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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 7:10:45 AM |
I feel for the decent, law-abiding Canadian citizen, no Second Amendment as U.S. citizens have to protect their natural right to own a gun for self-defense.
Americans are lucky that way. They aren't held hostage by bleeding heart socialist elites who want to leave them vulnerable to criminals.
so now I keep my trigger lock on, no shells in gun, in a locked safe, and shells locked in a different storage place
In that case, your gun isn't much good. Better to keep it loaded and handy, but make sure to secure it if you decide to call the cops, unless you've already fired it. They'll take forever to get there anyway, so you should have time.
cops saw on computer in car I had a firearm, and demanded I hand it over...
They had no cause to seize your gun, as it hadn't been used in the incident. This is what Canada's gun control laws do: they undercut the legal rights of law abiding people. Why should the police be able to confiscate property that they have no cause to believe was involved in a crime?
Bottom line: don't shoot first, ever. They want you to get the hell out and let the cops handle it.
Yes, shoot first. You never know if the guy is armed, and shooting first could save your life. Just make sure that the body falls inside your house, otherwise the courts will use it against you. Also, shoot to kill, otherwise the guy will sue you. As for getting out, you can't be sure you'll make it out safely if your home has been invaded. Also, it's your home. Why should you have to leave? | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 7:45:11 AM | Self defense. You have no idea when someone breaks in if they want to just steal or perhaps slit your throat and your families. Double tap to the centre of mass then a head shot for good measure | |
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dmotz
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Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 53 | |
| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 7:49:22 AM | Break into my home and if my Rottie does not get you...you can bet your ass I will!
I live alone..and keep my guns loaded and close at hand..I have no problem killing anyone who breaks into my home. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 8:14:46 AM | I find it interesting that we're talking about home invasion. Some criminal decides he has the right, not granted to him (or her) by law and breaks into your home because they don't care about the law and want to do it.
But all these "break in and I kill you" are of the same mindset. These poeple have presume to have a right not afforded them by the law but they don't care about the law and want to do it.
This may make you feel good because of some primal urge or what might be perceived to be common sense, but all it does it make you a criminal as well.
Imagine the irony of being in the same prison.
Ignore laws all you want. See where it gets you. Best of luck.
Yes, shoot first. You never know if the guy is armed, and shooting first could save your life. Just make sure that the body falls inside your house, otherwise the courts will use it against you. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 8:39:54 AM | Self defense is a basic human right. Think about it very carefully- what kind of people want to deny others that right? Essentially theives, thugs and bullies who want a monopoly on force and a free hand to dominate and plunder others. Some of them even have official titles and claim they want to protect you.
Could never understand why so many "bleeding heart" liberals pined for the rights of violent felons, tyrannical dictators and terrorists- until I made the connection- could it be that they see these kind of people as fellow travelers? There are people who do refer to muggers as "free lance tax collectors".
Or entertain the possibility - if the bleeding hearts ever do end up running the world- thugs would make good watch dogs to guard the sheep and do the dirty things they don't have the stomach for to keep things in order.
JF | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 8:44:34 AM | well here's something to think about - God gave you the most precious gift and that is your life so I feel by defending your self you are doing the right thing ( dead men tell no tells ) that means there's only one side to the story catch the hint !!!
Here in the USA they are trying to take are gun away by saying guns cause crime - like flies cause garbage !!!!!!! | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 9:15:08 AM | The best I've ever heard to explain how I feel about this is the explanation Glenn Beck gave on his view of deadly force.
Assume my family and I live in a 2 story house and are woken up by someone downstairs in the house. I grab my shotgun and head to the top of the stairs after dialing 911.
If anyone so much as puts a foot on the stairs, they meet their maker. By coming upstairs, they are after my family. The use of deadly force is not only my right, but my obligation to protect my family.
Otherwise, I let the police and insurance company handle it. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 9:32:51 AM | Self defence.
The story and photograph in todays paper should help those unclear on the concept.
Two intruders, seeking revenge on the victim for the recent breakup with a pregnant relative (related to the deceased intruder), kicked in the back door of the farmhouse sometime after 3:00 A.M. and accosted the victim and his new girlfriend while they were in bed asleep.
During the struggle, one of the intruders was killed and the other was wounded. The wounded intruder fled the premises around 3:30 A.M. and later showed up at the local hospital.
They say a picture is worth a 1000 words:
Photograph of the scene- major bloodstain in the bedroom doorway, all the way to the foot of the bed.
No attempted robbery mentioned, only 2 intruders intent on causing bodily harm who trapped the victim and his girlfriend in the bedroom...where, exactly, are you going to run? Even if you could break through, would you leave your partner in the room? | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 9:44:15 AM | Thank you!!! I was wondering what those who were running out were doing with the rest of the family/people in the house.
Really now, those that are getting out of the house, do you think the people breaking into your house in the middle of the night are going to let you wake everyone up and leave? Or are you leaving them in there? I'm staying and protecting mine. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 9:54:36 AM | Self defense.
"Locking up guns is a good idea"
About 10 years ago, a man entered my home with very, very bad intentions.
I was ready for bed. I had children. My gun was unattainable. He had one. Not a good day, the worse one of my life so far.
I still keep mine locked up.
Would I have shot him if I could have gotten my pistol? In a freakin' heartbeat. But, I now I know there is nothing like a can of OC/CS and a cast iron skillet. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 1:26:13 PM | mahoganyrush. If anyone has been proven to be irresponsible with guns, its certainly law enforcement and the military.
I think its clearly murder, unless you're protecting yourself. You do not have the right shoot someone for stealing your stereo or some other piece of property. That is simply ridiculous and a mindset like that is highly destructive.
But when in rome, do as the romans do...
Pretty generalized statement about law enforcement and the military my friend. I think as a whole they are very responsible with their weapons. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 1:37:33 PM |
Americans are lucky that way. They aren't held hostage by bleeding heart socialist elites who want to leave them vulnerable to criminals.
No instead they kill each other at vastly higher rates, and have higher deaths due to firearms.
In that case, your gun isn't much good. Better to keep it loaded and handy, but make sure to secure it if you decide to call the cops, unless you've already fired it. They'll take forever to get there anyway, so you should have time.
Unless of course your unsecured fire arm is used by somebody who breaks into your house while you're not home, which is often the case.
They had no cause to seize your gun, as it hadn't been used in the incident. This is what Canada's gun control laws do: they undercut the legal rights of law abiding people. Why should the police be able to confiscate property that they have no cause to believe was involved in a crime?
You don't have a legal right to a firearm in canada. Firearms are also not a human right. So what "right" are you discussing? The right to self defense has already been established. You have the right to defend yourself, but you do not have the right to commit vigilantee style killings.
Texas for all it's brutal "kill somebody for looking at you funny" laws, has a crime rate far worse than any Canadian city. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 2:32:39 PM | Show ALL Forums > Current Events > Kill a home invader... murder or self defense? Mod Threads Home Logout MyForums Tracked Threads
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geeteebee
Joined: 10/27/2007
Msg: 26
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 4 56 PM
I feel for the decent, law-abiding Canadian citizen, no Second Amendment as U.S. citizens have to protect their natural right to own a gun for self-defense. Yes, natural right, what more fundemental right does a human being have than using any means they choose to defend their life against the scum of the earth? I certainly do not wish to harm any one, the idea is repugnant to me. But more repellant to me is the idea of myself or someone I love dead, raped, or otherwise injured at the hands of an animal who doesn't give a damn about anything but his own degenerate desires. The criminal has the advantage, you won't have much time to react, you cannot "disable" him. You have to decide if your life is worth more than his. If so, legally buy a gun, train with it, develop an emergency plan, practice house clearing, and steel your mind to the fact that you may someday have to use deadly force in the gravest extreme. Thats the real world folks, not pleasant but real. No decent person wants to harm another, but sometimes it becomes necessary in order to ensure our own safety and survival.
Born2late
Joined: 1/11/2007
Msg: 27
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 4 13 PM
One of the freedoms we as Americans enjoy is protecting ourselves. Its realy not worth the debate. Canadians think our gun control laws are too easy, and in the same breath complain that they cant defend themselves.
CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 28
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 4 45 PM
I feel for the decent, law-abiding Canadian citizen, no Second Amendment as U.S. citizens have to protect their natural right to own a gun for self-defense. Yes, natural right, what more fundemental right does a human being have than using any means they choose to defend their life against the scum of the earth?
The right to healthcare.
LOL
Canadians think our gun control laws are too easy, and in the same breath complain that they cant defend themselves.
Actually you'll find most Canadians don't have a problem with our level of gun control.
I'd like to see this article in the newspaper linked too, I suspect there is more to this story than the OP is posting.
If I recall correctly, often charges like this are laid when somebody is already running away, and you shoot them in the back.
The idea being that it's only self defence if you're under threat. You can't kill an incapacitated person and expect self defence either.
You also can't set up killer booby traps, if it kills a person and you're not even on site, how can you claim self defence?
mahogany_rush
Joined: 7/18/2007
Msg: 29
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 5:08:45 PM
Good Lord Ryan you're kidding me right?
If the guy breaks into my home, he deserves to be shot if he survives good for him, that will teach him, your home is supposed be your sanctuary and you're supposed to be safe, obviously if you live in opulence there are measures you can take against home invasions, but in parts of the country home invasions is on the rise.
If anyone has been proven to be irresponsible with guns, its certainly law enforcement and the military.
so how is that Ryan? You have some stats im not aware of?
Badger_Bill_
Joined: 8/10/2007
Msg: 30
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 5 06 PM
One dead in Langdon home invasion
Jamie Komarnicki, Calgary Herald
Published: Thursday, January 03, 2008
Strathmore RCMP are investigating a home invasion that took a deadly twist early this morning. At about 3 a.m., two culprits broke into a home near Langdon, about 20 kilometres east of Calgary.
An occupant of the home fought off the attackers, RCMP said. One of the attackers died at the scene. The second culprit received serious stab wounds and fled the residence. He later arrived at Strathmore Hospital and was taken to hospital in Calgary in critical condition.
The victim in the home was taken to hospital by ambulance to treat his injuries, where he is listed in stable condition. Another occupant of the home wasn't hurt.
All of the parties involved knew each other, RCMP said.
Calgary RCMP general investigation section, major crimes unit, and forensic identification section are working with Strathmore RCMP on the case.
An autopsy will be scheduled to determine the cause of death.
http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=72700f2d-e529-4bae-8292-205a3e51a7f4&k=73002
OP
But if me, a not drug dealer with no record kills an intruder to prevent a murder and rape of my girlfriend or wife, and subsequent robbery or arson to cover it up, would any of you fellow Canadians raise a rucus?
Yes that would be selfdefence.
mizbex
Joined: 8/8/2007
Msg: 31
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 5 16 PM
Ryan, I would never hurt someone who tried to steal my sterio, jewelry or anything else in my house (that's what homeowners insurance is for). However, if someone broke into my house with the intent to hurt me or my pets, whether it be rape, murder, whatever, I would absolutely fight back and if they died in the process, well that is just too bad.
Edit: Also, I wouldn't use a gun. A gun has nothing on a pissed off woman.
blazingwings
Joined: 7/28/2006
Msg: 32
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 522 PM
Who can determine the invader's motive? Without knowing their motive, you can not determine the necessary action to protect yourself/family. Without that knowledge, you must assume the worst, or gamble your safety, your life, and your families.
FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 33
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 5:35:25 PM
This was a home invasion at 3am. One invader was killed, the other is in hospital with stab wounds and pending charges. The RCMP are investigating to determine whether the homeowner used an appropriate level of force. Although it seems a reasonable case of self-defense, the police and the law cannot assume that it was. As an extreme example, it is possible (although perhaps unlikely), that the homeowner and his girlfriend INVITED the invaders, specifically with intent to harm. Without investigating, they cannot rule things like this out. Thus far, there has been no statement of possible charges against the homeowner. They have only stated they're investigating the amount of force used. Charges will be decided or ruled out after that.
edit - it was stated from the begining that the invaders were known to the residents. The nature of that knowledge wasn't known [or released]. That too could influence the amount of force deemed necessary.
Badger_Bill_
Joined: 8/10/2007
Msg: 34
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 5 12 PM
http://cp.horizon-news.com/lethherald/article_story.php?cpid=819200&ctgry=n
RCMP release the name of a man killed during a home invasion east of Calgary
By: The Canadian Press
at 14:23 on January 5, 2008, EST.
LANGDON, Alta. - Police have named a man who died during a home invasion in a hamlet east of Calgary, but say the cause of death won't yet be released.
The break-in in Langdon, Alta., last week ended with one invader dead and the second in serious condition with stab wounds. RCMP say 32-year-old Lance Norton was killed after two men forcibly entered a home and burst into a bedroom where a man and his girlfriend were sleeping.
They said at the time that a struggle ensued, and Norton was dead when police arrived.
They say the cause of death won't be released until the medical examiner's report is completed.
The Calgary Major Crimes unit is continuing to help with the investigation.
Hope that is enough links
CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 35
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 6:02:16 PM
Yup, I notice it doesn't say any charges are being laid. Which is my point. Killing somebody who comes into your home can be murder, or it can be self defense, context matters.
Always Smiling36
Joined: 1/3/2007
Msg: 36
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 6:09:34 PM
Here is an article on that case that has a little more information;
http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2008/01/05/pf-4753948.html
Affair may have sparked break-in
By NADIA MOHARIB, SUN MEDIA
A love triangle may be behind a botched break-in that ended in the death of one of the home invaders, sources say.
The shocking incident early Thursday morning near Langdon left 32-year-old Lance Norton dead.
His 27-year-old accomplice also fled the scene with severe stab wounds after a man and his girlfriend were attacked while they slept.
Cops have said the two bandits were known to the 35-year-old resident and his girlfriend, and there are no indications the brazen break-in was drug or gang-related.
"Until the completion of the investigation and until the actual motive is known, we won't speculate on what the motive is," RCMP Cpl. Patty Neely said yesterday.
However, sources said the 24-year-old woman in the home, who was not hurt in the incident, may have had prior romantic involvement with one of the suspects.
An autopsy was completed yesterday on Norton, a resident of the Strathmore area, though cops are not releasing the cause of his death.
The other intruder, meanwhile, was initially listed in critical condition but released from hospital yesterday.
Charges are pending against the latter man, who sources said had been stabbed nearly a dozen times before he fled the scene around 3:30 a.m. Thursday morning, only to turn up later in Strathmore hospital.
Neely said cops are not yet certain if the incident will prove to be a case of self-defence or if murder charges will be levelled against the man living in the home, who suffered minor injuries in the botched invasion.
The case has ignited debate among people across the country -- many who wrote to the Sun yesterday -- about the rights of people inside their homes to defend themselves against criminals. This interest in the case is hardly surprising to the founder of the Canadian Justice Foundation.
"For people, their home is their sanctuary," said Shawn Howard. "When somebody violates that, it has far-reaching impacts. I would be surprised if he is charged and ... if a jury would convict.
"We don't know what went on in the house. Ultimately. people want to feel safe in a place they call home."
Personally I do not care what the law up here says. If someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night, I am not going to try and asertain what their intent is.
Nor am I going to think about "reasonable force". Most common citizens are not trained like police officers, so the whole reasonable force arguement is moot to me. (in this scenerio)
I would grab the nearest weapon I have and take him or her down without a second thought. To me that is reasonable, anything less is plain stupid.
The home is your sanctuary, and you do have the right to defend it.
Don't want to die while invading someone else's house? Don't do it. It is not rocket science.
I am definately with Texas on this one.
printer2
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 37
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 6 01 PM
But if me, a not drug dealer with no record kills an intruder to prevent a murder and rape of my girlfriend or wife, and subsequent robbery or arson to cover it up, would any of you fellow Canadians raise a rucus?
From the Globe and Mail article on the story.
RCMP Cpl. Patricia Neely - “The Criminal Code authorizes people to use as much force as necessary to protect themselves and their property.”
“However, that force must be the minimum amount necessary. Obviously this person had a right to protect himself but the investigation will focus on whether or not he used the minimum amount of force necessary to ensure his safety and that of the other person in the home,” she added.
The police investigation will now try to determine what precipitated the attack. There is no indication whether the death of the home invader could be described as a murder, said Neely.
But if me, a not drug dealer with no record kills an intruder to prevent a murder and rape of my girlfriend or wife, and subsequent robbery or arson to cover it up, would any of you fellow Canadians raise a rucus?
I have no idea why the OP phrased the question with ‘subsequent robbery or arson to cover it up’. It almost sounds like he wants to kill someone and then make it look like he was in greater danger than he was. Whether or not he has a record or is a drug dealer (the OP or anyone here in Canada) we all have the same rights to protect ourselves against a threat.
iamjumbo
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 38
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 6 49 PM
in civilized states, as well as countries, you have the absolute right to kill a piece of shyt as soon as he steps into your house. in texas, which is the most civilized, you can kill them in your yard.
i have shirts that say, "happiness is a warm gun and a dead thief". that is what makes the world go round. only a total idiot would not kill a punk who broke into their house.
Triple_Threat
Joined: 9/19/2007
Msg: 39
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 6 51 PM
If you come into my house and I'm there and I don't know you or why the hell you would be in my house you would have five seconds to plead your case before I get my 22 ounce framing hammer and show you what a nail strike feels like. Try and take me to court for protecting my home !
iamjumbo
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 40
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 611 PM
My own rule of thumb is to kill anyone who breaks into
my home, period, armed or not. Make sure its not a loved one then blow their head off.
Take some advice though , if they are not armed, take a knife from the kitchen
and put it by the body.people have been charged with murder for killing intruders in their home, because they weren't armed.
that is the ONLY intelligent rule. however, you know that at night you cannot tell whether or not a punk is armed, which is why you have to shoot first. the fact is that in most states, as long as they have gotten into your house, you are free to kill them, and all rational people will. there's simply no intelligent reason not to.
dancecard
Joined: 3/19/2006
Msg: 41
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Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/5/2008 6 59 PM
You got a stiff on your hands and not from nature causes ~
my experience is ~ Lucy, you got some splaining to do.
illegal entry won't get you a "get out of jail" card
fear of thieft ~ won't do it either.
You must provide evidents and testomony that you feared for your life or the live of others.
it's quit simple ~ not alot of words needed here ~ Your attorney~ supplies all the words ~ you keep your mouth shut!!! ~ dar
that clearly demonstrates that you know absolutely NOTHING about the law.
of course, it depends on the state that you live in and how civilized it is. texas is the most civilized state, and you can't kill them in your yard without waiting for them to get into the house. the majority of the other states require you to wait until they are actually inside the house, and then you can waste them. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 2:42:20 PM | I'm curious by what definition of Civilized you're operating under, this sounds similar to the laws I'd expect in a third world country.
Your right to property does not over ride a persons right to live. You have no more right to shoot a thief, than the state should execute a shop lifter. Or you have the right to execute somebody with a shot to the back of the head for driving with undue care and attention and rear ending your car.
Civilization is about due process. If you think you have the right to arbitrarily use the death sentence, I frankly wonder at your mental health, and you probably shouldn't possess a weapon.
you certainly show that you have no grasp of reality.
civilized simply means a state which authorizes you to eliminate trash which threatens you or your domain. in texas and florida for example, that extends to your car and workplace, and it is permissible to kill them even if they are fleeing as long as they have your property in their possession.
your mental capacity is certainly questionable with examples as irrelevant and specious as these. of course i have every right to shoot a thief. my property is worth infinitely more than the life of a thief, but that also is irrelevant. all that you have to do to stay alive is to stay out of my house. when you make the choice to break into my house, it is your choice to die, no one else makes the choice for you
any first grader can comprehend such a simple reality | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 2:48:46 PM | I think its clearly murder, unless you're protecting yourself. You do not have the right shoot someone for stealing your stereo or some other piece of property. That is simply ridiculous and a mindset like that is highly destructive.
now that, is lunacy. get real. yes, i have the absolute right to kill you for breaking into my house, whether or not you are stealing anything. it is your violation of my home that justifies killing you, not what you intended to do | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 2:58:38 PM | you certainly show that you have no grasp of reality.
civilized simply means a state which authorizes you to eliminate trash which threatens you or your domain.
Main Entry: civilized
Function: adjective
Date: 1611
: characteristic of a state of civilization ; especially : characterized by taste, refinement, or restraint
Maybe you're using the wrong word? My grasp of reality is just fine. I think maybe your grasp of english is where the failure is.
in texas and florida for example, that extends to your car and workplace, and it is permissible to kill them even if they are fleeing as long as they have your property in their possession.
So the death penalty for theft.
vigilante
One entry found.
vigilante
Main Entry: vig·i·lan·te
Pronunciation: \?vi-j?-'lan-te\
Function: noun
Etymology: Spanish, watchman, guard, from vigilante vigilant, from Latin vigilant-, vigilans
Date: 1856
: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate); broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice
— vig·i·lan·tism \-'lan-?ti-z?m\ noun
Sounds like Anarchy.
your mental capacity is certainly questionable with examples as irrelevant and specious as these. of course i have every right to shoot a thief. my property is worth infinitely more than the life of a thief, but that also is irrelevant.
The laws of most civilized countries do not agree with you. That is why the punishment for theft is not death.
all that you have to do to stay alive is to stay out of my house. when you make the choice to break into my house, it is your choice to die, no one else makes the choice for you
any first grader can comprehend such a simple reality
I notice you're not actually addressing my points about anarchy, vigilanteeism or the nature of the law instead you're indulging in whats called Ad Hominem arguments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.
Your personal insults certainly don't strengthen your rather tiresome argument. You should tone it down before you end up getting suspended.
now that, is lunacy. get real. yes, i have the absolute right to kill you for breaking into my house, whether or not you are stealing anything. it is your violation of my home that justifies killing you, not what you intended to do
So you advocate the punishment of death for trespassing as well. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 3:02:04 PM |
unsecured fire arm is used by somebody who breaks into your house while you're not home
You only need a loaded and readily accessible gun when you are at home. When you're away or when you don't need it, of course you should secure it.
You don't have a legal right to a firearm in Canada.
Owning a firearm is legal in Canada. Owners of firearms should not be unfairly or arbitrarily persecuted by the state.
So what "right" are you discussing?
The right for a law abiding citizen not to have the police enter his home without reasonable cause and without a search warrant, and to use the evidence so gathered to support an unrelated charge against the person. Also, the right not to have property seized by the state for no reasonable cause. If a policeman had performed an arbitrary search of a Rastafarian's home, found some pot and then charged the guy with possession, the case would be thrown out. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 3:03:27 PM | Mizbex.......I salute you. I have no children, but do have animals. And like the old saying goes...."They better give their soul to God, because their ass is mine." But your trying to disable them, may not be the best thing. There was a case in PA not to long ago, where someone broke into a home. The home owner shot him and wounded him. He sued the home owner, and actually collected. So as much I do not advocate violence, that may not be the best answer.
~~SUN~~ | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 3:26:11 PM | Like most people who own guns, I am a soft spoken, easy going, peace loving, kind of guy. Homsoever . . .
Someone breaks into my home.
I am IMMEDIATELY in imminent fear of my life and the lives of my family.
I don't care whether the criminal is not armed with anything more than intent. The criminal has invaded my home. The very act of invading my home has raised the stakes to the point of someone not surviving the encounter. I will NOT desert my family because someone has entered my home without having been invited.
Thank you, so much, for having this party Mr. Home Invader. I will be bringing an escort; she will be wearing the short barrel, spewing maximum load OOO buckshot. Please enjoy the party, short as it may be. The coroner will be arriving shortly to take the many pieces of your carcass away.
I never, ever, wish to do harm to another human being. However, I am NOT going to ask a home invader if they are armed, any more than a home invader will politely ask me where I keep the valuables.
Years ago, when I worked in the business, as one has put it, I would be asked about the use of deadly force. I would explain it this way: If you are in imminent fear of your life, or the life of another person, you may justifiably use deadly force. Imminent meaning right now, at this very split second, if you do nothing, someone is going to die.
Having been placed in the position of having to make that judment call, bear in mind, that if you shoot someone, no matter what the reason, you will carry that memory with you for the rest of your life. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 3:28:30 PM | ...Seems like the only question is ..Is the home a place of santuary..and as such..should you be able to kill a person who breaks in without asking their intentions. I guess there's only one way to settle it...You place the issue on a ballot..and let majority rule.
All the debate in the world won't settle things. We're certainly not going to settle them here. I have my opinion... If I hear someone coming through my door/window..and they completely enter they home...they get a warning to stop and leave..or I'll provide them with a personalized body bag...it's their choice. If they're unable to comprehend my instruction...I guess it sucks to be them. Oh and for the record folks...a pistol isn't the most effective stopper in the realm of self-defense...the bullets penetrate walls and endanger people in adjoining rooms/houses/apartments....Get yourself a pump action shotgun with the shortest legal barrel..and make sure it has the "open" choke...Use some #71/2 or #8 sized shot...and it won't penetrate walls...but will take the head off of someone very handily at 10 feet...Besides....there isn't anything as universally recognizable as a pump action shotgun racking in a shell in the dark of the night..................... | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 3:28:51 PM |
In Canada, only the criminals have rights. You're only legally allowed to be a victim.~ Jim Dandy 2007
> It's the same here in New Zealand, Jim, my adopted country, a nation with more gang members than police officers.
> In NZ, homicides have rocketed 4,000% in the last 50 years. (There were only two convictions in 1952.)
> It does not matter how many convictions you have under your belt in New Zealand, or how desperately serious those convictions are, you are fully entitled to Legal Aid (at the taxpayers' expense), and you are guaranteed to receive it time and time again. This country has been called 'a land fit for criminals', and that's just what it is. It is a remarkable country, a place where the most vicious and hardened thugs are given parole by woolly-headed liberal types with thick glasses and fountain pens in their hands as they sit pontifically behind big desks, only for those criminals to commit more crimes, like murder. The list of such incidents is too long to cite in this posting.
> Friends, Canada or America, or this hole-in-the-wall country called New Zealand, it's going to get a lot worse. The trend is shocking and alarming, and our grinning politicians don't think we have a problem. 'Not a problem,' they say, as they give themselves yet another salary increase.
> Best wishes to all. Keep safe, and be good to one another. - Peter. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 4:46:26 PM |
Mizbex.......I salute you. I have no children, but do have animals. And like the old saying goes...."They better give their soul to God, because their ass is mine." But your trying to disable them, may not be the best thing. There was a case in PA not to long ago, where someone broke into a home. The home owner shot him and wounded him. He sued the home owner, and actually collected. So as much I do not advocate violence, that may not be the best answer.
Like I said, if the intruder was there to steal from me, have at it, I am would leave with my pets. However, if the intruder intended harm, I have large Waterford collection, I am sure one of those pieces would knock him out cold.
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:07:42 PM | "Could never understand why so many "bleeding heart" liberals pined for the rights of violent felons, tyrannical dictators and terrorists- until I made the connection- could it be that they see these kind of people as fellow travelers?"
Well, it looks like your prejudices have caught up with you. I consider myself a liberal, but I am totally against gun control, so you can't paint us all with the same brush.
Anyone who is familiar with the kind of oppression that goes on in countries where the government controls who has firearms knows how bad an idea gun control is.
As for anyone breaking into my home; an extremely unwise decision. Unhealthy to the point of causing immediate cessation of the invader as a viable life force.
Or, to put it another way, it would likely result in their being promoted to a post-life position. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:17:33 PM | Pupdaddy: You're ever so right about the pump shotgun, the largest bore one can comfortably handle. Best home defense firearm available. To this, I would add a light of some kind; there are numerous models available on the market today. If nothing else, a flashlight will do. However, a light mounted on the gun is much preferred; it will be pointing at whatever the gun is pointed at.
I beg to differ with you on the size of shot though; unless you live in the city, where neighbors in close proximity could be endangered by a gunshot. OOO buckshot, or larger, it comes in OOOO now, is the smallest size shot to penetrate a leather jacket, and then, at a maximum distance of 15 feet. Thankfully, I live in the country, where close neighbors aren't a concern.
For those who live in the city, I strongly agree with Pupdaddy, #7 1/2 or #8 shot will do the job. However, aim carefully, and shoot twice. Headshots will be most difficult to make, when you're waking up, and it's dark.
For those with only a handgun, I would suggest a look at what was once called Glaser Safety Slugs. They are similar to shotgun shells for a handgun; they were advertised not to go through walls, yet effective at close range.
For those who prefer non lethal measures, there are any number of shotgun ammunition manufacturers that make non lethal, yet effective, shells for shotguns. One can choose from rubber pellets, or bean bags, traveling at low velocities. These are advertised as non lethal; developed only to stun, or stop, someone.
Regardless what you use, or what measures you take. Practice, practice, practice, and practice some more, with whatever you are going to use for home defense. Practice in low light, and very little light conditions, with the firearm, and ammunition, you intend to use for home defense.
Should the need ever arise, and I sincerely hope it never does, to defend your home against an invader, know your target, and aim carefully. As the saying goes: I'd rather be judged by twelve, than carried by six. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:23:57 PM | You only need a loaded and readily accessible gun when you are at home. When you're away or when you don't need it, of course you should secure it.
I can't imagine anybody who "needs" an accesibble loaded weapon in their home unless they're a drug dealer. Seriously, home invasions are far less common than accidental fire arm deaths in this country.
Owning a firearm is legal in Canada. Owners of firearms should not be unfairly or arbitrarily persecuted by the state.
Yes thats true, that's not to say it's a right however. Fire arms like motor vehicles, have a serries of laws that guide behavior towards they're use. You can't speed at 200 MP/H down a freeway, and you can't have a loaded gun under your pillow.
The right for a law abiding citizen not to have the police enter his home without reasonable cause and without a search warrant, and to use the evidence so gathered to support an unrelated charge against the person.
Ok that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
Also, the right not to have property seized by the state for no reasonable cause. If a policeman had performed an arbitrary search of a Rastafarian's home, found some pot and then charged the guy with possession, the case would be thrown out.
Thats true to, once again that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
> In NZ, homicides have rocketed 4,000% in the last 50 years. (There were only two convictions in 1952.)
I'm sure NZ remains completely unchanged in any other way other than fire arm control laws since the 50's. The population is exactly the same (I notice you're not quoting per capita statistics) economic and rural vs urban situations remain unchanged.
Oh yah and your murder rate?
0.0111524 per 1,000 people
Compared to
0.042802 per 1,000 people (USA)
So a fourth, my god, it's an epidemic. Somebody arm the population!
Anyone who is familiar with the kind of oppression that goes on in countries where the government controls who has firearms knows how bad an idea gun control is.
Yes Canada and the UK truely yearn for freedom from our dictatorship, if only we could have the wonders of the pre sadam Iraq government with it's ready access to firearms :P
Come on, don't pretend this issue isn't that uncomplicated. | |
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