| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/9/2008 9:48:27 PM | weezygirl ... I'm assuming you live in town where police can be there within minutes?
I don't care what possessions an intruder wants to take - he can take everyTHING for all I care, ... but the trouble is HOW DOES ONE KNOW what an intruders INTENTIONS are? IF there is no time to question, one has to act immediately.
What if there is more than one intruder? What if you are no physical match for an intruder? I can almost assure you that not many of us have a desire to kill someone, but, would not have a problem doing so if it meant protecting our families and ourselves.
I'm sure anyone could live with the "guilt" of killing an intruder if it meant saving their own loved ones. {"Intruders" could be more leary to break into a home IF they know they are "fair game".} | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/10/2008 5:59:48 AM | It is true, in Canada you basically have to sit there and take it, that being said I'd have no problems defending my home no matter what the law says, if someone busts into my house when the doors are locked in the middle of the night and they end up dead or cripples or bleeding from the head, it's their own fault.
It blows my mind, but if the break into your house and stub their toe on your coffee table they can legally sue you, at that point I'd let them add assault to that cause I'd find them and give them some fists to the face to boot. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/10/2008 8:49:40 AM | | i have always done whatever i can to protect my children and i always will do so.. if it involves killing someone who has broken into my house, then that's what i'd do, if i had the opportunity... i'd rather lose my freedom than my childrens' lives | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/10/2008 10:52:30 AM | Ive for the most part, stayed out of this...but am struck by the characterization of gun owners - or anyone who may potentially deploy lethal force against a home invader as a murder or 'thug,' courtesy of RZ.
Most US courts, US NOT CANADIAN, will recognize a home invader's intent as bad to begin with. The NRA and other interests have successfully sued and helped enact legislation striking down the 'duty to flee' from an attacker for this reason - to protect homeowners who are lawfully engaged in self defense.
While the anecdotes of 'arming' your attacker after the fact are amusing, for the most part, they aren't needed and would likely cause some problems with a grand jury, if it goes that far. If you live in a state where there is no duty to flee from an attacker (a disgusting thought to even ponder) you are free to deploy lethal force if you feel so threatned by the intruder - not dissimilar, by the way, to the rules governing police use of lawful lethal force.
Now for RX and others up in Canada - I respect your disagreement on the issue and realize that your laws are markedly different than what we have here in the States. That said, these characterizations of US gun owners as thugs or criminals - especially when we use such firearms for lethal force- are unhelpful and woefully inaccurate. Ill paraphrase my last sentiment on the issue - if someone is in my home uninvited, I will and have a duty to myself/loved ones to assume, that they aren't going to respect my human rights - therefore, I am under no obligation to respect theirs. If I feel threatened, I will act accordingly.
That said, I hope never to HAVE to act in this manner -- but as an insurance policy, my .45 ACP pistol and .357 revolver stand loaded and at the ready, should the need arise.
No, that's NOT too much firepower.
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/10/2008 10:55:38 AM | oh and to add to that- this is for RSZ's benefit - you talk of not needing a firearm for self defense in a civil society. We do not LIVE in a civil society. I submit to you any given news report of a home invasion gone from bad to worse, resulting in the death of the occupants. Nobody has the right to kill another innocent being, and as such, everyone - Canadian, AMerican or whomever, has the right, the basic and natural right to self defense.
I really hope you think about this before you even consider replying with more characterizations of criminality. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/10/2008 3:27:24 PM |
How you feel and the reality are differen't
Where I lived that was reality. I'm sorry if your reality is different. I've lived many places I didn't carry a gun until I moved up north and incountered strange men grabbing my arm in mall parking lots just to talk or follow me home when I've been walking my dog just to talk.
Texans still take up for someone they don't even know where other parts of the country no one wants to get involved. Perhaps you live in that enviroment . It's a pity anyone has to.
Didn't know they were psychic in texas.
There could be some but even the crminals aren't as stupid as you would believe them to be. They do have some common sense when it comes to their own life.
Through the miracle of per capita comparison this doesn't matter.
Also consider who crosses into your country from its southern boarder legally and how Texas has people crossing their southern boarder illegally.
Thats neither here nor there.
If that is neither here nor there why do we have boarder control? Do you think they only look for the good people coming into the United States? Sorry but they also look for drugs. I've yet to see drug dealers and smugglers carrying bibles for protection. Not all illegal's coming into our country are the most desireable either. I don't believe any of them are trying to avoid a draft so we might have some what different illegals than Canada new back in the day when it was popular to go there and stay. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/10/2008 8:29:51 PM | hey addicted don't get me wrong i totally agree with shooting or killing someone if that was my last resort..but my first instinct would be to run and get out of their fast with my kids if i have the opportunity.
often criminals put children up to breaking into the homes as they can easily access small windows...if you have time to go for your gun you should have time enough to slip out an alternate door...but then again it's amazing in a moment of terror how irrationally we can respond to an intruder. (o; | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/10/2008 9:39:46 PM | This is one of hot button issues where people get to "sound" tough when they really aren't.
I'm a firearms owner and I would use them if my home was invaded and I thought my life or the lives of other were in danger.
I would more likely not get involved in a gun battle in my house as that would probably turn out badly for both parties.
I think that not enough really THINK about what's involved owning a firearm and it's care and use.I cringe every time I go somebody's home and I see an easily accessible firearm.
I also have seen many people using firearms for home defense that were too big for the task ,were improperly cleaned and maintained or had the wrong type of ammunition for the weapon they planned to use (No need for 12ga slugs for taking care of the odd burglar)
IMHO,if you know little about weapons,don't plan on taking care of the weapons or aren't willing to go to a rural area or gun range to practice, you shouldn't have a gun for home defense. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/10/2008 11:18:32 PM | I still believe that your home and lives should be protected under any circumstance. If you stab the robber in the back on the way out the door with your tv, that should be the price the thief chose.
In my opinion, every way of life does have a "occupational hazard". Every choice a person makes has a consequence.
Maybe you will get carpal tunnel syndrome for typing too much. Maybe you will get stomped by an elephant because you work at the zoo. Maybe you will will die from skydiving because you packed your chute drunk. Maybe you will get a STD because you have sex without protection. Maybe you will be paralized because you played a high risk game of sports. Maybe. Maybe you will get killed or stabbed or shot if you decide to illegally break into to another persons home.
You choose your own occupational hazard and your own consequences of such decisions. If your too F'ed up or too stupid to realize that choice, then that is all the more reason for you to be out of the gene pool.
There is no logical sense in defending the very people who go out to rob people. There is no way anyone should show tolerance or mercy to anyone that chooses to violate other humans in this fashion. The perp should have no rights, period. They are the ones who chose to do what they did and that is their own occupational hazard.
No person who defends themselves or their property should be charged with a crime, because without the criminal element in the first place they never would have committed a crime. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/11/2008 1:51:58 AM | Not sure..I would say to answer the op question..It would depend on each individual "case"..
I do not own a firearm so I am not sure what I would do until my home was invaded,I have always been concerned that my firearm would be taken from me & used against me..hence I do not own one..Alabama just passed our self-defense law 2 years ago also..
I hope some of you wanting to "blow heads off" please remember..some Alzheimers patients have been known to wander or even drive away from home & loved ones & get confused..if you can please make sure who you are shooting first.. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/11/2008 3:37:31 AM | In Canada we have quite a problem with home invasions for the purpose of theft. The perpetrators are usually young drug addicts hoping to find saleable items in the house so they can buy drugs to get their "fix". Although I agree from the home owner's point of view I should be allowed to kill such criminals, on the other hand.....; how many young people would die as a result? I once lived in a fairly respectable neighborhood where most of the parents both were working in a city half an hours drive away. Meanwhile a lot of their children outside of school hours were experimenting with drugs and other substances that pushers made (initially) freely available.... addiction followed. In truth the last thing most of these kids want is to meet anyone in the houses they break into who has a gun.
So what's the solution... I think that our youth should be given lots of instruction on the consequences of drug use, such as being killed invading a home, and be made wise enough to stay the hell away from the pushers. And as for the pushers, well there really is no penalty severe enough to compensate for the young lives they destroy.
If the remainder of potential invaders are murderers and/or rapists maybe the right to terminate them without legal consequence isn't a bad idea. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/11/2008 6:17:28 AM | hope some of you wanting to "blow heads off" please remember..some Alzheimers patients have been known to wander or even drive away from home & loved ones & get confused..if you can please make sure who you are shooting first...
- and cotton, I seriously hope nobody here has the hope of someday being in a situation where such an action of 'blowing' ones head off is neccessary. Most of us however are merely prepared to take action should we be threatened and bristle at the suggestions of some of your fellow countrymen, that we are in fact criminals or potential criminals for being prepared to take such an action.
as to the alzheimer's patient...any target has to be properly identified as a threat - unless that patient is shouting something about killing me or wielding a weapon, his/her likelyhood of being deleted is lessened. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/11/2008 6:53:37 AM | Cotton, I would think most Alzheimer's patients wouldnt be at your house trying to break in and rob you, being confused thinking its your home is one thing, someone breaking in for the purpose of robbing you is another.
cocytus, its not being " tough" when the safety of your family is a concern, laws nowadays are too whats the word im looking for??? well most of them don't make sense
The question was simple,kill a home invader. ... murder of self defense?
granted every case is different, some home invaders if confronted will run to avoid you, and some if confronted will attempt to do harm, because they might have a long criminal history and if caught will be looking at some hard time. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/11/2008 6:54:49 AM | ""In truth the last thing most of these kids want is to meet anyone in the houses they break into who has a gun.""
I'm sure no kid wants to meet anyone in a house with a gun, but, they are making that choice. Kids are kids, but when drugs have taken them over, they are not sweet innocents anymore- and will likely not think twice about shoving a knife into any person from the home they are robbing.
As for the Alzheimers people, the big difference is that they are not likely to smash a window to get into a home if they are just "lost". They are likely to try the door handle first .. and... I would hope anyone who is "trigger-happy" would also have their doors locked.
Also, coming from the country, I know if I ever break down on the road and have to approach a farmhouse, I will be LOUD... Making sure my presence is known, and they do not feel I am sneaking up on them... | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/11/2008 7:02:01 AM | Also, coming from the country, I know if I ever break down on the road and have to approach a farmhouse, I will be LOUD... Making sure my presence is known, and they do not feel I am sneaking up on them...
- coming from the city, I can't think of a better way to make my presence known than to rack a shell into my 12 GA. Nothing says ' you picked the wrong house' better than my trusty Mossberg! | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/11/2008 7:09:37 AM |
I really hope you think about this before you even consider replying with more characterizations of criminality.
Why don't you ask a cop is planting evidence is a crime?
Where I lived that was reality.
No, that's your opinion. And it's factually incorrect; you don't undserstand Texas self defense laws. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/11/2008 7:44:09 AM | | In the US the laws vary from state to state with Colorado being the most lenient state with respect to defending your home. In most states also you must have a carrying permit for mace or pepper spray. Please consult your local police department for that info. I'm not making a political statement just providing info. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/11/2008 1:07:41 PM |
You know, one of the reasons we have laws is because of the thug-bordering-oncriminal attitudes seen in this thread. A truly civil society would not need them.
I'm not clear why you guys are discussing the law when almost nobody here understands it. Can radioisotope production technique discussions be far behind?
As somebody who has had somebody break in with a rifle and talked him out of it (said I was squatting the house and was goinna rip it off, gave him a coffee then called 911 and he was taken away - I took a picture of him in cuffs just to add to the indignity) I'll tell you what any cop will tell you: a flabby middle aged man is no match for a drugged up 20 year old. Don't even bother trying.
Mahogany, with all due respect, you are making a fool out yourself. Look back at the nonsense in your posts for a moment. This mysterious criminal is going to meet Jesus while he's committing a crime? How does that work? Criminals go to heaven now? Are you on PCP? What about you're replacing Jesus for God or don't you honestly know the difference? Your tough talk trumps your logic & reason and the law will trump you on the tough talk because you're way outmanned and way outgunned.
Attitudes like yours is why I didn't contribute to this thread until now. I was sick of it from the last one full of bogus tough talk. You and people like you prove exactly what I talked about with people acting drunk with power in the other thread. See below:
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts8788040.aspx
Maybe I need to coin a phrase for them? Gunaholics? Guncentric? Drunkwithgunpower?
Some people just get this contact high when they touch a gun. For some it never wears off and its more of their own strength of character than their own character will ever have on its own. You are one of them.
I've twice walked in on criminals in my place. I've never had to kill one yet. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/11/2008 2:32:08 PM | To clarify about Alzheimer patients..please remember some become very aggressive..sometimes combative,eductae yourself about this,one might have a family member,friend etc..that will have this disease..it is confusing for many without knowledge of the disease,the stages..and how to maintain for all involved.
Finished now. | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/11/2008 11:53:35 PM | A little perspective:
IMHO, If one would like to minimize risk to himself or his family, he would do better to be vigilant regarding driving, depression, swimming pools and ladders. If one doesn't associate with criminals, or drink excessively, their risk of all death greatly is reduced.
1997 Alcohol related death rate seems to range from 6 to 9/100,000 depending on race (6.3 ave. for all) but this could be underestimated from what I've read.
It seems about a minimum of 10% of suicides are by handgun (about as many people kill themselves as others with handguns) and when these are combined with firearm accidents, handgun murder rates are far lower.
from http://www.anesi.com/accdeath.htm :
Homicide and "Legal intervention" account for 0.8% of US deaths, accidents 4%.
for 1999 accidental deaths by firearm: 1134
More than plane & Space travel: 1061
but less than:
Complications from medical procedures: 2928
choking: 3206
drowning: 3488
fire: 3741
Poison: 9510
Falls: 14986
MVA: 43649
from http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/statab/sec02.pdf
1996 US death rate per 100,000:
M.V. Accidents:
Cause of death White | Black
Male | Female | Male | Female
1990 95 97 | 1990 95 97 | 1990 95 97 | 1990 95 97
MV accidents 26.1 22.6 21.9 | 11.4 10.8 10.9 | 28.1 24.6 24.2 | 9.4 9.0 9.9
All other accidents . . 23.6 24.7 25.3 | 12.4 13.5 14.5 | 32.7 31.6 29.1 | 13.4 13.5 13.0
Suicide. . . . . . . . . . . . . 22.0 21.4 20.2 | 5.3 (NA) 4.9 | 12.0 (NA) 10.9 | 2.3 (NA) 1.9
Homicide . . . . . . . . . 9.0 (NA) 6.7 | 2.8 (NA) 2.3 | 69.2 56.3 47.1 | 13.5 (NA) 9.3
No. 136. Death Rates for Injury by Firearms, Sex, Race, and Age: 1997
yrs old:
Item | 5-14 | 15-24 | 25-34 | 35-44 | 45-54 | 55-64 | 65-74 | 75-84 | 85 +
MALE
Firearms:
White . . . . 1.8 24.8 23.1 19.5 19.0 20.1 23.9 36.1 49.3
Black . . . . . 3.9 119.9 84.0 39.5 25.8 19.0 19.0 15.4 (B)
Accidents:
White. . . . . 0.5 1.3 0.8 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 (B) (B)
Black. . . . . .0.7 2.5 (B) (B) (B) (B) (B) (B) (B)
Suicide:
White . . . . . 0.5 12.4 13.6 13.8 14.8 16.8 21.8 34.6 45.9
Black. . . . . . (B) 11.6 11.4 6.3 5.2 7.1 11.3 11.6 (B)
Homicide:
White . . . . . 0.7 10.8 8.5 5.1 3.6 2.6 1.4 0.8 (B)
Black. . . . . . 2.6 104.2 71.1 32.5 20.2 10.9 6.4 (B) (B)
FEMALE
Firearms:
White . . . . . 0.5 3.8 4.5 4.9 4.2 3.1 2.9 2.4 1.7
Black . . . . . 1.5 10.6 9.8 6.2 3.9 2.6 2.7 (B) (B)
Accidents:
White. . . . . .(B) (B) (B) (B) (B) (B) (B) (B) (B)
Black. . . . . . (B) (B) (B) (B) (B) (B) (B) (B) (B)
Suicide:
White . . . . . 0.1 1.8 2.4 3.1 2.9 2.4 2.2 1.7 0.8
Black. . . . . . (B) 1.3 1.2 (B) (B) (B) (B) (B) (B)
Homicide:
White . . . . . 0.3 1.8 1.9 1.6 1.1 0.7 0.7 0.6 (B)
Black. . . . . . 1.1 9.1 8.3 5.4 2.8 1.8 (B) (B) (B)
(B) Does not meet standard of reliability or precision.
 ' | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/12/2008 12:29:16 PM | I'm sure anyone could live with the "guilt" of killing an intruder if it meant saving their own loved ones. {"Intruders" could be more leary to break into a home IF they know they are "fair game".}
what is astounding is so many of you talking about guilt. no rational person would feel any guilt for killing a worthless piece of shyt that made the conscious choice to die by violating your home. do you own a fly swatter, or put out d-con when you have mice? they didn't try to harm you, but you have no problem killing them. there is NO difference. pesticide is pesticide regardless of the pest. that's just simple reality | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/12/2008 12:41:42 PM | IMHO,if you know little about weapons,don't plan on taking care of the weapons or aren't willing to go to a rural area or gun range to practice, you shouldn't have a gun for home defense.
you have a couple of good points, but you missed the most important one. if you are too chicken shyt to use it, you have no business with a gun. they call fools that try to scare burglars, or even just wound them, DEAD | |
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| Kill a home invader... murder or self defense?
Posted: 1/12/2008 12:50:36 PM | In Canada we have quite a problem with home invasions for the purpose of theft. The perpetrators are usually young drug addicts hoping to find saleable items in the house so they can buy drugs to get their "fix". Although I agree from the home owner's point of view I should be allowed to kill such criminals, on the other hand.....; how many young people would die as a result? I once lived in a fairly respectable neighborhood where most of the parents both were working in a city half an hours drive away. Meanwhile a lot of their children outside of school hours were experimenting with drugs and other substances that pushers made (initially) freely available.... addiction followed.
and? who made the choice to be an addict? i seriously doubt that anyone stuck the needle in their arm, or blew it up their nose for them. life is about choices, and you live and die with the choices you make. if you're so stupid that you choose to become a drug addict and break into houses to support it, you deserve to be dead | |
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