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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 1/7/2008 3:24:21 PM | BRAVO Crash!  That is My New attempt to the New Year!
On topic...I say take all the time You need...but careful if You take to much of Their time You get less than what You intended... | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 1/7/2008 4:34:51 PM | nipoleon on 1/4/2008 4 51 PM
"Is anytime too soon to wake up from a delusion ?
See life as it is. See people as they are.
Like that movie " The Treasure of the Sierra Madre ".
Learn to recognize fools gold when you see it.
Learn to see the treasure you are treading on under your own feet."
I completely agree with you nipoleon.
"And really, if you do love them, and they don't love you, the kindest and most loving thing you can do for them, is to let them go to seek their happiness elsewhere, right?"
What makes you think you have any control over him and his feelings? | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 1/7/2008 5:35:23 PM | Well firesiren
I'm afraid you are confusing me just as much as nipoleon did. Neither of your answers seem the least bit relevant to the questions asked. Maybe I'm just not in the right frame of mind to connect the two. I don't know.
As for your second point. I know perfectly well that I have no control over him or his feelings which is why I'm not asking how to "make him love me" or any other ridiculous thing. The quote you selected is just clarifying the best course of action to resolve the situation as it currently exists. Is it not kind to step away if a relationship is not filling you both equally?
I don't understand your take on my question. | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 1/7/2008 6:55:28 PM |
If I was confident in his feelings for me, and mine for him...I would likely keep everything as it is until both were ready for more, as long as it was needed. IF I KNOW he loves me, then i dont need to be with him 24/7...knowing is enough.
I agree with this.. 'course, I'm an aquarian as well ;0)
Op... what makes you think he doesn't love you. You say he's kind, he does nice things for you etc., I'm certain you've been intimate by now... What is it that makes you doubt. Surely there must be something else other than him just not Telling you that he loves you. What connection is falling short to make you think it may be time to give up your dream? Emotional? Physical? Spiritual? Tactile?
You said:
I listened carefully in the beginning to what he said he wanted and did not want. I accepted his words as his truth. I did not expect him to change for me or for anyone else
Is this a fwb or casual relationship? Or am I reading too deep between the lines? | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 1/7/2008 7:54:54 PM | Hi Stovetop
The reasons I feel he does not love me are the following:
He doesn't wish to disclose to a list of people (including his kids) that we are a couple, although there are a fair number of people who know.
Yes, we have been intimate, and we are compatible in that area, but the words he uses to describe said intimacy are not "intimate", if you get what I mean. He only uses street words to describe our physical connection, rather than affectionate words.
Although he will cuddle with me if there is no chance of anyone seeing, he will not touch me in any way if there is anyone anywhere in the vicinity. Not even the people who know we are a couple.
He has never claimed to love me, nor has he ever talked about future shared visions. He talks about his plans, but never specifically says "we" in any of those discussions. Of course I'm very careful not to say that either, as I don't want to appear that I'm making assumptions.
I am the sort of person who needs to be touched, and needs words. Without touch or expressions of love and affection, I do not feel loved.
I don't feel you are reading too deep between the lines. That is precisely what I am wondering myself. I can't tell if he views this as a FWB relationship, as the friendship is wonderful, the "benefits" are a good fit, but I love him, and feel the relationship is incomplete without love on his part. | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 1/8/2008 6:11:41 PM | You have and are letting yourself be used.......Take it or leave it........as you wish.....it's your life......From what you have written, dont think he will care one way or another.....sorry to burst your bubble.......you alone seem to view this as a relationship.......for him, you are an available and convenient "street word"
Find a man who will respect and adore you..........or not........ | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 1/8/2008 6:32:29 PM | Betty....To answer your question posed to me earlier....I can't say as we were ever really "together." We had an off and on again FWB type thing for nearly 2 years. At times he seemed to be more open to the idea of more than FWB...But, when asked directly he'd hedge and avoid the questions. I finally got used to the idea that it would never be more. I thought I was OK with the "arrangement" but, in the end...I wasn't...I had developed deep and real feelings for him. Oddly, a very nice voice mail from him on Christmas Eve to me really made me realize just how much I really wanted "more."....I wanted to spend the Holidays with him, at least part of them...not listening to a voicemail....I was to spend yet another holiday season alone...because, I had been waiting on him to come around, instead opening myself up to other possibilities. This was of my own choice, no one forced me to be a schmuck and wait around....That was all on me.
I started to evaluate what I really wanted for me and decided the best thing for both of us was for me to let go him. I think it's the hardest thing I have ever had to do. Made childbirth seem almost painless....LOL..But, I did give him ample opportunity to tell me I was wrong and he did want more...He never did step to the plate like I "dreamed" he would. ...I miss him....very much....his voice, his smile, his smell, even his "moods".....I have wished him well and I do, from the bottom of my heart...Sadly, he didn't bother doing the same for me....Probably more painful than the loss of the "dream" is the realization that he really wasn't even ever my friend.
Life is full of experiences..both good and bad....they make us what we are.....the key is to try to learn and grow from them....and hopefully not to keep repeating the same mistakes....
Betty...Only you can know what is right for you.....Good luck to you! | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 1/9/2008 1:04:24 AM | When is it time to give up the dream?
A friend once told me....until someone offers you something better than your big dream. | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 1/15/2008 6:08:57 AM | | When you're 40 and still waiting for your knight in shining armour to come take you away to his castle and buy you everything you could imagine. Excuse me Cinderella, Snow White, or Sleeping Beauty, but aren't you a little old for that? | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 1/15/2008 1:57:13 PM | | That is all in the Fairytale Books...PLEASE...just to be HAPPY...that is what it is about. NO? OH but if You need the material stuff to make You happy then I guess I am not on the same page... | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 1/15/2008 2:18:20 PM | You already know.
There is no answer as to when, except when you get the balls to walk away.
( I think they sell them at Wal-mart these days. I'd get the XXXL ones, you'll need em.) | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 1/15/2008 2:22:29 PM | OMG, this very thing has just happened to me. We've been together just under a year, he felt it was time that we should move to next stage of relationship which would be marriage, but he's unsure if he loves me. so he's leaving me incase he never does and ends up wasting years of my life!
I don't agree with him, I think its too soon. But I can't change his mind. But I love him enough to let him go find someone he can love, even tho it makes me very sad :(
xxxx | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 1/15/2008 4:21:42 PM | When is it time to give up the dream?
If there's any doubt that's all you need to know... but the hardest thing to do when emotions are involved is to think clearly. When I go ape for someone it's like a big wave of mental illness washing over me. I love it and I can't stand it at the same time.
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 3/10/2008 5:17:27 PM | You've waited over 1-1/2 yrs. for someone to decide if they love you?
OMG. Talk about a waste of your time. Love may not happen overnite, but I think a person would know if it were going in that direction within a 6 month period, there abouts. | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 3/10/2008 7:09:08 PM | There really isnt a set time limit on this. In my opinion, if someone isn't in love with you or you are not in love with them then why con't to ride a dead horse?
No one wants to be alone or by them self. But in the same respect Why stay with someone who don't feel the same as you do?
It don't matter how you end it be it nice or with a fight someone will always get hurt. Better to do it sooner than later.  | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 3/10/2008 10:28:36 PM | bettydoll?/victoriangirl, if you are even around anymore...
He doesn't wish to disclose to a list of people (including his kids) that we are a couple, although there are a fair number of people who know.
Yes, we have been intimate, and we are compatible in that area, but the words he uses to describe said intimacy are not "intimate", if you get what I mean. He only uses street words to describe our physical connection, rather than affectionate words.
Although he will cuddle with me if there is no chance of anyone seeing, he will not touch me in any way if there is anyone anywhere in the vicinity. Not even the people who know we are a couple.
He has never claimed to love me, nor has he ever talked about future shared visions. He talks about his plans, but never specifically says "we" in any of those discussions. Of course I'm very careful not to say that either, as I don't want to appear that I'm making assumptions.
I am the sort of person who needs to be touched, and needs words. Without touch or expressions of love and affection, I do not feel loved.
I know what you mean there (about the last part)... Honestly, it sounds like he's using you. If it's been a year-and-a-half and all of these things mentioned are still true, he's either got serious intimacy issues, or he's been played so many times, that he ignores displaying his feelings (too much), lest you dump him, because after a while, we accept that is how it works - but I gotta hand it to him, he's got you scared to even say "we", not to hurt his precious little unfeeling feelings  by making a very reasonable assumption about the two of you. Another thought (an obscure one) that comes to mind is that he may be exorbitantly superstitious - he may think that other people are vessels of evil and malevolence - that they are eyes and ears to some demonic lord, and/or (combined with) their greed, jealousy, and envy, will tear you two (for him, the little piece of heaven he has on earth) asunder.
You don't have to give up a dream to face reality - you have every right to know where he stands, and to let him know how you feel, so TALK TO HIM - I just don't get how so many people are in relationships (not only fooling one another that they are not in one), but have this absurd barrier in communicating and expressing feelings to each other. (Maybe that has been my problem - having no problems there )
Good luck.
- Excog.
Street words for intimate connections? Do you abandon all your senses to infatuation and give in (it up) when he says "Hey baby, let's hump bang and do the nasty bump spank and smack that ugly filthy monkey dirty deed doggy-style pound for pound, but word up keep it on the down low girl don't be trippin'." ? (What'd I leave out?) Charmingly romantic - who wouldn't be enamored? | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 3/10/2008 10:37:15 PM | "In most cases,people don't develop feelings of love for at least a few months."
This is patently untrue. It might take a few months before you get around to saying "I love you," but the beginnings of a love connection will be apparent within a few days. Human beings are,,,,,,,,,,human beings. They are not walking-Vulcan logic machines. | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 3/11/2008 12:32:51 AM | i would like to hear more about your definition of love and what your dream looks like. i've asked this same question of my man and got some really interesting answers, from him as well as others who are in good relationships. i think a lot depends on your own goals, your age, what you want from a relationship and whether it is realistic or storybook. i have found that most "experts" on this topic, have never been in a successful relationship themselves, but have been most forthcoming in telling me to end mine.
below is a bit of what i have learned, but keeping in mind that i am 59, have teens at home and have been married twice--as well as i have a disability (lymes disease)-- so these factors affect my reality mode. also i have been very successful in my professional life before this disabilty, so i tend to have a lot of confidence--which does not mean i do not cry, i just get over it!
sure, i'd like to be happy ever after in never never land with the perfect mate who never drives me nuts and just adores me to pieces. but, it just ain't gonna happen that way. that being said, i have some things happening for me, that many do not--even those who are younger, w/o family commitments, never had bad marriages, and are not disabled.
so here goes what i know to date:
people "express" love in different ways. i've been told i was loved a whole lot by the two ex's, but for them it was a feeling. in the long run, neither was capable of the true definition of love, which is a recognition of who i am and a giving on their part "to" me, and not just a feeling that makes them happy or their willingness to accept my love to them (consecutively, not at once mind you!) .
so, now i have a man in my life who struggles with "saying" the love "word". he's said it, but not a whole lot. but, on the other hand, he DOES it.
so, why does he not say it a whole lot? because he's been screwed before in his eyes, because he is not sure he can share living space again being set in his ways, because he fears that commitment forever might destroy him "again" and he's not strong enough to get through it. because quite frankly, he has a lot to do for himself right now, that i don't want to or need to get involved in.
so what does that leave me with? well, he's monogmous and we've been together over two years now--still with a physical attraction. despite his fear of children and my life being too complicated for him, he's been there for the children several major instances and all in the middle of the night and one time when we had been talking about breaking up. the men who loved me, were never there as much as he has been there for me.
i don't have a live in mate, but on the other hand--right now, i am not ready for that. my life is complicated and the demands due to our two very different personalities and lifestyles might not fit right now. we both have individual things we need to do to complete our own lives--for me, it's the kids and the new house renovation and dealing with my disability. what he needs to do, is on his own inventory list, so that is not essential for public perusal.
am i lonely? very occasionally, but when it happens, it happens big time and often in the middle of the night when i need him to hold onto and i know when he is there, it is physically comforting. so that is why we all have friends. manfriend and i talk almost every nite and see each other on average about two days a week. often little times in between and occasionally if one of us is having a really bad week--less. we both have keys to each other's house. we try to be considerate and not just drop by as a rule. but we each know that if we did, we would not find someone there who would be offering up any competition. we both have friends.
we've had about three major fights and two or three little ones. each time, it appears we have grown from it all. all the rest of the time, we are both very nurturing and touch feeley, we both love dancing and music although not quite the same selections, we do take turns. we cook for each other. we do our best to help each other out with our homes, or our pets or other type issues.
but still, no "i love you" every day, no marriage or even living together in sight at the moment. and for me, the reality is that right now it's enough, despite my ideal vision. in the future, maybe not. but then again, never in the course of my first or second marriage did i think i would be getting divorced.
so, think about some of this. are you complete in your own right? do you need to be living with him right now? does he love you and how does he show that? is he comfortable with you loving him, assuming you do? are you monogamous? are you attracted to each other still? is he there for you in the dire times? do you have a good time together? if/when you fight, is there any growth? what is holding you back? are you in a hurry? are there indications that he really does not love you and that you are just a friend with benefits, while he is waiting for someone else to come along? is there any major dysfunction that is a true deterrant?
looking at the divorce rates, i think too many people love too quickly and leave too quickly. to me, this is not love. the young couple who took seven years described above--seemed to have had a plan and individual growth to address. that could also be you....or not. just process it, as whatever your conclusion, if not this man, you will be defining your relationship with the next man. as to the dream, only you can say if it is realistic with any man. | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 3/11/2008 5:51:20 AM | Well said Carolann..and Crash....how long do we have to carry on denying ourselves of true happiness waiting for what might be, possibly, could be, true happiness?
I was married for over 10 years and at the end when he didn't know what he wanted...I said well I can't compete for you to figure out what your life should look like.
Am I right?
We ALL deserve to be loved in a complete way..although...it's not the end of life, not to be..being happy is the key.
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 3/11/2008 2:20:33 PM |
so, think about some of this. are you complete in your own right? do you need to be living with him right now? does he love you and how does he show that? is he comfortable with you loving him, assuming you do? are you monogamous? are you attracted to each other still? is he there for you in the dire times? do you have a good time together? if/when you fight, is there any growth? what is holding you back? are you in a hurry? are there indications that he really does not love you and that you are just a friend with benefits, while he is waiting for someone else to come along? is there any major dysfunction that is a true deterrant?
Yes, I'm still here. I thought this thread had died. Happy to read more opinions.
Serenity: to answer your specific questions (and they are good ones, thank you). I do feel complete, and can live quite happily unattached if that is what life holds for me.
I don't live with him, and have no need to do so at this time. As a matter of fact if he asked me tomorrow to move in, I would put him off for a time, as I don't feel ready for that, even IF I trusted his feelings for me, which of course at this time, I do not.
Does he love me and how does he show me? That's where I'm having major difficulty, as I really have no idea whether or not he loves me. I'm not so good at non-verbal communication though, so if he's not affectionately touching me, and he's not giving me words, I'm stumped to attempt an interpretation, with any hope of it being correct.
I do love him, and he seems aware of that, and accepting of it.
We are both monogamous. THAT discussion was early in the relationship and crystal clear. We both agree it is the most appropriate situation for each of us, and we umm....keep each other happy.....so to speak.
I am very attracted to him, and I believe he is also to me. He certainly seems willing and eager enough to .....make me happy.
There have not really been any dire times to judge that situation by. We've had a few instances of misunderstanding but have never fought, and have never had to deal with a true crisis....yet. But when we do discuss heavy subjects, such as our individual personal growth issues, we are very supportive of one another's journey. So yes, growth is an important part of our connection.
We love being together, and spend time together as often as reasonably possible. We have so much in common, it would be shorter list to count our differences.
You asked what is holding me back? From what? From telling him that I love him? The only holding me back from that is that if I tell him that, I'm making promises into thin air, if he does not also love me. I can love him, (love being a verb here) without verballizing that, and enjoy loving him regardless of his reciprocation. But if I tell him, then he is almost forced to acknowledge and respond, and that would either move things forward, or end them. I'm not prepared quite yet to end it, although I'm starting to experience some frustration here (as you can tell), and may decide to bite the bullet and admit my feelings out loud soon.
If I believed it is just a slow journey for him, but that he is leaning in that direction, I can hold on for a very long time. I'm not in a hurry, but I would appreciate knowing if I'm just going to stay in Limbo forever, or if things are moving forward, even if only at a snail's pace. Tempo is not the issue. Direction is the issue for me.
Back to my difficulties with non-verbal communication, I can't tell whether he views me only as an FWB. We are dear friends, and we both enjoy the benefits, so that's a possibility, but I honestly could not tell you, without crawling into his brain, unless he's willing to talk about it.
No major dysfunctions that I'm aware of other than a repeatedly broken heart and lousy relationship history, which the majority of us also seem to have, so nothing new there. Some skittishness is understandable, which is why I've stuck around this long without pressuring him for a verbal acknowledgement.
I don't believe in asking questions for which you are not prepared to deal with either answer, so that's why I don't want to ask him yet. But if something doesn't become obvious relatively soon, then I will get to the "nothing left to lose" point, and approach it. Either that, or I'll simply break it off and walk away.
Either the rock or the hard place is going to have to move soon.
Thanks for everyone's well thought out and helpful responses.
Betty. | |
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| When is it time to give up the dream?
Posted: 3/11/2008 3:43:17 PM | the words I love you might not be the words that need to be spoken.
where do you see this going, now that's a good question to ask. from there you have your answer. | |
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