| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/9/2008 4:43:17 AM | but his attitude and outlook sure is helping to perpetuate a stigma that gurauntees nothing will change when it comes to two parents that are able to negotiate the best interest for thier kids.
I realize it's already been said, but they are doing exactly that... they are negotiating what is in the best interests of their children before they become the bitter, arguing exes who are left to sort these issues out at the time of divorce. People who complain $2,500/month is not enough are not opposed because this man is not concerned about providing for his children... they're opposed because they know this woman could get much more, based on his income. You are not any more concerned for his children than lawyers are. $2,500/month is more than sufficient. I am expected to provide for a child and an adult on much much less than that and child support still comes out of that, so boo f*cking hoo hoo for all of those who think this man is somehow a poor provider because he's negotiating a settlement like this.
The difference between saving for a child(s) education and negotiating a CP order before they are born is called investing in your child's future, instead of bargaining your responsibilities for your own.
He is not bargaining away his responsibilites... he is merely bargaining how much money he will directly hand over to his ex-wife, if this woman ever finds herself with that title. The fact that he's negotiating child support kind of indicates that he's accepting responsibility already, does it not?
People seem to think that people with lots of money shouldn't care who takes it away from them nor how much they take. His attitude is perpetuating nothing... it's people who are opposed to him who are perpetuating the stigma that our current laws don't need to be reformed. Anybody with half a sense of objectivity understands that our laws are not designed to look out for the best interests of our children. As long as people keep defending them, they will not change. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/9/2008 5:55:11 AM | I'm all for people looking into these things before they get married and before they have children. Don't we frequently say more people should give greater thought to getting married before they make this big step? And isn't that exactly what this guy is doing? If the OP's friend ends up divorced down the road he isn't going to be blindsided by the law and I imagine he isn't going to be complaining about fulfilling it either. Thanks Margo for your wonderful post (Msg#209). Nowhere is this guy saying he will not be part of the children's life (shierking his responsibilities) and no where did he say he is looking forward to the marriage breaking down. It specifically said.."should the marriage breakdown" ..which in today's world seems to me more of a certainty than being involved in a car accident.
Again, ItsMargo thanks for being a voice of reason. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/9/2008 9:33:00 AM | With all the whining about paying child support that fathers do.......I am surprised that women continue to agree to bear children for any man.
Doesn’t today’s woman have a choice to bear children or not? Last time I checked, the choice of abortion rests solely with the woman. Besides, which gender has the higher maternal instinct? You are grabbing for straws and I am sorry to say that your reasoning bears no resemblance to logic what so ever. Ask yourself instead, what benefit is there for a man to marry? Give me one good reason why a man should marry in today's environment and I will give you 10 why he should not.
Ohh and Margo and Starfun. Thank you for being a voice of reason. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/9/2008 3:46:07 PM | no my dear it is not based on a man income, its based on the non custodial parents income, mom or dad. bottom line, mom should get a better job if she dont want to live in a shack. child support is for "the maint. and support of the child". not to support moms lack of a good job, or dads lack of a good job. nothing else | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/9/2008 7:34:06 PM | Msg 201............
Hmmm. I guess his only viable option is to establish and maintain residency in a country that awards little or nothing to women in divorce. Afghanistan, perhaps? Then if they divorce, it would be handled in their country and state of residency by the laws in effect there. Too bad I didn't think of that the first time around!!
Cudos to you for not recognizing your selfishisness and not placing a dollar value on what your wife did to contribute to your very comfortable life while married to her.
YOu used her with the bill of how many children and made yourself comfortable and whined about supporting children. You should have kept your pants on if you were that selfish.
Here is a lesson ladies....what dollar value will you put on cleaning his home, which you may or may not have ownership of, caring for his 50% of the responsibility for the children, letting your body get out of shape to bear him a child...........a body that you might have saved for a better purpose, like educating yourself and earning more money than he did. What did you give up to accomodate a piece of scum like this.
Well, an education costs a lot less than this type of man will take from you. You can still have a child without the weight of his contempt and anger. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/10/2008 9:09:33 AM | I think that if people actually feel this way,..
about how children should be raised in case of a marriage breakdown...how their children are worth a dollar amount and should have to go without..because one parent isnt giving enough to the other parent..
I think they should to themselves a favor....and NOT BRING CHILDREN INTO THE WORLD!!
there is nothing more sad..then a small child asking to (for eg.) play hockey..or take dance lessons..
and being told no..they cant afford it..because mommy and daddy are seperated/divorced | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/12/2008 2:11:13 AM | Master V>>>your quote..........For your information, I pay $400/month rent living here with my parent, and buy my own food, so I know quite well how much things cost.
Wow.......holy crackers.........YOU pay a hundred bucks a week to live at home with Ma and Pa?....I underestimated you and the huge contribution you might have in this discussion....my sincere apologiezzz.....K that waz fun...let's do it again...
you Master V>>
While I admire your pitiful personal attack (Sarcasm), I think you forgot to take into account the fact that we're talking law here, and whether you agree or not, the law does not define children's needs based on personal opinions.
Well MMV....that point I will agree with....the law defines childrens needs and what they are entitled to be based on a simple financial calculation known as child support that is usually calculated by the incomes of one if not both parents and paid to the custodial parent......I could continue on that point...but that topic has been done to death in the forums.
you again>>>>You know what they say about making idiotic assumptions.
They sure do make you look like an @$$.
^^ please quote source for the above comment......chineese proverbs.....president bush.....confuscious...
Wow....$400.00?.....seriously?....every month?...... | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/12/2008 2:49:02 AM | [ they are negotiating what is in the best interests of their children before they become the bitter, arguing exes who are left to sort these issues out at the time of divorce. People who complain $2,500/month is not enough are not opposed because this man is not concerned about providing for his children... they're opposed because they know this woman could get much more, based on his income. You are not any more concerned for his children than lawyers are. $2,500/month is more than sufficient. I am expected to provide for a child and an adult on much much less than that and child support still comes out of that, so boo f*cking hoo hoo for all of those who think this man is somehow a poor provider because he's negotiating a settlement like this.]
^^^To That Guy Him.....you are completely missing the point...My arguements have very little to do with money.....my opinions and arguements have to do with responsibilities of parents....BOTH parents!
If you have become bitter and argumentative with your ex....IMO...that shouldn't even enter into the relationship or support you can provide your child (speaking generally here)....It is not so much the amount of money that the OP's "friend" has suggested as being adequate child support ....it is the census of creating a loophole to shirk any and all future responsibilities if there were a child.
you TGH>..
People seem to think that people with lots of money shouldn't care who takes it away from them nor how much they take. His attitude is perpetuating nothing... it's people who are opposed to him who are perpetuating the stigma that our current laws don't need to be reformed. Anybody with half a sense of objectivity understands that our laws are not designed to look out for the best interests of our children. As long as people keep defending them, they will not change.
You are wrong....it is people exactly like this guy, used as an example here, who are the one's who don't feel they are obligated to adhere to the same rules as everyone else....
That is exactly how the OP's example and inqurie are a catalyst in creating the stigma and aids in perpetuating that predjiduce opinion.
If you took away the dollar amount....would you think it was okay for a low income earner to negotiate a child support settlement with his future bride?.....Is it just people with money who can afford lawyers that should benefit from this type of negotiation?
You can not have two sets of rules for the rich, middle class, and the poor.....and thank god  ....our legal system understands this........ | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/12/2008 7:16:36 PM |
Wow, are you actually saying there are men who actually care about the well-being of the children they produce, after a relationship with the mother is over?
Arrr yeah men are human beings to and by human nature we grow a bond with our children. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/12/2008 7:23:46 PM | My arguements have very little to do with money
Your arguement has everything to do with money. You're measuring this man's paternal responsibility by his suggestion to cap child support.
It is not so much the amount of money that the OP's "friend" has suggested as being adequate child support ....it is the census of creating a loophole to shirk any and all future responsibilities if there were a child.
Right and wrong. Yes it's about if there was (were) a child(ren), but also if there were a marriage dissolution. Even with the children, none of this even matters if they never separate/divorce.
And what future responsibilities is it that he's "shirking"? Explain them to me... I'm curious. You say the crux of your arguement has nothing to do with money, what are the responsibilities he is looking to "shirk" by capping child support? You're making assumptions of his character, and if those assumptions are not based on money, I'd like to see what you based those assumptions on.
it is people exactly like this guy, used as an example here, who are the one's who don't feel they are obligated to adhere to the same rules as everyone else
What does that have to do with what I was talking about? The rules only apply to people who cannot agree without taking it to court. Child support is negotiable until parties refuse to agree... that's the only time "the rules" apply.
I'm not sure this will help, but what the hell... I'll try and explain. Right now neither party is angry and hell bent on revenge. At this point they are both well-intentioned and looking to make a decision they both believe is acceptable and in the best interests of their children. One or the other might not be in that same frame of mind when the time comes when the children's interests really need to be looked after should they find themselves split up. They're trying to protect their children from being subjected to intense court battles in the future by trying to settle it now.
The reason child support cannot be included in Pre-Nups is because lawyers make too much money off of custody cases. The legal community is not going to chop down their money tree by simply allowing such matters to be sorted out before parties have a chance to duke it out for a few months/years.
Maybe if the laws governing child support weren't so out of whack you wouldn't have people upset with them or looking for ways to get around them. Like I've said before, the OP's friend isn't the one who created that mess. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/12/2008 8:10:34 PM |
What does that have to do with what I was talking about? The rules only apply to people who cannot agree without taking it to court. Child support is negotiable until parties refuse to agree... that's the only time "the rules" apply.
I'm not sure this will help, but what the hell... I'll try and explain. Right now neither party is angry and hell bent on revenge. At this point they are both well-intentioned and looking to make a decision they both believe is acceptable and in the best interests of their children. One or the other might not be in that same frame of mind when the time comes when the children's interests really need to be looked after should they find themselves split up. They're trying to protect their children from being subjected to intense court battles in the future by trying to settle it now.
Good points here That Guy Him...
More people should discuss this stuff on the way in to a marriage. It is an excellent time for both parties to be fair and loving towards each other, and to my view, it is the absolute best gift you can give to your future self. If you don't manage to "beat the odds" you have saved yourself time, turmoil and potential trauma at a time when everyone's feelings are unraveling... at least, I haven't managed a break-up or a divorce where I didn't feel significantly unravelled. Especially when there are children involved.
If people can't agree... the alternative is no one gets to decide... you pay an arm and a leg to go to court to have someone else - the judge who doesn't know you, decide what happens in your life. And the arm and leg that you pay... is money that is no longer available for your children, for support or to establish two households. Clearly, attempting to avoid this is time well spent and issues very worthy of discussion and agreement.
For Darr and others who are suggesting men don't want to be custodial fathers or who can't be great parent because they are male...
1. there are plenty of women and men who, sadly, don't want to continue a relationship with their children post-divorce.
2. there are plenty of divorced people (women and men) who are so angry with their exes that they hurt their children and try to interfere with the exes relationship with their children. The courts are clogged with such cases.
3. there are plenty of men and women - but given how the majority of custody decisions go to the mother, it IS mostly men - who have had to face such interference and problems that they feel the best choice is to not see their children anymore. Among many, many reasons... some do it to spare their children further turmoil and anguish.
I hope that is sufficient to kill this line of thinking... would be sad for this thread to go down that path, and there certainly are tons of statistics that back up that ALL mothers aren't perfect and ALL fathers aren't rotten. Let's not bother trotting them out, shall we?
My guess is the OP doesn't wish his future self, his wife nor his children to have to face this crap. In my view, it is a loving and caring thing to do. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/12/2008 9:01:57 PM | | Any woman that would sign that prenup would need to get her head examined, not to mention that it probably would not stand up in court. Child support is usually determined by the father's current income not what he feels it should be or what he was earning 5-10 years earlier. The guy sounds like a complete control freak and she must be a moron. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/12/2008 9:29:22 PM | | The sad part is that it isn't just all men. There are a lot of dead beat moms out there also. There are just some people that should NEVER become a parent. There should be some type of test or something to determain if you would even be a fit parent and if not the FIX IT!!!!!! | |
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Oscat
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Joined: 8/23/2007
Msg: 215 | |
| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/13/2008 6:09:14 PM | I must admit that I have learnt quite a lot from this posting. Infact more than one could get from a lawyer (legal advice). My buddy has had a rude awakening reading some of the responses.
Many responses has asked what the girlfriend is bringing to the table. Well, she is an only child of a well-to-do parents, albeit not as well-off as my friend and family. She is a medical doctor by profession, so definitely no slouch. Both parents seem to be insistent on the pre-nup as both have lots at stake. My friend is aware that she can still grab at his protected "assests" via the kids (hopefully) hence the enquiry about the child support. He is not a mean person and neither is she, at least both are not at this stage of the relationship. But then again, we all understand that a lot can change overnite.
She is ok with the child support in the pre-nup (albeit it will be nullified by the courts)so long as he agrees to an "infidelity clause" (which will null and void the whole pre-nup) in it. That I have advised him against it....as the interpretation of infidelity by the courts is so broad. You dont have to be caught in the act. Any of her friends/woman can come to court and swear under oath to having an affair or sex with you. I have seen it happen. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/14/2008 12:06:22 AM | I'm not sure this will help, but what the hell... I'll try and explain. Right now neither party is angry and hell bent on revenge. At this point they are both well-intentioned and looking to make a decision they both believe is acceptable and in the best interests of their children. One or the other might not be in that same frame of mind when the time comes when the children's interests really need to be looked after should they find themselves split up. They're trying to protect their children from being subjected to intense court battles in the future by trying to settle it now.........
^^^That Guy Him....I will say I do understand the somewhat misguided intention of trying to negotiate such an agreement....but I don't understand how anyone is able (or feels it is morally right) to negotiate a standard of living for a child that has yet to be born....For example, how does the OP plan to adjust payments on inflation rates as the years go by....It is no surprise to any parent that children tend to cost more as they grow up....so is a parent with primary custody who settled on a pre-marital agreement of child-support expected to absorbe the rising costs?
This is exactly why the courts have a pre-determined table that basis support on the NCP's income.
[You say the crux of your arguement has nothing to do with money, what are the responsibilities he is looking to "shirk" by capping child support? You're making assumptions of his character, and if those assumptions are not based on money, I'd like to see what you based those assumptions on.]
^^^^ Are you kidding?.....How is it that you can expect a child that has had all the priveldges in life (like a Mom who was home all the time, access to any sports activities he wanted to participate in, the freedom to participate in any social function he choose too) begin to understand why he can't have them because his father imposed a cap on what he is worth after his parents divorced?
When I say that this type of agreement has little to do with money, I say that from experience....I have had to be the one to tell my sons they couldn't go on the class trip...or told them they had to pick which birthday party they wanted to go to the most when they got three invitations in one month. It isn't about money....it is about some NCP's punishing their kids by getting back at the other spouse....it is wrong..
The point is and should be...that both parties recognize that if there is a break-up....that the kids shouldn't suffer the bitterness and resentment that comes with divorce....if these two people in question recognize that point....then perhaps all they need is a moral agreement written down to remind each other of what they intended for their kids if things go badly... | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/14/2008 7:37:20 AM | Oh please people, can you take your silly little argument somewhere else, you are clogging up this thread with your off-topic sniping and NONE of you are looking good in this.
Both parents seem to be insistent on the pre-nup as both have lots at stake.
My family would be equally insistent on one. It is the smart thing to do.
She is ok with the child support in the pre-nup (albeit it will be nullified by the courts)so long as he agrees to an "infidelity clause" (which will null and void the whole pre-nup) in it. That I have advised him against it....as the interpretation of infidelity by the courts is so broad. You dont have to be caught in the act. Any of her friends/woman can come to court and swear under oath to having an affair or sex with you. I have seen it happen.
This one is a bit tricky… because it does speak to trust. He’s saying, in effect, that she might be the sort of person who will lie, and get one of her friends to lie – in court, to invoke an infidelity clause. I know some people will wonder how this is any different from the “trust issues” raised in asking someone to sign a pre-nup.
The distinction, or the one I see, is the difference in perspective between what you agree to when you are in love and what you want when your perspective has changed and you’re looking after “number one” on the way out. Looking after number one does not necessarily involve lying – it is a switch in priority. What you’re talking about is directly saying “you are the type of person who will lie”
Interesting to see cheating an issue on both sides of this one… you might have an affair (cheat)… countered with… you might lie by inventing I had an affair in order to get around our agreements (cheat).
My perspective is you cannot legislate integrity… so a pre-nup is not going to have someone behave any better than their nature anyway. Why ask it to do what it is not designed to do? Especially if you are attaching other issues to an unrelated item. That's just silly and is a good way to write an agreement that will get thrown out.
The way I would view an infidelity clause, IMO and remember I’m not a lawyer, rather than have it nullify the entire agreement (because then we're back to being supplicants to the courts to decide our lives - exactly what we were trying to avoid) is to reach agreement on settlement and then have the infidelity clause to reduceor increase the agreed settlement… by an agreed amount or different package. It is designed so that there is a consequence attached to breaking your vows... depending on which one transgressed. Kind of here is what we agree to if our relationship fails in spite of our best efforts… because a spirit of co-operation is appropriate if the two of you can’t make a go of it. It happens. However, here is a different agreement if someone does not act with integrity and works against the relationship by cheating. In that case, a consequence is appropriate.
Remember the court does not care who was at fault or who was injured when they decide settlement. That's what "no fault" means. If left to the courts... there is no consequence to affairs... they get the identical settlement package regardless of integrity. So, I suspect that some of the fears of proving infidelity are grossly exaggerated. A different package, rather than tossing the whole agreement, limits the "cost benefit" of one person lying in court. It's roughly $100,000 to go to court in my neck of the woods... no one is going to gamble that unless there is a significant potential benefit to gain or one to avoid losing.
I’m not sure I would open this can of worms IF it’s only purpose was to “get” something that wasn’t likely to be held up in the courts anyway. Look at it this way, she doesn’t NEED the infidelity clause to throw out the child support “limit”.
Suspect something else is going on here that they need to explore. Exploring the nature of a pre-nup can raise all kinds of issues, attachments and feelings… working through those can greatly strengthen your relationship and, oddly enough, give you a better shot at beating the odds. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/14/2008 7:49:48 AM | | Actually both of these issues, in the United States are controlled by State law, not Federal. Many issues can be controlled by a well thought out pre nupt. But they need to look at location of marriage and residency. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/14/2008 7:50:42 AM |
Suspect something else is going on here that they need to explore. Exploring the nature of a pre-nup can raise all kinds of issues, attachments and feelings… working through those can greatly strengthen your relationship and, oddly enough, give you a better shot at beating the odds.
I agree, margo... talking about it beforehand may just bring up some of the issues that both are likely to bring into the marriage.
Maybe they should have a marriage counsellor sit in the room while the lawyers write up the pre-nup. I think MOST (every?) couples ought to get counselling before they even live together.
She is ok with the child support in the pre-nup (albeit it will be nullified by the courts)so long as he agrees to an "infidelity clause" (which will null and void the whole pre-nup) in it. That I have advised him against it....as the interpretation of infidelity by the courts is so broad. You dont have to be caught in the act. Any of her friends/woman can come to court and swear under oath to having an affair or sex with you. I have seen it happen.
I'm curious to know if the infidelity clause applies to her as well. And, because of 'No Fault' divorce laws, the courts may just throw out the prenup based on that alone.
I dunno... I'm not a lawyer. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/14/2008 7:55:51 AM | | Child support can not be decided via a pre-nup. This is something that is mandated with the family court system. A pre-nup can detail division of assets and potentially any maintenance issues(called alimony in the past) but not child support. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/15/2008 11:27:27 AM | Any woman that would sign that prenup would need to get her head examined, not to mention that it probably would not stand up in court. Child support is usually determined by the father's current income not what he feels it should be or what he was earning 5-10 years earlier. The guy sounds like a complete control freak and she must be a moron.
And then you women wonder why well-to-do males defer marriage and children? Its because of entitlement attitudes like these! Frankly, this thread have firmed up my believes regarding the merits and perrils of marriage. So yes you are correct Carolann, I would need to have my head examined if I ever were to contemplate marriage.
Have you ever wondered why it is the guy who has nothing to loose (meaning financials and careers) that often propose and suggest children at an early stage of a relationship? | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/15/2008 11:28:50 AM |
Maybe they should have a marriage counsellor sit in the room while the lawyers write up the pre-nup. I think MOST (every?) couples ought to get counselling before they even live together. HEY! I gots uh idea! How about doing the divorce FIRST, and then, once things are smooved out, then get married! | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/15/2008 7:20:24 PM |
HEY! I gots uh idea! How about doing the divorce FIRST, and then, once things are smooved out, then get married!
Not a bad idea...
It's like that joke (joke?) where they guy says, " 'steada gettin' married again, I'm gonna just find some woman I really dislike and give 'er half of everything I have."
Or something like that. I never was very good with telling 'canned' jokes. | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/15/2008 9:23:41 PM | | Pre-nups with child support and infidelity clauses. OK. How about not getting married, maintain seperate residences and finances and just spend the night when you feel like it? Do they really, really want children? Perhaps a child-free lifestyle.... | |
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| Prenuptial Agreements and Maximum Child Support payment!
Posted: 1/17/2008 4:01:10 PM | I see nothing wrong in them being upfront about their fears etc etc!! At least they are admitting firsthand that there is at least a 50% chance that the relationship will fail.
Kudos to them. I wish all prospective couples will see this far down the line before signing away their wealth and peace of mind.!! | |
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