people who think if you can't do everything, you shouldn't do anything. Vegans don't think we live 100% cruelty free lives. We just choose not to actively participate in and condone animal cruelty. There is a huge difference.
Veganism: a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practical, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. - Vegan Society (you know, the ones who coined the term ;) )
Vegetarian: someone living on a diet of grains, pulses, nuts, seeds, vegetables and fruits with or without the use of dairy products and eggs.
A vegetarian does not eat any meat, poultry, game, fish, shellfish or crustacea, or slaughter by-products. -Vegetarian Society (you know, the ones who coined the term ;) )
None of us is perfect and we'd do a lot better if we simply cheered those around us who could make any positive choices rather than criticising them for the steps they have not taken. I never once put him down for not being vegan. I couldn't care less what he eats or doesn't eat. I told him he shouldn't be incorrectly using a label and furthering misinformation. Why would someone add "strict" to vegetarian because they don't eat meat? That's a given. Vegetarians don't eat meat.
I think we should consider the abuse of humans and the environment, not just the use of animal products as an indicator of cruelty. Why isn't fair trade a part of the definition of being vegan if vegans really care about animal abuse? Humans are animals too, aren't they? Is a free range egg from your own hen house really worse than a non-free-trade banana? The hen is less abused than the banana picker, for sure.
And stuff like that reminds me of my favorite quote:
When nonvegetarians say that “human problems come first” I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for human beings that compels them to continue to support the wasteful, ruthless exploitation of farm animals.
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/13/2008 11:52:18 PM |
Did I argue that? Because there's so much similarity between choosing a hamburger (which by the way, comes from a cow that eats multiple times as many plants as I do, so I still win) and accidental/incidental insect/rodent deaths during tilling (by the way, research no-till farming if you actually care and aren't just arguing for the sake of arguing). I love people who think if you can't do everything, you shouldn't do anything. Vegans don't think we live 100% cruelty free lives. We just choose not to actively participate in and condone animal cruelty. There is a huge difference. Picescoda, I thought I made it clear that it was impossible to make a choice that did not result in animal cruelty -- I was absolutely not saying that we should do nothing at all: on the contrary I advocate that we all do as much as we can and as I said, I don't believe that veganism goes nearly far enough in many ways especially in considering cruelty to humans, who are also animals.
For your information, since you appear to be addressing me as if I am not a supporter of vegetarianism, I have been vegetarian since I was 16 and I gave up dairy and non-free-range eggs at about 18. Except for the occasional free-range egg, I've been vegan for about 15 years. I also support human rights charities and developing world charities and try to buy fair trade. I do not think that veganism is enough. I hope to do more in the future as I become more able to. I am absolutely not advocating not making an effort. I just think that militant vegans miss the point and alienate people who would do more if they had more support for the measures they are trying to take rather than being bashed for the ones they are not.
Bashing someone for calling himself a "strict vegetarian" when he is finding that that is the most effective way in which he can communicate that he does not want to be served meat or fish of any kind, in any form, is simply unproductive. If it takes calling yourself allergic to milk to ensure that restaurants provide you with a proper vegan meal, I know some vegans choose to do that. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/14/2008 12:37:44 AM |
I never once put him down for not being vegan. I couldn't care less what he eats or doesn't eat. I told him he shouldn't be incorrectly using a label and furthering misinformation. Why would someone add "strict" to vegetarian because they don't eat meat? That's a given. Vegetarians don't eat meat.
Your last post that you had wrote about me was deleted for a reason. ;)
To keep things respectful here picescoda, if you read what I've tried to say over and over in my above post, you will see way I use the term "strict" I know you don't agree but trust me when I say, it does work for me. Also, I know you may feel it's "a given" that vegetarians don't eat any meat, but truly it's not a given. If it was "a given" then I could just say I'm a vegetarian and thats that.
Bashing someone for calling himself a "strict vegetarian" when he is finding that that is the most effective way in which he can communicate that he does not want to be served meat or fish of any kind, in any form, is simply unproductive. If it takes calling yourself allergic to milk to ensure that restaurants provide you with a proper vegan meal, I know some vegans choose to do that.
Thank you Rune3!
You read my other post and understood exactly where I was coming from the very first time you read it. I know I'm not a vegan and I agree with you that there is always more that people can do. My love for animals is great and I do the best I can as do you. I had a old leather jacket that I threw out. I do not buy anything that is leather if I can help it. I'm not about to say I'm perfect in every area. I do eat eggs for breakfast and I do eat cheese. For me personally, it was a huge step to stop eating all forms of meat. My very first post on here was trying to encourage the OP. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/14/2008 1:30:08 AM | piscescoda
This post is just for you. To get technical I'm a. "Lacto-ovo vegetarian"
Now with that said, I can't imagine saying that at a restaurant or strangers dinner table. I would rather use a term that works for me and everytime I do use it, everyone seems to understand that I don't want any meat product. I don't have to explain, "no I don't eat fish" when someone offers it. If I said I was a "Lacto ovo vegetarian" I would spend more time explaining exactly what I do and don't eat rather then actually eating my salad.
There, you heard me say it. I have to do what allows me to eat my meal and not have to go through some long winded speech. Wait, I'm going through a speech here, oh well it's ok I'm not sitting down to a meal anyway at the moment.
I'll stick to "strict vegetarian" it's what works best and keeps the fish offers away at the table. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/14/2008 1:42:44 AM |
Did I argue that? Because there's so much similarity between choosing a hamburger (which by the way, comes from a cow that eats multiple times as many plants as I do, so I still win) and accidental/incidental insect/rodent deaths during tilling (by the way, research no-till farming if you actually care and aren't just arguing for the sake of arguing). I love people who think if you can't do everything, you shouldn't do anything. Vegans don't think we live 100% cruelty free lives. We just choose not to actively participate in and condone animal cruelty. There is a huge difference.
Veganism: a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practical, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. - Vegan Society (you know, the ones who coined the term ;) )
Vegetarian: someone living on a diet of grains, pulses, nuts, seeds, vegetables and fruits with or without the use of dairy products and eggs.
A vegetarian does not eat any meat, poultry, game, fish, shellfish or crustacea, or slaughter by-products. -Vegetarian Society (you know, the ones who coined the term ;) )
Exactly. We don't live in a perfect world, and ultimately at some point in the chain, something we eat or do will have somehow contributed to the suffering of animals or other human beings. We can't do anything other than do everything we can to ensure we don't actively contribute to that.
For my part, I have been a lacto-ovo vegetarian since I was 10/11 years old, but the reason why is because of a vegan mindset. Yes, I eat/drink dairy products and eggs, but I buy them from local free range farms where I know the conditions of the animals are completely humane. I also don't wear leather.
As for the health aspect of it, I've been a lacto-ovo vegetarian for about 13 years now, and surprise surprise, any health problems I've had when I've been to see the doctor have had nothing at all to do with my diet. | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/14/2008 7:19:20 AM |
If I said I was a "Lacto ovo vegetarian" I would spend more time explaining exactly what I do and don't eat rather then actually eating my salad.
That's probably what she wants. Not realizing, of course, that aloofness hurts her "cause"(if there truly is one). | |
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| Considering going vegetarian
Posted: 1/14/2008 8:32:16 PM |
Spirulina is another vegetarian friendly supplement with the B-12. As far as I know its the ONLY significant vegetarian source of B-12 and because its from the ocean as a seaweed it is very high in those trace minerals including iodine.
The spirulina that we consume is hydroponically grown, and is not from the ocean.
Chlorella, spirulina, and aphanizomenon flos-aquae (AFA) are all edible algaes that all contain B12. The trouble is is that not only do they contain active B12 but they also contain analog B12 which compete for the same receptor sites. Therefore, if you consume these products, and have good B12 levels, it may be because of the human active B12 or it could be because of the analogs. One could check their homocysteine levels. Methylcobalamin (B12) is used to change homocysteine into methionine. Homocysteine levels increase with low B12 (This can also happen with low B6 and folic acid.).
But, don't go pointing the finger at the veggie lovers out there. Just because you eat meat doesn't mean you are exempt from having low B12 levels. Most resources feel that malabsorption is the prime culprit and meat eaters have just as good a chance, even more, to having low HCL and other digestive disturbances that inhibit the absorption of B12. But, yes, as a vegan or raw foodist you do run the risk, over the years, of having a B12 deficiency. (it is expected to be about an 80% chance). B12 supplements are a must for veg*n's.
BTW, Red Star Nutritional Yeast is the only food that wins hands down for having active B12. | |
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