| Beggars
Posted: 12/26/2007 9:57:07 AM | ^^^^^^^^ that has nothing to do with my question, Why are the authorities not doing something about it. All relevant I believe.We all know the whys and wherefores, it does not make it OK.
I would say that those types are not beggars but scroungers making life a lot more difficult for the homeless.
I am off out to dinner now, Foxy I hope the grub is good again lol. it usually is. | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/26/2007 9:57:25 AM | Msg 125
You say that the beggars dont want to stay in this unsafe shelter because of the crack and heroin dealing going on around them. This is fair enough but it doesnt take a genius to work out that a lot of beggars are in the situation they are in because of their dependency to drugs such as the aforementioned substances.They may not want to sleep in them,but im sure they are happy to visit so that they can use some of their scrounged money to pay for a bag of brown. Also the entire spectrum of issues surrounding the beggars of the UK,and the help and options they have is surely not centred around one shelter in Aldgate?(I hope i am not insulting your intelligence now John!)
There may be a few genuine,sad tales of how a person got into the situation they are in, but it is no wonder that people do not want to give their money to beggars when im betting a hefty portion of them only have themselves to blame for getting into such a mess. And yes,its the geniune ones I feel sorry for,but im afraid that they are completely invisible to your average commuter in a rush to get to work etc
As people have said before we all give to beggars in some way. I pay my taxes and I am sure that that our collective contributions somewhere down the line are given back to registered charities and support organisations in the form of grants from our government.
So we all give. Giving handouts is just something I dont want to do anymore,and its my choice and im happy with it. Some want to give,some dont..............theres nowt more that can be said.....................(surely?) | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/26/2007 10:07:51 AM |
You say that the beggars dont want to stay in these unsafe shelters because of the crack and heroin dealing going on around them. This is fair enough but it doesnt take a genius to work out that a lot of beggars are in the situation they are in because of their dependency to drugs such as the aforementioned substances. Also the entire spectrum of issues surrounding the beggars of the UK,and the help and options they have is surely not centred around one shelter in Aldgate?(I hope i am not insulting your intelligence now John!)
I gave the Aldgate shelter as an example because it is one that I have seen with my own two eyes, I've been inside of it and so speak from experience. From what I'm aware most of the other shelters - if not all - in London are pretty much of a the same although I haven't taken the time to visit them.
The issue with drugs and alcohol dependency is a bit like the chicken and the egg argument. Some people become homeless because of their addictions whilst others become addicted because of using substances to blot out the pain of their predicament.
There may be a few genuine,sad tales of how a person got into the situation they are in, but it is no wonder that people do not want to give their money to beggars when im betting a hefty portion of them only have themselves to blame for getting into such a mess.
A 'hefty portion' is pure conjecture on your part. People become homeless for all kinds of reasons that are no fault of their own. Home repossessions due to being made redundant, ex military types who can't cope with being on civvy street, children who have been through the conveyor belt of abuse of the care system...
The addictions come later. So it is foolish to look at a drunken vagrant and automatically assume that is the reason he is on the streets. Addiction on the streets is as much of a symptom of homelessness as it is a cause. | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/26/2007 10:12:05 AM | Pseudo
The prostitutes have the top floor. The pimps might be able to have a room there for you aswell if you're desperate enough or they get you hooked on the drugs
You were saying there might be a room for me personally, which is very insulting. That is why i said that was not very dignified.
But the truth, which is something you seem more comfortable being blinkered to x
Sorry. I am not going to fall for every sob story that i read or hear about. I make my own mind up. Thank you.
You were saying that people should accept to live in those places otherwise they were 'choosing to be homeless', which is why I needed to give you the truth so harshly, sorry for any offence caused x
You feel the need to tell me the truth so harshly? Tell me, Who Are You? | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/26/2007 10:23:05 AM | You were saying there might be a room for me personally, which is very insulting. That is why i said that was not very dignified.
You were saying that people should accept to live in those places otherwise they were 'choosing to be homeless', which is why I needed to give you the truth so harshly, sorry for any offence caused x | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/26/2007 10:25:28 AM |
The addictions come later. So it is foolish to look at a drunken vagrant and automatically assume that is the reason he is on the streets. Addiction on the streets is as much of a symptom of homelessness as it is a cause.
This is true,but it is not the way people think. People are blinded by stereotypes and do not look at the bigger picture. I include myself in thinking this way sometimes, but i can appreciate that addiction is often something that comes after the person is left on the streets with nothing. I can also appreciate that this is perhaps the main factor in them not making the right moves to get off the streets...............in essence,the addiction is probably the only thing they have got to focus and concentrate on whilst they live their horrible lives.Either way if a person has an addiction before or after being made homeless,theres still a very good chance that we are giving our money to feed a habit,hence the negative attitudes people have.
I would hate to think that I could end up in that situation.........to me they are a horrible symbol of what your life could end up like if you make bad decisions perhaps twinned with bad luck,but at the same time,they make me more determined not to fcuk up. | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/26/2007 10:35:00 AM | | It's also important to remember that the majority of people have support networks should they ever fvck up in life. I have enough family and friends to have somewhere to go if I became insolvent but there are people out there who don't and, sadly, it's usually always the ones who have spent most of their formative years being let down by family and/or the system who find themselves in the unenviable position of being a homeless addict. The most vulnerable position anyone could possibly find themselves in, the scrap-heap of society that is reinforced by the stereotypes that are mentioned and ignorant and prejudiced views. | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/26/2007 11:16:58 AM |
I have enough family and friends to have somewhere to go if I became insolvent
And
I gave the Aldgate shelter as an example because it is one that I have seen with my own two eyes, I've been inside of it and so speak from experience
Does not add up.
This is an example of why i dont fall for any sob story.
However i do agree that people become homeless for many many reasons and for me it is also because of their weakness. | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/26/2007 5:39:50 PM | msg 132 Insolvent does not come into it, it is a state of mind. OK you have seen these places with your own eyes, Big Fookin deal I have lived them. Insulting peoples intelligence does not get you anywhere.
Stop looking for an argument and start looking at reality. Stop forcing your opinion on every one else.
As I have said everyones opinion counts accept it and respect it, dont force yours. because I believe you know nothing, and if you agree with what you see then that makes you a sad person.
Homeless beggars are not a nescesary comodity. They can be contolled and dealt with no problem. | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/26/2007 5:46:30 PM |
Homeless beggars are not a nescesary comodity. They can be contolled and dealt with no problem
Can you elaborate on this? How would you "control and deal" with them? | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/26/2007 6:02:45 PM | Me myself, hard one foxy. The authorities can and should control this, simply by putting more effort into the problem. I believe it is ignored a lot. ie- more hostel space druggies and alki's into the respective places that can help them not just give them a place to sleep. Control may be a strong word. but all these people need help not just feeding, address their problems help them to sort it all out. I accept there will always be some who dont make it. But the true homeless beggars as we are calling them are being overrun by the druggies etc. two seperate types of people. There are surley people trained to deal with this problem. There definatly is for druggies and alki's if they want it. I am not, and I am now too tired, and I dont mean ready for bed , I have done my bit and need to take care of myself now.
The only alternative that I see id to just leave these people in the street and ignore them. Where does that get anyone? | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 137 | |
| Beggars
Posted: 12/26/2007 6:21:18 PM | | Its not that, a lot of them are really beyond help. I've been involved with the Salvation Army hostels and there are guys there who are just stuck in a downward spiral and have been for years. They go through the process and the the detox and then back on the drugs first chance they get. A guy I speak to a lot did 27 years living rough. As well as being treated for long term liver damage he has mental problems as well. At the moment he is trying for a place in assisted accomodation because he really doesnt know how to cope with his own place. And he is one of the guys who are trying. I'd say 10% are genuine down on their luck cases. And then its about 45% apiece who are either long term alchohol related homeless or drug users needing rehab. | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/27/2007 12:52:49 AM | ^^^^^^^ I believe that is what I have said too without the percentages. You mention someone who can not manage alone, after being helped, he is in his own place so he must be getting help still. Therefore why is he begging ? if it is for drug money then that is the main reason I will not give. So he screws it up for the genuine ones, and there are a lot like him.
At the end of the day if his kind are getting help and abusing it, then why is it the so called genuine ones can not recieve the same help needed.Why waste it all on those who do not want to help themselves.
Then we have the thing that taking and buying theses drugs is illegal. So why isnt something being done there? If I had them in my possession or purchased them, and used them, I would be arrested why is he allowed to walk about and beg ? After being in detox he is aware of what the first drink or the drugs will do to him. He makes that choice it is because he wants too its the easy way out. If he has a mental disorder then he should be in a secure place, and not allowed to roam because he is a danger to himself and the public alike.
May sound hard, but thats life, and not being a begger or homeless can be hard at times but we all try to deal with it. How many times is someone going to jump into a lake knowing they can not swim, and expect me to pull them out? I May once MAYBE,
When I was in the Navy we where taught that if a ship went down and the guy at your side could not swim, then swim away from him and leave him, swimming lessons where always available. So the adage "Sink or Swim" comes to mind. Now all you little fishes what ya gonna do?   | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/27/2007 2:59:33 AM | Food for thought here......lets not forget many addicts/alcoholics develop severe mental problems due to their addictions !! Alcoholism/Addictions in part are a mental obsession as well as a physical allergy so surely the onus is on the Government under Mental Health and not the conscience of Joe Public ?
Unfortunately this problem is as old as the hills and it will probably keep being swept under the carpet and ignored even in my lifetime!!
As for "Shelters" you will generally find the genuine ones down on their luck tend to beg their £2.50 and get their head down for the night.........people in addiction would see that £2.50 as a waste and use it towards their next bag of gear/booze and opt for a nite roughing it (not all though) depending on how much cash they have managed to beg!!
Ive got a few mates that work in these shelters (and a few mates that reside as guests)and believe me they are actually "policed" quite well and generally operate a "No using" policy on the premises unless they are in a "wet house" !! You can be off your face when you walk in or "gouching" not a problem but they dont suffer fools gladly once on their premises for the protection of all their "guests" !! However as in prisons ways will always be sought !! | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/27/2007 3:26:52 AM | So you see a beggar or the street. Or some one approaches asking for money. You want to help them if they are in "genuine need", but desire to keep your money if its just a "try on".
How do you decide to give or not? Any useful tips? | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/27/2007 4:47:56 AM | So you see a beggar or the street. Or some one approaches asking for money. You want to help them if they are in "genuine need", but desire to keep your money if its just a "try on".
How do you decide to give or not? Any useful tips?
Well.. i bend down and smell them... If theres any hint of alcohol... i dont give
I ask to see their arms.. If there is any sign of needle activity... Again i dont give... Any sign of new shoes... i dont give.
And i will sit down and talk to them, like a phsycologist would.
I am learning a lot from all these replies you see.. | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/27/2007 11:15:33 AM | I cant believe how self centred racist comments are allowed on this board. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Why dont you give up some of your time to help out with soup runs with the local salvation army and then tell me the clients there are low lifes. You have no idea, as i said before none of us are immune to falling on bad times, no one knows whats round the corner.
And as for people coming from overseas and finding themselves homeless, maybe their own country has forced them out for whatever reason. If i suddenly found this country in a war torn state and my children were threatened with disease and starvation due to the powers that be declaring the are a war zone id do everything i could to get them out of danger and im sure you would too.
Honestly this thread makes me sick. Msg 141 dont bend down too close you might get kicked in your pretty little head one day. | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/27/2007 11:29:10 AM |
Msg 141 dont bend down too close you might get kicked in your pretty little head one day.
Thank you for the advice.
But i dont usually get too close as the smell offends me 
Why dont you give up some of your time to help out with soup runs
I have been practising my soup runs but everytime i get to where i am going to, the soup has already gone... can somebody tell me how to run without spilling it?
Edit Msg 144
I'm someone who actually gives a fvck I guess. I'm loving the irony of you feeling that if a homeless person doesn't want to stay in the drug-riddled shelter they are 'choosing to be homeless' but when suggested that you should spend a night there it's 'insulting'.
Of course its insulting. They are not for people with landrover and own her own house and a business to run.
Who do YOU think you are?
Read above.
Are they less human than the rest of us or something?
No. They are human the same as the rest of us. | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/27/2007 11:38:13 AM |
You feel the need to tell me the truth so harshly? Tell me, Who Are You?
I'm someone who actually gives a fvck I guess. I'm loving the irony of you feeling that if a homeless person doesn't want to stay in the drug-riddled shelter they are 'choosing to be homeless' but when suggested that you should spend a night there it's 'insulting'.
Who do YOU think you are? 
Are they less human than the rest of us or something? | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/27/2007 3:39:54 PM |
I cant believe how self centred racist comments are allowed on this board.
Report them, instead of whining about them.
And as for people coming from overseas and finding themselves homeless, maybe their own country has forced them out for whatever reason.
I cannot find any evidence of any EU country which is currently forcing its citizens to leave. In fact, Poland is actively encouraging its citizens to return there.
If i suddenly found this country in a war torn state and my children were threatened with disease and starvation due to the powers that be declaring the are a war zone id do everything i could to get them out of danger and im sure you would too.
Yes, I would, but I'd make sure they were offered the chance to return once the crisis had ended. There is nothing to prevent displaced EU persons from returning to their own country after such a calamity.
To those of you who claim to care about the homeless, do you really think that giving them money in the street will actually help them? It will help them get through the next night in an alcohol or drug-induced daze, but it won't place a roof above their heads unless you give them a mortgage and a job to furnish it.
How about offering them a permanent room in your own house?
The mentally ill should have more government assistance. Before you all shout that the Tories closed the hospitals, I'll point out that Labour didn't build new ones these past ten years.
And to those who wish to use quotation marks, make sure that the quoted words actually appeared...
HTH | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/28/2007 2:20:04 AM | Well I have said my piece, but I just want to share this with all.
I went shopping to the sales yesterday with friends. We decided to have fish and chips while sitting on a bench in the open market.
A person came up to us and asked for money ( he did not appear drunk) dirty and scruffy yes! I offered to buy him fish and chips, (you see I allowed my mind to absorb all this stuff written on these posts) He looked at me and said "are you for real? I want money" No prizes for guessing what I thought and said. It was sortta like :-
"Sex N Travel "
Now all those who want to give please feel free, all those who dont wish to give Well thats up to you too. "I will never offer/give again" Kinda proved my point. To the person/s throwing insults at my choice, I suggest you read my posts properly, I have been there and back, You Have Not. The doo gooders and the PC brigade are doing a lot of damage to society. FACT | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/28/2007 4:04:58 AM | I do not give money to beggers, and I dont even buy the big issue if im totally honest.
Sorry but I am a working mortgage tied single mother - and its hard enough to keep me and my 2 children, let alone dish out £1 here there and every where.
I give to charity if I see someone with a collection tin (as my children usually want to), but some beggers can manke you feel intimidated.
I pay my taxes, let the government sort them out (they seem to sort all the single mothers and imigrants out).
I watched a TV programme once on some (not all) beggers who beg, make hundreds in a day, then go round the corner, get in thier car and drive home to thier warm house!! | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/28/2007 6:02:26 AM |
The doo gooders and the PC brigade are doing a lot of damage to society. FACT
Could you elaborate on this please? And whilst you are at it could you outlay what you believe constitutes a civilised society?
To the person/s throwing insults at my choice, I suggest you read my posts properly, I have been there and back, You Have Not.
As I have said earlier it is someone's personal perogative as to whether they give anything or not. But there's no need to form opinions on sloppy generalisations or ill-informed prejudices. Moreover, having 'not been there' doesn't disqualify anybody from an opinion. Especially as we only have your say-so that you've been there yourself. | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/28/2007 7:45:43 AM | gave some scottish beggar some money once, suggested he might want to spend the money on getting some big issues to sell the next day, but this was apparently too much like hard work, sort of standing around is that hard.....
will buy the big issue and usually pay a bit more than the asking price....
someone begging will get not a lot, not as if beggars not heard of the big issue :) | |
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| Beggars
Posted: 12/28/2007 8:18:44 AM | ^^^^^^^ 149Yes I could elaborate on that statement, but that would be another thread, if you wish to start one please go ahead. I do not remember mentioning a civilised society, surely that too is another thread.
I do not remember mentioning your name either, but as you so rightly point out, we are all allowed our opinions here, and that does include me.
Last of all I do not go around insinuating that someone is a liar, and I do take offence to that, I will keep my opinion about that to myself for now.It is just a shame that some people cannot debate without getting personal and trying to argue.We can all make assumtions, if the cap fits!! I can prove all I have written.
OT
I stand by what I have said and will not give. Thats my personal perogative. | |
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