| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 7:38:10 AM |
Starfun7 seems to be the Only woman in here that has any common sense and I am begining to believe you women are jealous of her youth and beauty and not to mention she is making you all look like jack azzes.
Star is beautiful ...what that has to do with CS is beyond me......And she's an advoate for men (ironically). I don't believe that I have put down any men in my posts or women in my posts.....others make good points...but you choose to see only hers because she's on your side......I haven't chosen a side....I simply share by experience. And I do it without bitterness for either gender. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 8:39:32 AM | BLue sunshine: Well, I am NOT an advocate for men (ironically). I am instead an ADVOCATE for fairness! I am also talking from experience...Where a greedy mother takes a dad for all he has...to the point that the dad deems it better to abandon the children.
I know "unfairness" and bitterness when i see it a mile away! Men (99%) would love to have a good relationship with their kids after breakup...and most do if the woman acts reasonable.
My dad sent me and my brother cards for every occassion, mum never gave them to us. She was all about getting money from him...even when I moved out of home (16) to live with my dad's brother, she was still collecting from him. He is the kind that gave everything he had for us and mum lived off it. I was made to believe that he is bad.
DADS are inherently good people. ..else women wont have kids with them in the first place. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 8:46:12 AM | I understand. But you belittle others' experience while putting all the weight of the world on all the mom's out there because your mom wasn't stellar. Right?
It think it really sucks that your mom did that to you and your father. I do. I also think it sucks that my children's dad has always had full access to his children but has never taken advantage of that. I also think it suck that he chooses, because the court doesn't make him, not to help me support these boys. Do I think that ALL men blow because of his actions.....absolutely not. Do I think that *most men suck because of his sins? No......that would be silly, now wouldn't it?
And, yes you're an advocate for dad's, lol..... and I think that that's wonderful actually!! Nothing wrong with that.....I'm sorry actually that I infered there was. I was just saying.....certainly it seems you have a problem with women because most collect CS. But now I understand it's because of a mom issue of your own. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 8:48:56 AM |
to the point that the dad deems it better to abandon the children.
That's not a good enough reason to abandon your children..........
I'm trying to think of a good reason for abandoment and I keep coming up with nothing.....
Men's (and women's) actions shouldn't be led by what the other does....but rather led by their own morality and such. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 8:59:41 AM |
That's not a good enough reason to abandon your children..........
..by abandonment I meant not having a real relationship with him. He stopped coming to see us because everytime he came, mum had something to argue about with him. He didnt like that happening in front of us. We even found out recently that he voluntarily paid extra CS so mum could send us over to him (mum moved 5 hours away from him)for weekends, hoilidays etc but she refused, yet collected the money. We were always so excited to see him and that made mum angry.
He had 2 other kids and they are so different from us. Positively I mean. Everybody who knows my dad tells us how much we have missed. And do you think the courts can or will punish mum for taking so much away from us? No!
And yes, I have heard horror stories from both sides but the majority is similar to mine. Hence my conclusion. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 9:18:31 AM | ...I was thinking each State has it's own 'system' it can adopt / follow etc and I'm sure (they all) change depending on the elected officials etc at a certain time.
I DO know, here in dumpwater PA :) - a man & woman (aka the mother & father of a child) can 'agree' to a set rate of child support for a child / children howEVER - even if both sides have attorneys working / signing the agreement(s), the custodial parent can STILL 'go back' for the difference from the court order vs the agreement (between the mother and father!)
I know this sounds...********* but (this) IS how it was just some 5 yrs ago! Sick but true. So I would be sure to check EVERYTHING involved with ANY 'agreement' with appliable State laws. | |
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Oscat
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Joined: 8/23/2007
Msg: 108 | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 2:37:04 PM |
What a load of B/S. Honey, its the other way round. Most dads are excellent. Its most of us women that are just plain spiteful and revengeful (including you and me)! Speaking from experience!!! Hun..how many men have you married to "get this experience"? Please leave ME out of your category....HONEY, cause I raised my own two with no child support, plus a couple of other mens children....with NO support from the absentee mothers....and now, I'm raising 2 grandchildren...with NO support from the father. Let's see....my mother also raised me with NO SUPPORT from my father. Need I continue?
Now, granted, more fathers are hanging around these days than did when I divorced in 1978. At that time the statistics showed that less than 20% (2 out of 10) fathers continued to pay support for more than 3 years after the divorce. Hence my strong advise to my own daughters.....BEFORE you have a child....BE SURE that YOU...and you ALONE are capable of supporting that (those children) BEFORE you have them. The stupidest thing in the world a women has ever done is to rely on someone else for her own survival....much less that of her children. If the guy sticks around....fine, I believe strongly that children are much better off with 2 parents; BUT, they're far too precious to leave their well being left up to the whims of anyone....whether they be male or female, who's too selfish and irresponsible to put them first.
Here is an idea,,Get yourself a JOB. Not just 40 hours a week but lets go for 100 hours or more per week and then you will be contributing instead of complaining Been there, DONE that Southernguy. So WHY are the men still whining that I've been able to retire with a nice income and they're still working? Hmmmm, guess they shoulda been nicer to me and the kids when they had the chance?
I AGREE with the poster who quoted the attorney....if you aren't going to have kids...why get married? If you're going to get divorced....DO NOT have kids....or make sure you're able to support them yourself. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 2:53:27 PM |
That's not a good enough reason to abandon your children..........
I'm trying to think of a good reason for abandonment and I keep coming up with nothing.....
Try reading some of the papers/books by Dr. Richard Gardner or Dr. Warshak. They have a number of horror stories regarding fathers who have suffered through PAS. Then you can read court papers and case law regarding what some fathers have had to do and it becomes easy to understand why some fathers have to walk away as they are unable to emotionally continue the fight or are unable to financially continue the legal battle that they may be forced to undertake.
There was a father in Ontario who battled for a number of years to see countless of court orders ignored or broken by the mother as courts are reluctant to send to jail mothers despite breaking court orders. In this case after 26 appearances in court this father had custody changed...but not before his relationship was damaged between himself and his daughter.
So you can stay and battle which is not always in the best interest of the children...and for many simply not financially possible.
So yes there are situations where it is easy to understand why some fathers are forced into walking away with the hope that at some later date you might be able to salvage the relationship with your children.....which is why it is suggested to those who are doing it...to keep a diary or a log about things that occur......and for some it is or will be the only thing that keeps them sane as they are overcome with the uneven battle.
Every other weekend if you are lucky equates into 15% of the month. A hostile or aggressive parent can cause great damage to the relationship with little digs or comments to young children. Not to mention those who schedule outside events during access time which may make it impossible for the ncp to attend. And when the children get older they say ...I do not want to go....they justify not sending the child as simply being to traumatic.......yet when the child says I do not want to go to school.....they have different reactions? So yes given circumstances...I have seen a few fathers simply walk away from the pain and constant battle...
And I have also seen a few who walk away simply because they are to lazy. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 3:06:33 PM | Tell me.....
When you think of "abandonment".....do you think it's forced? I don't. In the cases you've listed...I don't see it as abandonment. I have a friend who doesn't get to see his child.....and it's not his choice..... there are extenuating circumstances all across the board sometimes. I wouldn't say they've abandoned anyone in the "traditional" sense....my friend certainly didn't....there are men (and women) who are ripped from their children every single day.....every day....and it's ****ed up! I hate to see children suffer because a mother or a father are sooooo retarded that they can't see past themselves. People like, in my personal example here, suffer.....So, that's not what I meant, I guess ,when I say "abandonment isn't ok." | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 3:29:35 PM |
if the kids are used to living in a substantially higher life style,why should they have to suffer?..
So if they have to move into a smaller house, no more X-box, no more plasma TV... that is considered suffering? So everyone who doesn't live in a "substantially higher life style" is suffering? Maybe instead of making the child "suffer" so horribly, they should just stay with the parent with the higher income? Wouldn't that be a LOT simpler way to ensure the child stays in the "higher life style" they're accustomed to?
I don't think parents have a problem with their kids keeping the lifestyle they're accustomed to, I think they kinda resent the ex living the high life on their money. If the KIDS' lifestyle was the only one people were worried about, the wouldn't the selfless act be for the parent with less income to give primary custody to the one with the higher income? How does it make sense to demand custody of the children and then demand money so that the KIDS can live the same lifestyle they would have had if they had stayed with the other parent? Again, if the CHILD's lifestyle was truly the only one they were concerned about, then why take that child away from the parent who has the income to provide them that lifestyle? | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 4:49:04 PM | Your friend is not being realistic and seems to have no idea about how costly it is to raise children.
Depending on the age of the children he needs to factor in not just food, clothing, toys, child care costs and medical expenses, but for older kids school tuition, books, lunch money, fees for field trips, sports and other extra curricular activities, personal care such as hair care AND the cost of shelter and utilities.
Also tell him to factor in payments for years of counseling and medication which some kids need after divorce.
He'd be surprised to see how costly raising kids actually is and with that attitude should consider not having them or perhaps should reconsider marrying his girlfriend who he obviously thinks would take advantage of him financially in a divorce.
msg 6
.......no matter what agreement his wife signs with him about child support even if it is agreed in the divorce settlement she is free to go back anytime prior to when the kids are 18 and re-open the amount of child support he will pay.
That is true, and in some states the non custodial parent can seek to lower the payment if their income declines.
Msg 104
Where a greedy mother takes a dad for all he has...to the point that the dad deems it better to abandon the children.
Starfun7, you're talking about two different things here and one does not necessarily have anything to do with the other. Some women are greedy and some men simply abandon their kids after a split with the mother whether or not they pay support.
My dad sent me and my brother cards for every occassion, mum never gave them to us. She was all about getting money from him...even when I moved out of home (16) to live with my dad's brother, she was still collecting from him. He is the kind that gave everything he had for us and mum lived off it. I was made to believe that he is bad.
I see you are 30 years old and still angry at your mother for something that happened when you were 16. You sound like you have also been brainwashed by your father since you seem to think that mothers are all bad people and dads are all good. What you said your mother did is sad and it was wrong. I can tell she obviously was very angry at your father. Sorry you had that experience but it is time to let it go or seek counseling so that you can heal!
Happy New Year everyone! | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 5:13:48 PM |
If the KIDS' lifestyle was the only one people were worried about, the wouldn't the selfless act be for the parent with less income to give primary custody to the one with the higher income? I believe that this IS EXACTLY what the "State" is working toward. At this point in our society....parental rights are already extremely fragile. In 1960 when my parents divorced, there were NO agencies to inforce "child support". If the father paid...he paid...and if he didn't (they usually didn't) then that was the end of it....it was a totally voluntary system. In the 1980's with the establishment of CSEA, many states made payroll deduction for child support "mandatory". Within a few years after the CSEA agency was established, the non custodial parent was regarded as "guilty until proven innocent". The agency, quite like the IRS...without the legal authority, but nobody willing to take them on....began to have bonuses, vacation pay, income tax refunds etc. all directed through their agency JUST IN CASE the paying parent might be "delinquent". It frequently took MONTHS for CSEA to release these funds to their rightful owner. When "the formula" was established it served only to discourage either parent from improving their financial status....as it had serious effects on the amount of child support either paid OR received. In less than 30 years, the situation swung from one extreme....to another. Now we're (tax payers) faced with the newest fastest growing group of "needy" people......mothers who's child support stopped when the kids turned 18. They were able to "survive" well enough on child support that they never stopped to consider HOW they would continue surviving....AFTER the kids turned 18.
It's wrong that the system over burdens the non custodial parents TODAY, as a direct result of seeing what happened when they didn't burden the non custodial parents AT ALL (pre 1980s) Well, it's nearly 30 yrs too late to start doing it RIGHT.....but what SHOULD have been incorporated into that "formula" was that the custodial parents....yes, usually the mothers, and usually underemployed and relatively uneducated or unskilled...should have had the stipulation that they MUST seek retraining, schooling or some means of becoming SELF SUPPORTING while being "assisted" through child support payments. That was unfortunately NOT the case.
What I see happening in the NEXT 30 yrs however is that the children WILL be "sold to the highest bidder".....who is still generally the male parent. The reason the male parent has more financial ability is because he is working that 1oo hrs a week mentioned by a previous post. This leaves NO time for child rearing, so therefore the children will HAVE to be reared by......you got it.....the STATE! I think this is what they've been after all along.....and I'm pretty sure that the next 50 yrs will prove that. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 6:05:02 PM | What I see happening in the NEXT 30 yrs however is that the children WILL be "sold to the highest bidder"
Of course it will. If they just did 50/50 and let each parent prove their mettle, there'd be a whole lot less animosity. Award no child support unless it is deemed that 50/50 cannot be achieved (either because of distance, proven danger, or a parent simply walking away). Maybe if our laws actually did take into account the best interests of children instead of just what they're worth, these issues wouldn't be a problem. However, show me the laws that actually treat children as such. They don't exist because it's not profitable for lawyers for such laws to exist. Lawyers profit off of perpetuating the misery of children. Watch "Liar Liar" with Jim Carey some time... perfect example. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 6:14:26 PM | Starfun7, you're talking about two different things here and one does not necessarily have anything to do with the other. Some women are greedy and some men simply abandon their kids after a split with the mother whether or not they pay support.
Sorry my dear, but one leads to the other. They are not exclusive! If a dad has to spend approx. $500 (just bcos mum moved us 5hrs away) to come see his kids once a month and then pays over 40% of his net salary as CS and you think its fair then I would like to see what is unfair in your view.
I see you are 30 years old and still angry at your mother for something that happened when you were 16. You sound like you have also been brainwashed by your father since you seem to think that mothers are all bad people and dads are all good.
My dad avoid talking bad about my mum under ANY circumstances. He keeps saying mum was young and made bad mistakes and that we shouldnt overlook the fact that she is blood and also raised us, (albiet with so much anger). My dad is such a wonderful man and I am amazed how he gets all that forgiveness and patience to deal with my mum. I am not angry at my mum anymore. I still have a good relationship with her and she has apologised on ends about her behaviour. She admits she was influenced by bad friends to leave the marriage. And she admits dad never yelled at her, hit her or cheated on her.
I have never said ALL mothers are bad. I just counter all the general notion that mothers seem to have that dads are worthless etc. Most women who have posted here (except few - like Blue Sunshine, GrandmaBooBoo etc) think men are evil, selfish, etc and should pay 100% of their net salary as CS. Thats my bone of contention here.
Now we're (tax payers) faced with the newest fastest growing group of "needy" people......mothers who's child support stopped when the kids turned 18. They were able to "survive" well enough on child support that they never stopped to consider HOW they would continue surviving....AFTER the kids turned 18.
You couldnt have said it better...!!!
If they just did 50/50 and let each parent prove their mettle, there'd be a whole lot less animosity. Award no child support unless it is deemed that 50/50 cannot be achieved (either because of distance, proven danger, or a parent simply walking away). The Swedish have it better. That is exactly their divorce and child custody laws. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 6:26:14 PM |
I told him that in North America (unlike United Kingdom), there is no maximum child support hence people pay as much as $5000/month for one child depending on their income.
Anyway does this make any sense? What normal child needs $5000/month? I read of a dad who paid such ridiculous amounts (average of $6250) for 13 years and therefore felt justified not leaving anything for this kid in his will. He had 3 other kids, btw!
It doesn't really matter what a kid NEEDS, does it? If they'd remained married, what would be spent on the child? Is the father saying that because he rejects the mother that his kids are now worth LESS than before? Guess he didn't really give a sh!t about them in the first place! Yeah, this really p!sses me off - and I don't even have any kids! | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 6:33:52 PM |
The Swedish have it better. That is exactly their divorce and child custody laws.
That's what pisses me off about Canada and our view that we're some sort of champions of social justice. If the measure of a nation is how it treats its weakest and most helpless citizens, our country is falling short. Children are among the most vulnerable of our citizens. Our Family Justice System is a complete and utter embarrassment which does nothing but perpetuate the abuse of children. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 7:06:59 PM | I believe there should be a Child Support cap. It should capped at what is reasonable to provide for a child in their province before they reach 18. I think $5000 is excessive.
I have stated on other forums that the "best interest of the child" principle that guides family law has lead us astray and this of one of the ways it has. It provides that any prenuptial agreement specifying child support will be ignored by the court. I think something should be done about this. A cap would set some minds at ease about being financially devastated. I would advise the friend of the OP to marry someone in the UK instead if this is his concern. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 8:01:15 PM | When you consider that in the case of a divorce in a two income household, there is one less pay check coming into the household, Child Support as a percent of the other's income is generally insufficient to account for the shortfall and certainly
not enough for the custodial parent and child/ren to actually 'live off.' Most times the custodial parent has to down size in some way or find other means of increasing the household income. So contrary to what some may think, very few custodial parents are 'greedy gold diggers' living well off Child Support payments.
Starfun, unfortunately the children are usually the ones who hurt the most in divorces. When one parent moves away for whatever reason, whether to be closer to family or for a better paying job the other parent or the kids have to travel for visitation. I've known men who have actually relocated to be closer to their kids but I understand that that is not always possible.
Peace.
Brandie46 | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 8:47:05 PM | I've repeatedly heard and read that Prenuptial Agreements rarely provide any such "protection".
In Canada, a man is liable for child support regardless if the children are his (even if she is collecting child support from the father) if he has treated them as his.
Once your friend commits to this lady and her children, the courts will see them as his financial dependents for life.
That is my humble understanding. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 10:28:20 PM | | He needs to check with the law in that country/state. But the real problem is not the prenup but his attitude. He's going into marrage with a negative attitude. Sounds like he does't trust his g/f. Maybe he needs to make sure she is the one for him or vis versa. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 10:29:21 PM | | If you refer to the child support tables (Ontario) you will see that for most folks, CS is not enough to "live off" . My ex is self employed and pays child support on his "declared income" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink). On the rare occasion that I have mentioned to him that there seems to be a discrepancy between what he used to make, and what he claims to make now (guess what?! shocker! he makes a lot less money now) his response is that if I push the issue, he will simply sell the business at a loss, let's say to his brother, and fight to reduce the CS that he pays. Sometimes, I think I should fight to the bitter end, but WTF, I work full time and have three kids to raise, and who has the energy? He pays about 1400 a month support and I can assure you that I need every penny of it. I do have a job NOW, but after being a stay at home parent for many years ( which he WANTED more than I did) I have an entry level job which does not pay well at all. "Our" rent (not just mine, btw, as my kids live here too) is 1200 per month. Divided by four people, the kids share of the rent is 900, which means 500 per month to feed them. So, so far ex has paid for their shelter and food, and why shouldn't he? I pay for everything else, including clothing, haircuts, glasses, dentist, school supplies, various inexpensive sporting activities, birthday parties, shoes...anyone who is a parent knows how the list can grow (another busted zipper on another $20.00 backpack...damn). Yes, I know I am being unscientific here, but I know many women in a similar situation. I am sure that there are some women out there who take advantage of some men, but anyone who thinks that a woman can live well off child support while she lounges around and gets a weekly manicure is out of touch with reality. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/1/2008 10:30:36 PM | this thread is disgusting.
The only words of sanity came from mess. 25: exactly what I feel like saying...WHAT?
You, Op, wrote:
I think there should be a maximum ceiling on child support payments!
and I think there should be a maximum ceiling on sheer stupidity allowed on the issue of child support!
Geez............no kids yet and they are already all wrapped up in maximum ceilings! How disgraceful.
My sincere regrets on your future loss of opportunities in this pond, OP!
Holy.....we have gone so far:
why even think of marrying and having children then! | |
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