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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:35:55 PM | Now getting back on track here. This is my understanding of what the OP was asking?
The OP asked What your reaction to the home owner being charged with murder. If an intruder broke into your house, with the possible intent to do harm to your family. The homeowner killed the intruder, to prevent any harm to your family.
Should the homeowner be charged with murder or manslaughter?
What would be the public reaction if the homeowner was charged?
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:39:03 PM | Texas for all it's brutal "kill somebody for looking at you funny" laws, has a crime rate far worse than any Canadian city
As a former Texan I'd like to point out I felt more safe walking down a street there than any place I have lived.
People happen to think twice before approaching someone because of those brutal laws for the fact they don't know if you might be carrying a weapon on you.
Also consider the size of the great state of Texas. Compared to just one of your city's in Canada.
Also consider who crosses into your country from its southern boarder legally and how Texas has people crossing their southern boarder illegally.
The way I see it if someone breaks into your home they should of thought out that they might run acrossed someone so they should have a plan for that also.
So if someone comes into my house with out my consent. They've bought a one way ticket to the morgue.
I saw a news show where a man shot and killed an arm robber. The robbers wife was being interviewed. She was demanding justice for her dead robber husband because it was not right that he was killed by the home owner...excuse me....what mentality did that woman have? Its alright if my husband kills you doing something illegal but not right for you to defend yourself from him?
thats some sick thinking in my book | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:43:00 PM |
Should the homeowner be charged with murder or manslaughter?
Nothing but maybe gave a key to the city for ridding it of low life scum
What would be the public reaction if the homeowner was charged?
public outrage | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:49:13 PM | As a former Texan I'd like to point out I felt more safe walking down a street there than any place I have lived.
How you feel and the reality are differen't.
People happen to think twice before approaching someone because of those brutal laws for the fact they don't know if you might be carrying a weapon on you.
Didn't know they were psychic in texas.
Also consider the size of the great state of Texas. Compared to just one of your city's in Canada.
Through the miracle of per capita comparison this doesn't matter.
Also consider who crosses into your country from its southern boarder legally and how Texas has people crossing their southern boarder illegally.
Thats neither here nor there.
The way I see it if someone breaks into your home they should of thought out that they might run acrossed someone so they should have a plan for that also.
So if someone comes into my house with out my consent. They've bought a one way ticket to the morgue.
Whatever, thats actually fine.
I saw a news show where a man shot and killed an arm robber. The robbers wife was being interviewed. She was demanding justice for her dead robber husband because it was not right that he was killed by the home owner...excuse me....what mentality did that woman have? Its alright if my husband kills you doing something illegal but not right for you to defend yourself from him?
Once again not what's being discussed. If you shoot a guy for breaking your window and running, you've commited murder.
This entire discussion is odd. The OP assumed the person was being charged and he wasn't. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 6:02:53 PM |
Outside my window or door trying to break= Will empty my Magnum....and drag them into my house....
Will only call 911 AFTER they're dead...SHOOT TO KILL, A DEAD MAN CAN TELL NO LIES.....
In this case you mean dead men can't tell the truth, but seriously if you did this you would be a moron, you think a trail of blood and gunfire won't make it obvious what happened? | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 6:07:59 PM | " 'Anyone who is familiar with the kind of oppression that goes on in countries where the government controls who has firearms knows how bad an idea gun control is.'
'Yes Canada and the UK truely yearn for freedom from our dictatorship, if only we could have the wonders of the pre sadam Iraq government with it's ready access to firearms :P
Come on, don't pretend this issue isn't that uncomplicated.' "
Actually, do you know who Bruce****urn is? If so, you may have an image of him as a peacenik, 'tree-hugger', All-you-need-is-love kind of guy and, in many ways, he is.
HOWEVER, what may surprise you is that he is also totally against gun control. He has visited and spent a lot of time in countries where gun control is a reality. He knows firsthand the kind of trouble this sort of policy can cause and how it can lead to abuse by those in power.
So, your puzzling comment regarding 'dictatorship' aside, I stand by my comment. Gun control is a bad idea. It's bad enough giving the government control of our tax dollars; God forbid they should control our right to protect ourselves!! | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 6:20:13 PM |
The entire discussion is odd. The OP assumed . . . ~ charlesedm
> That's right, Charles, we're all odd. We've all got the wrong end of the stick, except you. We're all strange and have bizarre ideas, erroneous facts, poor information, bad sources, and generally we're up the creek without a paddle in everything we say.
> However, you are another matter entirely. You seem to have something to say about everybody's posting - the ubiquitous judge and jury, eh?
> We are all wrong but you. Thank God we can depend upon your supreme omniscience.
> Peter. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 6:22:49 PM | In the UK, most people seem to believe that if someone tries to burgle you, and you kill him, it's self-defence. It's not surprising, given the number of gang-rapes of grandmothers, babies, and kickings to death, that have happened during burglaries.
However, the law says that you cannot use a gun unless he has a gun. You can only use a gun against someone who also has one. He has a carving knife, and is good with it? Ask him to wait, while you go out and get one of your own.  | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 6:28:48 PM |
It's not surprising, given the number of gang-rapes of grandmothers, babies, and kickings to death that have happened during burglaries.~ scorpiomover
> Scorpiomover, didn't you know that all these crimes are merely in our imagination and that the soaring crime rate in Britain is just a fallacy, something to keep us occupied between commercials during Coronation Street?
> The facts speak for themselves. Britain and the West in general are deteriorating at a rapid rate of knots. Anyone who says otherwise is simply being an argumentative socialist, your dyed-in-the-wool goody-goody - until his own mother, or sister or wife is raped and left for dead. Then the attitude . . . . 'changes'.
> My own philosophy is: An eye for an eye.
> Anything less is morally bankrupt.
> Peter. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/6/2008 6:55:35 PM |
nothing to do with what we're talking about.
My reply was in direct response to your question, so I guess you're the one who went off topic. Either you are no longer interested in the answer to your question, or you realize how untenable your argument is and want to drop the subject. Very well, we shall speak no more of it.
Fire arms like motor vehicles, have a series of laws that guide behavior towards their use.
If a domestic dispute occurs and the policeman finds out that you have a driver's license, he isn't normally permitted to force you to let him into your garage in order to seize your car. Wait! Let me guess. Not what "we" are talking about? Right. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/7/2008 2:37:22 AM | Hi:
I havent posted in the forums until now, and I would like to add my own two (cents, pence,
centimes, take your pick : ).
I have enjoyed this discussion very much, and want to add what I was always taught
growing up. My dad always said, "If you have to do anything, drag them INSIDE".
In the U.S. the GENERAL consensus is that (taking much of our law from our parent
U.K. parent), is that a mans home is his CASTLE. And that owes to (again IN GENERAL),
the "crook yer on yer own" inside the residence. It may vary from state to state, but that
is the general state of affairs in the U.S. It is also ONE of the reasons that the Japanese
RUED having to consider invading the U.S. (or generally any other agressor either). They
knew that the POPULACE was ARMED. In the birth of our nation, Canada went ONE way,
WE in turn went the OTHER. Our forfathers FOUGHT long into the night creating our
Constitution, argueing late into the night over many of these points that we are here
discussing. They had to create a document that would cover ALL cases and last as well
the test of time. I have been told that ORGINALLY they didnt think our nation would
last over 200 years! And it has gone well over that. But yes storm clouds that have been
discussed here loom on the horizon. As mentioned in Australia, there has been a HUGE
strike down on gun ownership, (did they manage to get the crooks too?), and their crime
rate has SOARED. We are VERY lucky still to have the 2nd Amendment intact. When
THAT is gone, start to worry. (No better yet worry NOW!).
Now to toss in a side matter to this discussion, (which I do not care to diverge on),
one thing to clearly remember, this discussion was STARTED by a Canadian, and
essentially we have diverted or created a discussion that would be better seated in a
class at a criminal law college called "compartive law". Now here is is where I toss in
the (hopefully short) diversion. I once drove a cab for a living, and was priviledged to
have a Canadian lawyer and my car that asked me if I knew what the most significant
difference between U.S. and Canadian law. I replied that I didnt know. He told me
something that STUNNED me. In Canada, the "Crown" (or "state" if you like), can
APPEAL AN AQUITTAL!. And all the way to the (Canadian) Supreme Court!
I.E. if a home owner was charged with defending himself or home, the "Crown" can
APPEAL the AQUITTAL. Here in the U.S. if you are aquitted, thats IT, you CANNOT
be charged with that crime again! (Even I think if new evidence is found or other what
not). You though can be charged with some allied charge but still not the SAME charge.
A good study on this is in the movie "Double Jeaprody" where a woman does time for
a crime, that I think she didnt do, then years later she found the person she was alleged
to have killed, was still alive, and in a very emotional scene, she points a gun at the
real bad guy, that she did TIME for killing (that didnt happen), and said.."If I kill you,
I wont be charged...I have ALREADY done time for it". Its a great scene.
There you go, just another log on the fire..: )
Certain things still available in the states just cant be had any other way.
But we dont know how long that may last, sadly.
seeker
(Please move to Current Events as I couldnt find in the list to post) | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/7/2008 6:01:39 AM | I hate hypotheticals, so I'll just answer in the best way I can - if someone is in my home unauthorized, I reserve the right to claw, kick, baseball-bat and yes, shoot until the threat is neutralized.
I see things constantly on this and other boards and in social circle about the low likelyhood that there will ever be a home invasion. One needs only to read the news however, and realize that when home invasions do happen, it usually ends in the homeowner, unarmed and unawares, ending up with grevious bodily harm.
That in mind, the possibility of being shot and killed is an occupational hazard - the second one decides to violate my human rights, his/her protections cease to exist. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/7/2008 6:38:40 AM | Killings of any intruder should not be considered as murder, only self-defence. Not many have time to question the intruder to see if he/they are there to just rob, or if they are there to rape, kill, and mutilate ... so it is a matter of "shoot first, ask questions later".
There is no justifiable reason for an uninvited person to be in another's home ... especially in the middle of the night. It is quite reasonable to assume that the intruder is there to harm you. (Even if the intent was simple robbery, how many innocent people/families have been murdered because they surprised the burglar who then panicked and killed?)
As far as I'm concerned, once intruders have crossed the line and are through the door or window, they are fair game - and may die. Tips I've always heard to help prove self defence is to make sure to attack from the front (to prove they were coming at you), and to make it fatal (so they can't lie, sue or charge you).
A person should have any and all rights to protect their families and themselves. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/7/2008 7:16:55 AM |
If a domestic dispute occurs and the policeman finds out that you have a driver's license, he isn't normally permitted to force you to let him into your garage in order to seize your car. Wait! Let me guess. Not what "we" are talking about? Right.
No, but if you get into a domestic dispute in your car, he might check if you have insurance or outstanding tickets. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/7/2008 2:48:55 PM | "I can't imagine anybody who "needs" an accesibble loaded weapon in their home unless they're a drug dealer. Seriously, home invasions are far less common than accidental fire arm deaths in this country." Charlesedm on 1/6/2008 8 57 PM
The quoted statement may very well be true. However, I respectfully beg to differ.
Neither I, nor any member of my family, are drug dealers, nor have we ever been. Using one's imagination, just a little, any number of reasonable explanations can be provided for keeping an accessible loaded weapon in one's home.
A woman home alone, with a young child, with neighbors that are not close by. This is someone who is ripe for home invasion.
Anyone who lives alone is ripe for home invasion, in particular, the elderly.
Home invasion is about violence, lots and lots of violence. The occupants of the invaded home are supposed to be awestruck by the violence; giving the criminal the advantage. The criminal The most immediate, and effective, instrument to change the minds of these criminals is a firearm.
Myself, and ALL of my neighbors, keep readily accessible loaded weapons in their homes, to my knowledge, none of my neighbors are drug dealers either. As a matter of fact, our "neighborhood, if you can call it that, has several current, and former, law enforcement officers within it. We keep loaded guns for a number of reasons, one being to kill poisonous snakes that come up in our yards, and for wild dogs that have been known to attack people; hurting them severely.
The numbers of people having to defend their homes against invasion are on the rise. There was a time, when invading someone's home, whether they were home, or not, was rare. Such is not the reality of today.
One would keep a readily accessible loaded weapon in their home for the same reason that one should keep an accessible loaded fire extinguisher; in the unlikely event it is needed. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/7/2008 5:09:30 PM | nce again not what's being discussed. If you shoot a guy for breaking your window and running, you've commited murder
you really aren't very bright. in the first place clown, she's talking about texas, one of the few civilized states in the country. breaking a window is criminal mischief, and if it's done at night, you have every right to kill the trash. it's not just morally proper, it is the law. it's just too bad that thug huggers such as yourself don't like reality | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/7/2008 5:12:04 PM | | unfortunately lad, you get to be right on this one. of course, if she moves to texas, she don't have to bother dragging the trash in. you can kill them in the yard in civilized states | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/7/2008 8:15:27 PM | Hey! they are going to think that we've going wild here in Texas.~
While the laws does vary some about the country ~ having served as a peace officer and foreman for 3 months of a grand jury. ~ You see and hear enough to know, truth is stranger then fiction.
The Use of deadly force "free card " is restricted to ~For Fear of life and or life of Others ~
We have a system ~ here ~ a Grand Jury ~ made up of 12 of your piers ( citizens ) it is manitory to serve. ~ The case file is persented by the DA's office ~ this i2 member jury ~ listens to the case(s) ~ and ask question that are provided by the DA and investigating officer. They have the power to supeona ~ if they wish ~ they render a virdict ~ one or two ways ~ A No bill vote , the defendent walks, it's the end of legal entangelment. You are free to go.
Or a True bill, ~ the defendent needs to prepare and be ready to defend himself in a court of law.
It is at this stage ~ that most of this evidence come forward ~ in this way ~ people that are truly innocent of "no" crime ~ are not subjected to the hardships and rigor of fighting for their rights of due process. ~ and brother it's tough! and expensive.
so before you pop a cap into someone for breaking into your car or home ~ think about it ~ get you story straight. ~ best thing to do is ~ just be over whelmed and refuse to say anything ~ other then "I can't believe it" ~ or something normal people might relate to and understand. ~
As far a crime goes ~ seems it everywhere ~ it ebbs and tides ~ with the temperature, the economic stress and flow of drugs into the area. The New Orlean's disaster washed a lot of bildge rats inland. ~ We are still dealing with some of that dislocation of people ~ dar | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/8/2008 4:45:45 AM | Dancecard: Having spent my time on the back side of a badge in Texas, I have nothing but a warm feeling for the citizens that I served. Given the general nature of Texans, as a whole, I would think a Texan would be one of the the last to actually shoot someone. If they did, and I've seen some who have, just as you have, they're certainly NOT going to brag about it, or be proud of it. They did what had to be done, and that's the end of it.
One incident that comes to mind, which still makes me smile today, is one of our very young officers stopped a stolen car full of escaped felons. Naturally, he was by himself, and help was still a couple of minutes away. Some of the citizens who had scanners hear what was going on, and took it upon themselves to come to this young officer's aid, until other officers got there. A comment I heard one of those citizens say to the other was "Ain't nobody gonna hurt one of our cops."
Texas isn't going wild. The only thing that passing the concealed carry law in Texas did, was make legal what people had been doing for nearly 100 years. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/8/2008 5:12:59 AM | Manslaughter. Murder is premeditated.
If you shoot a guy for breaking your window and running, you've commited murder
I'm not clear why you guys are discussing the law when almost nobody here understands it. Can radioisotope production technique discussions be far behind?
As for people "rservinog the right" - you can say that, but these are not rights granted you under the law. Absent that, this is all just posturing the hypthetical. What you might do if this happened to you.
As somebody who has had somebody break in with a rifle and talked him out of it (said I was squatting the house and was goinna rip it off, gave him a coffee then called 911 and he was taken away - I took a picture of him in cuffs just to add to the indignity) I'll tell you what any cop will tell you: a flabby middle aged man is no match for a drugged up 20 year old. Don't even bother trying.
We now return you to your hormone riddled fantasy world. Carry on. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/8/2008 6:28:18 AM |
It is also ONE of the reasons that the Japanese
RUED having to consider invading the U.S. (or generally any other agressor either). They
knew that the POPULACE was ARMED. In the birth of our nation, Canada went ONE way,
WE in turn went the OTHER.
Hmmm.....
I know of no proposed invasion plan of Canada , by either side, in WW2. That would seem to reduce your argument about that one. I think the actual reason neither side attempted an invasion of North America was that it was too far away, and they kind of both had their hands filled holding what they'd already invaded - against the combined forces of what was left allied against them. 
I doubt the issue of armed American citizens even came up in the discussion, quite frankly.  | |
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