| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/6/2008 8:45:39 PM | If the ultimate building block of everything is energy and energy can only be defined in terms of results or transformation, then the essence of consciousness or thought is energy.
As for a machine one day being able to read our thoughts by interpreting neurological data, I believe science is already well on its way toward this end. But even when it does become possible to read all our thoughts, this does not prove our thoughts are strictly chemical (neurological). More accurately, perhaps, is to say that chemical reactions are the interpretative data chunks that translate our thoughts into understandable bits. The chemical reaction works as a catalytic converter taking the thought and delivering it to sensory intelligibility.
Is consciousness an illusion? Yes because we are limited by our senses and no because it is real for each of us individually despite the interpretation by our inferior sense organs.
Our senses are not as developed as those of some other animals and thus our thoughts will be different as a result of this. For example, our sense of smell is not nearly as developed as that of a cat's or dog's. Nor is our hearing as developed as highly as either the dolphin's or dog's. And a cat's night vision is superior to humans. Many animals have more specialized senses than humans. As a result, their understanding about what they see, hear, taste, feel, and smell is far more acute than that of humans, thus giving them heightened images. If humans were endowed with superior senses, consciousness, or thoughts, would be less illusory in terms of reality. Our reality, therefore, depends upon the efficiency of our senses. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/7/2008 7:22:36 PM | | My opinion; consciousness is not an illusion - but it is very difficult to describe... I personally have a theory - at least it satisfied my curiousity. However, I cannot explain it without using quantum mechnics. I strongly believe neuroscience without quantum interpretation or any type of classical mechanic approaches are doomed to fail to explain consciousness. One really needs to understand quantum mechanics first in order to understand or at least start to discover the essence of consciousness. Again, without QM, there is no way that one can comprehend consciousness. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/9/2008 12:46:42 PM | it is our human mind that creates limitations of the senses..if you go beyond your mind into the space of consciousness then...there are no limitations...there is only pure energy vibrations and frequencies and an innate intellignance that permiates the universe..but thoughts exists in this realm..so one must wonder about mind?and mind energy..what is it made of...perhaps...'pure supreme conscious energy' vibrating at a very high fine frequency ..that allows all in this space to be telekinetic....to all realms of existance in the universe..
I would have to disagree with you in regards to saying that our senses are not developed as in some other species..and yet agree at the same time..
We have the capacity to develop these inner senses and intutive awarenesses through deep meditative practices as the anceint civializations previously had, but unfortunely not many people "choose' to..so the inner senses are not developed .The same is for th development of the human mind and consciousness...many "choose ' not to develop the mind further that what 'science ' deems possible...but yet...total possible..
When you access the realm of consciousness...pure consciousness...you will realize that there is not darkeness nor is it silent...but radiates light and sound vibrations ripple throughout..one would also realise that reality as many expereince it in this physical world...is an illusion of thier limited mind..becasue the mind sees limitations therefore produces a limited world..the mind is like a machine in which conscousness flows...the mind does not know what it does..it does what we tell it to do with our conscious mind and thougths..so if we think something negative..that is what it produces if we think something positive that is what is created..so..thought forms are energy..and consciousness...and at times our mind allows the subconscious to send vibrations through and we wonder why we act the way we do when we do not want to or why our life is so shitty!...so ...think...with a conscious mind..watch your thoughts just for alittle while and then watch your life..for you will see these universal principals in action...for it universal laws at work..! and all human kind is connected to this pure consciousness that radiates in the universe..so you see how one could be clairvoyant or possess esp...it is easy if developed! | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/13/2008 12:52:50 AM |
so here is the question: If they built a machine that could "read" your mind would that prove that thought exists ONLY as chemical reactions in your brain?
Where else could consciousness/thought exist? | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/14/2008 7:23:08 PM | | All things that are illusions are illusions to consciousness. How could consciousness itself be an illusion? That would be a contradiction. Consciousness is the most real thing. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/18/2008 1:11:48 AM | | No, consciousness is not an illusion. You think therefore you have consciousness. Our preception of reality may be a relative illusion, as what is real (actual reality) is probably beyond our ability to preceive it given our limited senses and minds. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/18/2008 11:43:57 AM | This is a great question.
In the west neuroscience believes that the brain creates the mind. That all thought and consciousness is a product of the brain.
In the east we have the belief that the brain is like a radio and that it simply picks up on the mind and translates it through into the body. Much the same way a radio picks up on radio waves.
Now, if you use this radio analogy, you can say that neuroscientists looking inside the radio see all these complex circuits and they think that the beautiful symphonies coming out of the speaker of the radio are being created and composed by the circuits.
Of course we know that's ridiculous. The radio didn't create the music. The music existed already and was buzzing through the universe in the form of radio waves. The radio merely channels those waves and translates them back into sound waves coming out of the speaker.
Are Neuroscientists right about consciousness being a product of the brain?
I think they are partially. I think that both the East and the West are right. Deffinitely there's a lot the brain does produce. But I think the mind by en large is actually a non-local phenomenon. And that mind and consciuosness exist beyond the physical confines of the body.
Why? Because we have far too many instances of psychical and paranormal phenomena suggesting that we survive physical death.
Look up Dr. Raymond Moody
Dr. Dean Radin
Dr. Steven Ianson
Dr. Brian Weiss.
www.victorzammit.com (great book you can read online free)
and many many other brilliant scientists who have risked their careers and dedicated their money to seriously giving this question some proper attention.
We do have proof of life after death. Unfortunately we also have knuckle headed academic minded materialists who face huge cognitive dissonance when it comes to accepting the consept of life after death, because it would mean changing their entire world view. Which is not easy for anyone to do. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/18/2008 4:28:57 PM | | wouldn't thought existing as chemicals cause them to be tangible therefore real rather than an illusion? As a few have said already conscious thought being chemical in no way creates feelings of inferiority for me. It does bring up quantum physics though and whether we want to believe the thoughts come from within or are from without that is an interesting concept? Thoughts may be energy and have chemical basis but where does that energy come from and where does it go? Who said crack a dead head open it doesn't live again even though we can make it play a piano? Really energy doesn't disapate it just changes forms. So if our thoughts are energy what happens when we die? | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/18/2008 8:07:49 PM | Something as important as consciousness does not need proof!
The word consciousness means something definitive, more or less biological: in the sense of being conscious of pleasure or pain, joy or sorrow, but it does not mean much else.
If consciousness is an illusion, then the unconscious is not an illusion.
There are gradients of being aware, I suppose, even gradients of being conscious. I for one have better vision than my friend, and better hearing than my friend, therefore I am more "conscious" of fine print, and low volume sounds than my friend, doe that make me more aware of illusions?
Biochemically, consciousness is something different. It is the awareness of the self, and there is actually a certain part of the brain, the cerebral cortex, or cerebellum, which is the seat of consciousness.
Consciousness can be no more illusion than reality. The reason is that the awareness of reality and illusion is something else: it being more judgmental than being certain as in apodictic certainty.
The term illusion connotes a definition of certainty which could be derived from logic, or feeling, and may be proved with logic or feeling.
The word conscious means: "with knowing" from the ancient Greek and Latin perhaps suggesting beside knowing. The latin prefix "con" means with, and science is derived from the suffix "scious" having the "quality" of knowing, [cognoscenti]
There's nothing finer than working it through.
Illusions are not false, but rather images of mixed meaning, perhaps as beautiful as birth itself.
chao
tru | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/19/2008 10:00:56 PM | I think that an individual's consciousness, while not a total illusion, is a second order reality. That is, it all involves a level of neural processing. I'm reminded of the reality order of color: The wavelengths that comprise the spectrum are first order reality. How the brain/eye work together to interpret wavelengths as color is second order. Without eyes and brains, color does not exist.
Reality is of course much more complex but still, each persons perception of reality is truly a product of how their brains process the information it is given. I'm not suggesting anything weird that maybe UFOs and ghosts are real if you have the right brain to perceive it, just that the level of meaning/importance or emotional investment applied to an object or process is unique to the observer. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/19/2008 10:05:56 PM | One other thing:
Why do people still put up the straw man argument that there are 2 great scientific magesteria; one in the "west" and one in the "east", when what they really mean is the separation between emperical science and supernatural belief? I'd be insulted if I was a scientific doctor or researcher working in India or China. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/20/2008 8:20:42 AM | Is consciousness an illusion?
Well things I did a long time ago makes me believe that the only thing that is not an illusion is Consciousness.
And what I mean is that if any of you may remember that a strong hit of LSD shattered what I thought consciousness was. And for those who do remember, you will also identify with the fact that LSD made everything seem so F-----g Real. The life we lead is the illusion, but I do not think that we fully understand the fullness of total consciousness as yet. We are to confined in thought of the superficial mentality. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/22/2008 1:48:41 AM | We are composed of chemicals and electrical impulses...among other components. Consciousness is a byproduct of these elements. This fact, in and of itself, makes consciousness real and not an illusion.
What is an illusion? It is a process created by the mind. The mind (brain is chemical/electrical) and therefore, very real in structure.
Our physical bodies constrain these elements until death, at which time, energy, electrical impulses and chemicals are dissipated out into the atmosphere once the regulated organs cease to operate. Many term this process the 'soul' being released/set free. This makes perfect sense.
Simply because this energy is released does not mean it is an absolute that it would go astray. There is an equal equation that it can remain intact... just in a different form. Maybe this is one explanation for deja' vu. One doesn't know till they are in that state of being.
We can now measure and with these measurements know that human energy does still exist after the death of the body and still is capable of exchange in communication with those still in their bodies with operational organs. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/22/2008 6:12:50 PM | Enable to answer you would have to distinguish between what is consciousness, what an illusion is and do they coexist.
This is actually based on Rene Descartes argument. The "Cogito, ergo sum" based on his Meditations that his mind is consciousness which the Supreme Being "God" is deceiving his thoughts which his reality is an illusion. At the end Descartes comes to the conclusion that his consciousness of thoughts are self evident to him that his himself exist which he calls "Cogito, ergo sum" "I Think therefore I am". The subject and preposition which proves the self and the existence which was 1st argued by St Thomas Aquians (Summa Theologica).
Then the argument of reality and illusions by Berk and Lock. The Objective and Subjective argument. The reality of the physical world which is the Objective and the Subjective which reality is within the mind which I think is more to the truth. Our own reality is what we believe. For example, do you believe 9-11 is a conspiracy. The subjective realists would say yes.
So can so here is the question: If they built a machine that could "read" your mind would that prove that thought exists ONLY as chemical reactions in your brain?
This is more science then philosophy, for a human organism it is chemical where the chemicals in the nerves are rapidly firing and discharging positive and negative ions. For the machine it picks up these sensors as electic waves. So can we conclude that and in reality that both nerves and electical wiring work the same way. Both nerves and copper wiring can conduct electricty or current. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/23/2008 4:17:53 AM | | Interesting Question, but could a machine be quick enough to read a thought? what is a thought? if you look at the universe its a massive place, so in real terms we are probably actualy here in the universe for a spit nano second, therefore not enough time to think ;) | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/23/2008 3:02:29 PM | Interesting Question, but could a machine be quick enough to read a thought?
At the time Dr. Carl Sagan wrote his masterpiece "The Cosmos". Dr Sagan mentioned in his book that a thought is a "Google of a second" and at the time the mind could process a thought faster then a modern computer.. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/23/2008 4:17:55 PM | When a computer program finally gains the appearance of consciousness through the use of a self-teaching algorithm, then it will be interesting if people will accept that consciousness or if they will claim that is an illusion but human consciousness is not. I foresee another argument that will make the evolution/creationism fight seem tame.
Simply because this energy is released does not mean it is an absolute that it would go astray. There is an equal equation that it can remain intact... just in a different form. Maybe this is one explanation for deja' vu.
As an aside concerning deja vu, I am sure that neurologists have thought about the possibility of a nerve impulse laying down a parallel track at the time of creating the initial memory. This would suddenly appear to be a memory of the same thing but slightly different... perhaps interpreted by the brain to be another time instead of the exact same memory twice. The brain is surprisingly plastic in regard to memory. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/25/2008 10:47:35 AM |
At the time Dr. Carl Sagan wrote his masterpiece "The Cosmos". Dr Sagan mentioned in his book that a thought is a "Google of a second" and at the time the mind could process a thought faster then a modern computer..
The mind is still much better than any computer can be. Or will be for at least a few more decades (but I am confident they will run into more problems than they think)
In fact this video is an incredibly amusing comparison by one of the leading minds in our country -- I love the part where he explains that even a cockroach is smarter than the mars rover! It'd be too dumb to move itself if a creature were to swat at it but a cockroach knows better. He thinks the projections are that our minds will be equal to computer power between 2030 and 2040... I still say they'll be more bumps in the road than they realize. Either way its a fascinating listen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H74dqU-ybw
He also talks about a 5 year old knowing millions of common sense rules we have yet to even program one computer to do. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/25/2008 6:50:33 PM | | Should be interesting to see how much that changes once the quantum computers make the scene. Anything that can simultaneously analyze EVERY possible solution to a problem will give the human mind a run for its money. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/26/2008 10:43:07 AM | Even though there is no unified theory of consciousness, it would be unwise to merge science with religious, political or philosophical concepts because the former is based on the empirical method and the latter from the axiomatic method.
Before one answers the question “is consciousness an illusion”, one has to define both consciousness and illusion.
What I call “Objective Consciousness” is similar to “Access Consciousness” (Philosophy) or “Awareness” (Psychology) or “Alpha Waves” (Neurophysiology). To actively perceive and interact with reality. To be aware of surroundings, movements, sights, sounds, etc. Objective awareness. Outside ourselves.
What I call “Subjective Consciousness” is our sense of self. It includes awareness of concepts, intentions, setting goals, formulating strategies, creativity, epiphany, intuition, self reflection, self efficacy, self awareness, happy, sad, embarrassed, frustrated, stressed, etc. Subjective awareness. Inside ourselves.
An illusion is a sensory misperception such as an optical illusion. Like MC Escher’s’ “Impossible Reality” lithographs. A deliberate manipulation of drawings to create visual misperceptions or illusions. So an illusion is a miscalculation of incoming sensory data.
Consciousness is concerned with objective and subjective awareness rather than misperception of incoming sensory data. We know objective and subjective awareness exists because it can be measured and quantified. EEGs, PETs, MRIs. Only when we make mistakes or errors in our perception, can we can then say our conscious awareness was an illusion. But our awareness as a construct-mechanism is not an illusion. Awareness is an input process rather than an outcome like illusion. Now the question becomes where does consciousness originate. What powers awareness. Where does the energy come from. Can we measure it. Can we manipulate it. These are the hard questions.
Brain neurons change from instant to instant. It’s truly amazing to watch how fast dendrites can migrate from one neuron axon to another. Dendrites choose which neurons to associate with and when to start an action potential (nerve impulse). This is a huge clue to solving the hard questions. Is a dendrite capable of thought? In my opinion, the Quantum approach has the ability to answer this question. As a side note neurophysiological and neurocognition researchers do not explore theories of consciousness. They would be ridiculed.
Consciousness defined by Quantum Physics is superposition of multiple possible states and location. For “String” theorists you are a set of vibrating packets of energy (wave functions) that cannot be located until decoherence takes place (somebody looks or observes where you are). The “Objective-Reductionist” would term this decoherence self-collapse into one reality, “Multiple World” proponents would say you have 10, 11 or 12 possible realities. Let’s stick with String and Objective-Reductionism.
Look at the evidence. The “Double Split” experiment reliably shows that wave functions do interfere with each other. Like throwing 2 stones into the same pond and watching some waves merge to form a larger wave while others cancel each other out. And waves behave a certain way when their NOT being watched and behave completely different when they are being watched. Moreover, coherent wave particles are in superposition (for example, one rotating up, one down). And what is done to one wave particle effects the other at the speed of light. They are entangled. Even at great physical distances. What Einstein called “Spooky Action at a Distance”.
This implies that environment strings near and far, visible and invisible influence dendrite micro-tubule strings (in my opinion, where “physic energy” resides). When an environment string has the exact same vibration frequency as a microtube -energy is formed, dendrite reacts, starts neuro-chemical action potentials, neurons fire, neuronal networks fire ….creating subjective and/or objective awareness of a person, place, thing, feeling, emotion.
So our objective reality is our conscious mind taking sequential, frame by frame, snapshots of our perceptions. Like a moving picture show integrating both objective and subjective awareness. This is our concept of time. And if these hypotheses were validated, it would mean that our conscious awareness is driven primarily from inside our minds …our brain creates the reality we see in front of us. Reverse awareness, but not an illusion.
In terms of brain vs. computer ....after replication of the 100 billion neurons and 100 trillion more synapses, it will take another 100 years to replicate the complex pattern of dendrite decision making coupled with 360 action potential propogation such as Tonic spiking, Phasic bursting, Fast spiking, Thin-spiking. Then another 100 years to replicate the vertical and horizontal linkages that replicate autonomic activities such as concept formation, hypothesis testing, intuition, self awareness or consciousness.  | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/26/2008 2:17:05 PM | | if a machine could read my mind then thoughts might well b a a chemical reaction but the fact that each individual has his own unique data is pretty conscious to me | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/26/2008 11:21:12 PM | there is an overwhelming amount of research and scientific study into this subject that is not socially accepted (for many reasons). there is also an extensive amount of documented human experience to corroborate these scientific studies and findings.
in short - our thoughts, memories, and emotions are stored holographically within the fabric of reality (space-time). our brains are meerly the 'terminals' to access this information.
while there many many books out there on this subject, my personal favorite and most thorough is - THE HOLOGRAPHIC UNIVERSE by Michael Talbot
http://www.amazon.com/Holographic-Universe-Michael-Talbot/dp/0060922583
Author Talbot writes that ". . . there is evidence to suggest that our world and everything in it. . . are also only ghostly images, projections from a level of reality so beyond our own it is literally beyond both space and time." Hence, the title of his book. Beginning with the work of physicist David Bohm and neurophysiologist Karl Pribram, both of whom independently arrived at holographic theories or models of the universe, Talbot explains in clear terms the theory and physics of holography and its application, both in science and in explanation of the paranormal and psychic. His theory of reality accommodates this latest thinking in physics as well as many unresolved mind-body questions. This well-written and fascinating study is recommended for science collections.
- Hilary D. Burton, Lawrence Livermore National Lab., Livermore, Cal. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/27/2008 7:06:27 PM | One could also say or suggest that it is 'misrepresentation' which delude, or resolve, as illusions.
The question has to be reformulated. The question asked is: "IS CONSCIOUSNESS AN ILLUSION'?
This is a trick question.
The word conscious means no more nor more less than 'awareness' and the state of being 'conscious' means no more than 'being aware'. There is no qualification here since to be aware both means being aware of illusions and realities, and any gradients between the two extremes or polarities.
The problem is that illusion does not mean 'misrepresentation' or 'misrepresentation' and the proof of that is in art and psychology: a secondary illusion is what gives great art it's depth, and sensuality.
In law and in logic it is also illusion as well which separates justice from injustice, or banality from diginity. I cannot provide examples....you know them.
There is no law which embeds in the brains of all beings that they are equal, but we see many instances where some beings are more equal than others.
chao
TRU | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/27/2008 11:40:21 PM | Repeating the question: "IS CONSCIOUSNESS AN ILLUSION"??
Illusion does not mean -unreal or not real. That's the metaphorical use of the word.
Also, illusion is not an act of deceiving, deception, or delusion which is obsolete. Rather, an illusion is a false or misleading impression of reality caused by sensory misperception.
Go to a carnival. Find a fun house with "fun" mirrors. Look in a mirror. You see yourself severely distorted. You know it's an illusion. If consciousness is an illusion, then your looking at your consciousness in the mirror.
Magicians and ventriloquists create illusions. But when we see a trick, we know it's an illusion and we resolve it. Then we wait for the next trick (illusion). This implies that illusions are made to be resolved. And they are.
So, if consciousness is an illusion that means our reality repeatedly stops and starts; because we have a natural tendency to solve illusions and move on. And also implies that awareness is not "ON" all the time.
Consciousness and illusion may come from the same universe of psychological fruit, but they are apples and oranges at the ground level. And it would appear to be an illusory correlation to think that illusion is consciousness. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/28/2008 6:03:31 AM |
Illusion does not mean -unreal or not real. That's the metaphorical use of the word.
I suspect the OP's question is using the metaphorical aspect of the word illusion, it just sounds better than to ask, "Is consciousness real?", because the origianl implies the method by which the reality is suspect.
This implies that illusions are made to be resolved. And they are.
This statement implies much more purpose than can be proven. And it is usually only the curious that feel the need to resolve an illusion. Others are comforted by them.
So, if consciousness is an illusion that means our reality repeatedly stops and starts; because we have a natural tendency to solve illusions and move on. And also implies that awareness is not "ON" all the time.
Totally agree that awareness is not "ON" all the time, and I think that it would be easy to set up an experiment to demonstrate that. But that does not mean that our reality stops and starts just because our awareness of it does. If we concede that there is a reality to consciousness, then it would seem to be there at some level whether or not we are actively using it. The subconscious usually handles reality quite well also. | |
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