|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Speaking Intelligently on the Matter of the SF Zoo Killing
Posted: 1/6/2008 1:44:36 PM | hacksalot..I do understand credibility..but you stated the ENTIRE incident..which I do not support after researching the Zoo's past..anyway..toxicology screens are done for numerous reasons of which I have first hand knowledge but thank you for your explaining it to me..
Also the one "eye witness" to the preceding events before the tiger escaped and killed Carlos Sousa has given a statement saying she saw 4 men & the oldest brother was roaring at the tiger and Carlos sousa was NOT one of them..
Just because someone is in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people does not make one guilty of teasing a tiger & being responsible for decades of mismanagement & indifference on the Zoo's part is my point.
The reported empty vodka bottle is inside a car that the police have yet to be allowed to search ..please tell me how much "news" in this case early on has been proven a FACT ?.
Remember the shoe being found??..not..was a shoeprint.. | |
|
dmotz
|
Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 103 | |
| Speaking Intelligently on the Matter of the SF Zoo Killing
Posted: 1/6/2008 2:16:17 PM | | Damn...I have been looking everywhere for the kitty cats hide...I want to buy it...use it as a throw rug..I still can not believe all you peta tree huggers crying over an animal...hell...sell the skin...make some kitty stew and get over it! | |
|
| Vigil for...tiger at SF ZOO that killed a man.WTF?
Posted: 1/6/2008 2:16:55 PM | This is the latest I've been able to find online: ". . . an eyewitness has said that she saw a group of teenage boys taunting Tatiana, the tiger, including the two of the victims of the attack. Some of them -- the two brothers who were later wounded, though not the boy who was later killed -- were roaring at the animal, evidently, and she saw the tiger bristling, and she hurried her kids away." This witness' statement has yet to be substantiated. The first account of this witness' statement I read, stated that she saw four, not three, young men, at the tiger enclosure. As of yet, the news has only made reference to Mr. Sousa, and the two brothers. I'm curious to learn if, in fact, there was a fourth person involved, and what his account of what happened is.
I recall there being something written in a news report about Mr. Sousa, the young man that lost his life, drawing the tiger away from his friends. If that's the case, Mr. Sousa paid for his courage, to protect his friends, with his life.
Thus far, the two brothers who survived the attack have lawyered up, which they have a perfect right to do. But, their doing so begs the question as to why they would hire an expensive defense attorney, if they were mere victims of a tiger that got loose from its enclosure? Further raising questions, is that these brothers formed a pact, as it has been referred to in the news, not to tell the Police what they did. Thus far, their respective cell phones, nor the car they arrived to the zoo in, have been released for Police to analyze. Naturally, they have a perfect right to do everything that they have done; they haven't been charged with anything; yet.
Even the most objective of individuals could not help but wonder what has yet to come out where these two brothers are concerned. | |
|
| Speaking Intelligently on the Matter of the SF Zoo Killing
Posted: 1/6/2008 2:25:40 PM | Damn...I have been looking everywhere for the kitty cats hide...I want to buy it...use it as a throw rug..I still can not believe all you peta tree huggers crying over an animal...hell...sell the skin...make some kitty stew and get over it!
so, is it that you're too chicken shyt to look for the kid's hide?
peta and tree hugging have absolutely nothing to do with anything fool. the ONLY thing that matters is the irrefutable fact that tatiana had a right to do what she did, and the dids didn't
you really do need to lay off the shrooms, or at least put the crack pipe down for awhile | |
|
dmotz
|
Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 106 | |
| |
| Speaking Intelligently on the Matter of the SF Zoo Killing
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:11:50 PM | Orangeblossom,
So it was mismanagement at the zoo that compelled the tiger to jump the enclosure? Gee, thanks for clearing that up.
As for the vodka bottle, the following is a quote reported by AP.
"Meanwhile, police spokesman Sgt. Steve Mannina said Wednesday that investigators found an empty vodka bottle on the front seat of the car the trio drove to the zoo, which would be a violation of California's open container laws,"http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fn%2Fa%2F2007%2F12%2F30%2Fstate%2Fn091309S35.DTL
Are there any other facts you want me to verify for you? | |
|
| Speaking Intelligently on the Matter of the SF Zoo Killing
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:39:39 PM | Appreciate the reference to the articls Hacksalot. As more and more is written, more relevant information comes out about what happened. Until I read the article you referenced, I was lead to believe that the Police had not been able to get into the car the young men came to the zoo in. Apparently, the Police have been in the car. It will be most interesting to see what comes of the Police being allowed to search this car.
Something that the article you referenced mentioned, was that the moat in the tiger enclosure was empty, and that the fence was four feet shorter than the recommended height for US zoos. Mismanagement? Maybe. Oversight, maybe. There's no mention of how deep the moat would be if it were filled with water, or how far across it would have been either. Since cats don't like water, my guess is that the moat being empty, combined with the fence being short, could reasonably be argued as mismanagement of the tiger's enclosure. | |
|
| Speaking Intelligently on the Matter of the SF Zoo Killing
Posted: 1/6/2008 6:37:47 PM | hacksalot03..
I am sure you realize my sn is cottonblossom..but orangeblossom will do
You need to update your news sweetie..you "quoted an old report....NOT a FACT....apparently the first thing that popped up on google for you,and in your haste to take your shot at me you have shown YOUR ignorance and at the same time verified what I have been saying about running with the first thing..
Now..here is the latest update on google for you..try expanding your search next time ok..as of saturday according to FOXNews.com this is the latest "quote" NOT FACT..
San Francisco City Attorney seeks permission to search the car & cell phones belonging to the 2 brothers that survived the tiger attack but the victims are balking he said..
Deputy City Attorney James Hannawalt sent a letter Friday to the brothers lawyer asking him to make sure that they preserve any photographs and call logs,San Francisco Police have the phones but the brothers have refused to authorize investigators to examine the contents..Police Officials had PREVIOUSLY said that an empty vodka bottle was found on the front seat..but they have not searched it as of Saturday,01-05-08..anyway..the entire update is at this link for google news..
Here is my google ref for you so you can see just how ignorant you can be running with the news these days and quoting..not facts..and open container laws was not our debate..stay on topic ok..
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,32045,00.html-54k......
I do choose my battles carefully and for the most part verify & re-verify before I post,thanks.
Learn to dig a little..just a little lol..and microfilm is great..can even be better than google when researching the Zoos past which is my point..get it now? I do my homework..please refrain from personal attacks and stay on topic.
 | |
|
| Vigil for...tiger at SF ZOO that killed a man.WTF?
Posted: 1/7/2008 5:57:48 AM | Cotton, no, you don't have proof that Carlos was innocent - and again, Id love to see his rap sheet.
That said, stood his ground against a tiger?
Um, Darwin award.
Thank you, good night.
Messages this short may not be posted
Messages this short may not be posted
Messages this short may not be posted
Messages this short may not be posted
Messages this short may not be posted
Messages this short may not be posted | |
|
| Vigil for...tiger at SF ZOO that killed a man.WTF?
Posted: 1/7/2008 8:44:24 AM | not entirely true about cats. my cat is your average run of the mill housecat and while its rare, he has been known to jump in the bathtub, especially if its warm enough.
and no, to the animal rights freakos, I m not tossing him in there.
filler
Messages this short may not be posted
filler
Messages this short may not be posted
filler
Messages this short may not be posted
filler
Messages this short may not be posted | |
|
| Vigil for...tiger at SF ZOO that killed a man.WTF?
Posted: 1/7/2008 12:39:58 PM | Well. Shows my ignorance where Tigers are concerned. The last show I saw on the idiot box, they said that tigers didn't like water. All of the cats I've been around have hated water. I figured a cat is a cat, no matter how big it is.
Regardless, whether tigers like water, or not. If this moat was intended to keep the tigers in, I would imagine that it was intended to, at least, slow them down, so they had no real speed to climb the fence.
As for the animal rights people, I rather doubt that PETA would have me as a member. I not only permit hunting on my property, but, I intend to hunt it myself, along with my fiance', and her daughter. | |
|
| |
| Vigil for...tiger at SF ZOO that killed a man.WTF?
Posted: 1/7/2008 4:28:40 PM | Other than the usual, Oh my God, I'm so shocked, kind of thing, this is what I found that the local people to San Francisco are saying about the tiger attack:
Evidence shows they were climbing over the barrier and taunting the Tiger. I hope the perform an autopsy on the "victim" because I'm willing to bet he was on dope. On his myspace website his last post said he was "high".
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=44515158
Hmmmm. The last post on the website of the guy who was killed was that he was high. Now, there's someone who's going to be using the best of judgment.
The two survivors of the tiger attack aren’t telling what happened because they’re hoping to avoid prosecution and perhaps even to profit from their wrongdoing. They haven’t fabricated their story yet so we have to read between the lines to figure out what happened. The older brother was attacked first and may have been partially inside the tiger enclosure. It’s likely he not only teased, but also hurt the tiger in some way. Carlos Sousa and the younger brother helped him after the tiger attacked, but when the tiger turned on Carlos, the two brothers ran away leaving Carlos to be killed. The tiger chased down the remaining culprits because it was mad. If you hurt a large animal, it WILL chase you down.
Gee, the older of the two surviving brothers may have been partially inside of the tiger enclosure. Likely that this same individual not only teased, but also hurt the tiger in some way. Mr. Sousa, and the younger of the two survivors, helped the older of the survivors, when the tiger attacked. Then, the two survivors ran, leaving Mr. Sousa to die. But, Tatiana remembered who had teased an possibly hurt her. So, she went and found her attacker and evened up the score.
I hope my old timer's isn't working over time. But, I seem to recall that a nagging question in the back of my mind as to what these three young men might have done to provoke Tatiana to attack.
There are references to the moat in the tiger enclosure having been dry for "decades", and that others had been to the SF Zoo for a number of years looking at tigers, of all things, the fence was the same, substandard, height. Yet, Shazam, no tigers got out, and no one got hurt, in all of those "decades" prior to these three that were hurt on Christmas day.
I was unable to find any definitive answer to my question as to how high a tiger can jump vertically. However, one of the bloggers quoted a former tiger trainer, the substance of which was, that a tiger cannot climb 12 feet vertically, because of it's weight. Thus, the tiger had to have been let out of the enclosure by someone.
Questions are being answered, and it ain't lookin' so good for the so called victims. Gee, I wonder if maybe the SF Zoo's attorney will use Assumption of the Risk as a defense in the lawsuit that has, or soon will be, filed? I surely would.
I still have to wonder if the D.A. will file first degree, or second degree, murder charges against the two survivors? From what I've read, so far, it would appear that one, or both, of them loosed the beast that lead to Mr. Sousa's death. | |
|
| Vigil for...tiger at SF ZOO that killed a man.WTF?
Posted: 1/7/2008 5:21:12 PM | Lostcauz..Thank you for the post.. my point on the zoos responsibility is this..how can people exclude the ZOO from responsiblity??..You read the blog of the woman that was there just a couple of hours before the attack with her kids & left to cook her ham right..
So what would be the outcry of people if Tatiana had not been brought down & killed more people??..no matter who teased her (kindergartners tease)..just saying IF the brothers did..the ZOO had a responsibility that Tatiana would be protected & also the People in their Zoo..
I wouldn't step foot in that zoo with my child..but anyone that wants to absolve them of ANY responsibilty feel free to take your kids & grandkids right on with you..happens again..next time might be worse..then who is to blame?..
People should know that humans can be jerks whatever label/name anyone wants to give them..but Tatiana should NOT have been able to get out.. period.
They didn't even have a PA system working at the time..no security cameras??..that Zoo was operating on minimum money/budget from my research on it..should be investigated and the animals protected from the public & public protected from them..its simple.
Now this is my OPINION..what about the no mans land?..I believe the brothers went there & that is when it happened..when she finally got out..that has not even been mentioned & I doubt it will since then the Zoo will really be in trouble..anyway..enjoyed your post & thanks for respecting my viewpoint on this..
Oh!..The brothers should be ordered to pay for Carlos Sousas funeral..some of his friends/family put a video on youtube from Dec.8th where he was at a birthday party..and to see him like that..just does something to me knowing that those boys KNOW the truth & will not be man enough to step up * own up..
You & others seem to be convinced that Carlos was involved..I dont accept that & I pray the truth will be told..he had Honor helping his friends & I respect that even if he did get high..they left him to die after he helped them..cowards..RIP Carlos Sousa.
One more thing..In all the previous decades of no TIGER attacks..remember..Tatiana had only been at the zoo 2yrs..and 2 incidents in 2 years almost to the day but one year apart..when something occurs more than once..it no longer becomes a coincidence..I know their attorney will do his homework & if he finds all that crap about this Zoo & brings it out..no way these brothers will be convicted..Do some Research folks if you care to know the truth about the mismanagement & maintenance problems with this Zoo..it IS there..and if not corrected & monitored..This WILL happen again.. | |
|
| |
| Vigil for...tiger at SF ZOO that killed a man.WTF?
Posted: 1/7/2008 8:24:54 PM | I seriously doubt that the SF Zoo will be absolved of any responsibility in this matter. The SF Zoo may very well be held to pay out a rather sizable judgment. We will have to see what happens as this matter unfolds.
I have taken no position as to who did, or didn't do, what, when. I have posed questoins, and pointed out what has been reported, and/or blogged. Using what little information has been available, I have tried to ask reasonable questions, and draw reasonable conclusions.
In answer to your question, CottonBlossom, it is not I who decides what the SF Zoo's liability may be in this matter. It will be the facts of what took place, who did what, when, and how all of these things are view by the applicable criminal, and/or civil, law.
There are any number of ways that the SF Zoo may pursue to minimize, if not absolve itself of any, liability in this matter. Some examples are:
One of the questions this matter presents is as to whether the actions of these individuals were reasonably foreseeable by the SF Zoo. Teasing, and taunting of animals is reasonably foreseeable; climbing into their enclosure is not. No reasonable person could be foreseen to place himself into an enclosed area with a dangerous animal.
Even if the actions of these individuals were foreseeable, the SF Zoo still may not be liable, because there is a presumption that everyone will obey the law. Thus, no one can be held to foresee the criminal acts of others, in order to prevent them from happening. Otherwise, every victim, of every crime, could hold the city, county, state, country, in which they live, liable for any, and all damages, suffered at the hands of criminals.
There is also a defense that the SF Zoo could, and in my humble opinion should, raise. That defense is Assumption of the Risk. If one engages in a certain activity, they are presumed to have assumed the risks inherent to that activity. For instance, if you go skydiving, you assume the risk that your parachute may not open when it's supposed to. If you are killed because of this malfunction, your heirs cannot hold those connected with your skydiving liable for your death.
Nearly every account I have heard, and read, thus far, have indicated that Mr. Sousa was NOT involved in taunting Tatiana; it was the two brothers that have yet to give statements as to what happened that are alleged to have been taunting Tatiana. As I understand the latest accounts of Mr. Sousa's actions, he went to help one of the two brothers that was being attacked. When Tatiana turned on Mr. Sousa, the two brothers ran off, leaving Mr. Sousa to face Tatiana on his own.
According to accounts of the incident, that have come out, thus far, Mr. Sousa WAS involved; he was involved in saving the life of one of the two brothers who have yet to speak up about what happened.
Great emphasis has been placed upon the fence surrounding the tiger enclosure being below minimum recommended height, and the moat being empty. It wouldn't matter if Tatiana had been there two decades, or two hours. If it weren't Tatiana, it could have been any tiger, that attacked these individuals. Nothing I have heard, or read, indicates that Tatiana went across this empty moat, or climbed the fence, in order to escape.
If an escape proof enclosure exists, prison officials the world over would be most interested in learning of it. No enclosure, no matter how sophisticated, how well maintained, or how well monitored, is fool proof, or failure proof. That is not to say that the SF Zoo gets a PASS. The SF Zoo had dangerous animals contained within a substandard enclosure, and the appropriate agency/agencies will surely pursue the matter.
You may very well be correct, that the SF Zoo was operating on a minimum budget, nearly every zoo in the world works on a minimum budget. Zoos are businesses, and are expected to do two things; lower overhead costs, and raise the bottom line. Exotic animals are expensive to obtain, handle, and transport, not to mention their care, feeding, housing, and maintenance. The San Francisco area is one of the highest cost of living areas in the country today; it's no surprise the SF Zoo was working on a skinny budget.
As for the two brothers who have yet to speak up about what happened on that day. I am waiting to see what they have to say. I have a sneaking suspicion that the San Francisco D.A. may just convene a Grand Jury to determine whether they should be charged with Mr. Sousa's murder; which may just lead to their being sued for his Wrongful Death.
Unfortunately, information about what happened on the day that Mr. Sousa lost his life is not exactly free flowing. So, we will all have to be patient, and wait to see what is revealed with the passage of time. | |
|
| |
| Vigil for...tiger at SF ZOO that killed a man.WTF?
Posted: 1/8/2008 6:50:39 AM | | While were being entertainned watching them in their caged homes they are looking at us like a bloody rare steak dinner, never really thought about that before..I guess it would make sense then not to f*ck with them..Duh! | |
|
| |
| Vigil for...tiger at SF ZOO that killed a man.WTF?
Posted: 1/9/2008 3:13:57 AM | CottonBlossom: The Police don't get to make the decisions as to whether charges are, or are not, filed against someone. The Police Department investigates, and the DA's office makes the decision as to whether charges are filed.
There is a LOT of information flying about where this matter is concerned. Just as I've suggested before. Perhaps it would be a good idea to wait and see how this mater unfolds.
All of this tree hugger, PETA, character assassination, muslinging garbage doesn't do anyone any good. Think maybe we can cut that out? | |
|
| Vigil for...tiger at SF ZOO that killed a man.WTF?
Posted: 1/9/2008 9:34:42 AM | Losatcauz
Thanks for you response
I did expect better. Why would I "throw out" Character Assassination"..that IS what Geragos is talking & was just wanting your input..its okay..I guess it was okay to sling mud about the false reports at Sousa & the brothers but when FACTS are now coming out it is garbage??..
And you really should read more carefully..I posted saying that was the latest update that contained Facts..thought you wanted to know things?..Information??..you did ask for information correct??
Mayhaps people should have waited to seehow this unfolded before the degrading comments were made based on FALSE information..so no I don't think I will wait..you can..not me..thanks anyway..
Also you mentioned that Zoos operate on a budget..well they aren't so poor they didn't manage to hire that new publicity team to put this garbage out in the first place..and I wouldn't call the zoo directos salary of apprx. 330,000 a year pennies..or the fact that when he was at the LA ZOO more than a dozen animals escaped..or the FACT animal rights activist have asked for his resignation saying his stunts such as public feeding agittated the animals..
Do YOU have any facts to post yet Lostcauz?..you seemed well versed in legal jargon I thought you would want to help? And now that facts about the Zoo are coming out..you want me to hold off & cut it out..Not happening..I will continue to post updates on this & disappointed in your response,greatly..but you do have the same right as I to your posting & viewpoint I recogonize that..you emailed me asking about the zoo,your very contradictory so I will refrain with you in the future as I do recognize what rolls down my back.
Should have asked people to cut it out days ago imo..at the least the brothers did have the respect to show at Carlos funeral..he is finally resting..not many were willing to shut up before about his death and now that FACTS are coming out about the Zoo..you want me to cut it out,lol..wow,,Carlos was called so many degrading names in death on this very forum without proof of his actions & yet not one will admit they could have mis-judged..figures.
| |
|
| Vigil for...tiger at SF ZOO that killed a man.WTF?
Posted: 1/10/2008 12:33:31 PM | | Op, you didn't read the whole story. The kids had sling shots. They were antagonizing the tiger. I am on the tigers side. It is a damn shame a endangered species animal had to die, because some dumb ass kids, wanted to aggrivate it! | |
|
| Vigil for...tiger at SF ZOO that killed a man.WTF?
Posted: 1/10/2008 12:45:39 PM | ^^^^^^^
Need to read the news,ma'am.
No slingshots found on the kids.
That was leaked to the press by the zoo's media group.
There's been no proof shown that the injured people nor the dead kid taunted the tiger. | |
|
| Vigil for...tiger at SF ZOO that killed a man.WTF?
Posted: 1/10/2008 3:13:26 PM | It was a living creature and one people were attached to, so what's wrong with having a vigil for it?
Likewise I went to Herman's Birthday Party. Herman is Como Zoo's polar bear and I sat around for an hour plus outside in the near zero cold watching him eat his Birthday "Cake" made of two tires stuffed with fish in them and lots of blue food dye which he ended up wearing all over his white coat. It was pretty funny and cute in its own way and I wasn't alone either -- there were about two or three dozen of us diehard animal lovers who watched plus one local news crew.
Your ability to excercise your heart by feeling compassion for an animal strengthens your heart, not weakens you.I find it sad, OP, that you don't see it that way. | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
