|
|
|
|
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 2:28:56 PM | | I feel for the decent, law-abiding Canadian citizen, no Second Amendment as U.S. citizens have to protect their natural right to own a gun for self-defense. Yes, natural right, what more fundemental right does a human being have than using any means they choose to defend their life against the scum of the earth? I certainly do not wish to harm any one, the idea is repugnant to me. But more repellant to me is the idea of myself or someone I love dead, raped, or otherwise injured at the hands of an animal who doesn't give a damn about anything but his own degenerate desires. The criminal has the advantage, you won't have much time to react, you cannot "disable" him. You have to decide if your life is worth more than his. If so, legally buy a gun, train with it, develop an emergency plan, practice house clearing, and steel your mind to the fact that you may someday have to use deadly force in the gravest extreme. Thats the real world folks, not pleasant but real. No decent person wants to harm another, but sometimes it becomes necessary in order to ensure our own safety and survival. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 2:37:13 PM | | One of the freedoms we as Americans enjoy is protecting ourselves. Its realy not worth the debate. Canadians think our gun control laws are too easy, and in the same breath complain that they cant defend themselves. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 2:59:45 PM | I feel for the decent, law-abiding Canadian citizen, no Second Amendment as U.S. citizens have to protect their natural right to own a gun for self-defense. Yes, natural right, what more fundemental right does a human being have than using any means they choose to defend their life against the scum of the earth?
The right to healthcare.
LOL
Canadians think our gun control laws are too easy, and in the same breath complain that they cant defend themselves.
Actually you'll find most Canadians don't have a problem with our level of gun control.
I'd like to see this article in the newspaper linked too, I suspect there is more to this story than the OP is posting.
If I recall correctly, often charges like this are laid when somebody is already running away, and you shoot them in the back.
The idea being that it's only self defence if you're under threat. You can't kill an incapacitated person and expect self defence either.
You also can't set up killer booby traps, if it kills a person and you're not even on site, how can you claim self defence? | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 3:08:45 PM | Good Lord Ryan you're kidding me right? If the guy breaks into my home, he deserves to be shot if he survives good for him, that will teach him, your home is supposed be your sanctuary and you're supposed to be safe, obviously if you live in opulence there are measures you can take against home invasions, but in parts of the country home invasions is on the rise.
If anyone has been proven to be irresponsible with guns, its certainly law enforcement and the military. so how is that Ryan? You have some stats im not aware of? | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 3:24:06 PM |
One dead in Langdon home invasion Jamie Komarnicki, Calgary Herald Published: Thursday, January 03, 2008
Strathmore RCMP are investigating a home invasion that took a deadly twist early this morning. At about 3 a.m., two culprits broke into a home near Langdon, about 20 kilometres east of Calgary. An occupant of the home fought off the attackers, RCMP said. One of the attackers died at the scene. The second culprit received serious stab wounds and fled the residence. He later arrived at Strathmore Hospital and was taken to hospital in Calgary in critical condition.
The victim in the home was taken to hospital by ambulance to treat his injuries, where he is listed in stable condition. Another occupant of the home wasn't hurt.
All of the parties involved knew each other, RCMP said. Calgary RCMP general investigation section, major crimes unit, and forensic identification section are working with Strathmore RCMP on the case. An autopsy will be scheduled to determine the cause of death.
http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=72700f2d-e529-4bae-8292-205a3e51a7f4&k=73002
OP
But if me, a not drug dealer with no record kills an intruder to prevent a murder and rape of my girlfriend or wife, and subsequent robbery or arson to cover it up, would any of you fellow Canadians raise a rucus? Yes that would be selfdefence. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 3:25:16 PM | Ryan, I would never hurt someone who tried to steal my sterio, jewelry or anything else in my house (that's what homeowners insurance is for). However, if someone broke into my house with the intent to hurt me or my pets, whether it be rape, murder, whatever, I would absolutely fight back and if they died in the process, well that is just too bad.
Edit: Also, I wouldn't use a gun. A gun has nothing on a pissed off woman. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 3:28:22 PM | | Who can determine the invader's motive? Without knowing their motive, you can not determine the necessary action to protect yourself/family. Without that knowledge, you must assume the worst, or gamble your safety, your life, and your families. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 3:35:25 PM | This was a home invasion at 3am. One invader was killed, the other is in hospital with stab wounds and pending charges. The RCMP are investigating to determine whether the homeowner used an appropriate level of force. Although it seems a reasonable case of self-defense, the police and the law cannot assume that it was. As an extreme example, it is possible (although perhaps unlikely), that the homeowner and his girlfriend INVITED the invaders, specifically with intent to harm. Without investigating, they cannot rule things like this out. Thus far, there has been no statement of possible charges against the homeowner. They have only stated they're investigating the amount of force used. Charges will be decided or ruled out after that.
edit - it was stated from the begining that the invaders were known to the residents. The nature of that knowledge wasn't known [or released]. That too could influence the amount of force deemed necessary. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 3:58:12 PM | http://cp.horizon-news.com/lethherald/article_story.php?cpid=819200&ctgry=n
RCMP release the name of a man killed during a home invasion east of Calgary By: The Canadian Press at 14:23 on January 5, 2008, EST.
LANGDON, Alta. - Police have named a man who died during a home invasion in a hamlet east of Calgary, but say the cause of death won't yet be released. The break-in in Langdon, Alta., last week ended with one invader dead and the second in serious condition with stab wounds. RCMP say 32-year-old Lance Norton was killed after two men forcibly entered a home and burst into a bedroom where a man and his girlfriend were sleeping. They said at the time that a struggle ensued, and Norton was dead when police arrived. They say the cause of death won't be released until the medical examiner's report is completed. The Calgary Major Crimes unit is continuing to help with the investigation.
Hope that is enough links | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 4:02:16 PM | | Yup, I notice it doesn't say any charges are being laid. Which is my point. Killing somebody who comes into your home can be murder, or it can be self defense, context matters. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 4:09:34 PM | Here is an article on that case that has a little more information;
http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2008/01/05/pf-4753948.html
Affair may have sparked break-in By NADIA MOHARIB, SUN MEDIA A love triangle may be behind a botched break-in that ended in the death of one of the home invaders, sources say.
The shocking incident early Thursday morning near Langdon left 32-year-old Lance Norton dead.
His 27-year-old accomplice also fled the scene with severe stab wounds after a man and his girlfriend were attacked while they slept.
Cops have said the two bandits were known to the 35-year-old resident and his girlfriend, and there are no indications the brazen break-in was drug or gang-related.
"Until the completion of the investigation and until the actual motive is known, we won't speculate on what the motive is," RCMP Cpl. Patty Neely said yesterday.
However, sources said the 24-year-old woman in the home, who was not hurt in the incident, may have had prior romantic involvement with one of the suspects.
An autopsy was completed yesterday on Norton, a resident of the Strathmore area, though cops are not releasing the cause of his death.
The other intruder, meanwhile, was initially listed in critical condition but released from hospital yesterday.
Charges are pending against the latter man, who sources said had been stabbed nearly a dozen times before he fled the scene around 3:30 a.m. Thursday morning, only to turn up later in Strathmore hospital.
Neely said cops are not yet certain if the incident will prove to be a case of self-defence or if murder charges will be levelled against the man living in the home, who suffered minor injuries in the botched invasion.
The case has ignited debate among people across the country -- many who wrote to the Sun yesterday -- about the rights of people inside their homes to defend themselves against criminals. This interest in the case is hardly surprising to the founder of the Canadian Justice Foundation.
"For people, their home is their sanctuary," said Shawn Howard. "When somebody violates that, it has far-reaching impacts. I would be surprised if he is charged and ... if a jury would convict.
"We don't know what went on in the house. Ultimately. people want to feel safe in a place they call home."
Personally I do not care what the law up here says. If someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night, I am not going to try and asertain what their intent is. Nor am I going to think about "reasonable force". Most common citizens are not trained like police officers, so the whole reasonable force arguement is moot to me. (in this scenerio) I would grab the nearest weapon I have and take him or her down without a second thought. To me that is reasonable, anything less is plain stupid. The home is your sanctuary, and you do have the right to defend it. Don't want to die while invading someone else's house? Don't do it. It is not rocket science. I am definately with Texas on this one. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 4:11:01 PM |
But if me, a not drug dealer with no record kills an intruder to prevent a murder and rape of my girlfriend or wife, and subsequent robbery or arson to cover it up, would any of you fellow Canadians raise a rucus?
From the Globe and Mail article on the story.
RCMP Cpl. Patricia Neely - “The Criminal Code authorizes people to use as much force as necessary to protect themselves and their property.”
“However, that force must be the minimum amount necessary. Obviously this person had a right to protect himself but the investigation will focus on whether or not he used the minimum amount of force necessary to ensure his safety and that of the other person in the home,” she added.
The police investigation will now try to determine what precipitated the attack. There is no indication whether the death of the home invader could be described as a murder, said Neely.
But if me, a not drug dealer with no record kills an intruder to prevent a murder and rape of my girlfriend or wife, and subsequent robbery or arson to cover it up, would any of you fellow Canadians raise a rucus?
I have no idea why the OP phrased the question with ‘subsequent robbery or arson to cover it up’. It almost sounds like he wants to kill someone and then make it look like he was in greater danger than he was. Whether or not he has a record or is a drug dealer (the OP or anyone here in Canada) we all have the same rights to protect ourselves against a threat. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 4:18:49 PM | in civilized states, as well as countries, you have the absolute right to kill a piece of shyt as soon as he steps into your house. in texas, which is the most civilized, you can kill them in your yard. i have shirts that say, "happiness is a warm gun and a dead thief". that is what makes the world go round. only a total idiot would not kill a punk who broke into their house. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 4:20:51 PM | | If you come into my house and I'm there and I don't know you or why the hell you would be in my house you would have five seconds to plead your case before I get my 22 ounce framing hammer and show you what a nail strike feels like. Try and take me to court for protecting my home ! | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 4:24:11 PM | My own rule of thumb is to kill anyone who breaks into my home, period, armed or not. Make sure its not a loved one then blow their head off. Take some advice though , if they are not armed, take a knife from the kitchen and put it by the body.people have been charged with murder for killing intruders in their home, because they weren't armed.
that is the ONLY intelligent rule. however, you know that at night you cannot tell whether or not a punk is armed, which is why you have to shoot first. the fact is that in most states, as long as they have gotten into your house, you are free to kill them, and all rational people will. there's simply no intelligent reason not to. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 4:54:59 PM | You got a stiff on your hands and not from nature causes ~
my experience is ~ Lucy, you got some splaining to do.
illegal entry won't get you a "get out of jail" card
fear of thieft ~ won't do it either.
You must provide evidents and testomony that you feared for your life or the live of others.
it's quit simple ~ not alot of words needed here ~ Your attorney~ supplies all the words ~ you keep your mouth shut!!! ~ dar | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 5:17:35 PM | | Not only Canada, but the great U.S. of America has gone to crap.... criminals are protected. Even though a criminal has violated the rights of his/her intended victims... The criminals rights are 100% protected. If your lucky enough to get a criminal into the Court of law. Lets see if you can mention his criminal history while hes on the stand. A good criminal is a dead criminal...If he enters your home while your sleeping. Load that **stard up with buckshot and dont stop shooting until he quits moving. The people who will try to rationalize a criminals behavior will also be the people who represent "Right to life people" who stand outside the prison, hours before they pull the switch on a person who committed murder....I find that these people have never taken time to ride with a cop and never have witnessed the suffering of familys who were victims of criminal behavior...However, they are quick to stand up for some piece of crap that has done nothing but create turmoil and pain for those around them. The majority of these people are not first time offenders. If a dog attacks people on the street. We put it down. Thats the way that these people should be handled. They should also be put down. Our system will not change until someone takes the initiative to writing the congressmen, and I dont mean just one letter. Because, its your tax dollars that protect, feed and clothe these asses. Always rememeber, if they are in your home, shoot until they stop moving... A criminal who remains alive bleeding on your floor will soon turn into a victim. If hes dead..Your story shouldnt be challenged. | |
|
OLT4U
| Joined: 12/21/2007 Msg: 43 | |
| |
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 9:32:47 PM | Wow, almost have to be a lawyer and word things so that they cannot be taken any which way but one, and that is fair... I must admit only upon second reading of some of the posts did I comprehend the true meaning and the emotion of the authors, and I thank you all so much for your contributions, esp. Always Smiling and Badger for the news articles... I just saw the news flash on tv and was bursting with my own emotions, and obviously, I am not the only one inspired to debate these issues...
I apologize for my spelling of rucus and defense, I may miss a k or c here or there, so please understand I should have worded things better, at least spell checked...
"But if me, a not drug dealer with no record kills an intruder to prevent a murder and rape of my girlfriend or wife, and subsequent robbery or arson to cover it up, would any of you fellow Canadians raise a rucus?
"I have no idea why the OP phrased the question with ‘subsequent robbery or arson to cover it up’. It almost sounds like he wants to kill someone and then make it look like he was in greater danger than he was. Whether or not he has a record or is a drug dealer (the OP or anyone here in Canada) we all have the same rights to protect ourselves against a threat. ...."
Okay, my point once again was would anyone object if an average guy was jailed for murder or manslaughter for killing someone who forcibly entered his home...
I mentioned "no record" or not being a "drug dealer" to typify the average joe who is "NOT known to police" and who is an average blue collar worker, not a "drug dealer". That was mentioned because in my mind "live by the sword, die by it" means that police and most of the public dont mind if a criminal is whacked in a drug raid by drug rivals or addicts... The same mentality that some don't care if a prostitute goes missing, but if a schoolgirl does, it is different... Dont get into that, it is just why I chose the words... And by "subsequent robbery or arson to cover it up" I meant that IF I KILLED AN INTRUDER who broke into my house TO PREVENT them from murdering me and raping my wife or girlfriend, and then the criminals robbing my castle, and burning my sanctuary to cover up the evidence, AND THEN IF I WAS SUBSEQUENTLY CHARGED OR CONVICTED of murder, would my fellow average joe Canadians PROTEST my conviction...
I hope this gives you a better idea of what I meant Printer... And by the way, I bought the gun for my wife who called me because some guy was on our patio at night peeping through the window at her in the kitchen... She called me at work, I drove home, and took a flashlight and tracked the bastard to his house, knocked on the door, saw the shoes, looked at the prints, and scared the crap out of him. Then I called the police. Then I bought the gun. I took her to my dads farm and taught her how to use it. Obviously I kept it after the divorce... Lol...
I would much rather come home to a body of a rapist in my home than the body of my wife. I have a shovel and a pickup, so no problem taking out the trash... | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 9:43:41 PM | | The second suspect was charged with illegal entry and wearing a mask during the commision of an offense. Wearing a mask kinda says something about motives. Knife wounds to two, and probably three people, says something. I doubt that many people have a knife IN or NEAR their bed in the middle of the night here. That implies that one or both intruders brought knives with them. Although the surviving suspect was has not yet been charged with a weapons offense, the dead suspect won't be charged with ANYthing. He could have been carrying an AK-47 for all we know. Or maybe a box of kleenex. Trial will tell. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 9:52:36 PM | I would grab the nearest weapon I have and take him or her down without a second thought. To me that is reasonable, anything less is plain stupid.
Yup and you'd be fine, of course if after you knocked the guy out, you proceeded to beat him to death, you might get in trouble.
in civilized states, as well as countries, you have the absolute right to kill a piece of shyt as soon as he steps into your house. in texas, which is the most civilized, you can kill them in your yard. i have shirts that say, "happiness is a warm gun and a dead thief". that is what makes the world go round. only a total idiot would not kill a punk who broke into their house.
I'm curious by what definition of Civilized you're operating under, this sounds similar to the laws I'd expect in a third world country.
Your right to property does not over ride a persons right to live. You have no more right to shoot a thief, than the state should execute a shop lifter. Or you have the right to execute somebody with a shot to the back of the head for driving with undue care and attention and rear ending your car.
Civilization is about due process. If you think you have the right to arbitrarily use the death sentence, I frankly wonder at your mental health, and you probably shouldn't possess a weapon. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/5/2008 10:12:18 PM | | It's self defense depending on the laws of where you live. If in Texas, they'd give you a metal for killing an intruder. In the State of Maryland or Washington, DC , you'd go to prison perhaps, in DC for sure you'd go to jail. Not allowed to have a weapon in your own home in Washington, DC.. Unless you are a cop. | |
|
| |
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/6/2008 12:13:32 AM | Self-defense if your life in in danger (or you honestly believe that to be the case).
That someone simply breaks into your home, or steals something, gives you no right to kill them.
I'd certainly use the level of defense necessary if I thought my life was in danger, or anyone else's . At that point, it's no holds barred in what I will do.
Theft is why God created police officers, alarm , and insurance companies.
Based on what I know to be true (since I work in the business) , given a "home invasion" situation on a regular night in Montreal, I could expect multiple squad cars here within five minutes maximum response time.
My first act would be to call 911, my second to defend myself in an appropriate manner to the threat level presented (if I could not back away).
If faced with a life or death threat, I have no problems at all with trying to terminate someone with extreme prejudice - if I have no other choice in the matter. | |
|
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Posted: 1/6/2008 5:01:00 AM |
Your right to property does not over ride a persons right to live. You have no more right to shoot a thief, than the state should execute a shop lifter. Or you have the right to execute somebody with a shot to the back of the head for driving with undue care and attention and rear ending your car.
I am not sure those scenerios can be compared fairly. While shoplifting / stealing from a store you are in a public place, and in most stores security of some sort is already watching you. It is assumed your intent to be in the store is to shop. And of course with a car again you are on public property, out the open, and your intent is to drive somewhere. Lethal force in those situations is not required or allowed, as it should be.
It is not so black and white when it comes to your house. I do not mean property, I mean the actual house. I believe once someone has broken into your house they have pretty much given up their rights. I do not feel the onus should be on the homeowner to try and figure out what is going on or what the intent of the person is. If you are a trained Police Officer responding to a call that is different then being the average Joe just looking out for his property / family. Keep in mind this would go down in seconds. I would strike first, (if it was possible) incapacitate the individual, and ask questions later. I would not stop before striking and ask him or her what the hell they are doing. Obviously their intent is something sinister. If it was not, all they would have to do is ring the door bell. If for some reason the person died while being struck, well sorry about your luck, but you should not have been there in the first place doing what you are doing.
I meant that IF I KILLED AN INTRUDER who broke into my house TO PREVENT them from murdering me and raping my wife or girlfriend, and then the criminals robbing my castle, and burning my sanctuary to cover up the evidence, AND THEN IF I WAS SUBSEQUENTLY CHARGED OR CONVICTED of murder, would my fellow average joe Canadians PROTEST my conviction...
Yes I think there would be a pretty big uproar over something like that. The above mentioned case in this thread has people protesting already and it is not clear if the homeonwer is going to be charged at this point or not. People seemed to be ticked off at the mere mention that the homeowner might be charged. I would write my local MP or MPP or both and protest. Thats if they simply wouldn't just delete my email before reading it because I tend to email them a lot and voice my opinion, lol. Seriously though, not only would I do that, I might even set up some sort of petition to forward to the judge / prosecutor who is handling it. | |
|
|
|