| legalize it?
Posted: 1/12/2008 8:56:06 AM | | there are a few people stating that they think PEDs should be legalized. i believe this to be more of a reactionary ploy than a legitimate philosophy. througout humanity there have been moments where we are tested as a society as to which direction the future will be. many a time it would have been much easier to just say oh well and just let things happen unimpeded. i think we owe it to future generations to try and get this under control now and not let this spriral much further. where is the ceilling for physical and mental alterations? will we ever be happy with who we are and not try to shoot for something we shouldnt naturally posess? we define the future through present actions. i believe this all boils down to a matter of public opinion and as long as people dont cry out, voicing disagreement, nothing will be done and eventually it could be legalized. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 202 | |
| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/12/2008 12:15:34 PM | Hey pickmynose,
i get what Fish was pointing out...the fact that Clemons was one of the few who didnt cheat on his wife, just does not make a huge significance in my opinion when it comes to steroid allegations.
"i think you point that his fastball was harder in the late nineties is wrong"
how is it wrong?
His fastball increased a few miles per hour after he left Boston. (i'll try to find the source as to where i read that).
"i personally think he is innocent"
and your entitled to your opinion. But im curious does that mean all the other players that have implicted are innocent too iyo?
McNamme accussed Petite too....and Andy later admitted to using HGH.
Giambi has admitted it as well...others too.
Palmeiro if i recall too. | |
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| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/12/2008 4:36:22 PM | | Pucks, I don't have concrete proof that Clemen's fastball was harder but, do you have proof that it was? Clemens best years were in the mid to late 80's NOT the 90's where many think he took steroids. I think he became more of a finesse pitcher than power pitcher. He mastered the split finger fastball which is not as hard but, has more movement. I'm not trying to defend Clemens but, until there is proof that he took steroids he's innocent. | |
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| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/12/2008 4:54:32 PM | | the normal evolution of a power pitcher is to develop more of a finesse game towards the second half or end of career. i know from watching roger clemens when he played for the yankees the first time that he was no longer the blow you away pitcher that he used to be. from that point forward clemens adapted his pitching game to one that was more cerebral. the splitter he developed while with the jays and later perfected redefined his career and its only relation to power was the lack of it and the need to survive in MLB. i personally know from watching that clemens was a smarter pitcher later in his career and not a more powerful one. he recieved the accolades later in his career from brains and not brawn. the conspiracy addicts are going to have to keep reaching for examples of his supposed guilt because a rise of velocity later in his career did not happen. remember he pitched through the 2007 season and may even pitch in 2008. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 205 | |
| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/12/2008 5:00:23 PM | No i dont have proof. how could i?
i get my info like you do i assume...from sports magazines, newspapers, tv etc.
I have read several times (newsweek was one i can recall).
"Clemons best years were in the mid to late 80's NOT the 90's where many think he took steroids"
according to the so called experts and sports writers it was after Clemons departed Boston, following 4 poorer seasons..prior to that he did well in Beantown, where Roger went 40W and 39Loses before going to the Jays. Boston management thought he was past his prime and his numbers over his last 4 years as a Red Sox confirmed that.
"I think he became more of a finesse piticher than a power pitcher"
your kidding right?
you really think that...Goodness we greatly disagree on this one too then. Roger imo is still really on his power stuff. A finesse pitcher to me is someone like Glavine, who really one spots and off speed stuff. Roger has always and still is a power pitcher. He is famous for his inside hard stuff...and brushing off hitters as a means of intimidation.
"until there is proof that he took steroids he's innocent"
Agreed. But we all have our opinions and my as you know is i think he used.
In TO and NY he was buff and had reclaimed his high 90's fastball. There are too many issues leaning against him. 45 yrs old and still pitching is odd in itself.
Why didnt Clemons sue the author (George Mitchell) of the BIG report implicating him?
Kudos to star pitcher Andy Petite, who by the way is Clemons buddy and training partner, for confessing that he used HGH, just as McNamee said he did. | |
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| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/12/2008 5:14:13 PM | Clemen's could be guilty I don't disagree, but I personally think he's innocent. I still have to disagree with you that he was better later in his career. You're getting your information from media and "experts" these are NOT the ones to listen to. I know that from the Toronto media and the Leafs. When they win 5 in row which is rare, nothing is mentioned in the paper, but if they lose 5 in row the whole sports section is talking of firing coaches etc. My point is don't rely on media and magazines to get accurat info.
Regarding Clemens I personally saw him pitch in Toronto and he was NOT a more powerful pitcher than he was in Boston, he was a finesse pitcher. That is my objective opinion not relying on "experts" for information because I feel I am as informed of more informed than they are. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, this is mine. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 207 | |
| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/12/2008 5:22:21 PM | "My point is dont rely on media and magazines to get acurat info"
while i agree the media can be biased, where do you get some accurate info then?
you and Fish, if i understand your view correctly are saying the Mitchell report is a farse? (correct me if im wrong)...That is not media right? They spend 20 Million on this investigation and some of you say that this is not accurate either. Sounds too cyncial and hyprcritcal to me.
Tell me where you get accuarte info from them?
Please dont say Roger's website. lol
"Regarding Clemens I personally saw him pitch in Toronto and he was NOT more powerful pitcher than he was in Boston"
Yes i have seen Mr. Clemens in TO too.
The writers are saying he regained his fastball, NOT that he was more powerful in TO than in Boston. He lost velocity to his fastball and tailed off as a dominant pitcher in the last 4 years in Beantown. Hope that is clearer. | |
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| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/13/2008 7:44:03 AM | | i have presented pucks with fact after fact building a case for clemens about at least giving him the benefit of the doubt until some legitimate proof is produced. my head hurts from banging it on the wall. he chooses to ignore everything i and others produced. just like in his last post states he chooses to believe ones mans words(mcnamees) for the entirity of his case. conciously or sub conciously he knows this is not enough so he also fabricates information in an attempt to benefit his case, as you can see in his previous posts. i would suggest to anyone trying to show him the reality of the subject to stop now or your head will hurt also. | |
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| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/13/2008 8:33:23 AM | | Thanks Fishernick, I surrender, I give up and will stop before my head hurts. I do think it was a waste of money (20 million dollars) and come up with no REAL proof of steroid use. I guess you could say from the Mitchel report atleast some athletes have come forward (Petitte), but has it really proven anything and worth 20 million dollars? | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 210 | |
| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/13/2008 9:39:24 AM | "i have presented pucks with fact after fact"
really what facts? please reviews all these facts in Clemons support.
Seems to me with Fish and Pickmynose, that when you can rebutt you get personal and make claims that i fabricate information and tell lies.  | |
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| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/13/2008 9:42:37 AM | The Mitchell report is nothing more than a cry for help fromMLB to US Congress to fix this mess by Selig. Personally I think Selig's a creepy meatball type that can't negotiate anything. The report clearly hints that the players union is too tough for MLB to do anything about the steroid problem because of the ridiculous procedures for testing having to meet union requirements etc.
MLB is not exonnerating itself in this mess in this report either though, as it also readily admits many times throughout the report that a great many owners, CEO's and managers, example, laRussa and Sandy Alderson had foreknowledge of this problem and really couldn't, or didn't do anything besides report mysterious substance appearances in the mail to the league.
It's nothing more than a 20 million dollar plea for the US government to step in and try to rectify this problem, taking the players union out of the protective equation.
On the Marion Jones thing, I think all it really shows is that amateur sport hasn't advanced at all really. I mean 12 years after the public humiliation of Ben Johnson, you've still got these athletes cheating to win and lying about it. Maybe now with this prison sentence, it'll start sending the message throughout the sporting world. Perhaps now, the reward will no longer be worth the risk...
If I were bub bub bub Barry Bonds, I think I'd be sh1tting a bub bub bubbrick right about now. Won't quite be Yankee pinstripes he'll be wearing, but by the end of the year methinks Barry will be wearing interior pinstripes, or maybe a nice orange jumpsuit. Then we'll see if he gets voted into the Hall of Fame or not.
Do you care now Bobby? Huh? Bobby, Do you care now?
Robert Deniro ~ The Fan
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 212 | |
| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/13/2008 7:04:55 PM | Fish,
McNamee is not the only witness in the steroid allegations brought out by the Mitchell Report.
Many of the names in the Mitchell report are connected thru a social network centering around Kirk Rudoniski (sp?) - another witness to steroids...He was involved with the Mets organization.
The Mitchell report also contains over 700 people who were interviewed during the investigation.
Another 500 former players were contacted, of those 68 agreed to be interviewed.
Plus 550 other tinerviews were done from current or former club officials, managers, coaches, team physcians, trainers and security agents.
IMO, Clemons is getting heat because he is the most prominent name out of the 80 plus players mentioned in the report. Clemons should be faulted for not speaking to Mitchell. He had his chance and choose not too. | |
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| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/14/2008 3:17:30 PM | | MLB payed 20 million to publish a report that taints its image even further. i dont think that was selig's intention were when he implemented this report. is it just irony that a boston red sox executive named so many yankees in his report? 80% of all the testimony are from two men (20 million). there is so little evidence that no lawyer in the world would try to prosecute anybody named in this report. has it proven anything? no, unless you jump to conclusions. was it worth it? no way. 20 million to further taint baseballs image. some cancelled checks and a whole lot of hear say. good job mitchell | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 214 | |
| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/15/2008 5:34:36 PM | ^^^The good thing is, Mitchell did bring to light what has been locked up for far to long.
Too many MLB players are juicing up. | |
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| Roger Clemens
Posted: 1/17/2008 12:30:43 PM | | PED's were not around back in the days of the Babe, or Hank . The way I see it Hanks record still stands Bonds never broke it ! The pros today get paid lots of money for playing a sport, why waste it on drugs ? I say if they get caught with PED of any kind or any illegal drugs kick them out of the clubhouse. If that was one of us people that went to work and had a drug or alchohol test and was tested positive would'nt we be fired ? If Clemens has good proof that he was'nt on anything I hope he passes the test . | |
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| stubblefield and the NFL
Posted: 1/19/2008 12:28:01 PM | | dana stubblefield, a 3 time pro bowler, pleaded guilty to lying to federal investigators. making him the first NFL player charged in the long running federal investigation against balco. i believe this to be a pivital point in the public opinion of steroids. the feds are now going to focus on the NFL. the average person in the united states believe that most players in the NFL use PEDs, but for some reason no one cares. MLB has been getting hammered by public opinion and the press, why? NFL gets a free pass. MLB gets overly scrutinized. no one talks about the NBA? no one thinks there is a problem in the NHL? i think the feds finally realized they have been going after the wrong party, MLB. its obvoius to everyone that out of these four sports i mentioned which one has the biggest problem with PEDs usage. i am not saying that MLB does not have a problem but why does apparently no one care about the NFL? shhh dont mention the NBA. the NHL, no problem here. our athletes dont try to gain a competitive edge, yhea right. who do they think they are fooling? apparently most people in the united states and canada. | |
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| newest clemens/mcnamee twists
Posted: 2/7/2008 12:42:14 PM | | around one month ago mcnamee supplied a federal agent with gauze pads, syringes that allegedly have blood evidence on them. these items will supposedly contain roger clemens DNA and PEDs evidence. the evidence is supposedly from the years 2000-2001. this evidence was made public on the day clemens met with congress and the day before mcnamee meets with them, the timing is to perfect from a PR perspective. to me all this does is further discredit mcnamee. he has held onto this evidence for around seven years. this tells me that he has been intent on destroying clemens for years. lets say clemens is telling the truth and mcnamee did inject clemens with b-12. when the injection is finished you stick the syringe in some PEDs and there you go DNA evidence linking clemens to PEDs. or if you dont want to cross contaminate the b-12 and the PEDs you use wipe a used bloody gauze pad on a PEDs tainted syringe and there is a pure sample. i am not a phlebotomist and dont know how easy or difficult it would be to make false evidence. being that mcnamee worked with clemens very personally i am sure it would be very easy to fabricate anything he wanted. whatever the truth may be the only thing clear to me now is that mcnamee has been cooking up this scheme for quite some time now. i think this is all disheartening. a hall of fame pitcher fighting for his honor against a man that clearly has none. whats next? | |
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| newest clemens/mcnamee twists
Posted: 2/7/2008 6:07:22 PM | | PEDS are in every sport. There are even rumors that there maybe some users on the PGA tour. Go figure. And the whole McNamee syringes and a gauze pads are ridiculous. This Roger Clemens thing is becoming a joke. I don't know who believe anymore. | |
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| newest clemens/mcnamee twists
Posted: 2/7/2008 10:45:29 PM | fish says
the evidence is supposedly from the years 2000-2001. this evidence was made public on the day clemens met with congress and the day before mcnamee meets with them, the timing is to perfect from a PR perspective. to me all this does is further discredit mcnamee.
.........this was carefully crafted by Mcn's camp to better position themselves!.....the pressure lies with Clemens as he now runs the risk of perjuring himself in the face of the actual paraphernalia that contains his DNA mixed with the banned substances.....THEN, the onus will be on Clemens to demonstrate that the evidence against him was tainted, and that will not be any easy thing to do........under any circumstances!
he has held onto this evidence for around seven years. this tells me that he has been intent on destroying clemens for years.
............no, this tells us that McN wanted to have something "over" Clemens.......in the event that He and Clemens had some kind of falling-out!.....which for some reason(no doubt it had to do with money issues), they eventually did!!!!.....and thus, McN may have forseen this and took out his own type of 'insurance policy' to gain retribution!
mcnamee did inject clemens with b-12. when the injection is finished you stick the syringe in some PEDs and there you go DNA evidence linking clemens to PEDs. or if you dont want to cross contaminate the b-12 and the PEDs you use wipe a used bloody gauze pad on a PEDs tainted syringe and there is a pure sample.
.........something like this could have been staged, but it is not quite as easy to fabricate...if you inject steroids into somebody.......whatever genetic material is there would have to be located within the hollow-b0re needle......and this tissue (or blood) would have to be picked up when the needle is being withdrawn because that is the only time that no pressure is being applied on the plunger of the syringe...................what little blood is on a gauze would then have to be immersed in physiologic saline (as well as the steroid), thereby dissolving some of the bloody concentrate and then sticking a needle and aspirating minute amounts into the bore.............this is a very tricky thing to do since you can also aspirate tiny gauze fibers that have been drawn out into the solution....and thereby ruin the whole process!
whatever the truth may be the only thing clear to me now is that mcnamee has been cooking up this scheme for quite some time now.
.........the real possibility here is that they both were involved in doing something underhanded!...........either Clemnes was indeed juicing or he perhaps was intermediary, who knows.........but after all this time, what other motives would McN have other than to "get back" at Clemens......for denying him something that he felt he was entitled to??
a hall of fame pitcher fighting for his honor against a man that clearly has none. whats next?
....interesting you should say "hall of fame pitcher" when, in the midst of all this, Clemens himself was presumably quoted as saying...(in response to a reporter's question concerning its effect on him getting into the HOF) that he "didn't give a rats-ass if he never got voted into the hall of fame"...............Hmmmm!....makes one wonder a bit, don't it! | |
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| newest clemens/mcnamee twists
Posted: 2/8/2008 8:47:43 AM | hey sum1annoying, please stop following me around like a disgruntled teenager and copy/paste every sentence i make while attempting (poorly) to discount everything i say. why dont you just make your points contained within your own posts. could you please not fixate upon my posts so much and start doing things without such an obvious alterior motive. one may start to draw conclusions about your personality due to the obsessive qualitys you demonstrate in the forums. when i make posts "typically" they are not directed solely at you. you believe everything you are told from the press and i do not. i demand factual evidence before i draw my conclusions. when i have been presented with all the evidence against clemens i may come to the same conclusion as you did after the first press release. my faith in the press is not as great as yours and i will wait until i form my opinion. so stop your personal vendetta against me and post opinions (without pasting virtually my entire post) and not attacks on everything i post within your area of interest.
it would not be very difficult to fabricate the provided evidence against clemens considering the intimacy of the relationship between clemens and mcnamee. my unbiased opinion is that they are both hiding something. i also feel that mcnamee is a scumbag who has been planning a get rich quick scheme for quite some time. clemens very well may be a liar but mcnamee has already proven to be one | |
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| newest clemens/mcnamee twists
Posted: 2/8/2008 10:47:38 PM | ^
hey sum1annoying, please stop following me around like a disgruntled teenager and copy/paste every sentence i make while attempting (poorly) to discount everything i say.
..........i don't follow pple "around".....i merely try to rebuttle that which is dubiously written!. ...this is the whole point to a debate! ..don't infer this kind of hubris onto yourself....believe me, following you "around" is not worth my (or anybody's ) precious time!
one may start to draw conclusions about your personality due to the obsessive qualitys you demonstrate in the forums.
........i don't think you have an understanding of the words "personality" and "obsessiveness"...if you did you wouldn't be using them so frivolously!........like a 3 year old having a temper-tantrum you have found no way to rebuttle most of what i say so you get defensive and blurt out persecutory delusions as you've demonstrated in this last post of yours........its quite clear that you have "esteem" issues...which is why you can't stand being challenged!
you believe everything you are told from the press and i do not.
.......if you were able to actually comprehend what i've written, you'd see that i don't go along with what the press puts out......the "press" actually reports events, but it is up the viewer or the listener to put it into proper prospective......and not to either counter it or to fully accept it!
i demand factual evidence before i draw my conclusions. when i have been presented with all the evidence against clemens i may come to the same conclusion as you did after the first press release. my faith in the press is not as great as yours and i will wait until i form my opinion.
.........once you have "factual evidence".......it no longer falls in the realm of 'opinions'..then you enter the realm of 'truth'!........and until we have truth (which i doubt the public will ever get)....it will always be a matter of opinion(s), however they may differ!
my unbiased opinion is that they are both hiding something.
.......which is basically what i said in my previous post...which you either didn't read or were not able to comprehend! | |
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| newest clemens/mcnamee twists
Posted: 2/9/2008 10:20:21 AM | | listen sum1annoying it is a fact that you follow people around and copy/paste virtually point for point and attempt to discredit poster after poster. all anyone need to do is look at your post history (right hand side of post under pic click on history). i am not the only one you follow around like a misfit puppy. i would like for you to stop addressing me personally, is that too much for to ask? make your posts without addressing them directly at me, OK. whats this thread about? i am all about the debate but you are the one who demands the personal inclusion. address your obsession and dont let it rule your personality, you frivolous man. | |
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| newest clemens/mcnamee twists
Posted: 2/9/2008 5:02:59 PM | it looks like on wenesday the 13th of february the congressional hearing on baseballs PEDs use will probably achieve its pinnacle of interest. it will resemble the previous hearings that recieved a great deal of public attention when mcguire and palmeiro made their memorable performances. although it has not been verified it is believed that it will be similiar in presentation. clemens, pettite, knobloch, macnamee and radomski all sitting at a table facing congress. apparently radomski has finished his obligations to the feds within their approvals. he recieved a 5 year probation sentence after pleading guilty to steroid distribution and money laundering, which is a light sentence. and lets not forget people that americas most credible witness is being pressured by the feds to provide information in order to reduce or completely avoid jail time. what do you think most people would do in that situation?
i find it hard to believe that the goverment has not been able to verify whether or not the materials surrendered by macnamee concerning clemens are credible or have not been substantiated or discounted. the feds have had the materials in their possesion for around a month. they could not figure this out by now? rogers lawyer hardin said clemens would submit to a DNA sample for comparison if requested by a proper government agency.
also in macnamees most recent admission he states that rogers wife has also used HGH in order to prepare herself for a magazine cover in 2003. so whats next from macnamee? what other evidance/information is he holding on to. stay tuned because i am sure there is more.
now that the twenty million dollar mitchell report has had a chance to sink i am realizing it has little legal value to it. it should be renamed the clemens/yankees report. nine pages of the report are dedicated to clemens and its clear to me that the one time red sox executive george dubya mitchell did not preform his duty unbiasedly. more past and present yankees were named by the report than of any other organization. coincedance? you be the judge.
please feel free to analyze this post word for word and refute all that i have said. could any respondents please paste my words within your posts because i nor anyone else who reads this is smart enough to scroll upwards or possess any memory abilities. thanks for your cooperation | |
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| newest clemens/mcnamee twists
Posted: 2/12/2008 12:07:58 PM | | Well its good to see that John Rocker is back in the news. Great to hear his two cents on the steriod problem. | |
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| newest clemens/mcnamee twists
Posted: 2/12/2008 3:57:08 PM | now pettitte, knoblauch and radomski have been excused from the congressional hearing on wenesday. radomski has supposedly been excused because he does not have any first hand knowledge of clemens. knoblauch has been excused because his knowledge is peripheral? i have heard a few different things as to pettittes absence. i heard he has provided conflicting testimony. i also heard he requested to not be there because of his close friendship with clemens. i also heard it had something to do with the thursday start of spring training and that he wanted to prepare. in a official release by congress it was worded that there (knob and pettitte) testimony is not needed. so now its a showdown pitting clemens against macnamee. there is so much different speculation going around and the possibilites seem endless at this point. the most likely outcome of all of this is that not much will happen. i will be tuned in on wenesday, i personally can not wait.
rocker what a worm this guy is. on a radio program he stated that he flunked a drug test and the commisioner brushed it under the carpet and actually had professionals come and teach them how to safely take steroids and how to pass screenings sucessfully. this is all a cry for attention in my opinion. first of all steroids were not illegal until 2004. MLB was obligated to the confidentiality of the result and to use the information to develop a treatment and education program for rocker. discipline was not a option at the time. the rocker is crying foul when there was none comitted. he is just looking for attention like always. as anyone who knows this mans history is aware there is no limit to the things that will pour out of this mans mouth. in my opinion this is a non issue because the source is an idiot. | |
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