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Oscat
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Joined: 8/23/2007
Msg: 127 | |
| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 5:28:49 AM | He pays about 1400 a month support and I can assure you that I need every penny of it. I do have a job NOW, but after being a stay at home parent for many years ( which he WANTED more than I did) I have an entry level job which does not pay well at all. "Our" rent (not just mine, btw, as my kids live here too) is 1200 per month.
Im sure if you also bring to the table say $1000, you'll be a lot better. CS is not meant to be the responsibility of the man alone!! The example you gace is slanted especially in the rent. Without the kids, your rent will still be between $700-$1000 depending on where you live.
If you feel he can better afford them, then why don't you let him take care of them..at least for the "best interests of the children"!
Oh Im sorry..I guess you suscribe to the warped school of thought that "All men are monsters..incapable of raising the kids etc"! I hope not. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 7:57:17 AM |
Without the kids, your rent will still be between $700-$1000 depending on where you live. Careful there OP, you may be shooting yourself in the foot here. MANY places have a "base rent", and add $50-$100 per month PER child....or pet on top of that basic rent. ALSO, "depending on where you live" opens up the can of worms....that she HAS to move to a smaller town where rent is more affordable, thus making visitation more inconvenient and perhaps even eliminating weekday evening visits.
And, once again.....careful when throwing out ALL other considerations than monetary ones. Don't know about Canada....but the Ohio Revised Code stipulates that "Children man NOT be "warehoused" in daycare facilities. If your "friend" is making that $300K per year....and working that 100 hrs per week....then HE is NOT the one raising the kids....a stranger is. Now check into the costs of hiring child care providers....depending on where you live....and according to other threads here on POF, the average cost per hour IS $8-12. Get out your calculator....that's $3200 - $4800 a month just for child care, and doesn't even touch the cost of actually maintaining the childs other needs. I'm sure you begin to see the problem here??? When you present this kind of logic to a judge, it becomes quickly apparent that your interest is NOT really in what's best for the child...OR for your own wallet...but rather a vendetta against the ex; and judges frown on this! | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 9:30:03 AM |
Yes, I know I am being unscientific here, but I know many women in a similar situation.
But, you also get a cheque from the government for the kids eveery month too. My ex was getting around $700/month for three kids, I think. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 10:01:30 AM |
"All men are monsters..incapable of raising the kids etc"!
What a stupid generalization!!!
bye the way, Oscat, 50/50 when men are able to go through a pregnancy, a labor, and breastfeed! Every psychologist will fully understand this: no bond is like the one with the person that kept you inside for 9 months....this might be why custody gets by default given to the mother. It could be given to the father too, provided that he can dedicate enough time and effort to the child ( this of course does not mean that "all mothers are better parents"....in some cases the father CAN BE the nurturer). The law is as is because of historical reasons.
And this comes from a fully independent woman, coming from 2 parents that both worked full-time ( got thrown here and there, to capable nannies and uncapable nannies) and who has decided that no kids is better than the fight to raise them.
Cap or no cap, you seem to believe that women and kids can be related to in the same fashion you relate to a business.
I recommend therapy! | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 10:10:50 AM | Neither are married, nor are there any children yet...and already both are worried about break-up, divorce, and the financial "what if" issues....
If they're both that damn selfish and are concerned with only what they'll get/recieve/battle for at this point in the relationship, then they should forget about the whole thing now ...and go their separate ways...
Modern Marriage...SHEESH!  | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 11:20:48 AM | Just a sidenote: In the spirit of fairness and equality shouldn't the divorce law be as simple as the following:
"Custody of a child should automatically be 50/50. Under these new laws, child support and alimony are eliminated given the default 50/50 custody. Child support would only be ordered if one party voluntarily elects to reduce or surrender their default custody allotment or if one party were deemed unfit to care for their child.
I am curious to see what would happen to the divorce rate in U.S. if that following law suggestion was institutionalized. My guess is that the divorce rate would drop dramatically in line with what happened in Sweden. Remember, something like 70-80% of all divorces in US are initiated by women. Is there potentially a correlation between our current divorce laws, the primary beneficiary of our current divorce laws, and the significant imbalance in who initiates divorces? The proof is in the pudding!!! | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 11:33:49 AM | mess above: here is another genious that hasn't yet understood that divorce and child custody are two separate issues, especially nowadays. No point in comparing Europe to North America: 2 entirely different histories ( french code versus british code) and two different cultures ( socialist/european culture versus capitalist/american culture).
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 12:11:19 PM |
hasn't yet understood that divorce and child custody are two separate issues,
Wrong!! Wrong!! Wrong!! Child custody arises due to a marriage breakdown. They are not entirely seperate. The later is only possible due to the former (including seperation)! There is no child custody issues in an ongoing marriage!
No point in comparing Europe to North America
There have been so many instances where laws initiated from either side of the pond has been adopted across the other side. If its in the "best interests of the child(ren)", then who cares whether its French code/Bristish code/Socialist or Capitalist!! | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 12:16:20 PM | The courts are litered with the corpses of financially ruined men and not just because of the alimony. Houses, cars, retirement funds etc are routinely awarded "in support of the children."
I originally had to pay 60% of my gross income in child support. This left me with so little I could barely eat... I had to save every nickle and dime just to have money to buy food when they came over every other weekend.
We were very well off before the divorce, I was dead broke after the divorce. My ex was very well off and two attorneys could put their kids through college. In the end my ex ended up dead broke and bankrupt, lost the house and all those assets that were given "in support of the children" were gone!
I eventually ended up with custody of my kids and I played hell getting a single nickle out of her... the courts just don't believe women should have to pay the same percentages of their salaries as men do... AND don't even try using the courts to enforce a child support order against a woman!!! You'd be better off praying for pennies to rain from heaven!
I think any smart person with significant assets contemplating marriage will protect those assets at any cost. No person wants to see their children go hungry or go without an education. Limiting child support is not about denying any of that. It is about limiting the amount you pay to an ex, under the guise of child support, which is essential alimony.
It is reasonable to limit child support paid to an ex, and, if needed, make the person with the greater assets (prenup author) fund certain child rearing expenses such as education and health care so long as the person with assets continues to have those assets.
It is unreasonable to assume the person with assets should maintain two households at equal status so that "he doesn't live in a mansion and the kids in a shack". If the custodial parent can't contribute enough to maintain a semblance of lifestyle perhaps they shouldn't be the custodial parent. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 12:23:17 PM | bye the way, Oscat, 50/50 when men are able to go through a pregnancy, a labor, and breastfeed! Every psychologist will fully understand this: no bond is like the one with the person that kept you inside for 9 months....this might be why custody gets by default given to the mother.
Never, ever, ever have I read anything so stupid in my entire life!!!
You should hang around the children of custodial fathers and hear what these children have to say about their mothers... not what they have heard their fathers say... but just the experiences the children have with their mothers. More often than not you will find that the person who carried them for 9 months and breastfed them and all that other crap you stated has the maternal instincts of a rattle snake!!! You will also find the fathers to be the loving, caring nurturing parent usually exceeding anything any woman can provide.
The presence of a functioning uterous is no more of an idication of parental suitability than any thing else. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 12:31:11 PM |
mess above: here is another genious that hasn't yet understood that divorce and child custody are two separate issues, especially nowadays. No point in comparing Europe to North America: 2 entirely different histories ( french code versus british code) and two different cultures ( socialist/european culture versus capitalist/american culture).
And these are the types of spins we unleash when our argument is faltering! No offense, but there is absolutely nothing rational about your statement! What do cultural values have to do with a child's needs? Isn't child support triggered by the separation of two parents, whether married or not and why do you take offense to my post? Isn't equality something to strive for? Or should equality only be applied selectively when it serves a purpose? | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 12:35:12 PM | Mess 138: you are over-reactive and your background is clearly conditioning you.
You will also find the fathers to be the loving, caring nurturing parent usually exceeding anything any woman can provide The first part I agree with ( did I say the opposite? No, I didn't); the second part (from "usually exceeding").....it is due to your false conditioned view: could be and could not be, depending on the circumstances). And women are more then their uterus, please! At least that!
Start Fun 7 ( I regard you as more of a mess. no. ): you are another case of conditioning. In Canada, according to the Supreme Court Rules, you apply separetely for divorce and/or child manteinance. As for the historical background of the laws: they should be considered and judged with the historical background in perspective.
Where things and people are coming from will condition how and where they are going.
Mess. 139: I stand by my principle that there will never be true equality between men and women, like there will never be equality between an apple and a pear. Equal dignity: YES! Equality in terms of laws: I don't think so ( My opinion, of course). | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 12:48:35 PM | Absolutely not.
In his defense what if his income changes drastically? It will be very difficult to get that amount reduced.
In her defense, what if his income changes drastically? It will be difficult to get an increase in the amount.
2500 is NOT enough for 2 children if he is making over 300K. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 1:02:49 PM | ^^^^ or perhaps it is YOUR false conditioned view that prevents you from seeing that men are just as capable as women.
Here's a great little factoid:
68% of the men who are required to pay child support do so... this leaves 32% as deadbeat dads.
57% of women who are required to pay child support do so... this leaves 43% as deadbead moms.
The feminist.com also considers the custodial mom who refuses to allow the father to visit their children to be deadbeat moms...
Many men refuse to pay child support if they are denied visitation and many women will deny visitation just because.
Just go google "percentage of deadbeat moms" and get the real statistics.
This is a VERY messy topic and the OP is right to try and resolve this prior to marriage. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 1:12:45 PM | Mess 142. You are entitled to your opinion and I do not wish to change it.
What I meant to get across is that a child's development can be conditioned, in terms of feelings, from the moment of conception...Unfortunately men cannot do that job, at least, not for the first 9 months: it does not matter how capable they are.
Second: I have no kids and never had to go through a legal battle to settle my divorce, therefore I believe I am pretty free from that kind of conditioning: I am not even the child of a single mother who received any kind of support, actually in my case it was my mother that provided ( and still does) for the financial needs of both, child and husband and she is certainly nothing further than a feminist (a martyr, maybe?)
Interesting and stimulating debate, by the way. Thanks, OP!
In this case ( the friend of the OP and his future wife/mother of the kids) : they should both go through expensive international independent legal advice and take it from there. No point in coming on here for legal wisdom and advice: here you only get opinions and judgements, as it should be. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 3:07:05 PM |
No point in coming on here for legal wisdom and advice: here you only get opinions and judgements, as it should be.
Not really. Some of us actually provided him with the advice he sought in that a pre-determined child support agreement in a Pre-Nup will not stand up in court. The only way it will stand up is if the mother chooses not to contest it. Unfortunately I don't know this woman so I don't know if she's the kind that would do that. All I know is that I don't make enough money to take that kind of a risk again so I won't be having any more kids. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 7:38:51 PM | I'm only 25 and have full legal custody of my sisters two youngest kids 8 and 5, in order for their father to sign over custody I had to agree that he did not owe any back child support and that he would not have to pay any child support for either child currently nor in the future. However, in the papers ( I guess he didn't read them or he wouldn't have signed) but it states at anytime the State of Alabama can reopen a child support hearing and make him have to pay support, both spouses income apply towards the amount of the support payment. Since their father has been remarried if either one got a job or both worked (neither do) both incomes would be considered for the child support payment.
I understand what you are saying about going back for support or the court doing so is the same in Alabama. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 9:06:11 PM | | Mess. 144: Out of fairness, I would suggest to the two individuals in question to go for INDEPENDENT legal advice, and I stress "independent". Since he is british and she is canadian, no given answer on here can really help, especially not knowing what is the man's status in North America. International legal advice is needed and for both. The rest one can easily find out with a google search: it is a common sense assumption that any kind of child support agreement in a prenup. is going to get dis-regarded by any court, simply because it involves a non-consenting minor (the child), whose best interest the state should look after. And OP: done is this way, your inquiry sounds sneaky and your position in this regard truly unfair to the woman. Sadly, this is not going to help your own dating 'game' ( kind of unwise move, wasn't it??) | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 9:20:25 PM | Neither are married, nor are there any children yet...and already both are worried about break-up, divorce, and the financial "what if" issues....
If they're both that damn selfish and are concerned with only what they'll get/recieve/battle for at this point in the relationship, then they should forget about the whole thing now ...and go their separate ways... - Artistee
Now THAT is the most sensible advice I've heard heard here yet!
Personally, I would never consider marrying anyone so materialistic that they felt a pre-nup
was neccessary, in the first place.
Personally, as a former law student, my understanding of the current laws in Canada, is that
you cannot agree to NO child support, but that any agreed upon amount can be thrown out/
changed by a judge, if s/he deems it unfair &/or unreasonable. But generally, this only occurrs
if they amount is disputed. So, it all depends on the person with whom you are making the
agreement. And in my opinion, if you had an adequate level of trust in the person & the relationship
in the first place, you wouldn't be discussing pre-npus, now would you? | |
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Oscat
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Joined: 8/23/2007
Msg: 146 | |
| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 9:51:15 PM | And OP: done is this way, your inquiry sounds sneaky and your position in this regard truly unfair to the woman. Im sorry if I came across as biased in any way. But naturally speaking, one would expect to root for its kind..just as you are vigorously doing for women here regardless of the facts.
UPDATE: After reading all posts here, I think he is better off doing the pre-nup and marriage in UK and moving back since the amount involved is more than the maximum cap British law allows for 2 kids/month regardless of one's income.
Personally, I would never consider marrying anyone so materialistic that they felt a pre-nup was neccessary, in the first place Well, as one poster put it, "You dont have to be a soldier to know there is a war going on in Afghanistan". Learning from other people's mistakes and the resulting tragedies and taking appropriate precaution is not materialistic. Ask Paul McCarthney (marrying without a pre-nup) and now having to pay over $55m for a 3-4year marriage. (The ex wouldnt accept $20m).
And in my opinion, if you had an adequate level of trust in the person & the relationship in the first place, you wouldn't be discussing pre-npus, now would you? Well, we as a people and nation have had to put up so many inconvenient security measures not because we dont trust each other but because of a few terrorists. Pre-nups were very rare 40years ago...but becoming a requirement of a sort due to a few gold-diggers. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 10:00:48 PM | Nice rebuttal, Oscat!
But naturally speaking, one would expect to root for its kind..just as you are vigorously doing for women here Now, this is funny and true ( I should have been an advocate!)
Your last comments have elevated your status in my mind.
( How to win an enemy, eh? Isn't it true that we learn more from an enemy than from a friend?).
I thoroughly enjoyed the debate.
Happy New Year! | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/2/2008 11:12:24 PM |
UPDATE: After reading all posts here, I think he is better off doing the pre-nup and marriage in UK and moving back since the amount involved is more than the maximum cap British law allows for 2 kids/month regardless of one's income.
He still may have to be careful. If you read the (Canadian) Federal Child Support Guidelines, they have references to determing income for parents who live outside of the country. With her being a Canadian citizen, if she decided to move back to Canada with the children, I do believe the Canadian laws would apply. If the kids are born in the UK, she might not be able to just move back and retain custody, but I don't know how that one works. He'd better check with a lawyer on that one. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/3/2008 2:59:58 AM | UPDATE: After reading all posts here, I think he is better off doing the pre-nup and marriage in UK and moving back since the amount involved is more than the maximum cap British law allows for 2 kids/month regardless of one's income.....
uhhmm OSCAT.....Did I read that right^^^^???? It dosen't matter where your friend gets married....if he chooses to live in the US or Canada, he will be obligated to abide by any laws regarding custody and child support on this side of the pond!....My question is does his future bride know how much doubt he has in they're future marriage, and that he is already planning his exit route? There are many extenuating circumstances that can surround the payment of child support.....which shouldn't be confused with visitation or custody issues.
By trying to support your opinion (which it seems you had before posting) with comparisons about the war and Paul McCartney.......you have lost your credibility to be objective about the origional question you posed.
I would be interested in reading a budget breakdown from the NCP's view as to what it costs to raise one or two children.....and what should be the deemed adequate amount to support those kid(s).....
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/3/2008 7:54:54 AM | Your friend should think a bit more unconventionally and logically. First question: Does he want kids? If so, he should adopt them and forget about marriage. With an income of more than 300k, he could easily look after the kids himself and hire a caregiver if needed. What does he need a wife for? If he doesn't want kids, it makes even less sense for him to marry. That way he never has to worry about property division, child support, alimony etc. When it's time to split with his girlfriend, he will "owe" her nothing more than a goodbye kiss.
One caveat is in order. If he does hire a caregiver, he should make sure she doesn't live with him and that he doesn't find her sexually attractive. If the caregiver lives with him and they have a sexual relationship, guess what? He's got a common law wife. She would have almost a strong a claim on him as a legal wife. | |
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