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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 4:32:30 PM |
Now lets not be hasty, Dad never said that. Dad just wants to complain, its not like he really wants the kids. He just wants to complain about the cost of them. Whew that was a close one for Dad... Haha..Dad is being realistic here. He is going to skip the whole custody battle and get straight to the child support as it is what it will come to eventually!! 95% of custody cases are decided in favour of the mother even if they dont have the financial means. I believe this man is well off because he picks and chooses his battle well. The dad here is not complaining. He seeks fairness and justice. 99% of dads want their kids. They just dont want the B/S and greed from the ex that comes with it. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 4:42:35 PM |
Dad just wants to complain, its not like he really wants the kids. Who are you talking about? The guy mentioned in the OP? He's not even a father yet. What's he complaining about? All he's doing so far is covering his ass.
If you're talking men in general... think again. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 4:59:40 PM | "Who are you talking about? The guy mentioned in the OP? He's not even a father yet. What's he complaining about? All he's doing so far is covering his ass.
If you're talking men in general... think again."
Exactly he's already complaining and he doesn't even have kids. So why have them? As far as men in general, I live in Texas and their not complaining, so I don't have to think again. The poster above you is female and gay so ah probably not gonna have kids. | |
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naeco
| Joined: 12/16/2007 Msg: 80 | |
| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 5:02:57 PM | | Child support is to benefit the kids. If you are worried about putting a limit on how much you have to give your kids, you really shouldn't be having any to begin with. Just because you may divorce your wife some day doesn't mean the kids should have to suffer financially. A real man will fight for custody of his kids, anyway - I've got full custody of my son. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 5:58:31 PM | "So far the ex hasn't pushed for the new amount according to the new tables, but occasionally she lets me know that she still holds the club."
You hit the nail on the head! A prenup is really about trying to make a level playing field. Without a prenup, it is too easy for one party (that earns less and has less to lose) to hold the other for ransom. Both parties are not forced to work out problems on a level playing field. My ex looked me straight in the face and told me that if I didn't like what she was doing to "just get a divorce and lose your ..." How do you work out your issues that way?
I've also seen the argument here that they should not be marrying because the man is requiring a prenup. It is a good tool to plan and bring up issues before marriage. If you want 5 kids and your partner wants only 1 this will be a big problem in the future. Don't take the "they will change their mind attitude." Both parties are forced to sit down and calmly look at what they want or don't want in life. Honestly, I would think that this a great idea if both want children. That way if things ever do go down the wrong path it is already decided, and there is less fighting. How is that not better for the children?
Once divorce mode kicks in it's too late to think about these things rationally.
Too many people live in the "all it takes is love" mentality. I'm sorry, but there is much more to it. Movies and TV make you think otherwise, but that's why they're just movies and TV shows.
Two pieces of advice given to me by lawyers... 1) If you aren't going to have children, do NOT get married. There is no reason to get legally married.
2) If you are forced to get a divorce, do your best to keep the lawyers and friends out of it. Work it out between the two of you. If you can't then you get a lawyer and it's an all out fight! - i.e. Nobody but the lawyers win!
Regards, Ellison24333 | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 6:14:08 PM |
Exactly he's already complaining and he doesn't even have kids. Complaining about what? He was curious as to whether a Pre-Nup would be sufficient for determining child support. His fiancee obviously agreed to those terms so it doesn't sound like she has a problem with it. However, that sort of agreement will not hold up in court if she chooses to contest it. He's not complaining about anything, he's simply looking for advice.
As far as men in general, I live in Texas and their not complaining, so I don't have to think again. Not complaining about what? First you're talking about complaining that doesn't exist, and then you're yammering about the non-existence of complaining that was never mentioned. What in the Samsquanch are you talking about?
The poster above you is female and gay so ah probably not gonna have kids. What that has to do with anything is beyond me. Having children or not has no bearing on whether a person can recognize that these kinds of things are happening. I don't have to be a soldier to know there's a war going on in Afghanistan. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 6:20:01 PM | | Well, if he expects his children to live well on $2500 a month, I take it the love of his life, has one fine job herself. If she's raking in $300k too then $2500 would be more than enough - if she's not, he should find someone else to birth his children because the judge is going to go to town all over him. He should find a lawyer that will tell him the truth and not just agree to him because it's unlikely that his lawyer will find hims/herelf responsible for any shortcomings in lifestyle. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 6:55:38 PM | I read all of the posts until page 3 where I got so spittin' mad, I have to put in my 2 cents. I have 4 children. My child support for all of them didn't even come to $800! I don't know where you all get your figures and where you see all these "single moms living off their child support!" I couldn't even pay a house payment with mine. If a single mother chooses to live within her means (child support and work from home income) then isn't that better than the kids being raised by childcare or a nanny? When did working with kids become the "only" way to do it? OP-Your friend needs an attorny. Child support in pre-nups won't hold. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 9:06:36 PM |
$800! I don't know where you all get your figures and where you see all these "single moms living off their child support!" I couldn't even pay a house payment with mine.
Well it seems you and my ex both married below their income stream. I would love to see $800 per month...or even $400...or even $200..
To date with two children I have not seen a dime........and truthfully..........I do not want a thing from her....I am able to pay and cover all cost myself.....
But things change...yet remain the same.
But then most...or the majority of custodial fathers do not see...or even desire cs.
But I thought the idea of cs was not to buy a house? It was not to be a tool or a means to improve your lifestyle! It was to go to the children. Are you suggesting that is what you expect from your cs? But I will agree that $800 does seem a little light. Why not state what you earn and what your ex earns. And discuss the housing and standard of living in both homes. this way people can get a better understanding of the needs and best interest of the children. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 9:16:38 PM | Good on your friend for bringing up the issue before he gets married. Money is a big factor in a realtionship. It needs to be discussed. I didn't used to agree with a prenup, but I feel differently now. My ex and I had no financial squabbles when we parted. We figured out what seemed fair and it works for us. He has custody because it works best for our daughter that way. I did hear a woman say, "I took him for everything he's got." It surprised me. I didn't expect if from her. It changed how I felt about her too. With the money he has it'd be a wise investment to get some legal counsel with it. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 9:18:27 PM | Well, my dear, I was a stay at home mother (ie: no income). He is a professional making about $50k per year. My point wasn't that CS should cover a house payment. My point was that CS WOULDN'T cover a house payment let alone all the things kids need. So, therefore, I CAN'T LIVE OFF IT! 4 kids=$400/mth food, $100/mth diapers/wipes/OTC meds, $100/mth OOP for medical care, then you have the utilites, rent, gas, and so forth. I know, I know. GO to WORK! Any idea how much daycare costs for 3 kids under 3 (1 with special needs?) There is no job that would pay enough for my kids' care. I wasn't looking to improve my lifestyle, just keep my kids fed, clothed, and sheltered. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 9:27:19 PM | starfun..you have no idea what you are talking about...every single woman i know has not been receiving support on a regular basis...the dad's have free access but don't see them..they all work,they all put more then 100% of their money and their time into the kids..sure there are women who take advantage just as men do..and believe me the women do not get everything or more then what's fair..perhaps the odd one does but i know many many single parents...you're just going by heresay,...you haven't even had any children..as for these men who say they love their kids?well there are a few that i know of..even a couple of them have custody which i think is great..but guess what?..the wife isn't paying any support..and i think the guy's crazy for not going after her for it.
the other 2 i know do receive support..and guess what the wives pay on time and don't begrudge the amount they have to pay as long as the kids are being properly provided for....usually the so called rich are self employed and hide half their income anyway.
if the kids are used to living in a substantially higher life style,why should they have to suffer?..and as for the one with custody spending the money on themselves?in most cases that's a lot of bs..the problem with a lot of dads is they use this as an excuse not to pay to spite the wife with little or no consideration for the welfare of the kids.
some dads are excellent...and my hats are off to them..but i find most aren't and that's speaking from experience not heresay. | |
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Oscat
| Joined: 8/23/2007 Msg: 89 | |
| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 9:39:09 PM | HD321: Well, if you think and (now know for sure) that its too hard ffinancially or you to do it on $800/month, you can always give him custody of the kids! Why isnt that an option?
I dont understand why you feel you can do a better job with someone else's money!! Im sure if you offered him custody, he'll NOT bother you for CS. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 9:47:23 PM | | So because one parent won't support their children, the other needs to give up custody? Or because the custodial "Dad" doesn't demand CS, he's a better parent? That someone else is half responsible for those lives. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 9:54:01 PM | Wow.. weezygirl
some dads are excellent...but i find most aren't and that's speaking from experience not heresay
What a load of B/S. Honey, its the other way round. Most dads are excellent. Its most of us women that are just plain spiteful and revengeful (including you and me)! Speaking from experience!!! Hun..how many men have you married to "get this experience"?
,...you haven't even had any children Well answered by "That Guy Him" ...
I don't have to be a soldier to know there's a war going on in Afghanistan. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 12/31/2007 10:42:18 PM | Oscat, I suggest that you talk to a laywer, not just on HOW MUCH money your friend would have to pay in child support, but HOW THE MONEY IS USED. It appears that this issue is glossed over, but Wikipedia claims that:
In the United States, 10 states (Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Indiana, Louisiana, Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oregon, and Washington) allow courts to demand an accounting on expenses and spending from custodial parents. Additionally, Alabama courts have authorized such accounting under certain specific circumstances. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_support
While Wikipedia is not a site that claims to be perfectly accurate, it does appear that this is an issue that can be raised. In other states, the courts simply don't want to get involved, and say it is up to the mother (assuming she has the kids) on how the money is used. But unless there is a specific statute that states that the mother can use the money on anything, even on herself, it would mean that the matter is open to agreement between the 2 parties.
That could mean that a written agreement, prior to the marriage, could stipulate how the money should be spent, and that the mother agrees to keep all receipts for purchases over $5, and you get given receipts for most things nowadays anyway, so this should not be a problem, and that she agrees to have her spending audited, at the expense of the father (assuming that he's paying for them).
Even if the courts and/or her lawyer want to challenge this, he has a very good case. Child support in Canada is covered by the Federal Child Support Guidelines, which are put in place to follow the following Objectives:
1. The objectives of these Guidelines are (a) to establish a fair standard of support for children that ensures that they continue to benefit from the financial means of both spouses after separation; (b) to reduce conflict and tension between spouses by making the calculation of child support orders more objective; (c) to improve the efficiency of the legal process by giving courts and spouses guidance in setting the levels of child support orders and encouraging settlement; and (d) to ensure consistent treatment of spouses and children who are in similar circumstances. http://www.canlii.com/ca/regu/sor97-175/sec1.html
I refer you to:
Reducing Conflict Over Child Support Reduce the Hostility over Money ... Understand that the residential parent has some base costs for housing, electricity, etc., that must be paid even if the child spends time with the non-residential parent. ... If you are on the receiving end of the payments, it is helpful to provide a simple accounting of how the support money is spent on a quarterly basis. This is not to say that you need to submit a detailed down to the last penny accounting of the support payment, but you can do a lot to demonstrate to the paying parent that the money is being used for the child or children rather than for yourself. ... If the support check does not arrive, don't use this as an excuse to deny visitation. Your anger and resentment are understandable, but using your child as a tool to punish the other parent is also unacceptable. Denying visitation punishes the child more than the other parent, and can bring about further court action. ... Share money limitations with your children but not your anxiety and worry. Kids need to understand why they can't eat out as often, but they don't need to share your stress. ... Don't try to assuage guilt by spending money, buying presents, and otherwise indulging your child to make up for the divorce or the time you are away from each other. Also, don't give your child things that you know the other parent can't afford. Playing the part of a "Disneyland Dad" or a "Merry Mom" not only encourages a child to build unrealistic expectations, but also can lead to manipulative behavior. Playing one parent off against the other is not a positive situation for the parents or the child. If there is something special that your child would like to have, plan with your co-parent about how or whether that particular purchase can be made. Sometimes proportional sharing of the costs is a fair way to provide for special needs or wants. ... The paying parent may want to pay for some expenses directly rather than pass the money through the other parent. This sometimes helps remove some of the distrust about money and helps overcome the feeling that the money is being used by the other parent for his or her personal benefit. Make sure that the other parent is agreeable to this and that he or she understands and agrees with any such change in normal child support procedures in writing. http://ohioline.osu.edu/flm99/fs12.html
As you can see, there is a good case to be made that such a written agreement would be upheld by the court, as it would achieve the objectives of the Federal Child Support Guidelines.
I also refer you to the following parts of the Federal Child Support Guidelines, which may be of use:
7. (1) In a child support order the court may, on either spouse’s request, provide for an amount to cover all or any portion of the following expenses, which expenses may be estimated, taking into account the necessity of the expense in relation to the child’s best interests and the reasonableness of the expense in relation to the means of the spouses and those of the child and to the family’s spending pattern prior to the separation: (3) In determining the amount of an expense referred to in subsection (1), the court must take into account any subsidies, benefits or income tax deductions or credits relating to the expense, and any eligibility to claim a subsidy, benefit or income tax deduction or credit relating to the expense. ... 13. A child support order must include the following information: (e) the particulars of any expense described in subsection 7(1), the child to whom the expense relates, and the amount of the expense or, where that amount cannot be determined, the proportion to be paid in relation to the expense; and ... 19. (1) The court may impute such amount of income to a spouse as it considers appropriate in the circumstances, which circumstances include the following: (a) the spouse is intentionally under-employed or unemployed, other than where the under-employment or unemployment is required by the needs of a child of the marriage or any child under the age of majority or by the reasonable educational or health needs of the spouse; http://www.canlii.com/ca/regu/sor97-175/
I'm guessing here, but it sounds to me that: Section 7 (3) could be used to make a case that the father would be entitled to pay less if any of the children are eligible for a scholarship. Section 13 (e) could be used to make a case that the mother would have to account for any unusually large purchases. Section 19 (1) (a) could be used to make a case that if she is a stay-at-home mom, then the father would only have to pay for reasonable usage of the consumption of food, utilities bills, and car costs for the mother, and she might have to provide some proof that she is at home looking after them. If he suspects that she is going out and leaving the children on their own, he could hire a Private Investigator, and show that she is not entitled to any money that might be used to support herself. Section 19 (1) (a) could also be used to make a case that if the kids are in school, then she has to get herself a quality-paying job, and it will not be acceptable for her to work as a cashier in a supermarket, unless she hasn't got a High School Diploma. But even then, he can make a case that she can get a GED, and get a good-paying job.
It seems to me that Canadian Law has left enough loopholes open for a good lawyer to make sure that all of the money goes on the kids, that she only spends a reasonable amount of money on them, and that the rest goes for schools, and for a trust fund for college. That would have to be negotiated in a combination of the pre-nup and a court case, when the child support payments are decided. But there is a lot of room to work with. Enough to ensure that although he might pay a lot, that it goes on the kids, and in the right ways. He can even pay some of it direct, like making rent/mortage payments direct to the landlord/bank, paying the school fees to the school, and asking for the medical expenses to be billed to him directly. A good mother will appreciate that a significant part of the financial burden is taken off her hands. A bad one will have no room to manoeuvre.
Also, in order to avoid the problem of if they choose to get married in a church, and they object to the pre-nup, might I suggest that the pre-nup does not discuss divorce, but rather financial arrangements that would apply to any period from the wedding onwards, including the marriage? That way, any limits on the alimony would also put restrictions on her spending too much within the marriage, and over-spending on the kids too, with a restriction that he can make a "gift" to her, such as jewellery or the like, if it would be welcomed and appreciated.
I'm not sure if any of this would help. But if it does, then great. If not, at least you checked out the possibility. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 1/1/2008 12:24:47 AM |
It seems to me that Canadian Law has left enough loopholes open for a good lawyer to make sure that all of the money goes on the kids, that she only spends a reasonable amount of money on them, and that the rest goes for schools, and for a trust fund for college. It'd be easier for him to just maintain custody than to waste his time trying to go through all that. Child support amounts might not be able to be decided in a Pre-Nup, but I don't think there's anything that discludes arranging custody. I mean hell... look at the Canadian system. Pages and pages of law regarding the distribution of funds for child support and everything, but show me one single mandate on laws governing actual custody. There are none. It's all left up to judges. If the Pre-Nup determines that he will remain primary caregiver of the children, the whole concern of him being bent over backwards for child support will no longer be an issue. If he pays her the $2,500/month while still being primary himself, he'll be doing more than is already required as I don't recall any custodial parents being ordered to pay support.
Also, I think a lot of people are missing the point that these people haven't broken up, and it may never happen. Why people are so worried about this dude covering his ass is beyond me. Look at all the vindictive sorts that have already exposed their claws just at the mere mention of this guy being concerned... how can you blame him for trying to protect himself? How does he know the woman he's about to marry isn't the same sort of vindictive person? All of us who have been screwed over in a divorce never thought our exes would have ever done that to us, but they did. I say good on him for not being stupid like us. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 1/1/2008 12:37:18 AM |
If the Pre-Nup determines that he will remain primary caregiver of the children, the whole concern of him being bent over backwards for child support will no longer be an issue. Not possible to do, and no decent lawyer would allow it. The children are not born yet, the parenting skills and involvement hasn't been demonstrated yet... therefore it is impossible to determine at this point what the best interests of the child would be. That's the goal the judiciary will attempt to balance if, as you remind us, these not yet married people do actually marry, have children and divorce.
Although it can't be formally agreed to now, discussions are very useful to get a sense for your partner. It has been my experience, and a number of other people who have posted in this thread... that who people are on the way in is not who you are dealing with on the way out. Pre-nups are useful... but you can't predetermine issues related to children. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 1/1/2008 5:04:57 AM |
I told him that in North America (unlike United Kingdom), there is no maximum child support hence people pay as much as $5000/month for one child depending on their income. Anyway does this make any sense? What normal child needs $5000/month? I read of a dad who paid such ridiculous amounts (average of $6250) for 13 years and therefore felt justified not leaving anything for this kid in his will. He had 3 other kids, btw! I have no idea what the laws are in Canada or England, BUT in the USA.....which is, by the way part of North America; Child Support is calculated NOT by what "a normal child NEEDS", but by the kind of LIFESTYLE the child would have had if the marriage had stayed in tact.
What bothers me is NOT that the man is attempting to do some "pre-planning", but that I see an attitude of.....buying and selling ...CHILDREN. How much are they WORTH? I have absolutely NOTHING against pre-nuptial agreements, in fact...they're the smart thing to do.....particularly if one's income far exceeds the other's. HOWEVER, in such cases, I have to say that children are best left OUT of such business arrangements all together. Meaning....HAVE NONE! Children need stability.....not "planned failures"...no matter how orderly, logical and legally they're done. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 1/1/2008 6:56:46 AM |
What a load of B/S. Honey, its the other way round. Most dads are excellent. Its most of us women that are just plain spiteful and revengeful (including you and me)! Speaking from experience!!! Hun..how many men have you married to "get this experience
Give me a break. (not about the excellent dad part....rather, the vengeful part) I don't think I'm a minority......hell, maybe I am. Never have I taken either husband to court (two) for child support or alimony.....And I wasn't even married to the dad of my two youngest children....still, he and I never went to court to battle it out for custody or child support...I get nothing, zero, zilch....no exaggeration for my two youngest (my oldest son is 18 and in the marines) boys....... I think you should really, really be careful how you spew your non-experience non-informational bull around......not all women are out to burn as many men as they can get their hands on...... in fact, it's probably a lot less than you seem to want it to be. So, Star.....where do you get your stats anyway??????? | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 1/1/2008 7:05:02 AM | Bluesunshine: Yes you are in the minority! And I respect you for that.
So, Star.....where do you get your stats anyway??????? ..same place as Weezygirl got hers. Interestingly, you didnt comments on hers..or was it because you agree with her view that most men are inherently useless! | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 1/1/2008 7:32:35 AM | Starfun7 seems to be the Only woman in here that has any common sense and I am begining to believe you women are jealous of her youth and beauty and not to mention she is making you all look like jack azzes. Here is an idea,,Get yourself a JOB. Not just 40 hours a week but lets go for 100 hours or more per week and then you will be contributing instead of complaining. Anybody who has lived and been thru knows you complainers are full of it,LOL,,Very transparent but good comedy relief at times.Anyway I am going for a jog now and done with this. But want to wish everyone a great 2008  | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment! Posted: 1/1/2008 7:33:41 AM | Star......:
Oh, no. And don't even try to infer that I think that most men are inherently useless. I've never said that. I never have inferred that......I think that weezy is right in most of her comments. I think you are wrong in most of yours.
But I do I think that there SHOULD be a legal cap on how much CS and alimony $$$ are paid. However.....wouldn't it be nice if fvcking court orders weren't the REASON most men (and women) pay?????? In my case.....I don't make him pay..... and so he doesn't.
It's really just THAT cut and dry. | |
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