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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 2/29/2008 8:02:46 PM | In this case illusions are divided into two types: (1) primary illusions, and (2) secondary illusions.
I agree that in the former case a primary illusion, epistemically, cannot be false, and that a primary illusion can only be a true 'impression' of reality.
In the case of a secondary illusion, if it is sensory, then it can be a misrepresentation, but that still does not mean that it is false. Rather the secondary illusion when it is a misrepresentation, is subjective. That is to say that the secondary illusion is true, temporally, for the subject.
A good example is when music is heard. For some listeners they may be unable to appreciate classical music, but for others classical music may be so sensually gratifying that it is experienced on a different order. For instance some deaf people can experience music even though their ears hear nothing, rather they experience sound through their sense of touch.
Then there are others who experience and have described 'nuance' in music, and in dance.
S. K. Langer has defined illusion as both primary and as secondary. It is therefore a matter of judgment whether or not the illusion is false or true: that makes the question: "Is consciousness an illusion?" not a clear question.
Illusion is not a contrary of reality, it is the essence of reality. Thus the question should be rephrased: "Is the content of consciousness an illusion?"
To that we can assure ourselves that it is illusion, but illusion which in-itself is situated on a gradient: being at the same time or not at the same time, both subjective and objective.
Those illusions which are inter-subjective are perceptions of a different order than say illusions which are not inter-subjective [eg. mystical experiences, nuance, sublimity].
We may even say that those 'misrepresentations' of 'false perceptions' are simply 'competing illusions.
For instance a sailor described by Aristotles first perceives a lighthouse along the shore line, but coming closer realizes that the lighthouse is actually a bonfire, not a lighthouse.
The error here is only one of judgment regarding the cause of the light, rather than the existence of light.
This 'failure' or 'false perception' is not in fact false. At a distance both the lighthouse and the bonfire look identical. However as the human mind realizes upon closer examination that the light is coming from a fire, the fact never changes. The error arises is only in relation to distance and nearness. The objective fact never changes, but it is the 'judgment' which changes, and the illusion never really changes, except when the distance is reduced: the light becomes flame.
Therefore there is a huge difference between what is a representation and what is a perception. In fact what presents is the light common to both fires and lighthouses, what Hume called "presentational immediacy" is what is perceived and what is immediately present.
Thus there is only one idea which has any reality, and that idea is the idea of the One. The rest is actually illusion since no idea can represent illusion in entirety, except the idea of the One. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 3/1/2008 5:02:29 AM | Well thought out post until the last line
Thus there is only one idea which has any reality, and that idea is the idea of the One. The rest is actually illusion since no idea can represent illusion in entirety, except the idea of the One.
You lost me on the One. Could you define that term a little better so I can follow to the conclusion of what seemed to be a cogent argument up to that point. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 3/1/2008 11:19:42 AM | There are a few philosophies that talk about being one, becoming one, keeping the one, ect ect.
Most famous probably would be Taoists idea of becoming one with the universe.
Generally enlightenment is the knowledge that you are one with the cosmos and nature of course, this and other practices should enable you to lead a better life.
More to it but that is it in a nutshell. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 3/3/2008 8:53:00 PM | I am not sure. Most ideas have no reality, that is an idea has no concrete representations. Thus for an idea to have the sense of being real must be inclusive all that is, in the sense that when one uses the idea, All or One or Total or Whole must be a limit beyond which there is no more.
Actually it was Bradley, a philosopher, who determined that the One represents the only idea having reality. I just added some possible synonyms which can be used to replace the meaning of the One. Physically that is true too. because the Universe by definition is unitary.
There is a spurious argument in Timaeus, Plato, where one of the protagonists suggests that the Universe is One [there is only one universe], otherwise the author of the universe would be jealouse! Of course that is one certainty we know that the author/creator of the universe is not jealous.
It seems at the end of the day that the idea versus the real has to be joined at some point, and that is where the Whole is represented:
When humans make reference to things in general, or simplify, we speak of the whole. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 3/4/2008 12:15:44 AM | | I guess I can't wrap my mind around why it is necessary to join the reality of ideas to physical reality with an unflinching One. I can see the relationship between the two, but it seems to not be a One, but rather a constantly mutating organization that waxes and wanes. Hardly a unity. But this certainly isn't the only concept that I have not been able to grasp and undoubtedly will not be the last. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 3/4/2008 8:14:20 AM | Each unity consists of 'identities' and 'differences'; an organization is itself an organ.
The universe can be likened to an onion, with each layer of the onion a 'concentric' realm of meaning, and interspersed are archetypes that connect each realm [roots at the bottom as well as at top]. Though the onion is just a symbol, it resembles a Unity of Identity and Difference in several ways, just as an inverted tree also represents symbolical meaning.
The inverted tree has its roots in heaven and its fruits on earth.
This is not a new category of the understanding, I suppose.
Phenomenon and illusion are closely related in meaning. The root meaning of phenomenon is 'what shows' or 'what appears'....The 'what' becomes the 'content of consciousness'.
The idea of the One has its equivalent physical reality in the Universe [single version].
Perhaps! | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 3/4/2008 8:13:52 PM | | ;>) This is beginning to sound like the plot to "The Matrix", which I suppose is appropriate for the original question. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 3/5/2008 12:10:59 AM |
Generally speaking, consciousness is not an illusion.
However, an illusion is consciousness for some. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 10/7/2008 12:39:47 PM |
Take the blue pill or the red pill and you'll find out Neo.
How about "take the blue pill AND the red pill and you'll...
. . .
The fact that consciousness can question itself proves it's existence, much like freedom being owed to any being which can formulate the existence of it.
There you go. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 10/7/2008 12:58:04 PM | Although consciosness is a direct result of brain chemistry (and cannot exist without a living brain), this does not make it an illusion. Chemical reactions are real, after all.
It also does not make it trivial or predictable. Chaos theory proves that immensely complex results can and often do arise from simple, deterministic causes.
The long-term behaviour of a system consisting of a mere THREE objects is unpredictable, and the brain has trillions of connections! (Note: these same observations are also the reason that free will exists even though the universe is deterministic.) | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 10/8/2008 5:39:17 AM | It all depends on what you mean by an "illusion". When you see a tree, what is it that your ACTUALLY perceiving?
It's a bit like that old saying - if a tree falls in the woods and there is nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound? | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 10/9/2008 2:41:41 AM | Re: the subject matter question; i side with those scientists (in this case E. O. Wilson) who believe that "outside our heads there is a freestanding reality. Only madmen and a scattering of constructivist philosphers doubt its existence. Inside our heads is a reconstitution of reality based on sensory input and the self-assembly of concepts. Input and self assembly, rather than an independent entity in the brain - the 'ghost in the machine,' in the philosopher Gilbert Ryle's famous derogation - constitute the mind. The alignment of outer existence with its inner representation has been distorted by the idiosyncrasies of human evolution... "That is, natural selection built the brain to survive in the world and only incidentally to understand it at a depth greater than is needed to survive. The proper task of scientists is to diagnose and correct this misalignment."
In my own words, i believe human consciousness is the greatest thing in the Universe. It strikes me as the truest representation of 'the whole being greater than the sum total of the parts'. And i also believe most of us take it for granted because we are born into it. Without consciousness, we might possess tools and other artifacts but there would be no civilization, no culture. I do wonder which came first, our intelligence or our consciousness? I do know that people who are self-knowledgeable tend to be more intelligent than people who are not... but this observation still begs the question.
This will become lengthy still i wish to note it because it demonstrates just what an incredible piece of machinery the human brain is. The following is E. O. Wilson's answer to the 'machine' or Artificial Intelligence question (he cites 2 problems):
"The functional obstacle is the overwhelming complexity of inputs of information to and through the human mind. Rational thought emerges from continuous exchanges between body and brain through nerve discharges and blood-borne flow of hormones, influenced in turn by emotional controls that regulate mental set, attention, and the selection of goals. In order to duplicate the mind in a machine, it will not be nearly enough to perfect the brain sciences and AI technology, because the simulation pioneers must also invent and install an entirely new form of computation - artificial emotion, or AE.
"The second, or evolutionary, obstacle to the creation of a humanoid mind is the unique genetic history of the human species. Genetic human nature - the psychic unity of mankind - is the product of millions of years of evolution in environments now mostly forgotten. Without detailed attention to the hereditary blueprint of human nature, the simulated mind might be awesome in power, but it would be more nearly that of some alien visitor, not of a human.
"And even if the blueprint were known, and even if it could be followed, it would serve only as a beginning. To be human, the artificial mind must imitate that of an individual person, with its memory banks filled by a lifetime's experience - visual, auditory, chemoreceptive, tactile, and kinesthetic, all freighted with nuances of emotion. And social: There must be intellectual and emotional exposure to countless human contacts. And with these memories, there must be meaning, the expansive connections made to each and every word and bit of sensory information given the programs. Without all these tasks completed, the artificial mind is fated to fail Turing's test..."
There is so much more to human consciousness than the little bit i have noted. I won't bore yet i will note that whatever information i have accrued over time has never let me down. It is profound and powerful stuff. As expressed elsewhere, i appreciate smart people discussing important topics in forums such as this... i read and was impressed by every response. Not saying i am any expert, rather that my BS detector did not engage as usual... this was all really thoughtful and complex reading. Also, there seems to be more civility in the science/philosophy section when compared with other pof forums. Yes? | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 10/9/2008 4:07:07 AM | I believe consciousness must always have existed and is the founder or first cause of the universe. It is said by those who have died and returned to this life that nothing needs to be spoken in the other dimensions; thoughts can be read and no thought can be hidden. It is also said by those who have been out of body that mere thought will cause the creation of things there. You may build a mansion for yourself in the Astral realm complete with angelic servants who obey your every whim, but alas, they are not independent consciences such as we. In the more sublime or higher dimension we, although remaining individuals, operate as One in thought and our actions as Creator.
If we were to eliminate consciousness from the universe the universe in all its dimensions would cease to exist. We should all feel special, for we are consciousness incarnate on a voluntary mission of adventure in our own creation. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 10/9/2008 6:15:44 AM |
It is said by those who have died and returned to this life...
Nobody has ever "died and returned to this life". Death is not a reversable condition. Those who make such claims have either experienced hallucinations brought on by the trauma of being near death, or are outright lying.
Not only is there no evidence to suggest the existence of any form of "afterlife", there is ample evidence that no such thing exists. The correlation between conciousness and physical activity in a living brain is 100%. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 10/9/2008 10:34:56 AM | Your posts are very enlightening, Garry and I very much agree with many of your beliefs. First Cause is how I often refer to "God." I, too believe consciousness is eternal and the foundation for the Universe. Much light on your path towards expansion. As you expand, so does First Cause and as you heal, so does humanity. Namaste.  | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 10/29/2008 7:58:37 AM | ( It strikes me as the truest representation of 'the whole being greater than the sum total of the parts'. )
Yes—1+1=3 great stuff.. 3 is the consciousness.
This I think is the key. Consciousness is the result of interaction.
It may sound strange but in a simple way Oxygen + Hydrogen = a consciousness, water is the resulting consciousness of the two. I know water dose not think, but neither do two neurons.
The point is-- as more complex atom structures form--molecules/cells/bacterium/plants and so on-- up to animals/humans,,, they interact as a more complex consciousness.
I know humans have a hard time with the notion that – plants have conscious, how about a mouse, or a dog, how about a Gorilla. I say yes, they all do, it’s just not as complex as ours.
From my office window I have watched two squirrels from the time they could climb to adulthood—For two years I have watched them chase each other, up and down trees, across roofs, over fences--- They are quite conscious of the concept of fun…No one could tell me they are not entertaining themselves..
So therefore the original question-- interpreting neurological data – if we could build a machine that has the interacting complexity equal to the human neuron interaction, it would have a consciousness equitable to humans.
It get even more—complex, I think that in the same way neurons interact within our brain, I believe the celestial bodies in the galaxy interact, and have a consciousness—We don’t understand it -- but take a guess what we call it… | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 10/29/2008 6:43:29 PM | | To borrow from a famous quote, yes conciousness is an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 11/7/2008 10:43:02 PM | | If you give birth there is no doubt about illusion. You know what you did and there is no debating. After that, take some LSD, and get a taste of your mind running amuck and beyond your beckoning. What a reality check. | |
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| Is consciousness an illusion?
Posted: 11/8/2008 1:37:30 AM | | In my opinion, it´s just another way trying to explain the unexplainable. Scientists are slowly changing in the opinion about the so called soul - and sooner or later I think they have to confess it exists but cannot ever fully be explained as just a result of chemical reactions. | |
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